Do you believe in God?

I dont goto chruch. I feel that people goto chruch sometime get mean against other religns. Well people should have relign most wars over the time (ex. Mid-East, India) are about relign. If relign is starting wars then relign is not needed for world peace.

The only nice Intel guy.

Sorry are you saying that wars in India and Middle East are/were NOT religion based???

-* This Space For Rent *-
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Thx for the great link! I am sending it too all my religious friends.

<font color=red>There are only 2 types of hard drives. Ones that have crashed and ones that are about to.</font color=red>

Not that I believe in the idea of a god, but hey "What if god smoked canabus, hit the bong like some of us, drove a dye dyed microbus and subscribed to rolling stone, does he like pearl jam or the Stones?, and do you think he rolls his own up there in heaven on the throne?"

Somebody call Guinness. I'm about to go zero to drunk in <b>twenty dollars!</b>

I believe in God. I don't subscribe to any religions though. God is just a higher power to me. It's tough to explain the beauty and vastness of the universe in mortal terms.

I wasn't raised with religion, and as far as I can tell all that religion is good for is starting wars.

Crutch for the weak minded? I'm not sure about that. There are intelligent people who are relgious. I just think that at some point you have to walk away and realize that religion is just an excuss for things. In the old days I'm sure people wanted explainations for things that they couldn't explain back then. Today we have science. They needed morals and some kind of guidelines. Today we have laws.

I'm sure that a lot of the religious persons did exist. There isn't much doubt in my mind that mortal men existed such as Jesus and Mohamed etc, but if they were alive today I'm sure they would be thoroughly enraged at how people carry their names....

If we could go back in time you would most likely find that all those people were just great leaders, speakers, etc. I would probably equate them to Martin Luther King or Ghandi. No wars were waged in their name though....

<font color=red>Did you ever wonder WHY aliens only abduct idiots?</font color=red>

OK. I'll tell you what I believe, but only because you asked. So no one can get on my case OK? From this moment on (in this post) I am telling you what I believe and no one has to agree with me. -Sorry if this post gets too long, but it will take a good amount of words to explain what I believe, so you don't have to read it if you don't want to. OK? Fair enough.

I am a Christian, and a scientist both. I grew up on science, math, electronics, computers etc.. (I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, or Mormon) I believe that Christianity is a living breathing relationship with God. Not a religion, per say. It’s not about going to church, or doing any rituals, or even about doing good deeds. Although if you are a Christian you will do good to others. Because Jesus does good, and true Christians follow him.

As far as absolute truth is concerned... Yes I believe in absolute truth as well. 2+2=4, not 5, no matter how much you may want it to. So as far as <i>anything</i> is provable, I don't believe it is any harder to prove that there is a God, than it is to prove that you all exist. -Read below.

I must say that I think that many so-called Christians that I have met on this forum and on the Internet have been many times a disservice to the Christian faith and to the God of the Bible that they are supposed to represent. But, nevertheless, I sometimes meet one that knows and actually follows the teachings of Jesus the way he taught them.

I do not believe in going around and forcing my beliefs down everyone’s throat, and being arrogant, and ignorant. That is why this is the first time that I have mentioned anything about it.

I grew up believing in naturalistic reasons for the universes existence. But after studying the Bible all the way through (every last word multiple times) and looking at the world around me, and asking God, if he existed, to prove to me if He is real, I have now become convinced that He is the same guy that created everything that we see around us. And that He <i>is</i> a very loving God.

In the Bible (in Genesis) it makes it clear that the Earth was put under the authority of man; by God, and that man choose to bring evil into that world. God could have not given us the choice to do anything but what He wanted, and made us like robots, but he decided to give us the same abilities, to choose, as He possess (to a degree). Man then chose to do what was destructive, and brought these destructive forces into the physical universe, that he was given authority over. Thus sin was given birth. And that is why people die, kill, murder, steal, lie, etc.

Yes God did kill people as recorded in the Bible, but that was out of love for those He was protecting and for those He killed -strange as that may sound.

Sin is a disease of sorts. It does feel good for a while, but in the end it leads to death. If you do drugs, chances are you while die sooner than you would of. If you sleep around... same story. If you steal, lie, drive recklessly etc. same story. I'm not saying this to pass judgment on anyone who does these things, but just to point out that it's obvious that these things cause destruction. If you lie, yes, you may not die from it, but your girlfriend or parents, or friends will be emotionally hurt by you. And just look at all the things people do when they are hurt emotionally.

I have many other scientific reasons to believe in God. After studying DNA, physics, mathematics, biology etc. I have found thousands of things that defy being defined as chance. They show evidence of awesomely intelligent design. It would take me many pages to write even a small fraction of them down here, and I'm not sure how much of this you all want to hear, but I can direct you to a site that has is a very good example of what true Christians believe. If you would like to know more about us, click here <A HREF="http://www.reasons.org/" target="_new">http://www.reasons.org/</A> This site is by a brilliant Christian physicist, named Dr. Hugh Ross. He believes that science and the Bible are in agreement, and I urge you to try him out, seriously, and listen to what he says before making up your mind. He was a scientist/physicist for many years before deciding that Jesus really is real and that the Bible really is true. Listen to his reasons before you decide. He uses real scientific discoveries (from non-Christian and Christian scientists).

As far as whether I am "weak-minded" and "using religion as a crutch", or "mentally unstable" you will have to make up your own mind (click on <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=profile&mode=viewprofile&internal=1&username=Fa1c0n" target="_new">my profile</A> and view all my posts if that helps). Note: I admit to being slightly fanatical when it comes to disliking Microsoft

I don't take offence at people who believe differently than I do. And I don't try to force my beliefs on anyone. I hope that nothing that I have written here is taken personally in any negative way. I certainly don't mean to come across that way, and don't intend to talk religion with anyone unless they ask me to. That's my policy.

I do believe 100% that Jesus is the Son of God and God Himself. And that He created the universe that we see around us. If I said it any less strongly, I would not be honest about my beliefs. Jesus gets a bad rap, because people go around misrepresenting Him, and saying that sex is wrong and crap like that. And that He is mad at everyone. God created sex organs for goodness sake, with each and every nerve ending! And as far as God being angry: God is Love, not angry all the time. God even loves people who worship Satan! He just hates what they are doing, not the people themselves (He hates the Sin, but loves the sinner. Because sin kills and perverts the human race He created)! Satan wants to destroy the entire human race that God loves and created! The only reason God gets angry is when we do things that separate us from Him. He created us to be with Him, so that He would have someone to love. He gets angry when we are self-destructive! There is a point to the things He says not to do. He says, "Don't murder. Don't cheat on your wife, don't lie to each other, love each other, be nice to each other, give your life to Me instead, that's what I created you for after all"! I don't think that, that is a terrible belief system to have. I think it's pretty darn strait, don't you?

In the Old Testament part of the Bible (the part before Jesus died for us to pay the price for all our sins) God had no choice but to destroy those who would not follow Him, because He had not yet come in the human form of Jesus, to die in our place. Even in the Old Testament though, God would wait hundreds of years, and plead with the people to stop following the devil, and to follow Him (God) instead, (for their own sake, not because he has a selfish need to have followers) before he would finally destroy them. Even <i>THEN</i> He would be kind and let some survive, and He would poor out blessings on those who were left. And let’s not forget what these people He killed were doing! They were sacrificing their sons and daughters to demons as human sacrifices and stuff like that! He wasn't upset for no reason. And he would still wait a loooong time before destroying them. If he had let them live, then more and more people would have started acting like them until there were no people left on the Earth. They would all have annihilated each other. Sin is a disease. It can only be stopped by death. God keeps it in check in hopes that we will choose Him.

<font color=blue>God does not want people to go to Hell. He just won't force us to go to Heaven.</font color=blue>

God gave us a choice because that is the only fair thing to do. And it means nothing to Him if we love Him because he made us love Him. He wants us to choose Him.

He died for us in our place! So that we could be with Him in paradise FOREVER!

Does that sound like such a bad God??!!

And Heaven isn't just harps and clouds people! It is just like the Earth only PERFECT. And with lots of additions and abilities that we never had before. It's better than anything you can dream of in you best dream, times infinity. No pain. No need to eat. No lies. No death. Never get tired again. Know everything you always wanted to know, and always have new things to learn, and never forget another thing. Yes you can be with your wife there, yes you will have LOTS of fun there! You will NEVER be bored.

Hell is also FOREVER! And it's a lot worse than anything you have ever conceived of in your worst nightmare, times infinity. Eternal death with no way out. Burning and burning, and burning. And no, it isn't worth it to go there even if all your friends go there. And yes, you will be very -terminally- bored there.

And like I said, God came here, was born as a human baby, and was crucified on a cross, so that you wouldn't have to go there, and then rose back to life (I do mean physically) three days later. He won't force you to accept His salvation though. You have to choose it. He did not have sex with anyone in order to be born as a baby -in case you were wondering. He just supernaturally caused the egg to start dividing inside the womb of a young woman named Mary, about 2000 years ago. The baby was born and one of God's angels was sent from God to tell her to name Him Jesus (the name Jesus means: <font color=red>"The Lord Saves"</font color=red> look at the Bible in the book of Luke chapter 1 verse 31). And, finally, Yes I believe that believing in Jesus, as who He said He is, and accepting the sacrifice He made of His own life for your life, and giving your life to Him with complete trust and obeying, and following Him, is the ONLY way to be saved. He is the ONLY person to ever die and come back to life (very well documented). He is the only person that has power over death. So He is the <i>only person who can save you</i>. He is God, and there is NO other.

Ok. There you have it. A small portion of what I believe.

Those of you who know me here on Tom's Hardware know that I am not a freak, I'm helpful and that I don't harass people. So I hope you will give me some respect.

-Take care


<b><font color=green> Have a day </font color=green></b>

No.

If there is, then He must have a very warped sense of humor. In the history of man, what is the major cause of war (and death)? Organized religion. Based on the belief of a powerful deity. More people throughout history have been slaughtered in the name of a God, who is all knowing, loving, and so on. Just not caring, or he gets a kick out of the pain and suffering on Earth.

What is worse then a religious fanatic (of any religion)? Nothing. They will quote the Bible and base their life on the "teachings" of this book. Which was written by man (and can be interpreted to mean what any individual wants it to mean). Not God. Where is the proof that the Bible is from God? There is none, only the FAITH that the religious fanatics have. The Son of Sam had FAITH as well (as he killed and maimed so many). But he is just as misguided as my religious neighbor who will never miss church on Sunday for fear of going to Hell, who won't allow her son to come into my house because we decorate for Halloween, or who had the President of the PTA fired because she had a personal disagreement with him.

I refuse to acknowledge a God who will condem a soul to eternal Hell because that soul did not believe in God, or have knowledge of God. Will the Tribal people of Africa, who have never heard of Jesus, be doomed to an eternity in Hell because they have not taken Jesus into their heart? You bet they are, so says the fanatic. That is why we must send missionaries to teach them the "truth". I can be the salt of the earth, a great family man, raise my children well, never steal or hurt anyone, yet I will go to Hell if I don't take Jesus into my heart. But if I were to murder, rape, steal, and torture others, on my dying day if I accept the Lord Jesus, then I will go to Heaven. Give me a break!

Here is a great book to read about God and Satan. It explains why religious beliefs are so wacky. If you are deeply religious, then don't read this book. It will offend you. The story is of the coming of "The Rapture", and all good people rise to Heaven. All others go to Hell. It is told through the eyes of a priest, who is not so priestly. Turns out that Heaven is not the place to be. You see, of all the Gods in creation, our God is insane, the only God who requires his creations to worship him (or else). Those going to Heaven were not in for a good time. Those banished to Hell were the lucky ones, being with caring deities that were banished by the insane God. In the end, our God goes on trial by a jury of his peers.

The name of this book is "Job: A Comedy of Justice" by the science fiction writer Robert Heinlein (who must be burning in Hell).

So, no, I do not believe in God as modern religion would like me to, or as the Bible would. I do believe in the human spirit, and believe that there is a lot more to us then just the physical body we have. But not based on any external Deity, it is all from within the individual.

Having said all that, I now accept my place in eternal Hell.

Won't even mention the Televangelists, spreading the word of God through television, and selling God's "products" to the believers. About 15 years ago, Oral Roberts claimed if he did not raise 8 million dollars from his believers, that God would take him from earth. Somehow he raised 15 million in the alloted time, and so the Lord allowed him to remain on Earth. Too bad. All the stories of Priests molesting young children, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Bakker (PTL club), Robert Tilton and all the others. Yes, if there is a God, he has some warped sense of humor.

I apologize if I have offended anyone.

<font color=blue>This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.</font color=blue>

I don't believe in beatles, I believe in me.

My Jesus is whiter than your Jesus.

Have you ever taken an Anthropology or Biology class at a University?

<font color=red>Did you ever wonder WHY aliens only abduct idiots?</font color=red>

Even if you don't want to go back and take a class or two, you should go to your local museums and animal parks. There are plenty of examples of animals that will amaze you. Maybe you haven't seen a penguin or an ostrich, but those are both birds that do not fly. Maybe you've never heard of the chicken either. Chicken run would be a great movie for you to see. I'm just messing around with you, but I'm just shocked by your views.

<font color=red>Did you ever wonder WHY aliens only abduct idiots?</font color=red>

As always I did not make myself clear. I do believe in evolution. I do not believe random evolution can explain everything. I have heard of chickens.

As readers of Tom's hardware I assume many of you have done some programming. If you have ever done anything big you know that it starts out as something small. Many small subroutines come together into a larger whole. If the project takes time or is used over time, parts of the program may be changed or improved. When I look at a complicated computer program it reminds me of DNA. Junk DNA is like those rem'ed out lines of old code you don't need anymore but you keep around just in case. When bio people talk about DNA and bio evolution I see a parallel in programming. While a large program does evolve, it does not evolve without help. You can write a program to learn or evolve but such a program does not write itself.

My parents did send me to school and I do read a little. I confess that I have never taken biology past high school. Did have college chemistry and physics. If a ball is on the side of a hill it will seek a position with the lowest potential energy, meaning it will roll down hill. Funny thing about balls is that they always try to achieve a state of lowest energy (they always roll down hill) unless there is a big old up hill part between the current position and the spot with the lowest energy. When this happens they get stuck in a relative minimum but never achieve absolute minimum. Now lets go back to the bird. In my opinion birds are on the other side of one of these hills and cannot get from flightless to flying without a push. I think maybe some of the flightless birds may have “de-volved” and lost the ability to fly or were just made that way.

While I’m spouting opinions I believe we are in big trouble because dumb people breed like rabbits and smart people know how to use birth control so we are eventually going to be a race of idiots.

I also don't believe in God. In fact, I think the Christian religion is one of the evilest institutions on the planet. Now don't get me wrong, most religious people are good, decent people. It's the church which is the evil empire. Just read your history book and the proof is right there.

My thoughts on why Christianity is around is because of that evilness. Torture, brainwashing, and murder and the 3 reasons why people are religious to this day. Crusades, Spanish Inquisition anyone? It's just sick. Sure there are the occasional few who become religious on there own, but 99.9999% of religious people are that way because they grew up in a religious home enviornment. Not to mention that the majority of the population is not extremely intelligent, there is further ways that suggestion and conditioning can force a religious lifestyle on people. I mean, when was the last time you heard of a married genius couple having 7 kids? It doesn't happen. I think the average family size of above intelligent people is like half that of the national average.

To me it is absolutely dumbfounding why some people read the bible and see it as truth. It is actually very sad. The bible is filled with the most sick and horrid things, but it is there for a reason. I mean, there are more "obey or go to hell" sayings in the bible (old testament more so) than anything else, and that is, or was, there to scare the weak and poor into submission. But, to keep them submissed you got to have the New Testament which is a gentler side of the bible. I mean, the tales of the bible are not tales of truth, they are stories meant to frighten the masses into submission. And when they are submissed, you gotta appease them somehow by telling them they will eventually go to heaven or else they might get restless.

I'm sure I'm jumping around a lot and may be a bit confusing, but I don't like proofreading my messages So, as I was saying... The bible is akin to the Iliad. I see it as events that may have happened in real life were changed around and had things added to make them seem like they were truly a part of something larger. Like in the Iliad, the Trojan War really took place, but did it really take place the way that story said? I think not. Just like the bible. Soddam and Gomorrah may have really been destroyed, but were they destroyed in the way the bible said? I think not. Such statements go on and on and can be used for almost everything in the bible. Like the great flood. A new theory I watched/read about states that the great flood in the bible is probably inspired from the true story of the formation of the Black Sea, or atleast I think it was the black sea. I won't state everything here, but I'm sure if your curious you can do a google search or something to come up with information.

In terms of why religion is around is pure power. Religion forced people to follow these institutions and obey them at whatever cost. Religion gave the leaders power to control more land and more people. I mean, this all refers to the past, and not quite as much today. It's all about money and power. One thing that ticks me off is what the church now does with this money and power... NOTHING! They use it to spread their feces even further across the planet. I mean, the church recently approved the construction of a $180 million cathedral. Ya, [-peep-] finding the cure for cancer or aids, [-peep-] helping starving people out, [-peep-] building hospitals, [-peep-] everyone but getting more cronies to follow and give more money. It's absolutely sickening.

Well I don't want to blabber on any more, so there you have my 2 cents.

"Trying is the first step towards failure."

"Why are there so many sects"?

Most of the time, probably because the people in the organized religion frame of mind have their attention on the things that don't matter. It can also be because those who are true Christians, and want to have just a simple relationship with God, get fed-up with the organized religion tyrants dictating to them how they can and cannot worship God, and oppressing the common man. So the ones who want to be free, leave and start a new denomination/sect. Unfortunately human nature is to take something simple and make it into an organized, dead, ritualistic, set of man-made rules. So the new sect tends to deteriorate over time until it becomes as bad as the sect that it split off from; and the cycle goes on and on.

It is not necessarily an unhealthy cycle though. All things in life have a cycle. Just like trees grow, drop seeds, and then die, so the Christian church tends to be also. Nations also have this cycle. It applies to a lot of things.

"How is Jesus the son of God and God himself"?

Because He isn't bound by the natural laws of space and time that we are. He is infinite, therefore He can be in two or more places at once. He had to come and experience what we experience and suffer the way we do, in order to qualify as someone that could save us. God chooses to follow His own moral laws. He is a God of order.

"Wasn't the Bible in the early years passed down by the word of mouth? Doesn't it reduce its credibility"?

It's true that many of the books, such as Genesis were not written down until thousands of years later (The Genesis account was written by Moses). Many other <i>were</i> written down right away though (i.e. Old Testament prophets, and New Testament books). After being written down the Old Testament books were rigorously guarded against errors by the Jewish scribes. They would write it out and then the scroll would be critiqued by other scribes who would compare it to the original. They knew the exact number of letters also. If even one error was found, the entire scroll would be destroyed and the scribe would start again.

As far as credibility, the Bible is far more verified and scrutinized than any other book. Any ancient book is difficult to prove, accuracy-wise, but the Bible is more proven than any other ancient book. There is also tons (literally) of archeological evidence to support the Bible historically. This is not the case with the book of Mormon (absolutely no physical evidence for the book of Mormon). And the Jehovah's witnesses had their bible re-written by a cult leader who couldn't even read or write one letter of Greek or Hebrew. I'm not saying this to attack the people who belong to those religions. I'm just pointing out the scientific evidence. I am a scientist. I believe what is in harmony with the evidence, and what works.

<font color=blue>Faith is not believing without evidence. Faith is believing all the evidence.</font color=blue>

It still takes faith to believe anything, even proven things. It takes faith to get on an airplane, when you have not actually been on one before. Even though you know it works. I can tell a person that the sky is blue, and you can see it for yourself, but you can still choose to deny it if you want.

The true test of credibility in my opinion though, would be to compare all of the places in the Bible that discuss a scientific statement (such as the Genesis account of creation), with what is known from current scientific findings, and then look for contradictions.

A good scientific study of Genesis from a scientist's standpoint, is the book <A HREF="http://store.reasons.org/cgi-bin/webc.exe/st_prod.html?p_prodid=96&sid=1f3RQFao" target="_new">"The Genesis Question"</A> by Dr. Hugh Ross. You can order it at <A HREF="http://www.reasons.org" target="_new">http://www.reasons.org</A>.

In general response to some of the other posts:

Yes, I agree that organized religion is probably the world's most evil force.

It was organized religion that was Jesus' greatest enemy when He walked the Earth. It was organized religious leaders that crucified Him. I was organized religion that called Him "demon-possessed" when he would heal people and when He was nice to tax collectors and prostitutes. Jesus was better friends with them than with the organized religion people. Organized religion is still the current enemy of any true Christian! I think Jesus would agree that organized religion sucks! It is an instrument of Satan that causes people to turn away from God, when all he wants is to love us! God HATES organized religion. Jesus called the organized religious leaders "Son's of the devil". He hates it when people call themselves "Christians" and then go and start wars in His name, saying that God told them to do it! The only "organized religion" that God wants is for us to come to Him and lead others to Him to be set free. The only "organized religion" that God wants is that which He has "organized" Himself (i.e. Loving people), <i>not</i> the organizations of man, where man dictates things to gain power over others.

It's saddening to me that people think that God is responsible for all the conquests and crusades, and religious wars that have been fought.

Last time I checked, when I am a jerk, it's my <i>OWN</i> fault, not God's.

God didn't tell those people to kill in His name. They just used His name to make it sound like what they were doing was justified. They will answer to Him when Judgment Day comes.

God is a LOVING God! He HATES suffering. He HATES death! The only time He destroys is as a last resort!

There are two very different groups of people in the world who both call themselves "Christian". One is from God and the other is an organization of Satan, with a mission to make people hate Christians. It can get very confusing. As one person said above, there are good people in organized religion. It's those in charge of the organization that have dark motives. so you can't just lump all Christians together. There are those who are true and those who are false. You can tell who the real ones are because of how they love people and don't try to control their lives. These are the ones who follow Jesus. Just a note: It would help to know what Jesus taught; I suggest that you read the Bible books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

The Bible says that God is patient with us, not wanting anyone to perish, but all to be saved. -2Peter 3:9

Also, I think it might help to say that I rarely "go to church". I have a few different reasons. One, many churches don't like me much. I have long hair in a ponytail and look/dress like a hacker, and I spend lots of time making friends with satanists, witches, druggies, sluts, and faggs, and telling them how much God loves them. Most churches don't like those kind of people, but Jesus loves them (note: I am not a satanist, witch, druggy, slut, or fagg. But I can still be nice to them. Jesus spent most of His time with those kind of people). I don’t act like I’m better than them. Another reason that I don't often "go to church" is that I don't agree with the phrase "going to church". The Church is not a building that you have to go to on Sunday morning (that's organized religion's rules). The Church are the people that know Jesus, and do what He did.

Also, I don't claim to be perfect or to know everything. I am just a guy. I screw up like anyone. But Jesus has set me free from a lot, (including worshiping Satan, and hating everyone in sight), and I just want to share that with others, if they are interested. I'm not interested in controlling them, getting them to "go to church" etc. I just want them to know how cool Jesus is. He is a real person to me. I can feel Him guiding me (I know that's sounds weird. I'm just being honest).

For me, Christianity is simply getting to know Jesus personally, being set free, and then telling someone else (not forcing it down their throats).

And just so everyone knows, I am not offended by what anyone has said. I can see why people hate Christians. There are a lot of bad examples out there. I just hope you won't put us all in the same bag, and not hold God responsible for the actions of people who misuse His Name and say that He sent them. God is Love.



<b><font color=green> Have a day </font color=green></b>

The Qur'an was written and has remained as one version. Translations of it to other languages is another matter. In the Qur'an Jesus is a prophet. The Last Prophet was Muhammed, who brought Islam to the people.



<font color=red>"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"</font color=red>

ksoth is on the ball on this one. The way I see it, the bible is a Story. It is nothing more than that, nothing less. It is a mixture of folk stories and fear. People need to get into a historical perspective to understand that the church needed power and the bible was the way they did it. Ever wonder how they got all the riches to build the many cathedrals? Would they get that if nobody believed in the bible? No, but how did they convice them that the bible was true? They didn't, they just told them that they would go to hell if they didn't conform. In many cases there was death and torture. Witch trials ring a bell? Crusades? Please people, don't give credibility to a book without proof. It was fear that made people believe. People are afraid to go to hell. If you want to say you have FAITH in the bible, that is fine. But faith is all it is.

Just because you say it is true doesn't mean it is. There is no proof about anything in it. Certain timelines match, but they are all exagerated. What about the counting of days that proves that the earth was created in ~4400 bc? That's a scientifically proven crock of crap. I find it ironic that christians claim that noah's ark actually exists and is on a mountain in turkey. Yet, aparently there is no proof about anything. They weren't allowed to return to do any research. Yes, I've seen the documentary and it's rather stupid in my opinion. It's like the ufo phenomenom. Where are the videos of statues crying? What about the burial shroud? I hope people realize how the church treats people. The church is always right. Doesn't matter who you are or what you have to say. Galileo spent the end of his life under house arrest because he challanged the church's geocentric ideas. It's a wonder they didn't kill him. Yet the church was wrong.

You have faith. Nothing more. Nothing less. Yes I'm sure that all those historical figures existed, but they didn't return from the dead and they didn't part any seas. If someone was to tell you today that they walked on water you would call them insane. If they insisted you would insist on proof. The same should hold true for the bible. Give us proof or shut up. I have faith in a higher power, but my higher power is definitely not your god.

<font color=red>Did you ever wonder WHY aliens only abduct idiots?</font color=red>

I was not meaning to insult you at all, and was merely pointing out some of the inconsistencies/fallcaies in your statements. I have read the bible a long time ago, and tried again a couple years ago but couldn't bring myself through it.

I know you didn't say EVERY part of the bible has been scientifically proven. I simply equated biblical proof to the Iliad. It is that simple. Just because something the bible describes has physical proof behind it does not mean it happened the way the bible says. To me, all it shows is that to make it seem more credible, the authors mythologized (is that even a word? hehe) true stories or events to make them seem more than what they really were. Scientific evidence does in no way prove the "biblical" aspects of the bible, but merely shows that the places the bible takes place in existed.

The only reason why the bible may have more scientific proof to back it up is because most people who have the ability or resources to search through history are christian. Why would christians "waste" time trying to prove other religions.

I totally understand what you mean, but I feel as if you are wrong, and your views are skewed by your dedication to your religion. Not to be insulting, but that's the one thing that I find the most frustrating about debating with religious people. Most of the dumb ones (and you are not dumb) simply say "while the bible says so, so its true," which is really funny, but sad at the same time. Although you try to back up the credibility of the bible, it is almost an impossibility to prove it as truth and not as a simply story. By you just saying there is more scientific proof behind the bible than anything else, but not citing sources or saying what proof, is an invalid argument as it gives me no insight to what you are talking about.

To do anything does not take faith at all. Lots of stuff have been empirically proven, and to say otherwise is total BS. That school of thought just pisses me off because it makes no sense and is simply said to try to be all philosophical and deep. 1 + 1 = 2. It's proven and it's the truth. Getting on a plane takes no faith. It may take faith for weak people to believe the plane will not crash. For me, I'd feel comfortable because statistics (proven mathematics) show plane travel to be safe. No faith at all. It takes faith to believe the bible because there is NO evidence that it is true (besides what was discussed before, but to say it's true based on that would be akin to say the events in the Iliad are 100% true because the Trojan War really happened).

"You say that the parts of the Bible that are not yet proven to you are fantasy. Do you have proof to prove that those parts are fantasy?"

Sorry to be blunt, but that's a stupid statement. If I write a book about my own creation story with dragons and fairies and give it to you to disprove, you couldn't do it. That doesn't mean that it's true. Proving something to be true and proving something not to be true are different, and the burden lies on proving something to be true to achieve credibility, and not proving something to be false to achieve incredibility. Confusing enough? hehe.

Of course it is my opinion that the bible is a sham, and it's only your opinion that it's the truth. But, logic is what brings forth my opinion, while it is only faith that brings forth yours. Logic goes a long way my friend.

Some quotes about god from your previous posts, and why they make no sense:

"The only reason God gets angry is when we do things that separate us from Him. He created us to be with Him, so that He would have someone to love. He gets angry when we are self-destructive!"

God gets angry? But god is supposedly all knowing and perfect. How can a perfect being get angry? Plus, who would already know EVERYTHING that is EVER done, so how could he be surprised and angry when those things happen? It is a contradiction to the biblical definition of god, and totally illogical and without sense. God gets angry in the bible to scare people into following the church. And since when does he only get angry when people are self-destructive? That statement is simply contrary to what the bible says. Since when is homosexuality self-destructive? It's not at all in the least bit, yet god feels that homosexuals deserve to burn forever in the depths of hell. Also, what god does in the bible is again contradictory to what the bible says. The bible says god created man with free will, but that is obviously a total crock, because if it were'nt why would god punish people in life for what they are doing if they have free will? If they have free will, how could there be any punishment at all. It's just like saying "You can do what you want, but you have to do what I say." It is contradictory and totally illogical.

"In the Old Testament part of the Bible (the part before Jesus died for us to pay the price for all our sins) God had no choice but to destroy those who would not follow Him, because He had not yet come in the human form of Jesus, to die in our place."

God did lot's of stuff throughout the old testament. To say that murder was his only chance because he had not yet materialized on earth makes no sense whatsoever. He is GOD!!!!! He should be able to do anything he wants. He could snap his finger and make all the bad go away and only keep good, but he kills and murders instead. Do you know why? Because the first doesn't make a scary story. The latter scares people. "If you do that, god will smite you down." "Oh, better not do that then and better always listen to what you have to say." (discussion between church and people).

"Even THEN He would be kind and let some survive, and He would poor out blessings on those who were left."

Hmmm, have you read the bible? Let's talk about Moses for a bit. Moses was the only ritous one in Egypt, while the Phaoroh was evil and away from god. Now, to make the Phaoroh pay, god unleashes plagues after plagues upon everyon in Egypt in order to set Moses free. Now, Moses is set free for his diligance and piety to god, and how does god repay him? By making him and his followers wander the desert for 40 years starving and dying! Hmm, nice god alright, and nice blessings. But, in the context of the bible, do you know what that means? "Even if things get tough, god is still there." It's a story with an ends mean, not truth.

"And let’s not forget what these people He killed were doing! They were sacrificing their sons and daughters to demons as human sacrifices and stuff like that! He wasn't upset for no reason."

Hmm, people do that today yet god does nothing. You know why? Because he doesn't exist the way the bible says. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not arrogant enough to say there is NO god, but I am saying the christian god is a farse. Anyways, he even kills when it is undeserving (do I have to bring up Lot's wife again?) Plus, how were the peasant's in Egypt who were just living, deserving of the plagues? They weren't, yet it was done to them anyway. Forget just plaguing the Phaoroh, that doesn't make a good scary story, but plaguing the peasents say "even if you're good, if you don't follow god you will be punished."

"You say that God is evil. That is an interesting statement. Do you believe in an absolute good and an absolute evil?"

I don't know at all about an absolute good or absolute evil. God, as depicted in the bible, is evil in the way cruel rulers of history were evil. He is cruel, hateful, murderous, and hypocritical. He does the same thing as was done in the Spanish Inquisition, which many religous people today admit as being horrible acts, in effect evil.

My response to your nerve damage healing is "mind over matter." You sao wanted to be healed that it happened. This has been proven to happen. Hypnosis is a great way of letting such things take place. In high school I did a report on the paranormal, and as a part I interviewed a hypnotist who dealt in "spiritual" healing. Now, he had a clent who had nerve damage in his spine, and after one session the damage was healed and the client feeled fine after years of pain. Now, altough this person claimed "spirits," not god, help his work, other experiments show that under hypnosis, the power of suggestion actually can cause physical effects to occur that naturally shouldn't. In a program I saw on TLC, this woman was placed under hypnosis and was told she was going to have a burning hot poker placed on her arm. All that it was was a quarter at room temperature, but over the course of an hour or so the place where the quarter was pressed into her skin turned into an actual burn blister, simply because that's what her mind was expecting. Also, the way Buddhist monks use their minds to make their bodies do seemingly impossible feats is more proof of such a statement. That is my explaination for why prayer gets something, if anything at all, done.

Now, lets discuss the concept of prayer, and how you feel it actually get's things done. Now, prayer to me is something that is a horrible concept. God ONLY cares and does things when people pray to him? That is like saying god needs the attention for him to even care! What about all the people who pray and pray and pray but get nothing at all in return? God cares about your nerver damage but not the person who's been paralyzed? The family of a person in a coma for 10 years prays every day, yet god doesn't care at all. An old friend of mine from high school told me this story about the power of prayer... He and his brother and friends went to spain. There, they bought some wine, but when they drank it it was horrible and gross. Now, he said that night his brother prayed to god, and the next day he said the wine tasted wonderful. I mean, that is such a ridiculous statement. God cares about how underage kids' wine tastes, but not the suffering of millions? God cares about this, but not that? It makes no sense and is a point contrary to the definition of god. Prayer is a connection with ones self, not with god.

There very well may be a god and an afterlife. The main problem I have with spirituality is because of Christianity, and how it is hypocritical, contradictory, and illogical. It is contrary to physical evidence of the beginnings of life, as is most spirituality. I feel as if I am a good person, and if there is a god and an afterlife, then I should be judged on that, and not how much I go to church. That is what I have a problem with. You can be the best person on the planet, but if you're an athiest you go to hell, because for some reason god needs the attention and the feeling of people loving his perfection. It makes no sense to me.

"Trying is the first step towards failure."

Faith:

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs


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To me christians are all religons that believe in Jesus: Baptists, Catholics, Mormans, Gospel, Jehovahs Witnesses, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.

Do I believe in God? Hmmm, well yes and no. I don't believe in the God of <b>any</b> religion. I do believe in a god of <b>all</b> religions. What I mean by this is that god is not something that one person, nor all persons can even come close to understanding.

God is a <b>part</b> of all religions, and more. For any one person or religion, or group of persons to "define" god is an insult to god. However, regardless of one's religion, If you think you are worshiping <b>your</b> god, you are really worshipping everyone's god. We grow up and are fed an <b>idea</b> of what god is. That <b>idea</b> is simply influenced by our culture. If one thinks that their god is the true GOD, they are really saying their culture is the only important culture. This is an extreme example of cultural-centrism.(when I was young, the teachers at my christian school tried to tell me that all other religions are mistaken, and that Christianity is the one true religion, I am reminded of Depeche Mode's "Told you So" )

What I really think god is,(and I admit I don't really know) is that god is everything(every molecule included) and everwhere, even the "collective unconscious". That is a large enough scale to compare my misunderstanding of the true meaning of god. I can barely think outside of my own county, let alone my own state, country, planet, solar system, galaxy, universe, multiverse.

Yes I "believe" in god.

I think that church and god are something completely different.

I know church goers who are a$$holes, and don't get the ideas of what Jesus Christ or Mohammed or Buddha or the Tao(did I leave any religions out?) represents.

I know people who have never been to church, yet show more compassion for their fellow man than I could ever imagine.

The more you try to define god, the farther you get from the true <b>idea</b> of god.

Of course, you know that what I think and beleive mean nothing in reality(again, it cheapens what god truly is). I know I don't understand it, and that makes me happy.

There is no problem that an Optimator can't solve.

Thank you for the very thorough post. You are very well spoken, and have stated your points very clearly.

I would say that has to do with the definition of "empirically".

<b>empirical</b> (from Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary 1953)

1. Depending on experience or observation alone, without due regard to science and theory; as, <i>empirical</i> remedies.

2. Pertaining to, or founded upon, experiment or experience; as, <i>empirical</i> knowledge.

When I used the word empirical. I was referring to definition #2. I believe that we have to make an assumption that reality really exists, in order to say that empirical knowledge can exist. The problem is that, by the empirical definition, nothing exists until it has been empirically proven. I see an inherent contradiction in the concept of <i>purely</i> "empirical" knowledge. To me it seems like circular reasoning.

I would have to say that we all somehow "know" that absolute truth exists. But empirical knowledge can never get us all the way there. And <i>that</i> is a conclusion that I have reached by <i>faith</i>. I would <i>never</i> say that facts, proof, and scientific evidence are worthless though. I agree with you, that to say that there is nothing that has been proven is ridiculous. I do say that faith comes first. And you may say that my reasoning in having faith based upon evidence is circular as well. If my faith is based upon evidence, and my acceptance of the evidence is based upon faith, then I have a problem. I <i>believe</i> that I don't have a problem though (I know this is getting convoluted), and that is because I have <i>decided</i> to believe. I must admit that it is a decision of my will. I also have to say that it is according to God's will as well (see discussion of Predestination and freewill below). Also, if there is no absolute truth, then there is no purpose in this discussion (if this discussion is even taking place! ). But let's agree (as we already have) that there is absolute proof of things, and absolute truth. Which brings us back to the question of whether we need faith to accept that. I say yes. You will have to decide for yourself if you agree, if you haven't already made up your mind. Which brings me to another statement you made:

Actually the Bible says that we, <b>both</b>, have a free will, <i>and</i> that God is in control of our will. I know that this may sound contradictory to some of my statements in my previous posts, let me explain. This is what is called the “Predestination verses freewill" argument, and Christians and many brilliant minds have debated how this could be the case, or whether it is only one or the other -for centuries. I believe that recent discoveries and advances in science in general, and physics in particular, have shed new light on this Biblical statement. And that is; that we are unable to grasp (outside of mathematics) the fact that cause and effect, as we know them, are governed by the dimensional limitations that we exist in. Limitations that do not apply to God, if He really is transcendent. This would also explain why God does not need to have a beginning. If God had a beginning, then He would not be God. In fact, the fact that things have a beginning begs the conclusion that whatever or whoever "began" everything must have always been. He must have always existed. Otherwise nothing could have ever been created, or had it's "beginning", in the first place. That, and the fact that there is so much order in our universe, tells me that there is a God. The "style" of the things he created then reflects His personality and desire. And any book that has supposedly been written by Him must be in unity with what we see in the created universe. I, after long study, have concluded that the Bible is the only book that bears evidence of being designed by a transcendent being. It foretells events before they happen, and that is not because those things were written after the event that they foretell. And those things are not generalizations like: "you will cross water this week", like a fortune cookie would give you. No, they are <i>very</i> specific. Like God calling king Cyrus by name and telling him that he would overthrow Babylon hundreds of years before Cyrus was born. Explain <i>that</i> to me, outside of a transcendent God being responsible for the Bible. So no, I don't think that the Bible's portrayal of God and His actions are "contradictory" or "illogical". People just need to take into account God’s extra-dimensional qualities and transcendence. And I believe that in the Bible God defines Himself. So by writing this I am not defining Him, only quoting/explaining what He has said as best I can (and I probably am making some mistakes, I am only human).

It’s easy to say “I don’t believe it, prove it to me”. But it’s hard to do all the work to bring that evidence to you. I don’t have all the literature on a CD so that I can copy and paste it. And writing it all as a post would take huge amounts of space. Sorry, I thought that I had given enough references to sources and books that talk about the same things I have written above, to be an adequate starting place for verifying my claims. Perhaps this was lazy of me. I will post some things here for your inspection.

I strongly disagree, and I shall get together some more substantial evidence and post it here. In the meantime I suggest checking out the references to books in my posts and getting them from your local library. And also checking out the info on the website I referred to.

Just a small note: Actually, it wasn't Moses that was the prisoner; it was the nation of Israel (not all that important to our discussion though). As far as God being unjust and cruel -He had chosen the Nation of Israel to be set apart and special, and to later lead the rest of the nations to know Him, and to leave Egypt so that they could have a nation of their own so that they could accomplish this purpose. So he wanted Egypt to let them go. Egypt had been enslaving Israel for 400 years. God had waited for that amount of time on purpose, because He had a plan for all of it. He wanted to reveal that plan. You may say that letting them suffer for all that time was cruel and wrong, but, if so, you would be assuming that all suffering is "wrong". Or that the definition of evil is to make someone suffer. I don't agree that suffering, killing, and pain are always wrong. Yes, you could say that God did "evil" to His people. Because killing, suffering, pain etc. are definitely negative things (if you define negative as evil). And God did bring plagues on the Egyptians (after warning them). And yes, God said that He had caused Pharaoh to "harden" his heart so that he would not let the Israelites go (Pharaoh also decided to harden his own heart). So it is clear that God willingly took responsibility for all the suffering going on in this story. But we are missing some vital facts if we then conclude that God is unjust. God knows everything about everyone, He also creates people for the purpose of using them to reveal something about His way. Sometimes this means destroying them. God can do whatever He wants, He is God. But He is not unjust. You are judging Him by your own definition of "unjust" "evil" "cruel". The Bible says that God <i>created</i> Pharaoh for the purpose of destroying him. Pharaoh served his purpose. BUT, Pharaoh also decided to be destroyed (here is that weird sounding paradox again). So pharaoh was not treated unjustly, neither were the Egyptians, and neither were the Israelites. What is right or wrong is defined by God, in my opinion. He punishes disobedience. But He doesn’t do it unjustly. He does it for our good, not because He is cruel. We don’t see the whole picture at all (myself included). Obeying God leads to life. Disobeying leads to death. It’s just the nature of the universe He created. God has a lot of grace and mercy though too. You have not quoted any of the <i>many</i> places in the Bible that God showed mercy and kindness. There are probably more instances in the Old Testament of God showing love, mercy, kindness, grace etc. Than in the New Testament, but you have left those out of your examples. Even His judgment was always for constructive purposes. This is very different than the “evil” rulers of history that killed for selfish reasons, and out of hate, greed, power etc.

I see the predestination-freewill idea like this:

Let's say that there is a land of people who have only two dimensions. And you are God, and are trying to reveal to them what a cone is. Since a cone is a strictly three-dimensional object, you must give them a description of the cone in two dimensions. So you give them an extra-dimensional ability called faith, that will only help them to understand if they use the faith they have. You then tell them that the cone is a circle <i>and</i> a triangle. The flat people then argue amongst themselves about how that could possibly be the case. Most of them dismiss it as total stupidity, since it is an obvious impossibility, and a geometric absurdity. So you then tell them what their insides look like, in order to prove that you have abilities that they don't, and to further reveal your extra-dimensional nature. Some of the people believe you by faith, inspired by the things that have been proven to them -like telling them about their insides- and then, to further increase their understanding, you give some of them visions of the cone. You do this by making use of another extra-dimensional part of the flat people called the "spirit", a part that you created when you first created them, but that they are not aware of, or able to use, unless they use the extra-dimensional ability of "faith". In the visions you show them what a cone looks like, and then they understand, and go tell the others. They say “it looked like a... circle <i>and</i> a triangle”! Some more of the flat people believe, but many still do not. They require "proof" (or more of it). But are unable to ever comprehend that proof because they will not make use of faith. You give them the requirement of first having faith, because you know that they can never possibly understand what the cone is without it. This, the unbelieving flat people say, "is not fair". But this is how you have decided to make it work, and you have given everything to them they need in order for them to understand. So it is fair. All of this that you have done (the cone, faith, making the flat people in the first place) is for the purpose of revealing yourself, because you are the only origin of things. So knowing God is the ultimate quest. I also strongly suggest reading the book <A HREF="http:// http://store.reasons.org/cgi-bin/w [...] e0IM&#034; target="_new">“Beyond the Cosmos”</A> by Dr. Hugh Ross as a large source of information for proving the Bible’s validity as a whole.

Are you sure He does nothing? Or perhaps are you putting Him in your time frame. Perhaps He is taking His time, being merciful, because He decided to. Sending people like me out to turn people to Him so as few people as possible are destroyed. I’m sure you haven’t been around more than a few decades. Perhaps He is giving us lots of time. Or perhaps you don’t see the things that bring punishment as being acts of God.

Most of this I have already just stated my views on. But I must say that the Bible doesn't say, "God killed Lot's wife". It says that she looked back and turned to a pillar of salt. What that means is unclear to me, but it may mean something other than God killing her. If God did kill her by turning her to a pillar of salt, then it was only in line with His destroying Sodom and Gomorrah. He also didn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for no reason (although you may not agree with His reasons). Those two cities were full of people who did every evil thing imaginable. When God sent two of His angels to take a look at it and look for anyone who was righteous, the men of the city demanded that they be able to rape the angels! God had already told Abraham that He would not destroy the cities if He found even ten righteous people there, but He did not find that many. He did still rescue Lot and his family from the city though. It was despicable of Lot’s wife to look back at that horrible place and long to return. It was a direct disobedience to God for her to be sympathizing with such an evil place right after being rescued from it. If God killed her, it would probably be for this reason.

So you do believe in "evil" which means you believe in "good".

God, according to the Biblical definition, is a person. As far as He has feelings, loves, feels pain, gets jealous, and gets angry. I think you are assuming that emotions are inherently imperfect. The Bible says that man (meaning the race of man) was created in God's image, and that it was ALL good and perfect to begin with. However, the Bible never says that God was "surprised" by anything. He can be angry about something that He already knows will happen. He relates to us in our dimensional limitations -to some extent- for our sake. When He came as Jesus, He related to us in the ultimate way.

You have got to be kidding. Homosexuality (in addition to any sexual sin, as the Bible calls it) has obvious effects on the human body. Look at all the diseases that are rampant in the world because of the things that the Bible call "sin". Can you deny, that there would be drastically fewer diseases on Earth if no one had sex outside of marriage, thus only one partner, and if no one had anal sex? Do you know what it does to your immune system when sperm are introduced to the rectum (not to be too gross)? Even if you are using a condom, you are trying to stop a very small virus with a latex shield that has very large holes (in relation to the virus). And, last I heard, condoms have a 10-15% failure rate. It's like trying to stop a bee bee with a chain-link fence. I know the Bible doesn't say anything about anal sex with women. But it doesn't say anything about smoking either. It does say to "honor God with your body" and to not do things to yourself or others that are harmful, and then it gives major examples such as homosexuality, over-eating (gluttony), witchcraft (Greek word: "Pharmacia" meaning: using drugs).

Yes, as I said before, I have read the Bible, many times, every word, multiple times.

That was my point also. Sorry if it wasn't clear.


I have much more evidence to present. But I will post it separately.



<b><font color=green> Have a day </font color=green></b> :smile:

I posted my beliefs more to provide a different perspective than what was being portrayed here, not so much for the purpose of debating it or not. However, I am open to discussion on it if for no other reason than to help engage my brain on the subject to help me write my book on it. But also because it's fun.

I wish that I could take the credit for coming up with it myself, but I can't entirely. It's more really a combination of several other beliefs that I fit together and added pieces too in an effort to find what I believe to be true. I can't say that this is indeed the fundamental nature of the universe, but since no one really can say what is with any certainty, it's as good an explanation as any in my opinion.

The pieces of the puzzle that make up these beliefs came together as a whole in one of those life-changing epiphanies that people sometimes have, so I like to believe that I came to it all for a reason. Which is why I'm trying to write a book on it. Not to be someone's saint or anything, but just in hopes that someone else might read it and be able to at least take away some parts of it and better understand life as a result of that.

As I said in my post, what I gave was a very abbreviated version of it all, and I didn't explain many of the fundamental concepts that it is based on. It'd probably litterally take a book to explain it all from scratch. But luckily we mostly understand a lot of the concepts involved so I won't have to write a book.

Okay, we believe in energy and matter. And that fundamentally energy can exist without matter. We believe in anti-matter, which is (as far as I understand it) matter made up of reversely-charged particles.

When I talk about <b>Nothing</b>, <b>Chaos</b>, and <b>Order</b>, I'm talking about primal energies. These are sort of like gods, only they're above gods. I always put them in bold to signify that talking about them is more than just like talking about a deity. They're unlimited sources of energy, each sort of like a sun giving off radiation. Only their 'fuel' is self-replenishing and comes from their 'will', and their 'radiation' is a fundamental energy.

When I say that their energy comes from their will, it implies that these energies have a consciousness. But whether they actually do or not can be argued, as it isn't exactly a consciousness like humans have. They're sort of like a constant desire for something, that something being the energy that they give off. They don't actually express coherent 'thought' unless they actually come into conflict with one another and are forced to 'think' so that their will prevails. But for the most part, they sit there in a constant state of willing. And as long as that will is the reality around them, they remain more or less content and passive.

So each of these is a will for something, and the striving of that will gives off energy attuned to that will.

The hardest part to believe in, and something that was very hard to find information in any religion on, was the belief in <b>Nothing</b>. <b>Nothing</b> is like anti-energy. If you can imagine how anti-matter destroys matter, you can imagine how anti-energy destroys energy, and how that would in turn destroy matter.

<b>Nothing</b> started out being the only 'energy' (or anti-energy in this case) in the universe. The only way to really describe <b>Nothing</b> is that it was the will to not exist. And in not existing, that will was content. It was like the whole universe was a great timeless void that was constantly in the process of being torn down, even though it didn't even exist in the first place.

But you can't have a will without some piece of something actually existing. So in actuality, <b>Nothing</b> is in itself a contradictory thing that could only delude itself into believing that it didn't exist by having nothing around it exist.

Because of this, eventually, a part of the will that was <b>Nothing</b> grew too strongly and broke away. That was <b>Chaos</b>. The will of <b>Chaos</b> knew that both itself and <b>Nothing</b> really existed. And that without anything else existing around them, that existence would be incredibly boring. Because <b>Chaos</b> was once a part of <b>Nothing</b>, it also had the same ability to emmit energy around it. So <b>Chaos</b> left the presence of <b>Nothing</b> and worked on changing the energy that came from itself into posative energy that actually created things.

Then when <b>Nothing</b> was forced to destroy <b>Chaos</b> so that it could go back to deluding itself that it didn't exist, their fight created such a welling-up of energies that a mixture of their two wills was formed, which was <b>Order</b>.

So the three of them were all wills who's active desire for that will created energies in tune with their will that radiated from them.

It's like if you had a pitch black room (<b>Nothing</b> ) with a little red light (<b>Chaos</b> ), and two feet from that light a little yellow light (<b>Order</b> ). Around each light would be a region that was totally red and totally yellow. (Or at least so strongly red and yellow that it would be near impossible to detect the other color in it.) And between the two lights is a region where the colors blend. And in the corners of the room are regions where no light reaches at all. And we live in the middle of that, where life is a balance of abundant energies and everything is radiant. Or something corny and metaphysical like that. Heh heh.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me if anyone believes any of it or not. But it does serve to explain a lot of things in not only a scientific manner, but also in a metaphysical manner and a spiritual manner. So hopefully some people will at least be able to take some of it and use it to better appreciate life or find some comfort or answer.

-If you think <font color=blue>I'm</font color=blue> crazy, you should meet some of my <font color=red>other</font color=red> personalities.

I've generally been avoiding getting into the whole 'prove the Bible' debates because simply I don't follow Christianity myself. But I'm going to smack myself and jump in anyway.

"<font color=blue>But let's agree (as we already have) that there is absolute proof of things, and absolute truth. Which brings us back to the question of whether we need faith to accept that.</font color=blue>"
I too agree that there is absolute truth. And that in time, hopefully, we will come to the absolute proof to find this absolute truth. But I don't think it takes any faith to believe this. It's the fundamental basis of science. Absolute truths exist, and we make theories about these truths that we then later prove and disprove to define the truth <i>as we know it</i>. So it's only a logical conclusion to believe that ultimately, at some point in time, we will develop the technology that we will use to find every last answer to every question. It's just human nature to strive to accomplish this. I don't see faith as being needed for this. Even a person who doesn't believe in a theory can try to disprove that theory. So scientific discovery is driven as much by putting faith in things as by not putting faith in things. And in fact, science works best when we don't even put faith in anything and simply work on a basis to prove theories without believing that they are correct or incorrect so that our method of prooving them isn't biased.

The whole free-will vs. predestiny thing is a real pain. I think I heard it best described that if God <i>makes</i> a person want to do something, then that person will want to do that something. Is God choosing what that person does? Yes. Is that person choosing what they do? Yes. Is it actually <i>free</i>-will? Well, not really, but it's so much like it that some people just don't care. And the ones that do are the ones that have a problem with it. Heh.

"<font color=blue>It foretells events before they happen, and that is not because those things were written after the event that they foretell. </font color=blue>"
I've met plenty of people that can fortell events before they happen as well. Even I myself can do this to some degree when I try. I could probably do it a lot better if I tried it more often. Heh. Practice makes perfect and all. But still, just because a person can accurately predict the future doesn't mean that they're 'God' inspired.

"<font color=green>Now, Moses is set free for his diligance and piety to god, and how does god repay him? By making him and his followers wander the desert for 40 years starving and dying! Hmm, nice god alright, and nice blessings.</font color=green>"
I think I'd best explain God's will here by pointing out that what could God have done? Whenever God directly applies his will to things he causes mountains to shake and bushes to burn. God's direct force is extremely destructive to our fragile little selves. So anything that had to be done, had to be done by man under the guidance of God, because if God did anything directly, He'd probably accidentally kill people.
And it wasn't like they had cars to drive or anything then. So if they wanted to get away from their oppressors, then they had to walk. And around Egypt, walking anywhere pretty much requires walking through desert. God couldn't help that. But he did give the people food and water to help their journey, and he did guide them in the right direction.
What I find more disturbing though is that when the journey was done, God led the people all to an inhabited city and then gave them the power to kill the city's citizens, all because they weren't <i>God's chosen people</i>. That's a pretty mean thing to do. God didn't even come to the people in the city and tell them that they had to leave. He just gave his chosen ones the power to wipe them from existence. That's not a very compasionate God if you ask me... Even if they were all thieves, murderers, and rapists, they should still at least be given some warning so that they had the choice to repent and leave in peace.

"<font color=blue>You are judging Him by your own definition of "unjust" "evil" "cruel".</font color=blue>"
Darn straight I do. How else can I judge anyone? And if I don't believe that a person meets the expectations of my form of judgement, then I generally don't end up liking that person. If God happens to not pass my form of judging people, then nuts to God.
Now, I could also say (if I followed Christianity) that God created everything and God could destroy me with a mere thought. So we had all better darn well do whatever God says and like it because He made us and he can break us. And I could further point out that it really doesn't matter if God is good, what matters is that God created us and God can kill us and make us suffer.
So ultimately, it just doesn't matter if God is good, because whatever He says goes anyway.
And this is why I personally have a problem with Christianity. Because to me, God isn't good. And if He thinks I'm supposed to praise Him just because He's God, He can shove that praise where the sun don't shine. Heh heh. Personally, I'd rather burn in Hell in a state of constant searing pain than sit in Heaven and sing praises to a deity that I can't stand just to save my arse. I'd <i>never</i> be able to stand myself if I were that hypocritical.

The whole, "<font color=blue>land of people who have only two dimensions</font color=blue>", thing was interesting, but if I were 'God', I'd sure go about it in an entirely different manner that would make a lot more sense. Instead of the whole faith crap, I'd simply just give my two-dimensional people the ability to see (but not exist in) three dimensions. And then I'd tell them that if they're good little boys and girls, one day I'll take them to a land where they exist in three dimensions. That way they can see and understand exactly what I'm trying to tell them about, and it'll make them long for it and do everything they can to get it all the more.
The whole faith route only leads to perfectly good people being confused or even just disbelieving, which in turn leads to perfectly good people going to Hell, the way that God chose to do it. That's hardly a 'good' method, if you ask me.

"<font color=blue>Are you sure He does nothing? Or perhaps are you putting Him in your time frame. Perhaps He is taking His time, being merciful, because He decided to. Sending people like me out to turn people to Him so as few people as possible are destroyed.</font color=green>"
I don't know about you, but that in itself seems a very wrong way to do it. <i>Fair</i> judgement should be swift and relative to the 'crime'. Letting these bad people run around and do more bad stuff is only creating unneeded suffering. Had there been immediate justice as in a "repent or suffer/die" scenario, a LOT less people would be bad, and those that were bad anyway would be immediately wiped out. Thus leaving the rest of us able to more enjoy the world.

"<font color=green>Anyways, he even kills when it is undeserving (do I have to bring up Lot's wife again?)</font color=green>"
Here I have to disagree. She was warned not to look back. She knew better. Say I put together a laser. And I then tell everyone not to look directly into the laser. If anyone looks directly into it anyway, it's their fault if they go blind, not mine.

"<font color=green>God gets angry? But god is supposedly all knowing and perfect. How can a perfect being get angry?</font color=green>"
I'd be disappointed by any deity that doesn't feel emotions. And even anger by itself isn't bad. Anger helps us realize what we believe to be right. If a deity didn't feel anger, I'd constantly be afraid of what that deity would do next because it wouldn't be limited by morals.

"<font color=blue>Can you deny, that there would be drastically fewer diseases on Earth if no one had sex outside of marriage, thus only one partner, and if no one had anal sex?</font color=blue>"
Can you say that there is <i>never</i> a right time and place for these things? If they were used/done with more consideration, there wouldn't be a problem. The problem is not in these acts. It is in people not using their brains in the first place, or purposely choosing a harmful path.
It's like saying that all nuclear energy is bad because so many people have been killed by atomic bombs. Yet how many houses are provided power by nuclear power plants? How many lives are saved from hospitals being powered by these plants? <i>Anything</i> has the <i>potential</i> to be used in a good way or in a bad way. And it is up to <i>us</i> on how things are used. The only thing that should be considered 'sin' or 'wrong' is when things are used without consideration. When a person does something that they know will harm another. No one, not even God, should have any right to dictate what we can and cannot do just because that dictation <i>might</i> keep us from harm. If God had never created disease in the first place, then where would your point even be?
Honestly, I think the Ten Commandments are a joke. (Completely hypothetical situation to follow.) If my wife had cancer and was about to die any minute now and asked me if she looked beautiful, no matter how horrid she looked because of the cancer, I'd still tell her that she looked beautiful. It'd be a flat out lie, but it'd make her last moments a little happier.
Should I have to 'repent' doing this service to make my wife's life better? Hell no. And according to the Bible, if I <i>never</i> repent doing that and mean it in my heart, then I'll burn in hell.
Is <i>that</i> right? Where's the good in a religion that works that way?
(Another completely hypothetical situation to follow.) If my father tells me to go out and kill fifty people, would I do it? Hell no. I sure as hell wouldn't honor my father then. Yet according to the Bible, because I'd never repent for not honoring my father in that case, I'd go to Hell.
I could come up with these examples all day long. My point is simply that <i>fair</i> judgement should take the whole picture into consideration, not just single incidents. But the Bible doesn't work that way. God doesn't claim to work that way.

My conclusion:
As much as I enjoy debating the existence of God and if Christianity is the right path for all (or not), I personally have come to the conclusion that either the Christian God exists and is a big mean hypocritical jerk who is only nice to certain people, the Christian God exists and isn't actually telling the whole truth about just how powerful He is and that He's the ONLY God, or that the Christian God doesn't even exist except as a creation formed from the belief of all of the Christians out there who think He exists. (Because I believe that enough belief in something can make it reality, so if enough people believe that the Christian God exists, then He exists, but only because they believe so.)

-If you think <font color=blue>I'm</font color=blue> crazy, you should meet some of my <font color=red>other</font color=red> personalities.

The main problem I have with that explaination is that the chirstian god is supposedly perfect, and by Fa1con's own admission he can do whatever he want's. If people can do most stuff without accidently killing people, I'm sure a perfect god could do a little bit better. Yeah, he gave them food and water, but not much, and if they tried saving the food it would turn into maggots! HAHA, really nice of him. That tale is a moral tale that tries to teach diligence and persistence to the church, and that there may be hardships, but you must live through them and keep your faith. It didn't really happen, it is in the bible for a reason.

Thats comparing apples and oranges. God's god, and you're you. God obvisouly saved her for a reason, because she was one of the few noble people in the city. But, he kills her not for being bad, but for just not listening. Lots (no pun intended, hehe) of people don't listen to god today, yet he does nothing. That story is in the bible for a reason.

Like I said, emotions get in the way of logic and doing the right thing. You ever heard the term "thinking with your heart, not your head." People who make decisions based only on their feelings do not always do the right thing, and I would much rather have a god that thinks about things before doing them than letting emotions control his actions. Morals and emotions are different, but being that we are talking about a perfect god, they shouldn't even matter. Anyway, emotions get in the way of morals sometimes as well. Anger and hate, very powerful emotions, can override many people moral beliefs and cause them to do things that they shouldn't, and normally wouldn't, do.

"Trying is the first step towards failure."

First off, let me say that I completely agree with you about Christianity. And my debating for it was not because I believed in it, but because I was trying to offer reasonable excuses/explanations based on what I know of Christianity. Just because I don't believe in something doesn't mean that I can't debate for it.

As for the whole Lot's wife bit, what if God chose to destroy S&G by simply putting a big shiny sphere in the middle of the city that turned anything to salt in a certain radius and turned anything that looked directly at it into salt, and the sphere lasted for thirty minutes before it'd fade and dissolve? God hands out the appropriate warnings to the 'good' people and puts his plan into action. Then she turns around and looks anyway, and poof, salt. Her own dumb fault.
Gratned, God, being omniscient should have know it was going to happen and taken precautions to prevent it. But then again, God gave a commandment that she directly disobeyed, so maybe she deserved dying anyway.

[shrug]

Is it really God's fault if He tells someone not to do something and they do it anyway? He did warn them after all.

As for emotions getting in the way of logic though, I disagree with you. I think that just because someone has emotions doesn't mean that they'll <i>have</i> to act on them to defy logic. They choose to act on those emotions or not. And choose to do the logical thing or not. And certainly a 'perfect' God would be able to feel emotions and yet keep His decicions logical.

But no matter how I look at Christianity, if God exists, He has to be misleading us about something: Either about just how powerful and perfect He is, or about how much He actually cares about humanity.

Now, on to my beliefs.

Yes, I suppose I'm putting a lot of spiritualism spin on things. The three primal energies don't have to be in any way sentient or any sort of will. But I thought it just made more sense. But then, I believe in deities and spirits.

But I think you take spiritualism to an extreme. Here's how it works for me. I throw a ball at a tree. The ball bounces back. That's physics. I throw a ball at a tree. The ball defies physics and drops straight to the ground, but ends up hovering right above the grass for ten seconds before finally completing it's fall. That's spiritualism.

When physics can explain something, I'm all for siding with physics. When physics fails to explain something, I side with supernatural and metaphysics, at least until it can somehow later be scientifically proven.

But I have the feeling that one day we'll finally use science to prove that the supernatural is just a part of the way the universe works.

As for the big bang, it's not the actual beginning. Certain prerequisites have to be established before the big bang could even occur. The energies/matter for the big bang had to come from somewhere. And something had to make them make a big bang. I feel that a clash of Chaos energy and Order energy would explain that perfectly.

And I believe that Order isn't the same as Nothing, because something can be completely in Order with no inherant randomness whatsoever and still exist. Sure, an outside Chaos influence can intrude on that Order, but then that's just the Chaos energy changing the balance between Chaos and Order in that something.

-If you think <font color=blue>I'm</font color=blue> crazy, you should meet some of my <font color=red>other</font color=red> personalities.