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Enermax+Antec laughing their a$$ off?

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April 13, 2004 3:40:15 AM

After finding out how much power that goddamn 6800 consumes, i upgraded to an Enermax 550watt psu, costed me 120CAD. I just hope that was justified, i'm HOPING that the 6800 isn't another prescott.

Just wandering how many of us here doesn't have a 480Watt or more psu? I know i had to just upgrade from 460 to 550.

-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu

More about : enermax antec laughing

April 13, 2004 4:09:41 AM

Ive got a 200 watt!!!! An upgrade was due for me anyway...

"640K oughta be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates
That'll be enough L1 cache for me too...
April 13, 2004 5:44:05 AM

If I do decide an upgrade is necessary, I'll definately be upgrading my Enermax 350Watt PSU. I probably will soon anyways.
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a b U Graphics card
April 13, 2004 6:58:52 AM

I have both an Enermax 365 and 465. But I was planning to rebuild anyways. Just surprised that server class PSUs are required. At the time finding the Enermax 465 was a big enough pain. I have found an Enermax 651, but it's $175, so I'll wait 'til I need one and see what features are available from the Enermax, PCPower&Cooling, Fortron. I'm not fond of Antec personally (I remember there being a few issues with the R300 and NV30 at first, and so they simply slip to an A-/B+ for me). There's a new Enermax with a blower fan instead of the typical blade fan, would like to see how that one reviews. Also the smart fan running for a short while after power down is nice.

I wonder what the power differences/requirements will be for the R423 and NV45 especially since the HIS bridge chip consumes extra power (0.2w or 20 w? Will it matter overall?)

The funny thing is that Intel and ATI had said this was going to happen way back when they announced the BTX line specs and form factors. Remember we're likely to need new connectors when those come along too, so make sure you buy a PSU ready for that too, or you will have a further upgrade in your future.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
April 13, 2004 7:44:08 AM

Actually, you don't really know how much an 6800 consumes since it is not launced yet! But even if we believe all the rumours, I seriously doubt that my Antec True430 for example won't be enough for this kind of graphics cards. If they publicly declare a 460W PSU as a minimum requirement, then it is almost safe to assume that that figure is for cheap/generic PSUs. Anyway, only time will tell, but I on the other hand will also wait until the R420 is out. If it consumes less juice than the NV40, then there is no way in hell I am giving my money to Nvidia, even for more performance !!!
a b U Graphics card
April 13, 2004 8:18:37 AM

That really depends. If nV means a PSU that will deliver CLEAN 480W of power using at least the two rails, that may even discount the best of the 'lesser' PSUs that will deliver clear power around their range.

The thing is that a recommendation like this will always have wiggle room. Someone running a celeron 2ghz with just a hard drive and one optical, with one stick of memory, won't have the same power profile/needs as someone with a raided raptor laden AMD64/P4EE with PCI audio, multiple optical drives, multiple fans, multiple sticks of memory, etc.

There's going to be no way of determining what will and won't work. However if you currently need anywhere near the power of a 400+ quality PSU, then adding the NV40 or R420 will likely push the beyond the limit.

Maybe the answer is to have only one fast hard drive, 2 sticks of memory, and external optical drive, and no fans just showve your PC in the fridge. Then we can keep our 350-400W PSUs! :evil: 


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
April 13, 2004 8:38:16 AM

As I said earlier, only time will tell of course. But I find it kind hard to believe those power requirements published recently because if they are true, then 98% of all users buying the NV40 will need a PSU upgrade as well.

I don't know if it is just me, but there is a point where I draw the line between eye candy and being ripped off! (I know MANY other ways to spend USD$400(NV40)+USD$100(PSU), especially when my R9500 Pro can actually do the same job .. at least for now) Also, don't forget that BTX is just around the corner as well. If during my next upgrade I will also need to upgrade my 550W PSU to a BTX compatible model, then thanks but no thanks !!!

Btw, if I am not wrong here, trying to boot a system with an insufficient PSU can most likely fry your whole system, or at least part of it. If that is correct, then how the hell will we know if we need a PSU upgrade or not?!!!!
April 13, 2004 8:48:59 AM

yes its very likely to happen



psu doesnt just turn off , as ive haard from a few people before, it undervolts one end and overvolts the other (not 100% sure about the overvolting thing, it probably depends).. which is not a good thing

-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>
<A HREF="http://www.subhi.com/keyboard.jpg" target="_new">This is you, interweb junky</A>
April 13, 2004 12:03:22 PM

I spent it because I know the card's gonna drain power with that 16 damn pipelines, maybe my 460 was enough, but i need to overclock.

-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
April 13, 2004 12:10:44 PM

Sucks for those manufactures, Hope Enermax and Antec drop the price on their 460-480 range psu.

-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
April 13, 2004 12:44:49 PM

How much heat is this thing going to produce? Its not gonna be another NV card that needs a vacuum cleaner to cool it, is it?

P4c 2.6@3.25
512Mb PC4000
2x120Gb 7200.7 in RAID0
Waterchill KT12-L30
Abit AI7
Ge-Force4 Ti4200
April 13, 2004 2:02:31 PM

<A HREF="http://www.darkcrow.co.kr/image/news/0404/nv40.jpg" target="_new">here</A>'s a link for a pic of the 6800Ultra.

-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
April 13, 2004 2:13:39 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe -- I always enjoy reading your posts. Thanks.
April 13, 2004 2:18:14 PM

Enough with the love fest, get a room already :) 

hehe.

-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
a b U Graphics card
April 13, 2004 2:21:18 PM

That makes total sense Grape.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
a b U Graphics card
April 13, 2004 2:28:28 PM

At least from what it looks like now, it's $300 or $400 + a $100 power supply, and not $400-$600 + $100 power supply that many of us expected. Finding out the prices took $100 off the combo. Still expensive, but nice. The heat produced and the electricity used are also a big concern to me as well as the new power supply purchase.


ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
a b U Graphics card
April 13, 2004 2:37:05 PM

Come to think of it, when these cards become the norm, everyone organizing a LAN party is going to have to recalculate the number of circuits and total power needed to run all these beasts. But forget dumping 4 machines on a 15 amp circuit in the future, 2-3 will soon be the maximum when each 15 amp handles 1850 watts. How long until each needs it's own circuit? LOL ugh.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
April 13, 2004 3:28:09 PM

I doubt that it will go this way. Chances are future LAN meetings will run on laptops which are not that power hungry and can actually run on batteries :o )
a b U Graphics card
April 13, 2004 3:44:49 PM

It will be a while before the average hardcore gamer will give up his power box for a laptop. Remember these people are the ones who buy new video cards to stay with the highest performance they can get. Sure portability would be sweet, but not at the expense of performance.



ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
April 13, 2004 3:55:14 PM

True, but many LANers like me (who were there some 10 years ago when the hottest LAN title was Spectrum Holobyte’s Falcon 3.0 :o ) stopped going. I have not attended my club’s LANmeet in 3 years since I can no longer force myself to take apart my monster and carry it back and forth when the box alone weighs almost 40 lbs not to mention the 22” CRT which I can barely lift at all. And forget about putting it back together again after the LAN party. I faint when I look under my desk. All them cables and gadgets. Personally I do look forward to miniaturization in computer technology.
April 13, 2004 4:43:57 PM

Time to start thinking about dual (but not redundant) power supplies.

Think about it. The 460 watt Enermax has 35 amp, 35 amp, and 33 amp ratings on +5V, +3.3V, and +12V rails, respectively. The 550 watt unit only improves things to 36 amps all around.

If you go dual you get double power on every rail. Imagine 66 amps of +12V power.

A couple of years ago I saw an article describing how to implement dual ATX power supplies and double your available power. I think I saw the article at the old HardwareFAQ.com. (That would be at <A HREF="http://www.madshrimps.com" target="_new">http://www.madshrimps.com&lt;/A> these days).

I'll look for the article when I have a little more time.

<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by phsstpok on 04/13/04 12:45 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
a b U Graphics card
April 13, 2004 5:50:26 PM

Yeah, I am totally with you there. I have a seperate Lan box built in a lightweight Antec Lanboy case. Althought it more or less gets moved about little so far as i don't have the time to attend LAN parties either, but host mini ones for friends instead. I move and rewire computers consantly, But noway is my main gaming beast getting packed up and heading out the door. too heavy and too happy with it's current layout and wiring on the desk. I have it paired with a Video editing system and use a KVM switch. Otherwise if I do take a system to go, it will be the Lanboy not the bigger, heavy, faster one.


ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt
April 13, 2004 5:56:40 PM

LOL that will keep it nice an kool. :smile:
April 13, 2004 5:58:10 PM

430W Antec True Power is all I need. Since I'm buying 9800Pro.
April 13, 2004 6:00:03 PM

He needs more juice. Since he OC's the heck out of his rig.
April 13, 2004 6:02:04 PM

Long time know see. Glad to see your back.
April 13, 2004 6:10:15 PM

Finally gonna upgrade? Sick of that TI?

-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
April 13, 2004 6:12:25 PM

It's been working well. But with 9800Pro coming down in price time to upgrade.
April 14, 2004 1:21:29 AM

================
Time to start thinking about dual (but not redundant) power supplies.

Think about it. The 460 watt Enermax has 35 amp, 35 amp, and 33 amp .........
================

:redface: I must admit: I am not an electrician and while I know a few things about hardware I have no idea how to tell if my computer has enough power or not.

P-4 2.4 GHz @ 2.98 GHz
512 Mb RDRAM
eVGA GF FX5700Ultra @ 550MHz clock/1.03 GHz RAM
Dual 120 Gb Barracudas 7000.2
48x CD-ROM
24x Yamaha 3-in-1 CD-RW
SB-Live XGamer
3Com 10/100 NIC
5 case fans
350W A-Open stock PSU (came with my full-tower server case – not sure exactly who the PSU manufacturer is cuz I never looked)
WinXP Pro SP-1

I think I only have one or two unused PSU power connectors left in the box. All others are powering something like a fan or the video card.

I’ve experimented with this system quite a bit. Runs stable and fast enough for me. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic at 1280x960 2xFSAA/4xAF and the rest of the Graphics options ON gives between 28 and 50+ fps (average of around 40 fps). No problems. Reboot from Desktop back to useable Desktop takes about 35 seconds. But I’ve seen posts here which suggest that more power may actually improve overall system performance. So is there a straightforward way to check if the components get as much juice as they need to run at their fullest?

Thanks.
April 14, 2004 1:29:02 AM

Slava how does that 5700 perform?
you have 3dmark2001,03 or aquamark scores?
thats a pretty good OC on that card my friend
April 14, 2004 1:55:02 AM

I like this O/Ced FX 5700 Ultra (it is a GDDR2 version). It is O/Ced (using NVHardPage to unlock hidden nVidia driver settings) so much and stable cuz I think I chose the right card for the job: eVGA cooling solution is very powerful and I find it quiet enough. Aquamark3 score is over 36000 (with CPU at stock speed and about 37000 with CPU + AGP/PCI bus overclocked (BTW I am running AGP 4x since my ASUS P4T-E mobo was made before AGP 8x :o ). So far I have not had any problems or artifacts or crashes or anything. Been stress-testing the system for 7 days now.

See, the system is mix-and-match and before I get myself a hot mobo + nV 6800 Ultra :D  I want to screw as much as I can with this one. I wonder if I can push Aquamark over 40000..... Oh, and before I started tweaking, my Aquamark3 socre (everything at stock speeds) was something like 27500.

Also, I must mention that I was shocked when Sandra 2004 repeatedly said that my 2-years old PC-800 RDRAM performs about 10-15% better than PC-3200 in comparable DDR-based systems.

Yes, I want a nice, well-balanced system where all components are modern, but my current one still kicks serious butt. After all, how much fps does one need when motion pictures are shot at 30 fps? So if I manage to get close to 40000 stable in Aquamark it will be a while before I build a new rig.
April 14, 2004 1:56:42 AM

P4/2.4A overclocked via software. I have to check BIOS when I am done stress-testing (over the weekend probably) but if I remember correctly FSB is at 122 MHz and voltage is 1.67
April 14, 2004 2:46:52 AM

I've never seen any claims that more power improves performance and I don't believe it.

If your system is stable then you probably don't need a more powerful PSU unless you are planning upgrades or overclocking.

Howerver consider this example.

Take a typical generic 350 watt power supply (not necessily yours but a cheapo no-brand model). It might be rated for say 15 amps on the +12 volt rail. You don't know if that is a peak max or continuous max but peak is common. Count on only 70% of that for continuous load. (70% is just a rule of thumb, a conservative safe number). That would make the safe upper limit 10.5 amps (15 * 0.70 = 10.5). Now you take one of the P4 motherboards which derive CPU power from the the 12V rail. I don't recall the power load of a high-end P4 but let's say it's 70 watts. That means 5.8 amps (70 watts / 12 volts = 5.8 amps). Now take a high-end video card. I've heard some of the newer ones draw 60 watts. However, not all of the power is from the 12V rail. Let's call it 60%. That's another 3 amps (60 watts / 12 volts * 60% = 3 amps).

(A lot of these numbers are arbitrary but just bear with me for a moment).

Fans, Let's say you have 2 case fans and 1 power supply fan at approx 0.25 amp each plus one CPU fan. A quiet, lower volume fan might be the same 0.25 amp but let's call it 0.5 amp. (It could be a lot more).

What's the total so far? 5.8 amp for the CPU + 3 amp for the video card + 1.25 amp for CPU fan and case fans. That's about 10 amps so far, just about at that 70% safe limit.

Now factor in disk drives (your guess is as good as mine) and whatever else uses 12V power.

Anyway, it won't be long before you hit the max (whether it be peak or continuous) of that generic power supply.

Want to overclock? A 10% overclock requires at least 10% more power for the CPU or GPU. A 10% voltage increase, another 10%. The increases are compounded. Running hotter means more resistance yet more power. Need more and better fans for cooling? Again more power.

It all adds up fast.

A generic 350-watt power supply might be enough or it might not.


<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b>
April 14, 2004 12:21:11 PM

THANKS! It is much clearer now. Basically, the way to see how much power one needs is to keep that 70% rule of thumb in mind, get power ratings for your components and do some math. Kudos to you man. You should post this on the PSU board under the FAQ sticky.

Much thanks.
April 14, 2004 1:04:58 PM

<b>Quote from FiringSquad :</b>
Another factor that may play against GeForce 6800 Ultra is its extraordinary power requirements. With its two Molex power connector requirement, and NVIDIA’s recommendation of a 480-watt power supply, many enthusiasts will have to upgrade their power supply unit in order to run GeForce 6800 Ultra. This could make a whole lot of money for PSU manufacturers like Antec and Enermax, or it could lead enthusiasts to settle for GeForce 6800. We’ll just have to wait and see how that part plays out.

I hope ATI X800 will be better in this aspect. Reviews will have to add +100$US to all GeForce 6800 price, because no one have a 500 Watts power supply. I can't believe this! I mean, this is a great GPU, but so much heat and power! I'm quite disturbed with these requirements.

--
Would you buy a potato powered chipset?
April 14, 2004 3:30:21 PM

the PCI-EX version will fix this problem...

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy+119% Money Fanboy
GeForce 6800 Ultra--> The Way we thought FX 5800Ultra is meant to be played
THGC's resident Asian and nVboy :D 
April 14, 2004 3:45:44 PM

I just read the Hardware.fr review of the GeForce 6800 and they claim that <A HREF="http://www.hardware.fr/articles/491/page11.html" target="_new">a 480 Watts PSU requirement is way beyond real power needed by this card</A>. They measured that the 6800 use not much more power than the GeForce FX 5950.

Their recommendation 350 Watts minimum PSU in non "overloaded" system. This mean not 3-4 HDD bunch of add-in cards, etc... And 400 Watts PSU (and more) for heavily load PC. They even ask "Why did nVidia use 2 power connector?" One would be enough!

--
Would you buy a potato powered chipset?
April 14, 2004 4:17:23 PM

Probably for the "potential" that it has. Electronic Engineers aren't retarded...if they say it could possibly use that much draw of power...they're probably right. They wouldn't have put two connectors on it when one would have done the job because cost wise it isn't feasible. No manufacturer would make that boneheaded of a mistake unless they honestly needed it in order to appease the masses when the draw of power actually does go through the roof. I'd say its because the card has the potential to use that much power.

----------
<b>It is always brave to say what everyone thinks. </b> <i>Georges Duhamel</i>

TKS
April 14, 2004 4:24:43 PM

Yes... then you need a whole new PCI Express mobo.

-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
April 14, 2004 4:26:21 PM

Oh well, I got a 550watt enermax alrdy, so I should be set. Reading tom's review on 6800U right now.

-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
April 14, 2004 5:14:47 PM

Just upgraded from 420 to 550 but here is the bigger pooch-screw. These new AGP cards are going to require a new mobo type and who knows if it will use the same ATX power plugin. We all may get screwed in getting a differnt PSU.

Mobile Barton 2500+ @ 2420mhz 11x220 1.7v
Asus A7N8X Dlx 440 FSB
1gb Geil GD pc3500 Dual Channel (2-3-3-6)
Segata 80gb SATA 8.5ms seek
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro(420/730)
April 14, 2004 5:27:57 PM

LOL, i don't really care, i can return it to distributor when i feel like it.

-AMD Athlon64 3200+@2300mhz -GAK8N -3x512 Hynix PC3200 ram@192mhz 2.5-3-3-7 -Albatron 5900PV @ 560/1000 -SB Audigy -Adaptec 1210SA Raid -2x120G Seagate SATA150 7200.7 Raid0 -Enermax 460watt psu
April 14, 2004 7:50:34 PM

I can't take credit for the 70% rule because I read it somewhere, myself. However, I can add an opinion or two

It's OK to economize if you aren't doing anything unusual.

Most people can get by with a name brand 350 watt power supply, (well at least before FX6800. We'll see).

What's unusual?

- Overclocking
- Arrays of hard drives
- lots of fans
- high temperature situations. Remember PSU ratings are at 25 degrees C. If your case is running hotter than this then your max power is reduced.
- specific hardware situations

For example a P4 system derives power from the 12V rail. You need a PSU with a good +12V rating.

Athlon motherboards (32-bit Athlons) usually derive CPU power from the +5V rail. +12V power is less critical, or rather is utilized to a lesser degree. (It's still critical). You might choose a different PSU for an Athlon system than you would for a P4.

None of this means it's essential to upgrade the power supply. It just helps if you have an idea how your own components use power.

Pay more attention to the things that use a lot of power, like CPU, GPU, large numbers of PCI cards, large numbers of disk drives, overclocking.

LOL!

If only I would take my own advice. I've been pushing my PSU too far for a long time. I've had stability problems because of it.


<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b>
April 14, 2004 8:07:04 PM

I'm really glad I bought that Antec True 480W now ... at the time it seemed like overkill, but now I'm set!

<i>Money talks. Mine always likes to say "goodbye." :smile: </i>
April 14, 2004 9:02:22 PM

Yeah :o ) I am sure you did not come up with all that on your own. Nevertheless, this info is nowhere to be found on the THG PSU board, so I just thought that it would be helpful if you posted an explanation similar to the one you gave me in PSU sticky... especially now that many ppl will be at a loss re 6800 power requirements.

<font color=green>Stingy people end up paying double. One kick-ass rig that will go strong for three years or one half-good one every year?</font color=green> :cool:
April 14, 2004 11:26:32 PM

I just saw a preview of the FX6800 (well, 7:10 PM EST) on TechTV's The Screen Savers.

Not as bad as you had us fearing. 12 amps, two non-shared molex connectors. That's all. What's that 100 watts? Your 550 watt Enermax should handle it easily.

The $500 (USD) bothers me more than the power requirements.

I'm ready for a price slide for lesser products.

Do you think the Radeon 9800 (non-pro) will drop to $100 USD by summer time? <b>[dreams wistfully]</b>

<b>Update</b>
Sh-e-e-e-t, what was I thinking? That's 144 watts.

Hey that's a lot of heat!


<b>56K, slow and steady does not win the race on internet!</b><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by phsstpok on 04/14/04 07:47 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
!