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Best budget vid card

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March 7, 2004 12:52:35 AM

Ok well i was gona get a 9600xt but can't afford it anymore. Currently have a Radeon VE 32 megs (i think preformance wize its around the geforce 2 mx400). Anyway so want to know what would be the best budget vid card to get, really its bettwen the 9200 and fx 5200. Maybe if i get money for my birthday i'll be able to afford the 9600xt but not seeing it right now.

More about : budget vid card

March 7, 2004 1:29:38 AM

WAIT!!!
New cards very soon.
It would be really stupid to buy a card right now.
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March 7, 2004 10:13:18 AM

New cards release wouldn't do anything to the price of budget cards like ti4200.

And Ti4200 already running low on stock and when new card come out you can only find it on ebay. :tongue:

Asus A7N8X Deluxe, Xp 2500+(3200+), 512MB RAM, HIS Radeon 9500Pro
a b U Graphics card
March 7, 2004 10:21:14 AM

Yeah, I have to agree with ION on this one.

For the most part new low-end cards won't have much effect on the prices, and the R9200 is blown away by the GF4ti, and only the R9600 and above would challenge it IMO.

The release of the RV370 isn't until about june/july, so I wouldn't count on that, and likely it will still be more expensive initially than a GF4ti, and it's presence won't affect the GF4ti's price. Only if the RV370's performance is significantly better than the FX5200 series would I say there's anything worth waiting for. The price of the GF4ti is fairly low. Waiting for the R9600/Pro/XT to come down in price makes sense, but the R9200 and GF4ti won't change much IMO.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
March 7, 2004 6:45:18 PM

Well i look't for a ti 4200 but the ones i could find were expensive, might as well just get a 9600xt, they were around like 40$ cheaper then the 9600xt. Yea i might wait.
March 8, 2004 3:01:43 AM

Refurb 4200s are coming in at about $60 now.
the refurb 9600pros can sometimes be caught for $100.

Go for whatever shows up first for ya.
I dont think either is a better deal than the other, 4200 prob has more pure bang to buck ratio, but 9600pro is quite obviously a more advanced card.
But both are about to look like ripoff purchases with the new generation coming out (prob).
But cheap enough you wont feel bad. Either will last quite some time longer, ppl are simply overzealous about gfx cards.
Games are targeting the 4200 segment about now for the average card in use.

Well, smart game designers that is.
And the 9600 Pro is about on level with a 4200 in DX8. But you know this.

I bought a 128mb 4200 for about $90 shipped 3 or 4 months ago (price was NOT what I was quoted). and i dont feel bad about that price.
lotta bang for even $100 IMO.

I dont think you can beat either one of those for the prices i claimed.
Great 2nd video cards too.

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March 8, 2004 7:04:48 AM

If your really stapped for cash then a Geforce 4 Ti 4200 8X AGP is the go, pretty cheap and with your current rig you would certainly notice the diff.

Gary

....................
<font color=red>AMD 2700 XP<font color=red>
<font color=red>Gecube 9800 pro Extreme<font color=red>
<font color=blue>ASUS A7N8X deluxe<font color=blue>
<font color=blue>1024 meg Dual Channel DDR 3200<font color=blue>
....................
March 10, 2004 1:30:06 AM

Well like i said the only ti 4200 i can find cost an arm and a leg to get, might as well just buy a 9600xt and the ones which were cheapo were all refurbish, and i just don't trust that. I can get a Chaintech GeForce FX 5600XT Video Card / 128MB DDR / AGP 8X / TV Out & DVI for 153$ Canadian and the XFX nVidia GeForce FX 5600 Video Card / 256MB DDR / AGP 8X / TV Out & DVI is on sell for 149$ Canadian.
March 10, 2004 4:34:51 AM

This is a completely useless thing to post for you, but <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti..." target="_new">this card</A> was available at the price listed last week.. if you have video (as you apparantly do) maybe waiting a while and watching wouldnt hurt.
Otherwise 8xagp 128mb 4200s can be had for $80 right now on that site.
I dont know anything about canadian money tho or if they ship there.

I actually had the opportunity to purchase <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti..." target="_new">this</A> one but I was in the middle of sending in my 4200 (it was DOA and not refurb BTW).

Just some examples of what price range and what you should expect if you do go refurb.

If you cant wait, I think I'd go 4200 for $80 myself.

If you go for the $130 9600 Pro you might as well just spend the extra few $$ and get a 5900XT, then if you spend those few extra $$ you might as well spend the extra $30 to get a 9800 Pro (thats $199 with free shipping at gateway.com).

Honestly, my only pure unbiased advice would be to either go $80 and get yourself a 128mb 4200 from newegg, or go 9800 Pro for $200.
Only two things I'd spend $$ on now.
And the 9800 pro is going to drop further very soon with the new releases... so I'd have to lean towards the 4200 if you MUST buy now.
I go bang for buck, and those two are unquestioned champs (and only ones worth buying IMO).

Again I claim to no nothing about you canadians positions tho on these deals as far as shipping, financial conversion ect.

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March 10, 2004 3:50:11 PM

Thanks, but i can't order form neweggs, they dont ship to canada. Well i can ge tthe oem sapphire 9600XT for 223$ Canadian and 9800pro's are over 350$ here.
a b U Graphics card
March 10, 2004 5:54:49 PM

Oh you can get a much better deal on Radeons, they just appear from time to time and you need to keep your head up.

BTW, Future Shop was selling the R9800Pro for $299 a few weeks ago.
I posted it <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam..." target="_new">HERE</A> at the time.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
March 10, 2004 9:15:49 PM

Well, just found out the the reason will 3d studio max runs like crap on my pc is because of the vid card, so i guess i will have to upgrade fast.
a b U Graphics card
March 10, 2004 9:20:28 PM

Ah so the PM was useful info? I thought you were being sarcastic. :wink: And recommending a R9800 pro too. I'm impressed.
I was too late on a <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?descripti..." target="_new"> $51.75 R9600 Pro</A> yesterday.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
a b U Graphics card
March 10, 2004 9:52:47 PM

If you are using 3DSMax, then accept nothing less than an R9600 or an FX5600 (not SE for either). Anything less will likely give you slow performance. Even a GF4ti would be better than an FX5200.



- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
March 11, 2004 4:00:30 AM

Well I usually wouldnt recommend ATI due to their lackluster longterm support, as well as still generally less stable/compatible than NV drivers.

But in this case with the R9800Pro being $200, the card is down to what it is worth taking all things into consideration.

When I say driver support I mean longterm driver support, ATI seems to concentrate on the new cards and forgets about the newer ones.
This might be acceptable for some who upgrade all the time (those in this forum) but not for me.. it might end up in a legacy machine or a 2nd machine.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone to actually say ATI driver support (which includes longterm) is greater than NV.
Well, you might find someone to say it but its just not true.

If the price is right, ATI is worth considering.
Considering all the bugs, things being fixed then broken again and then later not fixed again... I hate shelling out $300 for the latest ATI for those reasons.

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March 11, 2004 4:04:01 PM

Quote:
When I say driver support I mean longterm driver support, ATI seems to concentrate on the new cards and forgets about the newer ones.


I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that by newer, you meant <b>older</b>. All companies are guilty of this at one time or another... even your precious nVidia. There are plenty of people that recommend staying away from the newest drivers if you have an aging card... on both sides.

As for long term support, exactly how long are companies expected to support old products? If your vid card is 5+ years old and it works great with the older drivers... why bother with new drivers? ATi states on their website that you should upgrade your drivers ONLY if you're having issues. If you're not having any issues and newer drivers won't offer any better performance, why fix what isn't broken?

<font color=red> If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it. </font color=red>
a b U Graphics card
March 11, 2004 4:13:10 PM

I really don't have anything bad to say about Nvidia or ATI's driver support. No neither are perfect. But still.

I still use an AIW 128 Pro on a daily basis without any issues. Matter of fact that computer is used more than any other one in our home. Obviously I do not play games on it. Sure ATI may have stopped releasing driver updates for this card 2 years ago, but the most recent one is DX8.1/ openGL compatible. That chipset has long since become useless for gaming, so no bug/fixes are needed. If they work why keep releasing new one.

So specifically what cards/chipsets/issues have ATI's driver support team been letting you down on? What do you need that can't be found <A HREF="http://www.ati.com/support/driver.html" target="_new"> HERE </A>?

Also, I just downloaded from ATI and installed drivers for an XPert 98@Play 8MB PCI card this past weekend because I reinstalled Win 98 for someone on their old ancient Gateway P5-75. I was pretty amazed they still offered drivers for the rage pro cards. Again, I see no need to argue about who has the best driver support for old cards, when both companies seems fine to me.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
March 11, 2004 9:16:43 PM

Well been able to get together 100$ so my parents will be paying the other half as my birthday present for a sapphire 9600xt for 223$ Canadian, but i can also get the Chaintech GeForce FX 5600XT for only 153.99$. Really i havent had any driver problems with my Radeon VE, but last year i did buy a Radeon 8500 LE and couldnt get it to run properly, had artifacts in all games and the system just ran slow, so i returned it. So bettwen those 2 cards which one do you guyd recommend the most?
a b U Graphics card
March 11, 2004 9:44:02 PM

Oh my, they aren't even close in performance. Don't be fooled by NVidia's XT suffix. The FX5600XT is a crippled 64-bit FX5600, unlike ATI who's 9600XT is the top of the line 9600. Buy the ATI 9600XT, that NVidia card is a joke.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
a b U Graphics card
March 11, 2004 9:55:07 PM

Well, my suggestion would be to go PRO, get the R9600PRO and save a bundle. The PRices you're quoting sound like those of NCIX.COM in Burnaby BC, they have the Sapphire R9600Pro for $199, but I have seen cheaper prices all over the place. $169 seems to be the current price at many places. Unfortunately some are Powercolor.

If you look around, and R9600Pro for $170 or so should be available in your region (as long as you're not isolated like RedDeer or Cranbrook or Something.


BTW, a plain jane R9600non-pro (not SE) would blow that FX5600XT out of the water, and they are selling for $142 on NCIX, and I've seen them for $129. But your best bet is a GOOD R9600PRO. If you want the temeprature moitoring and slightly better CORE (Low-K process) then the XT is the way to go, but it's usually a minimum increase of $30, and many of the PRO can OC to XT levels if you get the right kind (of course good XTs can overclock well beyond that.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
March 11, 2004 11:37:52 PM

Acctually i was going to order from tigerdirect.ca, you get free shipping on orders over 200$. Their 9600 np and pro are both 223$. For 23$ more then the pro from ncix i think i might as well just go with the XT. Plus i'll get free shipping.
March 12, 2004 2:01:50 PM

*tisk tisk tisk*
I see excuses!
Quote:
That chipset has long since become useless for gaming, so no bug/fixes are needed. If they work why keep releasing new one.


Point is, if you do find something that is subpar or broken.. fat chance getting them to release an update.

LOL, I can accept that you may not find it something ok to argue about.. but NV does have the best longterm support.
The whole broken, fixed, broken, fixed (or just never fixed) stuff with the newer drivers reminds me of days of old.

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a b U Graphics card
March 12, 2004 11:23:17 PM

But it is funny that the people who complain most on these forums about ATI's drivers are the people that don't own an ATI card and in some cases, never did. Same with long time support. How many problems have you found with older ATI cards that you couldn't find a fix for? or do you just enjoy bashing ATI? So why trash ATI for old card support then? Again, we have been through this before and I am most concerned with personal experience. I have sold or worked on loads of used systems even in recent months with older ATI cards. And no Kinney, not because I buy old hardware, but because I get old hardware as trades. Many people let me keep their old hardware when i upgrade there systems. Actually, I do this alot for friends and family as they save money and I reuse their old parts in cheap internet machines instead of charging labor for the upgrade. I'm just not quite sure what your personal beef is with ATI drivers and how they continue to let you down. If they are and I am not aware of it, I apologize and ask you share you problems and maybe there is an easy fix. But otherwise, it's just mindless bashing. Same with NVidia in my mind. I can't say I have noticed they are better or worse than ATI. They both simple haven't dissappointed me. Exactly what do you want to do with an ancient card that it's a driver issue that is stopping you? Or should they just continue to release newer drivers for no reason. Maybe help turn 2 fps into 2.5 fps. Yeah, that's worth their time. Both companies offer new driver updates for their Radeon/Gforce line. I really could care less if the latest drivers for the Rage Pro cards is from 2001. I see what you are saying, WHAT IF? But I really can't forsee what if happening; or at least it hasn't for me personally.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
a b U Graphics card
March 12, 2004 11:44:53 PM

And again, i currently have over 20 graphics cards in the house, why in the world would I use an AIW 128 pro every day, or have my son use a Radeon 32DDR if I had troubles with them? I'd swap cards in a minute if I found there was an issue that couldn't be solved. But the AIW has been awesome for me and since the only games played on this thing is tetris/solitaire/ or maybe elf bowling, I have no need to give up the TV tuner right now. I use that all the time. Every time I've upgraded or built a new main computer, the AIW has stayed put. That's probably 4 OS installs of Win 98, 98se, and twice XP, on 3 different mobo's, and it rocks on solid. Can't beat that.

And actually, I just upgraded my sons computer to a GF3, but ONLY for more FPS as I recently installed a few new games that i felt deserved high resolutions than the old radeon could give. The kid isn't 5 yet, and he is on his 3rd computer already. This one will stay for a while as it plays all his kiddy games well. (TBird 1.33/ GF3 / XP Home) And no, I didn't switch to NVidia because they are better, I would have rather put a radeon 8500le into it like I had in His Celeron 1.0GHZ system before swiping it for a build and sticking the 32MB Radeon in it. But I like to keep a wide variety of cards for future benchmarking/testing and I already have a couple radeon 8500le's in use here now. I had bought a bunch of PNY GF3's way back and wanted to keep one of them, so he gets it for now.


ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
March 13, 2004 12:00:23 PM

Holy smoley! You do alot of gabbin for a 'satisfied customer'.

If you dont think I'm right, then head over to Rage3D.
They may "work for you", which is entirely situational.. but that doenst mean all of the sudden their software support is equal, let alone superior to Nvidias.
If thats what your trying to say with those rants... Whateva!

Whateva= find me one credible site that says ATI software/driver support is superior to Nvidia and I'll be a bit more humble than I usually am.
Until then, EAT CAKE MY FRIEND!!!

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a b U Graphics card
March 13, 2004 5:37:17 PM

No, my friend, actually find where i claim it is superior. I claim it is fully adequate, just like NV's. All I care about is whether or not I have any issues. If they ever did let me down, I'll admit it and more importantly look to fix the issue. 99% of peoples issues are user based and they can't or don't bother fixing it, just complain instead, no matter what company it is. On the hardware side, yes ATI is currently far superior. All except you and a couple other fanboys can admit that. And yes I do get gabby explaining things, I'll admit. But that is better than shooting flames and fanboy attiturde :smile: like you do without really saying anything worth 2 cents.


ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
March 14, 2004 2:30:59 AM

yeah right! I'm short and to the point, thats the way to be IMO.

all killer, no filler!

Thing is, you didnt claim it was superior... but you are implying by saying that both are "adequate" that they are equal or better IMO.

"Adequate" is a very loose term. Heck, the microsoft default display drivers are adequate. :wink:

But the fact remains, no one can find a credible site or source that claims that ATI driver support (or software support in general) is equal or superior to NV.
Yet I can find you multiple sources saying that is true in NVs case.
#1 on top of my head is John Carmack, the "golden standard for drivers" comment.
I mean, the proof is in the pudding dude.

I would love to get into the hardware thing, as I think you are right and wrong at the same time. But I dont want to muddy up the convo with additional topics like going into hardware yet.
Lets get an admission that at very least there are, A) No credible source or site willing to state what I said above, or B) An admission that NV software support is superior out of you.
At least part A. If you cant do that then... well, fooey!

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March 14, 2004 2:34:20 AM

Yeah. Its like hypnosis.

NV....NV........NV...........NV.............MMMmmmmm Jen-Hsun in a speedo holding up NV30s.....

um, no. That isnt right.
LOL

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a b U Graphics card
March 14, 2004 3:34:59 AM

I'll stick with both are adequate. :lol:  Direct and to the point.

If you must have more:

NVidia has put way more time into driver cheats and special optimizations needed for their hardware to appear on the same level as ATI. I'll admit to that. Is that good enough for you?


Actually it is funny, because you imply I am saying superior when I have truly meant equally adequate and not worthy of discussion. Now once you make me think about it, I could say plenty more if you must have more. Man i get tired explaining things to you though. My sore fingers. I press on hoping that someday I can help steer you down the straight and narrow path. ie knock a little sense into you. Aren't you ever a little embarrassed how narrowminded you are or at least appear to be? or do you enjoy the attention. Anyway, you get the longest of my long posts because you amuse me. Even if I rarely see anything important come back from you, you at least are so persistently amusing.

Honestly, I am being truthful and don't feel it is worth searching for any links. Haven't googled it once. No real need to. But for you, who can't argue NV's performance, Image quality, DX compatibility, AA/AF, etc. etc etc, so at least you can try drivers. It's a mute issue in my opinion. Why bother, both are adequate. Well, hopefully NV works something out so they can move up to adequate for HL2. I think they'll do alright, especially with Valve dumping all that extra time into finding ways to run HL2 on there hardware. And the fact that it just worked so well on ATI hardware following true DX9 standards, and the huge delay is giveing them months to get it running for NV, you should end up adequate. And besides, given that NV fanboys like yourself will praise NV even if the game has to look a little worse to run well. I doubt that would bother you as just using NV hardware with NV drivers is far more rewarding than high fps, smooth gameplay, or great image quality. Or that AA/AF that is useless to you, yet those who can use it on ATI cards love it.

And again, i'll promise you that if/when i have an ATI driver issue, I'll let you know. But in the mean time, if you can help me get GTR2002 mod for F12002 racing to properly display car shadows in the swingman view on NVidia hardware, I'd love to know. I've tried every DET driver and the first FW driver, as well as loads of different cards on my boxes, and still at our last LAN party all 6 NV based systems had shadow issues annoying enough to make you turn off the shadows or play with the in dash view. Yes real racers use the in dash view, but my buddys are casual racers and GTR2002 has a steep learning curve as is, so many just need the swingman view to control the car. I like it to sometimes. Awesome racing sim if you haven't tried it. Looks awesome, well on ATi cards at least. Anyway, all my NV systems, and 2 other peoples, same issue. While my ATI Radeon 8500, 8500LE, and 9500 pro systems looked beautiful. Otherwise, NV drivers have been just fine for me.

Oh and i sure like the way some of them boost my 3dmark scores through the roof. I always use 4403's for 3dmark2001 when i compare my cards and systems. make me feel good that they are like 1000+ points higher than the newer ones. Of course then i have to switch to a newer one that is tweaked for 3dmark 2003. yeah it gets old, but as long as I stay consistent on versions I can compare my results. Funny thing is with ATI there is no need to do that. I almost always install the latest drivers with each build and run all my performace tests with the same version. Sure Cat 3.7 or 3.9 might give me 100 points, but no real biggy. Not like the roller coaster results i can get by switching NV drivers. :lol:  But I like Grapes Cat testings because if he finds huge gains in some areas with a new driver release, i'll switch. Otherwise I'll stick to the 4.1's that were just released prior to me buying this new card.


ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by pauldh on 03/14/04 00:49 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
March 14, 2004 1:12:21 PM

Quote:
I'll stick with both are adequate.

That is deservedly of ATIs efforts throughout the history of their company.
But NV certainly deserves more credit than "adequate".

Quote:
NVidia has put way more time into driver cheats and special optimizations needed for their hardware to appear on the same level as ATI. I'll admit to that. Is that good enough for you?

No I doubt that.
Comparing the complete history of ATI and history of NV driver support I'd wager ATI has more instances of fudging drivers than NV.
Not only because they are an older company either.. start from NV's birthdate and I'd still win.
Oh how quickly you forget Quack3, or the multitude of other issues over time that ATI has had to deal with.

There have, and still are IQ sacrifices in ATI drivers to speed up gameplay.. always will be.
I can look them up for you if you dont realize this.
The only reason you think this is because of the follower, "mob mentality" got you.
Some, or a collection of reviewers or critics said that whatever NV did rather recently was 'too much' IQ sacrifice.
Its merely a matter of opinion.
They both do it.

I dont mind my IQ appearing slightly fuzzier when I take a screen shot of a 200MPH FPS and zoom in 8X on it with Photoshop.
How many people really look at the minute details that most of the "hax" in question affect?

If anything, the many more graphical glitches that affect ATI gameplay is MUCH more noticable than some filtering fudging.
Check out the black BLOCKS of smoke in AOM (Age of Mythology) that hasnt been fixed for multiple ATI driver revisions, for instance.
Thats just one thing I came across with my 9800 Pro. Yet havent seen on a GF 5900 or GF4.

Quote:
But for you, who can't argue NV's performance, Image quality, DX compatibility, AA/AF, etc. etc etc, so at least you can try drivers. It's a mute issue in my opinion. Why bother, both are adequate.

Eh.. I think the issue described above is a driver issue and certainly pertains to many of the things you listed...
Drivers are incredibly high on the "must have" list for video cards... dont try to kid yourself.
Volari are another example of poor driver support.
Would you like to again attempt to say drivers are a "mute issue"?
I mean, where the heck did we get this guy??? Yes, I'm referring to you Paul.
This is ridiculous.

Quote:
Honestly, I am being truthful and don't feel it is worth searching for any links. Haven't googled it once.

And.. you wont find anyone saying it either.
So its you... versus the entire enthusiast community (OCP, Anand, Toms, Firingsquad).
For a reminder I'm referring to this-
<b>"no one can find a credible site or source that claims that ATI driver support (or software support in general) is equal or superior to NV."</b>

I said you wouldnt be able to do either of these-
<b>A)</b> Find a credible source or site willing to state what I said above,
or <b>B)</b> An admission that NV software support is superior out of you.

And neither are apparantly possible because you dont attribute major flaws in drivers with major games to be a part of driver quality (as illustrated above), drivers are a "mute issue".
Oops, did that come out wrong, cuz it sure sounds funny repeating what your claiming.

Quote:
Funny thing is with ATI there is no need to do that. I almost always install the latest drivers with each build and run all my performace tests with the same version. Sure Cat 3.7 or 3.9 might give me 100 points, but no real biggy. Not like the roller coaster results i can get by switching NV drivers.


Hah!!! Ya, this might be true for your ATI in rather recent history.
Do I have to cronologue the many poor driver releases from ATI?
I would say the 3.8s were poor. ATI essentially admitted they were poor by releasing the 3.9s quickly.
Broke COD in ways IIRC.

I mean get real, if you are going to stand on a podium and claim that ATI drivers are always better than earlier releases time will not only prove you wrong.. but history already has.

Your getting a bit overboisterous in ATIs defense.
Unfortunately, ATI has only been NEARING the gap between ATI and NV driver support.
They arent equal yet. And I was frankly disillusioned by their monthly cycle. Which was the mean reason I tried ATI again.
Overrated releases.

While you go on with this silly stuff that is quite illogical...I'll restate my rational standpoint with no claims like yours that "driver issues with games have nothing to do with drivers, its a mute point", or "you dont have to worry about ATI driver releases, unlike NV they are always better than the last"..

1. No one can find a credible site or source that claims that ATI driver support (or software support in general) is equal or superior to NV.

And I'll tell you the shocking, surprising truth as to why no one can do this for me...... *drumroll*..........
BECAUSE IT IS NOT TRUE!

Its fairly simple really.
Specific examples can be had for both NV and ATI all day like we have swapped recently... doesnt mean much.
Ask the authoritys who have earned recognized credibility from much of the community.
Do they like ATI and their speed and some other good things like their AA/AF? Yes. And so do I.

I mean, it comes down to preference and whats worked for you... I have no problem with that.

But the drivers are not on par or better than NV's.. no matter how you spin it.
And you wont find anyone credible saying that.

So I dont know why you cant just admit this, enjoy your ATI and go on... because its the cold hard truth.

----
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Support the terrorists, vote democrat
NV/AMD/IBM axis of evil team leader
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a b U Graphics card
March 15, 2004 4:28:27 AM

Just a few quick notes.

About ATI supporting older gamers, well FiringSquad (who you listed) likes that;

<A HREF="http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/catalyst_4.2/page12..." target="_new">http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/catalyst_4.2/page12...;/A>

[H] showing how the Forceware drivers still have alot of anomalies when the top of the line from both companies are placed side by side. Take a look at the driver part to start the review and see why the latest Forceware drivers available from Mfr partners won't ever be available from nV's own site. Minor R9800XT issue in FarCry, but let's not kid ourselves that they are the same as the FX forcing PS1.1 and the results that gives us. That's a DRIVER issue, whatever someone else might tell you.

<A HREF="http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTgw" target="_new">http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTgw&lt;/A>

Now you mention TOM's however his most recent comments in the R9600XT review (and that was of the Cat3.8) were rather good. So I don't know where you think TOM's/LARS states anything that negative, other than a few rendering issues, that were actually discounted and mostly rejected as actual issues (Aquamark seems to be a precision issue, but nothing being mis-rendered). As you can see by [H]'s review the same cannot be said of the nV situation. Personally I think both are on equal footing. nV HAD the edge, but now neither can claim to be in sole possesion of good drivers.

I'll gran't you the history, but in the present they are neck and neck. Who wins depends on the games you play IMO.

Personally I think this debate is boring and tired. Criticize XGI's drivers all you want, those suck, but the big boys have it pretty much under control with both sides having their technology/feature wins, and stability issues.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
March 15, 2004 5:18:43 AM

Wow dude. You make a damn good case!

I'm going to read the links and look everything over later. I'm going to take it all in and see if it changes my mind. I really mean that!
I like the way you get to the facts, the points, find credible sources and generally act really mature on the forum. I dont always, I know this... I'm just tired of the "dancin" around the issues and pretending like ATI doesnt, or hasnt had issues. I admit NV isnt perfect, I just say their support is better.
Stuff like "every CAT release is better than that last, unlike NV".. give me a break!! Those comments really burn me.
I want cold hard evidence not lies like that.
Though its near impossible to top Carmacks NV comment, I mean.. seriously the guy is Graphics God. BUT I wouldnt necessarily need an admission from a credible review site that ATI is equal or superior to admit they are within shootin' range of equality, as I said earlier.
You've presented IMO a very good response. I'm going to reconsider my POV and reply to you later on my thoughts.
I applaud you.

----
Reject religon, embrace Jesus
Support the terrorists, vote democrat
NV/AMD/IBM axis of evil team leader
RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOR
a b U Graphics card
March 15, 2004 10:56:48 PM

Quote:
Would you like to again attempt to say drivers are a "mute issue"?
I mean, where the heck did we get this guy??? Yes, I'm referring to you Paul.
This is ridiculous.

My oh my, Kinney. Must I continue to respond to your fiction and flamebait? Sorry, never said that. try hooked on phonics, it may help avoid embarrassments like in the "no reason to buy Intel" thread. care to go there??? :wink: Did I say <font color=red>drivers</font color=red> are a moot, or even mute :)  issue? No. But what I was refering to is the senseless argueing over which is better, which is just not worth the time. That is the moot issue.

If you want to warn somebody of a known driver issue, or make a newly discovered driver issue known so others can confirm whether or not they see the same problem, discussing drivers is a very valid issue. I highly encourage that. If you want to discourage buying a lesser known manufactures card because their drivers are failing in many games. Fine, that's good too. But this isn't the case for ATI or NV! But, Mindlessly trying to find issues about one companies drivers, for arguments sake, is a boneheaded issue. I just won't stoop to your level. ATI and NV have addequate, fine, good, almost great drivers. Neither are perfect.

SO yet again I say, tell me where ATI is letting you down with their driver support. Let me know the issues that are keeping you from enjoying a game. When you do, I and many others will be happy to help you. We might be able to get your issue solved very easily for you. I just recently posted to someone with COD crashes on their new R9800 Pro to avoid Cat 3.8 and Cat 3.9. Does that mean I just trashed ATI? Oh no! I better sell my 9800 Pro because COD crashes on Cat 3.8. Actually it means I easily and logically helped someone without making a big issue of it. Because it isn't a big issue. I love COD! Bouught it on release day. Fact for me is COD worked on my R9500 Pro opon first install with the drivers that were on my Win98 XP2400+ system at the time. Worked just fine with Cat 3.10 when I built the P4 gamer and moved over the R9500 Pro. Working now on the R9800 Pro. Man I should just hate ATI that 3.8 gave some folks crashes. Well, without 3.10, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3, maybe I would hate them. Fact is ATI has good driver support as does NV. Again, when i have an issue I'll post it. Please do the same or just move on.

As far as where you got me from. Um, I came out of the logic and reason mold, directly across from the fanboy flameboy mold you slithered out of. :smile: I care about Hardware, games, and technology. You care about stiring up flamewars and pressing rediculous issues.

I totally agree with Grape that this debate is boring and tired. That's why i said both are adequate. I see both as equal right now. Neither is perfect. As far as I'm concerned nothing more than that really needed to be said. When an issue arises lets discuss it. Pointing to the past for arguements sake... get real; grow up forum warrior.


ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
March 16, 2004 1:24:19 AM

So whats the opinion on the best value video card? My ATi 8500dv crapped out on me recently and I really need a new video card fast. I was looking for something for around $50-$100 range. Preferably less than $100. I would send the card back for warranty but that would take about two to three weeks and I need my computer now.

I was looking at the ATi's line and found many supplies to offer an "SE" at the end of the thing. I.E. 9200SE, 9600SE, etc. I was considering the 9600SE and was wondering what the performance level of it is. I haven't been keeping up with current cards and I am wondering does the SE mean something like the LE at the end of the 8500? Ther performance level of the 8500le wasn't much worse compare to the 8500 reg. So how does the 9600SE perform compared to a 9600 Pro and a ti4200. I was going to get a ti4200, but those are increasingly rare.

Can someone give me a good recommendation?

I need it mostly for work using Microsoft office suit and websurfing. The only games I might play are counterstrike and day of defeat, which require minimum power. The thing is I don't want to pay $40 for a geforce 4 mx when I could pay $70 for another card and get triple the performance. Thanks.

*BTW* for any of you that have an video card that has performace levels of at least a geforce 1 ddr and have absolutely no use for it, I'll offer $15 for it shipped. <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by lancerevolution7 on 03/15/04 10:29 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
March 16, 2004 1:29:06 AM

I'm simply saying that NV drivers are better, also their longterm support is better... I say this for the present as well as the past.

Thats it.
But I will likely be changing my outlook on ATI specifically once I get a chance to read Apes links.
BTW I come fromt the logic and reason mold as you have.. we are both Conservative Republicans, no?

Haha... now you really ARE cornered! :tongue:

----
Reject religon, embrace Jesus
Support the terrorists, vote democrat
NV/AMD/IBM axis of evil team leader
RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOR
March 16, 2004 2:30:19 AM

Quote:
Oh my, they aren't even close in performance. Don't be fooled by NVidia's XT suffix.



see what i mean ?


ill say it again: they should be sued

-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>
a b U Graphics card
March 16, 2004 10:32:18 AM

OK, I'll agree the past went to NV, however I think the present they are equal. That's my opinion.

and, yes you are 100% right with your BTW.



ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
a b U Graphics card
March 16, 2004 10:51:12 AM

Too bad your card died as you had a great card for your uses. I still buy 8500le's, especially refurbished ones, for some budget systems.

First, avoid the SE ATI cards. Unlike the LE, which was very close, the SE's are crippled versions now.

Ti4200's are getting harder to find. You can find refurbished ones for under $60 sometimes. That is hard to beat. Best place to check for new ones is pricewatch.com, refurbs is newegg.com

If you look new, you may want to think about a Radeon 9600 non-pro (not an se). They can be found under $100 and will offer you plenty of performance for your needs. But you will have a true DX9.0 card, so you'll get the visual benifets that come with that. Although it's yet to be seen how well that card will do once real DX9.0 games are the norm. Anyway, play farcry demo on a Ti4200 and then on a 9600 and you will see a difference in eye candy for sure. Yet I have not seen how the 9600 non-pro performs in that demo. A ti4200, however is faster for DX8 and older games. If priced the same, that's a toss which you prefer. Better DX8 perfromance, or a DX 9 card with good perfromance. 9600 is much better than FX5200, both DX9.


Real Radeon 9600 Pro's (not EZ models) are now $130. Refurbs are not hard to find for $100 or less. Again a real 9600 Pro is clocked 400/600 not 400/400. Big difference.

<A HREF="http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/over2003/index.html" target="_new">http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/over2003/index.html...;/A>

check this review and you'll see how the cards you know well, compare to the newer ones. Not many tests, but so many cards it is worth looking at.



ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
March 16, 2004 1:00:51 PM

Yea, I'm probably going to send the 8500DV back to ATi to be repaired. Their turnaround time is less than satisfactory though. It says on their site to please allow 10 days, which probably means business days so thats two weeks right there.

I was looking at the Ti4200 that you mention for refurbished and its the Abit one. That particular brand is problematic since I bought one and it crapped out on me on the first day i think. Reading on abit's forums, the failure rate on that card seems to be particularly high.

Looking at the prices and performance levels I'll probably go for a Geforce 2 ti or GTS for now since I'll only be using it temporarily.
a b U Graphics card
March 16, 2004 1:55:01 PM

I've used 4 Abit Ti4200's. 2 new 64MB 8X which were fine. 2 refurbished 128MB 8X, one which was bad when I got it. Nice thing about Abit, returning them is simple. They still offer preshipped cards, so you get the new one right away, and then return your bad one. The bad thing is none of these ABit Ti4200's came with good enough ram for Overclocking, so an Asus or Gainward tends to blow them away once you go the OC route.


What about searching newegg refurbs. 8500le's are much faster than GTS or GF2Ti and can be found for $40 refurbed. I've bought a couple GF3Ti200 64MB's for $39 in the past also. 8 or 9 of 10 seems fine. And they'll refund you $ on a bad one. You lose time and shipping though.

By the way, the refurb deals are updated daily and you have to be quick to grab the best deals. There was a 64MB Gainward Ti4200 for $53 one day. No DVI though.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
!