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9800 Pro a possibility now!

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January 21, 2004 12:44:01 AM

Those of you who helped me with deciding whether to get a 5700U or 9600XT new that I was pretty tight on budget. Anyway, now, after reading reviews and talking to the guys in the CPU forum, I have been recommended the AMD 2500+ 333FSB as opposed to the Intel 2.6Ghz 800FSB.

This allows me to spend $500AUD on a graphics card!

Alright, before, I wasn't sure, because I'm not familiar with AMD's, and how well they overclock, perform etc. But that doesn't really matter now. Because, gaming is mostly dependant on graphics cards. Business applications can even work well on PIII's, so the 2500 once overclocked will have no problems!

Now, I have 4 options for GPU's (ATi means built by ATi). ATi 128MB 9700 Pro for $469, ATi 128MB 9800 Pro 501.60, Gigacube 128MB 9800 Pro Extreme for $555 (aren't they meant to be cheap?) and HIS 128Mb 9800 Pro vivo for $499.

This is a very exciting day for me. i never dreamed that I could get a 9800 Pro. If there is a flaw in my logic, or a reason why anyone thinks that I should stick with Pentium 2.6Ghz 800FSB and the 9600XT (2.5ns), please tell me at the thread in the CPU section.

Well, I actually didn't post just to gloat. I actually have a few questions. Out of those 4, which do you recommend? I am looking for good overclocking potential (so fast mem would be good), and good warranty. Which has faster mem and better warranty, ATi or HIS? I'm guessing ATi has better quality right? What about fan noise?

I know that all of those (3 of them anyway) are very good cards. But I would like to get the best out of those. So, I would really appreciate it if you could help at all. Thanks!

EDIT: I noticed that a lot of Geforce FX cards have higher core speeds and mem speeds, whilst the same buswidth and pipelines, than the 9800 Pro, yet the Radeon still beats them many of the time. I understood when comparing the 5700U to the 9600XT, because the XT had a faster core, but this has just got me stumped. Any reasons why? The comparisons would be similar with an AMD instead of Intel right?

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Yangster on 01/20/04 09:49 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

More about : 9800 pro possibility

January 21, 2004 1:33:12 AM

do keep in mind overclock or no overclock. The P4 can kill 2500+ ANYDAY and twice on tuesdays, eyes closed with a plastic knife

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy
never tried to go crazy when it comes to o/cing. THE rule of thumb: 5mhz at once plz
January 21, 2004 1:47:33 AM

Really? I thought the 2600+ was like the equivalent of a 2.6Ghz... Isn't it? Then, shouldn't the 2500+ be only slightly worse?

I'll give you my situation now. If I am to overclock a P4 800FSB, I will have to get faster RAM, 3700 in fact for the RAM to sync. That means, no Sound card.

So, I have 2 options. P4 2.6Ghz 800FSB, 3700 RAM, 5.1 with onboard CODEC, Gigacube 9600XT (2.5ns). Or, AMD 2500+ 333FSB, 3200 RAM, 5.1 with onboard APU, 9800 Pro.

Now, here's my logic. AMD's are meant to be better at games and business applications. Pentiums better at content creation (ie DivX encoding and 3D rendering). Now, I very rarely use content creation, but I play lots of games nd regularly use word processing etc... This means the P4's lose their edge as a whole, right?

Now, on top of that, word processing, watching DVD's and movies, using Windows, etc... Now that, that can survive with CPU's much crapper than a 2500. And when it comes to games, isn't it correct that GPU's affect the performance a lot more than the CPU?

So, wouldn't a 2500 with a 9800 Pro kick a P4 2.6 with a 9600XT's ass when it comes to games? Or is the P4 so much better than the AMD that it even out weighs the difference between the GPU's? Or is my above logic flawed?

Gee, I hope I didn't get my hopes up for nothing...
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a b U Graphics card
January 21, 2004 1:58:36 AM

My top 2 gaming rigs are an 865pe/P4 2.6C and a NF2/XP2500+. In gaming benchmarks with the same video card, the P4 is quicker for sure, but also cost me about $90 more than the XP2500+ and mobo. It's not a huge difference for gaming. Ram costs will be the same in either setup. Overclocking the XP2500+ to an XP3200+, then the AMD rig is faster. The P4/iS7 will overclock well too with the right ram.

Anyway, either rig is nice. I like the IS7/2.6C better, the board has more features and it is faster for video editing too. But the XP2500+ is fun for overclocking and also a smart choice. But if games are all you care about, I would definately say the XP2500+ with a radeon 9800 Pro is better for games than the P4 - 2.6c with a 9600XT. I'll let others answer your video card questions, just wanted to comment on the CPU choices as I have systems based on both cpu's you mentioned, and am happy with both systems. For example, In 3DMark2001se, the P4 system manages to be about 600 points ahead of the AMD(without overclocking) with a Ti4200 in each, or 700 points with a Radeon 9500 pro in each. Not a huge difference in that test.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
a b U Graphics card
January 21, 2004 2:09:55 AM

About the sound card. The IS7 is a sweet mobo if you choose to go with one. I have built many gaming rigs on that board, but I have always put a Santa Cruz or Audigy 2 instead of the integrated sound. On my recommendation, A friend of mine built an IS7 rig and ended up having crappy sound from the IS7 integrated sound. There were hisses and noise heard over the speakers when he clicked his mouse; aweful sound issues. Turns out he isn't alone. He added an SBLive5.1 ($33 US) and all is well.

Anyway my point is if you go with the P4 2.6C, the IS7 is a great motherboard, but don't trust 100% that you can use the integrated sound. You may need a sound card, or just look into a different motherboard.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
January 21, 2004 2:10:43 AM

Actually, I care mostly about games, secondly about watching movies, thirdly about business applications. Video editing, is that like what you do with iMovie? No, I don't use it. So, would the 2500+ benefit me more?
a b U Graphics card
January 21, 2004 2:22:57 AM

Yes, Like you said, the XP2500+ with a Radeon 9800 pro is going to be a better gaming rig than the P4 with a radeon 9600XT. If ever you need more CPU power for games (Doom3???) you should be able to overclock the XP2500+ well. They are multiplier locked now, but for me that would not have mattered as I was able to just set the fsb to 200 and get it to XP3200+ specs. Not all chips will do that though, and the faster overclocking will only happen if you find an unlocked chip. If you can afford the P4 2.6C and a radeon 9800 Pro... great! But if buying the P4 will make you skimp on the video card, then go with the XP2500+. For a gaming rig get the better video card (9800 pro) and then decide which system you can afford with the money you have left. Not sure how your pricing is compared to ours, but right now if I were starting over building a gaming rig I'd buy a radeon 9800 Pro. They were too overpriced still back when I built my rig.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
a b U Graphics card
January 21, 2004 2:32:22 AM

Oh by the way, the P4 2.6C is still faster than the XP2600+ or even the 2700+/2800+ for the most part. And the XP2500+ overclocks better than the XP2600+. I'd say an XP2600+ is a little below a P4 2.4C. Depending on use of course. AMD's naming sceme no longer matches up to Intel once Intel introduced the 800 bus chips.

Sorry if i am discussing CPU's too much in the Graphics card forum. Thought I'd say that before getting yelled at.
Anyway, I'd be excited too if I could get a Radeon 9800 pro.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Pauldh on 01/20/04 11:35 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
a b U Graphics card
January 21, 2004 2:32:23 AM

I like ViVo on occassion, I'd go with the HIS card.

XP3200+ is about as fast as a P4 2.8C XP2500+ overclocks to 3200+ speed easily. I doubt you'd appreciate more speed. On the other hand, you would apreciate the extra power of the 9800 Pro!

Now, the nForce APU is a major feature of the MCP-T southbridge available on the nForce2. I'd recommend the Abit NF7-S as the best value motherboard to include the nForce APU.

And that nForce APU is better than the SB Live 5.1. So you save money because you don't buy a soundcard. Of course the IS7 offers 5.1 sound, but doesn't have a digital sound processor like the NF7-S.

So it looks like the XP2500+ and an NF7-S with the 9800 Pro is a win-win combination for you.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
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January 21, 2004 4:07:08 AM

I would say to get a PIV 2.4c and overclock it to 3ghz using the stock cooler, which it easily can do. Your system will fly. Having said that, I can see your point about affording a 9800pro if you get a 2500+. Still, it seems like a wimpy processor for such a brilliant gpu. The PIV 800fsbs are so nice.
a b U Graphics card
January 21, 2004 4:17:45 AM

The XP2500+ will overclock very high as well, they are BOTH the respective overclocking babies.

<b>Yangster</b>, the R9800 + AMD is the right choice. No point in paying extra just for a minimal diff. in CPU.

I would suggest the HIS as well, I personally like them, and yes VIVO is very nice. And then the ATI R9800PRo after that.

That's my two cents worth.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
January 21, 2004 4:45:22 AM

Can anyone tell me what the difference is between a Retail BBA 9800 Pro and an OEM BBA 9800 Pro? I see a fairly nice price difference but don't know what the retail comes with that the OEM does not aside from the box. Im told BBA cards have no game bundle so if not then what else is there that a retail version would include? Also what is HIS's and Saphire's warrenty like in comparison to ATI's?
January 21, 2004 9:39:24 AM

Alright, thanks a lot guys! About the 3200+ being only as good as the 2.8C... Is that overall? Considering that gaming has the most weight, then business, and almost never content creation, what would a 3200+ be like? Because the 3200+ sometimes beats the 3.2Ghz at gaming...

I see that if I OC the 2500+ to 200Mhz, it would be identical to the 3200+, just a little hotter :) . However, are my chances of reaching that good? What about with stock cooling? I heard that the heatsink and fan were really crappy, are they still like that?

Alright, last question about the CPU (Oh, BTW, someone asked. I can't afford both P4 and 9800 Pro. Well actually I can, but parents won't let me :) .). Anyways, I know the 2500 is quite a fair way behind the others (P4's), even in games. However, even if I don't overclock, you wouldn't really notice the difference right (keeping in mind I don't do content creation)? I mean, word processing, stuff like that... .5 seconds difference to load when you click it on the toolbar when 20 (yeah right) other word docs are running isn't gonna kill my parents or me right? Or is there a big difference in time? Like 5 seconds? Otherwise, according to my description, there wouldn't be anything that I usually use that would make the AMD noticeably slower right?

About the mobo, I haven't been able to find any Abit motherboards for AMD in the cheaper stores, which would mean it'd be pretty expensive. The cheapest store stopped stocking Asus A7N8X Deluxes for $170, replacing them with the E-Deluxes (with WiFi), but that's useless and $10 more expensive. I did find another Deluxe for $175 though.

I beg your pardon. I actually just checked with google, and
found the Abit for 159.00! Ha! However, it says v2.0, and I'm not sure if it's the same...

Also, it supports dual RAM. But, the FSB is only 400, whereas the RAM would be at 800... Which would be better for speed? Single RAM (1:1) or dual (1:2)? Pricing doesn't really matter. $1-2, maybe I could buy a cheeseburger.

Alright, onto the Graphics side of things. I don't really need vivo, I don't think. Reason being I don't even have a DVD player... So if anything, I'd be plugging the computer into my television! I did consider HIS, because it was a little cheaper, however everyone says ATi has better quality. On the other hand though, HIS is in Melbourne, whereas ATi in NSW... Hope AzzA can get it for me. I'll ask him after I've decided which one.

I haven't really looked as deeply for cheap prices as I did with the 9600XT, though that seemed a waste :( .

Anyway, I mainly want one that I can overclock well. I know that it's almost at its limits, so no big hopes, but I at least hope it'll exceed an unoverclocked 9800XT...

I do have another option. 9700 Pro. It has identical buswidth and pipelines, and not that far off. Although I could afford the 9800 Pro, if I could get the 9700 Pro overclocked to 9800 Pro or XT standard, and it'd last 2 years at least (1 year for 9600XT, but for such an expensive card, 2 years!), then I'd get the 9700 Pro. Unless of course the 9800 Pro has some cool but definitely useful feature the 9700 doesn't.

So, I need to find out about the memory speeds. ATi? HIS? Or even Gigacube? The Gigacube 9800 Pro Extreme costs $530, which came as a surprise. So I think its got a low mem timing. But then again, its already a good card... Why pay $30 more for a Gigacube?!

So, unless Gigacube's is really good, which has better mem out of the ATi and HIS? Hope they have better than 3.3, or I won't be able to overclock well. Not that it really matters heaps anyway. 9800 Pro is already the 2nd best Radeon card. Often better than nVidia's best too. Only slightly slower than the XT, but $200 cheaper!

Otherwise, what about the ATi 9700 Pro? What's its mem speed? Hopefully 2.8? Would I be able to get it to 9800Pro standards? What about if I overclocked the 9800 Pro, would that be a lot better than the 9700 Pro overclocked? Like how you can OC the 9600 Pro into an XT, but XT can go further?

I am so so so excited about this. Finally I am going to have a good graphics card. Finally!!! I currently have a 3 year old built in card. No idea what it's called since dad bought it. Really crappy, so I've take over buying computers :) . You know, the best cards my friends have is a Sparkle 256MB 5600 non ultra. 256! What a waste, and cheap mem. I am gonna have such a good laugh!

PS, I just found a HIS 128MB 9800 Pro TD (no vivo) for $450. That seems to be a really good choice. So unless I would benefit heaps from overclocking and ATi would overclock better. I mean, 9800 Pro is already so good slightly better overclocking isn't gonna make a helluva difference is it?

Otherwise, any quality reasons I should get the ATi? Oops, that came out wrong, not qualtiy reasons as in good reasons, but as in reasons about the quality? Also, according to THG, the HIS blocks a PCI slot... Do I need PCI slots?

The HIS is $50 cheaper, and also available in Melbourne. Saving me $15 freight, and also hassle during return. However, by getting an AMD, I wouldn't get Corsair 3700 RAM, or the 9600XT. And they were the only things AzzA could match! Gee, wish I could help him out by getting something from him at the same price... Hmm, doesn't seem likely unfortunately... Oh wait, idea! The Abit mobo is in some far place in Vic, about as far as AzzA... I'll see if he can get the mobo for me.

Alright, thanks guys and sorry for blabbing on for so long. As you can see, I'm a bit hyper from excitement and typing at 60 words a minute, too fast to think properly. Sorry. Anyway, I really appreciate your help. Thanks.

EDIT: Woah, I just had a look at my thread and it really is long. Really sorry about that. Anyway, I edited my post because I just had a really horrible thought. They still come with HL2 vouchers right? Someone please tell me they still come with HL2 vouchers?<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Yangster on 01/21/04 06:47 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
January 21, 2004 10:00:09 AM

wussy, I'm well aware the basic differences between retail and OEM seeing as I've told others the difference on many occasions. What I was asking was what are the specific things the BBA retail comes with as oppose to the OEM aside from the box. And since when does OEM have a reduced warrenty? I've never heard of that.

Yangster, There are two different HIS 9800 Pros. The one on Tom's site that takes up a PCI slot is the more expensive one from HIS called IceQ and isn't likly to be the one your seeing for the reduced price. However if it is the IceQ that you've found or you can find one, its probably one of the best overclockers among the different 9800 Pro cards due to the fan design. Also the IceQ is supposedly very quiet too.
Also I may be wrong but I don't think duel channel ram requires any faster then a 400mhz bus if you use 400mhz ram.
a b U Graphics card
January 21, 2004 10:58:52 AM

Doesn't the BB ATI retail have a 3 year warranty and most oem BB ATI's are offered with 1 year? I thought the contents of what you get in the 9800 Pro is the same oem or retail. Just longer warranty and a box.

I could be wrong on the warranty as maybe it depends where you buy the oem.

And no, HL2 is not packaged with the 9800 Pro, Just the 9600XT, 9800XT, AIW 9600 Pro.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
January 21, 2004 12:08:53 PM

My 2500 stock cooling managed around 50C temp fairly easy, if you try overclock it i think it will add another 10C more.

Asus's audio unit is identical to Abit ones so not big worry here. (that v2.0 just means the revision number for the board, higher the number the new the board is)

I think you confusing P4's 800FSB with AMD's 400FSB. I hope you didn't get the idea from the saleperson that dual channel give 2x the memory speed!!! All dual channel does is simply merge 2 memory channels to double the memory bandwidth. However it makes very little difference on athlon board unless you running them higher than 200.(intel is another story)

Most 2500 will have no problem reaching 3200 level and beyond, provided your ram can handle it. The OC potential differ from one to another, same goes for graphic card. Take OC as the extra salt on the bread. :wink:

Lastly, where did you found Built By ATi cards? I've never seen one in Australia. :frown:

PS. P4 is more picky in term of ram selection, they perform better with better ram. However in Australia those PC 3700+ rated ram cost a fortune and not easy to find...

Asus A7N8X Deluxe, Xp 2500+(3200+), 512MB RAM, Radeon 9500Pro
a b U Graphics card
January 21, 2004 4:21:05 PM

TOO MANY QUESTIONS!

OK, the A64 3200+ is often faster than the P4 3.2C. The XP3200+ is RARELY faster than the 3.2C, and overall better matched to the 2.8C in performance. The A64 gets its performance boost from the integrated memory controller, at a much higher price, with a much worse selection of boards.

So back to the XP3200+, the -Deluxe version of the Asus board has the same nForce APU, but probably (knowing Asus) fewer analog connections (if you need them).

Dual Channel helps the P4 a lot because of its Quad Data Rate CPU bus. It does little to help the XP's, but that's OK because they don't need that kind of bandwidth.

All these cards have Video Out, Video In on the HIS board is handy. My friend uses it for his analog camera. You can also connect a VCR to use as a tuner, getting tuner features through the VCR similar to what you'd get from a tuner card.

Checking with AzzA on the motherboard is a good idea, he just got one himself.

Oh, and version 2.0 simply means the board uses a newer version of the northbridge which officially supports 200MHz FSB. I never mentioned it before because Version 2.0 has been around so long that nearly all available boards are version 2.0, and version 2.0 is what you want anyway.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
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a b U Graphics card
January 21, 2004 5:52:22 PM

Yeah, like VIMP said the one that occupies two slots is the ICE q, and then you won't care about the PCI slot (heck you get a bunch of them) considering the better cooling solution.

The ICEQ is their top of the line, overclocks well, and is fairly quiet.

The regular HIS should be fine, and not take up an extra slot, and will likely be a good deal.

And yes I believe, based on the reviews I rememeber, that HIS is a 1 year warranty. ATI is a 3 year warranty. And I would say ATI warranty service is likely better, but being in OZ, heck I have no idea. I live in Canada and if need be could drive up to Thornhill and drop off my card during a visit to the Folks in Toronto. I would check with the local dist. to be sure.

Don't expect an ultra high OC for your CPU, but it is likely. Mainly push it slowly with that Retail cooler. The cooler is not GREAT but it should do you fine for a reasonable overclock. XP2700-2800 power should be relatively easy to hit.

As for the comparison, some games run better on AMd, some better on Intel. Some apps better on AMD, some on Intel. It has to do with their floating point strengths and extensions and such (well alot of things are involved, a list as long as my arm).

Hope that helps.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
January 21, 2004 10:01:13 PM

I managed to find the ATi cards at http://www.arc.com.au/, and yes, they aren't usually available in Australia.

No, I don't think I'd be getting the IceQ. So, the HIS has 1 year warranty? Is that a bit too little for such an expensive GPU? I'll check with AzzA to see if he can get the ATi, else, I won't get the ATi. Too much hassle if it screws up, have to send it to Sydney, then America, then back to Sydney, then to me. And all that freight I have to pay!

Alright, I'm a bit confused about the CPU and RAM thing. Are P4's like quad channel RAM or do they send information 4 times per cycle?

XP2700-2800 only? So, my chances of reaching 3200 with stock cooling is low? What's the highest voltage I should go to with just air cooling?

This is something I'm really worried about. Changing the multiplier isn't meant to affect how much FSB you can get right? Yet these guys only managed to get to 170Mhz (4MHz greater than stock) with multiplier raised to 12.5. So, if I don't raise the multiplier, should I expect a crappy overclock like that too?

So, since the motherboard is so cheap, I would have around $10 left if I get the ATi (or HIS vivo) and $60 if I got the HIS (no vivo). That would give me some money to buy a rear case fan, and for the HIS, better CPU coolers, or another CD drive.

Should I buy new HS and fans? Or are the stock OK? I know a fair bit depends on luck, but I really want to pass the 3200+ (2.2Ghz) mark, since 3200+ is only as good as 2.8C, and I was previously hoping to overclock a 2.6Ghz to 3.2Ghz.

Out of the HIS (not IceQ) and ATi, which would you say is a better overclocker? Would a reasonable overclock let me exceed the stock 9800XT?

Oh, I almost forgot. A while back, someone said that the AMD might not keep up with the GPU... Would it? Let's say that I only manage to overclock it to XP2800. It would still run fairly fast for if I wanted to do word processing, watch DVD's & movies, and occasionally compile stuff (programs, etc...), right?
a b U Graphics card
January 21, 2004 11:07:51 PM

Use the extra money and buy a nice Heatsink/fan. Bartons run cool so the AMD fan is pretty good, but if you want to aproach 2.2ghz (XP3200) speeds with a XP2500+, buy a nice heatsink. I especially like ones that you can adjust the RPM. My aero 7 is almost silent when I don't overclock, and keeps the cpu plenty cool when I crank up the rpm for overclocking. Also, I like Volcano 9's for the same reason but they are a little cheaper. Both are HUGE, and may not fit on every mobo. Tell the truth, I planned on overclocking all the time when i built the system. But I just love how quiet it is at stock speeds, and with a Ti4200 in it, I don't really see a need to overclock it while gaming.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
January 21, 2004 11:09:20 PM

I think your putting far to much emphasis on the cpu. On average you won't likly see any game or any other program run more then 5% faster with a P4 3.2ghz compared to a Athelon 2500+ 1.83ghz. And the videocard will diffenitly not be held back by a Athelon 2500+ by any means. Also if you overclock at all and it damages anything then you've voided your warrenty. I have an Athelon 2500+ and I don't intend to overclock it intill after the warrenty expires which is 3 years. Or intill I'm ready to upgrade anyways and don't care then if I damage it from OCing. I wouldn't suggest replacing the stock CPU fan though inless you really wanna overclock alot, and if your doing that you'd better hope you know what your doing.

Personnally I don't think overclocking is worth the risk. Your likly to only improve performance by maybe as much as 10-15% if you overclock everything significantly. Considering the risks of doing so I don't see the relatively small performance boost as being worth it inless money is not an issue at all.
January 21, 2004 11:10:46 PM

Wait, if you have a Ti4200 and don't need to overclock, amI going a bit overboard with the 9800 Pro?

Also, did you mean buy a good fan? Aren't heatsinks passive?

EDIT: I guess I'm having second thoughts now, after my initial high. How much would I benefit from getting a 9800 Pro instead of a 9600XT? I mean, how noticeable is AA and AF, and 80 FPS instead of 40? Worth $200 extra?

So you think the speed of the CPU really plays only a very small part in the speed difference of non games too? Then that's good. But am I over doing it with a 9800? It's almost as expensive as my LCD screen, and apart from the LCD, is the most expensive of the components. 1/4 of the total price actually...<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Yangster on 01/21/04 08:17 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
January 21, 2004 11:14:14 PM

Well, the Abit board has a CPU protection thing doesn't it? To stop the CPU overheating to levels that can damage it...

Oh, that reminds me. Do I have to clear the CMOS every time my FSB goes over?
January 21, 2004 11:17:58 PM

Quote:
do keep in mind overclock or no overclock. The P4 can kill 2500+ ANYDAY and twice on tuesdays, eyes closed with a plastic knife


your so full of sh1t. people are asking advice because they are spending their hard earned money. keep that in mind fcktard


sure, if he is compressing Mp3's and decoding video at the same time, the P4 will be quite a bit faster


but hes obviously a gamer. and AXP foating point is as good if not better than the P4. in windows XP , a 2500+ is much more than enough to accelerate things. besides , theres a 97% chance that 2500+ will reach 3200+. yea, i know the P4 can overclock too , but look at the price difference

its half the price, with 90% the performance.. and they are damned near equal if gaming is your thing.

-------


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January 21, 2004 11:18:12 PM

I believe you can do 1.7-1.8 volt on air cooling, however it varies between different CPUs.

Yes, chaning multi actually affect the FSB you get because there is a limit where the CPU may run stable at. If the multi is too high, the CPU will crumble before you hit your FSB limit, also i bet some of those weak OC are the result of using DDR333 or even DDR266 rated RAM or the Mobo doesnt support higher FSB than 166. :tongue:

There is no point ask others about which brand to get, unless you decide the most important factor in a product. Do you need the top quality? ATi is better here mainly due to longer warranty, however i am not sure if you get 3 years in Australia. Are you going to use the video in feature to watch TV or use video camera on it? Then HIS vivo is the way to go. If you want to save a bit then the standard HIS is good. One thing about HIS card is that they usually use infineon memory which usually result in lower OC than the Samsung ones. My 9500 has the 3.3ns infineon and it wouldn't go anything more than 15mhz over the stock. :frown:

If you want to make sure you reach 3200 and beyond, get a new HSF. Cheap option will be Volcano 7+, althought it is kinda noisy, you can opt for a bit more and get the Vantec Aeroflow which makes a cool noise. :tongue: Just a reminder, if you went for P4 route, even with 3.2 OC the AMD combo still spanks its ass in game. :evil: 

As for which brand will reach XT speed, i will place my bet on ATi because the likelyhood of better memory used. However you need to get the idea that OC is not something that the big boys want us to do, so take it as the extra salt on the bread. :smile:

Lastly, whoever said that AMD cpus couldnt keep up with graphic card is probably an Intel fanboy, tell them to use a P4 celeron and come back to express their opinion :wink: . For day to day application usage even 1G cpu can handle them, it is only when you run professional software or LARGE content creation then the extra power kicks in.

Asus A7N8X Deluxe, Xp 2500+(3200+), 512MB RAM, Radeon 9500Pro
a b U Graphics card
January 21, 2004 11:20:34 PM

I don't think you need to worry about an XP2500+ being too slow to keep up with a 9800 Pro. Yes, it could be a bottleneck measured in some benchmarks, no doubt. But while gaming I doubt you will see much of any difference. Yes under the best conditions you'd have a P4 3.2GHZ extreme edition and a Radeon 9800XT. But realistically, the Barton 2500+ is a nice bargain, and plenty fast without overclocking. But in reserve, you will be getting a very overclockable cpu. And it has already been determined that XP2500+/Radeon 9800 Pro is better than P4 2.6C/ radeon 9600XT, so if you can't afford to do a P4 2.6C/Radeon 9800 pro, what choices do you have? XP2500+/Radeon 9800 pro, Wait a while for prices to drop, or save more money for the P4. I hope you post back someday telling everyone how you love your new rig. G'luck.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
January 22, 2004 12:00:28 AM

a lot of p4 fanboys here, you might just wanna go to the bottom and look into it yourself using THG's hardware guides. you might just be surprised by what you find about about the quality of the amd's.
January 22, 2004 12:05:45 AM

Actually, I could afford a $4000 computer right now, but there's somewhere that you have to draw the line. And I've already drawn it. Around how long do you think it'll take the 9800 Pro's price to drop? I'm worried because some prices have actually started to rise, although it might be because of the Chinese New Year... supply is dropping. How long should I wait?

Here's the thing. I don't think I need vivo, so I'm not going to spend $50 extra on it. I guess I'll go with the HIS even though it's got worse warranty and memory. Reason being that it already kicks ass, and I should probably spend more money on fans so I can overclock the CPU more, so it doesn't bottleneck. Would overclocking it to 3200+ still bottleneck?

Everyone agree with my logic then? I just need to check with AzzA about the ATi warranty (if he can even get it that is). Because, I would really hate to have such an expensive card blow up on me 366 days after I get it.

Yeh, I'll post back as soon as I get the stuff and finish overclocking and testing and everything. I'll tell you how well I did :) .

Finally, you said that I might notice some difference in 'professional software'. That got me a little concerned. I sometimes use Mathematica, and my dad runs a programming business, creating Medical Imaging software. How much would they be affected? If it's not much, I'm not going to worry, because I'm surviving with a PIII.
a b U Graphics card
January 22, 2004 12:14:04 AM

The XP2500+ is a spare gaming machine for when friends come over. It is plenty fast for no FSAA/ANISO gaming. I don't overclock it often while gaming, because with a Ti4200, i don't think it would give me many fps at all, and I like to keep the system silent. A Radeon 9800 Pro is a great purchase for a Gamer and with that card maybe overclocking could make a little more difference. I seriously rarely overclock nowadays except to benchmark and see what the system can to while maintaining stability.


ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
January 22, 2004 12:18:08 AM

Quote:
It is plenty fast for no FSAA/ANISO gaming.

that is almost entirely dependant on the video card...

fsaa is completely dependant on video-memory bandwidth. ansio is also to some extent, but the effeciency of the GPU is usually what determines how fast it is. IE - my Radeon 8500 could render with the highest level of Ansio MUCH faster than my TI4200 at medium to low levels.

yes, i knnow the TI4200 isnt much of a better card, but its technically "half a generation ahead" meaning it was released after the GF3 which is what the 8500 was made to compete with. plus the GF4TI has more advanced memory compression

so yea, the CPU has like nothing to do with FSAA/Ansio


=_-

-------
SoDNighthawk - "Since my RJ45 is running at the 1 GHz level on my new Nvidia chipset it would take more then one hacker that's proly on a 10/100 switch to crack my P.C"
January 22, 2004 12:18:51 AM

I intend to use plenty of AA and AF, which is one of the reasons I wanted the 9800 Pro. An overclocked 2500+ wouldn't reduce the FPS by much (compared to the results obtained with a 3.2C) will it?

EDIT: So Phial, you mean my FPS won't be reduced much because I have an AMD isntead of P4? If I overclock my AMD to 200MHz, it wouldn't still bottleneck would it?

georgebeee: I thought that those results were in favour of the P4 because of PAT or configuration to make it perform better with Pentiums. That's what the guys at the CPU forum said anyway. They were pretty unhappy. Or are those fair results? Do AMD's really suck that much?<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Yangster on 01/21/04 09:22 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
a b U Graphics card
January 22, 2004 12:22:38 AM

OK, I decided to post this seperately because I fear we are getting you worked up and worried for no reason. All the choices you have mentioned both P4 & XP, and both Radeon 9800 pro and Radeon 9600XT, will make a nice gaming system. Of the 4 pieces of hardware in question (2 cpu, 2 GPU), the Radeon 9800 Pro will make the biggest difference while gaming. It is the only one of the 4 that will allow you to increase your resolution and FSAA/Aniso settings beyond the other choices you have mentioned.

So I say XP2500+ & Radeon 9800 Pro will do the best for the money you want to spend.

Can anyone else just quickly recommend for him what they would do? CPU/Video/and maybe mobo

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
January 22, 2004 12:23:54 AM

no, for the reasons i posted above.


the 9800pro/xt is the fastest card available today at both FSAA and Ansio (some people like nvidia ansio , some like ATI, but both are superb)

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SoDNighthawk - "Since my RJ45 is running at the 1 GHz level on my new Nvidia chipset it would take more then one hacker that's proly on a 10/100 switch to crack my P.C"
a b U Graphics card
January 22, 2004 12:26:52 AM

yes, I meant my XP2500+/Ti4200 combo is plenty fast. I wouldn't think to use FSAA/ANISO on a Ti4200. If I swapped in a Radeon 9800 Pro I would use it.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
January 22, 2004 12:27:46 AM

Phew!

Alright, this is the thing that I'm still a bit worried about. Someone said the AMD might still bottleneck in benchmarks. But would it still when running at 200MHz (400FSB)? AMD won't be lacking that much when running professional programs and content creation would it? I know I said I rarely use it, and I do. But that doesn't mean I never do or never will... So I'm a bit worried about that.

Thanks for your help.
January 22, 2004 12:29:21 AM

in regards to FSAA and Ansio, your FPS would reduce by the same percentage on both systems because the CPU doesnt handle those things



yea, the P4 is gonna be faster if you overclock it to 3ghz. in windows, sometimes noticeably faster. gaming? i doubt you would notice at all

you see games mostly depend on floating point operations (for geometry and AI , etc). the athlons strong point is its floating point, always has been.


if you have the money for the P4, go for it. it would be as fast as the overclocked 2500+, and for the occasional times when you end up encoding a video you would have the benifit of Hyper Threading which yea, does make quite a difference.

but dont sacrifice the 9800pro for a P4. its just not worth it

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SoDNighthawk - "Since my RJ45 is running at the 1 GHz level on my new Nvidia chipset it would take more then one hacker that's proly on a 10/100 switch to crack my P.C"
January 22, 2004 12:34:57 AM

Quote:
AMD won't be lacking that much when running professional programs and content creation would it?




dude, i have a 2000+, on a KT333 chipset



i can still uncommpress 400mb archived files in less than a minute (including time to copy to disk). any heavy loaded website with 10000 animations playing doesnt use 50% of my cpu either (which is content creation-like stuff)... really, my system feels zippy.

and im used to my 2.53ghz p4 work computer.



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SoDNighthawk - "Since my RJ45 is running at the 1 GHz level on my new Nvidia chipset it would take more then one hacker that's proly on a 10/100 switch to crack my P.C"
January 22, 2004 12:39:26 AM

hey man, do u own a P4 2.4Ghz or a 2500+ machine? I do and i have both of them. Benchmarks dont equal dipsh**. If u had personnal experience, u'll know P4 is clearly better then 2500+. Dont give me ur benchmark based opinions

Price difference? if get a 865PE board right now, you can get a prescott in the future, what can u get with nForce 2 right now? sure the prescott dont look like what they should be, but u know something called REVISIONS?


RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy
never tried to go crazy when it comes to o/cing. THE rule of thumb: 5mhz at once plz
a b U Graphics card
January 22, 2004 12:39:53 AM

About the Radeon 9800 pro price drop. I am wondering the same thing, and I can't predict here in the US what the price will drop to before they dissapear altogether. So no way can I tell you about your prices. I don't even know offhand what $500 AUD is compared to say $275(USA)for a retail ATI Radeon 9800 Pro. I am looking into a Radeon 9800 Pro myself. If it came with HL2 I would buy it now. But it doesn't. So not sure how low it will go. But to me it is the best high end deal out there now and there has never been a better time to buy a Radeon 9800 Pro here as they are $254 oem and $267 for a retail Built By ATI. I guarantee if they ever hit $200 like the non-pro, I'll buy one right away, as that will be the time they will go up or dissappear for good. I am struggling with this, and I have a Radeon 9500 pro already. If I NEEDED a card now, I'd grab a 9800 Pro today. But I hope to wait for the next generation to come out so I can see their performance and see what it does to 9800 pro/XT prices.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
a b U Graphics card
January 22, 2004 12:47:02 AM

"if you have the money for the P4, go for it. it would be as fast as the overclocked 2500+, and for the occasional times when you end up encoding a video you would have the benifit of Hyper Threading which yea, does make quite a difference.

but dont sacrifice the 9800pro for a P4. its just not worth it"

I own both a P4 2.6C and a XP2500+ and i consider and use the P4 as my personal gaming machine keeping the XP for overclocking fun and LAN Gaming. But I must say I totally agree with what you just wrote. Totally.

And I use the P4 for video editing too. Very sweet system for that.


ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
January 22, 2004 12:49:21 AM

i work on a P4 2.53 for 8 hours a day during the week

the programs i use (sometimes using up to 650m/ram when i gotta run area tests to check for outages) are quite stressful, so i know the systems limits quite well.. meaning i can tell when the system is gonna halt for 10 seconds beacuse what im doing is just too much for it


i havent run a single bench on my work computer. im just talking from how the systems feel. and no word of a lie, my 2000+ feels VERY close to the P4 for windows gui acceration stuff, like opening 1000 IE windows, having full screen flash animations at desktop resolution/color depth

no, my work computer doesnt have HT. but, the P4 2.53ghz isnt a slouch either

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<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>
a b U Graphics card
January 22, 2004 1:07:31 AM

"bottleneck in benchmarks"

There is most likely a bottleneck in every system, although minimal in the best matched ones. But only in benchmark scores will these slight bottlenecks be measureable... ie you won't at all see them in your daily use.


ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
a b U Graphics card
January 22, 2004 1:15:48 AM

<A HREF="http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20040106/index.html" target="_new">http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20040106/index.html&lt;/A>

Read this review, study the benchmark tables, compare your useage to what you see and determine what scores are most important to you. Then figure out how you want to spend your money.

Although he uses a FX5900U (?????) instead of a superior ATI Card :smile: , I think this is still very useful info for you.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
January 22, 2004 1:41:38 AM

Definitely go with AMD and 9800 Pro. While AMD's aren't currently as fast as Intel, the graphics card is really the deciding factor. If you benchmarked your two options the AMD with 9800 pro > Intel with 9600 XT

AMD Barton 2600+
Radeon 9500 (non pro) Softmodded to 9700 pro
512MB DDR Crucial
4500 3dmark 2003
a b U Graphics card
January 22, 2004 1:48:08 AM

Can you really mod a Radeon 9500 non pro to a radeon 9700 Pro? Back when I was looking into a 128MB Saphire 9500 non-pro, I thought the soft mod made it a Radeon 9700 non pro. Anyway just curious. I knew they were a good mod card, but that's beyond what I thought they could do.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
January 22, 2004 1:54:35 AM

Yeh, that's the one I looked at, but a lot of people are screaming out that the results are screwed up or something...

So that basically answers all my fears. Just need to decide on ATi or HIS, depending on availability here in Oz, and whether it has 3 year warranty.
January 22, 2004 2:54:49 AM

Oh, one thing I forgot. By getting a 9800 Pro, I would be getting Kingston 3200 RAM. The RAM timings aren't mentioned, so I'm assuming the CAS is 3. Some people say that you can reduce the timings... How? I don't plan to overclock the RAM much so would I be able to reduce the timings to CAS 2?

I heard that it's meant to help with speed and performance...

EDIT: I just found out that the NForce2 mobos don't have SATA built in, instead a PCI card is needed. I was wondering if this affects performance in any way at all?

Also, it doesn't seem to come with SATA cables. So I guess I'll have to get the Maxtor HDD, which according to THG comes with cables...<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Yangster on 01/22/04 01:19 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
January 22, 2004 5:22:36 AM

I assume you talking about Kingston value ram which is the one i am using. The timing for pc3200 is 8-3-3-3(CL3), while for pc2700 is 7-3-3-2.5(CL2.5). Those are just off top of my head, should be the stock value for them. By getting those ram, i recommend you not to lower the CL below its stock because it will VERY likely to froze your system, mine couldn't even boot into windows when i try to lower the CL timing.

Hmm...Asus A7N8X deluxe doesn't come with SATA? Thats weird, double check if the supplier is giving you the correct info, i suspect you are getting a A7N8X-X which is a stripped down version of Deluxe

Asus A7N8X Deluxe, Xp 2500+(3200+), 512MB RAM, Radeon 9500Pro
January 22, 2004 8:54:21 AM

Not Asus, the Abit NF7-S... Maybe they just didn't write it, in fact, they didn't say they included any cables... Any one know what cables they include?

I'm not sure if I should get it, because I have to pay freight for the Abit, it costs the same as the Asus A7N8X-E Duluxe (no non WiFi's left). The Asus seems to have more features, a comparison table can be found at: http://www20.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20030721/nfor...

There are a lot of things it has that I am not exactly sure on what it does, like WOL and WOM. However, it does have 4 external USB ports as opposed to Abit's 2, and 2 SATA cables (yes, now I know Abit has 1 too) instead of Abit's 1, and an extra IDE cable, for I don't know what. It also has a COM2 and Game port adapters as opposed to Abit's IDE-to-SATA adapter. It does better than the Abit in Audio/Video, and DX9, but slightly worse at DX8...

So, currently, I slightly leaning towards the Asus. Anyone have any reasons why the Abit is better? Like overclocking?

I am a little concerned about the content creation performance of the Abit. I just read the review at http://www20.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20030721/inde..., and it does a lot worse than the others... Also in Dx9 games... Just a little concerned about that.

I'm not too sure I want to spend much money on new fans. I mean, such little gain I don't think it's worth it. Or am I wrong?

Finally, I thought that people said the onboard APU even kicked Audigy2's ass, yet by the way you guys talk about it, it sounds like it's just, 'alright'. So, is it actually better?
a b U Graphics card
January 22, 2004 10:22:35 AM

Wow, I can't imagine people told you the onboard sound was better than an Audigy 2. No way would I agree. Better sound quality than a Live and equal to an Audigy sure I wouldn't argue, but not better than an Audigy 2.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9500 Pro, Santa Cruz, Antec 1000AMG, TruePower 430watt
!