GF6800 PCI or AGP

I understand that the new PCI Express cards might not have a huge leap in performance over Agp 8x, But is it worth it to buy a Geforce 6800 PCI-X Instead of the AGP, Just so in the future if they utilize the technology better you can get more out of the card? In theory is the pci-x card going to be better than the agp8 card? Does this work in any pci slot or are thery going to require special pci-x slots?

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  1. Yea, you can just plug the pci-x card into your pci slot. Dnt need a new mothboard.

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  2. PCI-EX requires PCI-EX, period. AND PCI-X is not PCI-EX (aka PCX or formerly 3[D]GIO)

    If you are building a new rig to last the next 1-3 years like me then PCI-EX is the best bet, otherwise for this generation you will likely see very little difference in anything other than AIW or nVCinema series rigs for video editing.

    And you could always do what RF suggests and try plugging it into your PCI slot. Lemme know how that goes.


    - You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
  3. Whats the diffrence between pci-x and pci-ex?

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  4. <A HREF="http://www.pcisig.com/news_room/faqs" target="_new">THIS</A> should help you figure it out.

    PCI-X, is nothing new and appears mainly on servers and other 'big' rigs, like my editing setup. It's usually used for scsi raid and gigabit ethernet cards.

    PCI-EX is the new connector which includes the PCI-EX-G 16X standard that will be adopted by most graphics cards. There is also PCI-EX 1X - 4X which will appear as far smaller connectors.


    - You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
  5. Ok so the pci-ex is whats in question here. Now does one need a specific slot to gain these *wonderous* bandwith gains of the pci ex, or does it just go in any pci slot and work its magic?


    Q16: Are PCI Express Architecture slots intended to co-exist in systems with PCI/PCI-X slots?
    A16: Yes. PCI Express Architecture slots can co-exist with PCI/PCI-X slots, and, as mentioned earlier, the PCISIG is developing a PCI Express Translation Bridge Specification to define an industry-standard method of bridging between a PCI Express Base-compliant interface and a PCI 2.3/3.0 or PCI-X 1.0/2.0-compliant interface. Actual system implementations will be determined by OEMs and IHVs.

    Q17: Is the PCI Express Architecture intended to replace AGP?
    A17: Yes. One of the targeted initial applications of the PCI Express Architecture is for use as a graphics I/O attach point. The first generation of PCI Express Architecture provides twice the bandwidth of AGP8X. Additionally, the PCI Express Architecture supports multiple graphics I/O devices in a single system. The PCI-SIG actively promotes the PCI Express Architecture as a replacement for AGP.

    Ok so lets see if I assume correctly, PCI-EX is replacing agp for good eventually, so it would be better go get the pci-ex card, but im garnering that in order to benefit you need the specific pci-ex slot which dosnt exist on current mobo's?


    Asus p4c800 Deluxe,1 Gig Mushkin PC3200 400 Mhz(2-2-2 cas),Pentium 4 3.0 512k 800Fsb HT, Thermaltake Xaser III, Thermaltake Spark 4,WD 80 Gig 7200,GeForce 4 MX440 (PCI),Nec Multi-Sync LCD 1830
    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Rx7000 on 04/26/04 01:36 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
  6. im under the impression that youll need a new wonderous slot for the card and pci express to work its magic. also Nvidia is rumored to be making a agp / pci express adapter that will enable you to use either slot.

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  7. No boards have a PCI-ex yet do they? You would prob have to get a new board and a CPU in order to use it.

    P4c 2.6@3.25
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  8. Quote:
    No boards have a PCI-ex yet do they?

    Not yet.

    Quote:
    You would prob have to get a new board and a CPU in order to use it.



    Not sure about the CPU. Chances are you can migrate your older CPU to the new PCI-E board but you will need a new board for sure to use a genuine PCI-E card.

    <font color=green>Stingy people end up paying double. One kick-ass rig that will go strong for three years or one half-decent one every year?</font color=green> :cool:
  9. Quote:
    Now does one need a specific slot

    Yep totally different from all other slots. It's also serial, not parallel.

    And even the PCI-EX G16X is also different from the 1-8X slots, look at the top of this thread for an example; <A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3411" target="_new">http://www.xbitlabs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3411</A>

    also there's this picture from Anad's article (worth a read for more info too);<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.html?i=1830&p=8" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.html?i=1830&p=8</A>

    and at PCStats;<A HREF="http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1087&page=5" target="_new">http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1087&page=5</A>

    That's all I have bookmarked here.

    Also there's some pics of P4 based boards from CeBit @ digit-life;
    <A HREF="http://www.digit-life.com/archive.shtml?dl20040319" target="_new">http://www.digit-life.com/archive.shtml?dl20040319</A>
    <A HREF="http://www.digit-life.com/archive.shtml?dl20040320" target="_new">http://www.digit-life.com/archive.shtml?dl20040320</A>
    <A HREF="http://www.digit-life.com/archive.shtml?dl20040318" target="_new">http://www.digit-life.com/archive.shtml?dl20040318</A>

    And PCI-EX is replacing AGP by the end of the year. The X800 and GF6800 are the last of the AGP cards according to ATI and nV. And yes you would nee a PCI-EX mobo, and as I just linked above, they do exist, they just aren't in stores yet (but then again neither are the graphics cards), expect them around june.

    And, <b>onesaint</b>, nV is not making a bridge adapter like we initially thought of ATI's place for the R400, but a Bridge chip. This will not allow one to work with the other, it will only allow AGP CORE to work with PCI-EX card slots, not AGP card to work with PCI-EX slots, if that were the case, then I'd definitely get an NV45 regardless of performance.


    - You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
  10. Well it does look like it will need a new CPU too, but that's simply due to the fact that they are the latest and newest chips (socket 775 and 939). There may be older Xeon and Opteron based solutions, but it's unlikely they will make them backwards compatible except as niche boards for specific markets.


    - You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
  11. Looks like ive actually touched upon a semi important subject here.

    "This will not allow one to work with the other, it will only allow AGP CORE to work with PCI-EX card slots, not AGP card to work with PCI-EX slots"

    So basically if I buy the agp card I cant convert it to pci-ex, but It would be counter-productive to buy the pci-ex because my board dosnt have a slot.

    What is agp core?

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  12. He just means the GPU on the card. nVidia is making a bridge chip to allow manufacturers to use existing silicon in upcoming PCI-EX vid cards. This is NOT a converter that can be used after-market, it's just another chip that'll already be on the vid card when you get it.

    He that but looketh on a plate of ham and eggs to lust after it, hath already committed breakfast with it in his heart. -C.S. Lewis

    <i>Edit - oops</i><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by confoundicator on 04/26/04 07:26 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
  13. But this chip wont make a agp card compatible with pci ex slot?

    Asus p4c800 Deluxe,1 Gig Mushkin PC3200 400 Mhz(2-2-2 cas),Pentium 4 3.0 512k 800Fsb HT, Thermaltake Xaser III, Thermaltake Spark 7+,WD 80 Gig 7200,GeForce 4 MX440 (PCI),Nec Multi-Sync LCD 1830
  14. Like I said it's based on the core(vpu/gpu), not just the card, it's added to the PCB between the core and the the pci-ex interface.

    Here's a good description from THG with a nice pic which;
    <A HREF="http://www20.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040310/pcie-07.html" target="_new">http://www20.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040310/pcie-07.html</A>

    No way that chips simply going to be added to other cards with a little AS5.

    Also with it expecting AGP16X speed on the core's end of things there no way I can see it being adopted by a reseller to make a physcial bridge part. I think that would cause more problems than it would solve.


    - You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
  15. Okay. I am officially confused. Is it correct that the purpose of nVIDIA’s HSI chip is simply to allow the use of current GPUs in the new cards with the <font color=red>new</font color=red> (non-AGP) PCI-E interface?

    The description of the AGP8x nV6800 features mentions full PCI-E support. But how is this possible if the card is AGP8x and uses a standard AGP interface connector? Is this to say that there will be hybrid AGP/PCI-E motherboards? I have read THG report on PCI-E twice and I am even more confused now than I was before.

    One thing the report mentions is that it is unlikely that PCI-E will mean a huge difference for games/graphics at least in the foreseeable future. This much is clear.

    It is also clear that PCI-E motherboards will likely require new everything: memory, CPU, PC case, etc. (and it seems to me that the full line of well-tested PCI-E compliant components will not be available at reasonable prices for at least a year or two). But what is the deal with PCI-E support via the bridge on the AGP8x nV6800?

    I am now thinking that the way to go is <font color=red>NOT</font color=red> to wait for PCI-E to become a widely accepted new standard which replaces AGP since this will take a long time; and it will take even longer before there is a noticeable performance benefit for games and graphics to be derived from PCI-E.

    I am now thinking that a good AGP8x motherboard + nV6800 (or this next ATI card if it beats nV6800) is a reasonable solution that will go strong for 2+ years - long enough for PCI-E to replace AGP.

    Am I seen this right or I am completely misguided here?


    <font color=green>Stingy people end up paying double. One kick-ass rig that will go strong for three years or one half-decent one every year?</font color=green> :cool:
  16. The only problem with that Slava is that all the worthwhile CPUs coming out will probably be on PCI-X motherboards in the next year or so... so why NOT get a PCI-X video card? Then when you upgrade again you can bring your card with you...

    PCI-X is the future and it's coming fast, so having an AGP card kind of limits your options.

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  17. My apologies, but your post looks illogical to me, if I read it right. Maybe I just misunderstood. Please explain.

    You say that “all the worthwhile CPUs coming out will probably be on PCI-X motherboards”. But first, we have a “will probably” here. Second, we have PCI-E motherboards. (you did mean PCI-E, right?)

    Currently only AGP cards are available and there are no PCI-E motherboards. You say: “so why NOT get a PCI-X video card? eerr . . . get it and use it in . . . what? In an AGP motherboard?

    You say: “Then when you upgrade again you can bring your card with you” eeerr . . . upgrade to what exactly?

    It seems to me that what you meant to say was this: Wait till PCI-E cards and motherboards come out. Then buy a new mobo, RAM, CPU, VGA card and Sound card (since current AGP and PCI interface is different and current cards will not fit in PCI-E slots), in other words build a PCI-E computer from scratch . . . but wait for a year to be able to do this . . . But in this case what would I be upgrading to once I built a machine like this and where would I be taking my PCI-E video card to “when I upgrade again”?

    It seems to me that the problem is somewhat different. As mentioned in the THG PCI-E article (link in one of the posts above) the all-new PCI-E architecture will demand all-new components while it is far from obvious that there will be any tangible benefits in 3d games’ performance. It is also unclear when the full range of PCI-E compliant components will be in stores at reasonable prices. You said yourself “in the next year or so”. So what were you saying exactly?

    <font color=green>Stingy people end up paying double. One kick-ass rig that will go strong for three years or one half-decent one every year?</font color=green> :cool:
  18. Quote:
    Is it correct that the purpose of nVIDIA’s HSI chip is simply to allow the use of current GPUs in the new cards with the new (non-AGP) PCI-E interface?

    Yes.

    Quote:
    The description of the AGP8x nV6800 features mentions full PCI-E support.

    Which is PR BS. The only true fully PCI-EX card from nv will come out later. It may have some PCI-EX support, but won't be 100% PCI-EX. But there's no indication that will make any difference yet so the PR may not matter since there may be no appreciable difference, but no one knows yet.

    Quote:
    But how is this possible if the card is AGP8x and uses a standard AGP interface connector? Is this to say that there will be hybrid AGP/PCI-E motherboards?

    No, the connector will be PCI-EX, not AGP, the only part AGP connects WITHIN THE PCB to the HSI chip which then connects to the PCI-EX tab. And while there could be PCI-EX and AGP boards, there will likely NOT be any, for economic and marketing reasons. You'd have to make sure your chipset supported both at the same time, and likely no onbe will go that route because it means extra money, and who's going to spend significantly more money for and AGP/PCI-EX board over just a plain FAST PCI-EX or AGP board? Just like you CAN have 2 AGP slots on any of our current and older boards, but no one ever felt the expense was worth it. Also like it is unlikely that there will be dual PCI-X 16X boards in the near future either.

    Quote:
    This much is clear.

    The think it's clear, but no one knows yet, it's not just a change to twice the speed of AGP. Likely no impact but I doubt Lars knew for sure at the time of writing (unless he had an X880 in his hands/rig).

    Quote:
    It is also clear that PCI-E motherboards will likely require new everything: memory, CPU, PC case, etc. (and it seems to me that the full line of well-tested PCI-E compliant components will not be available at reasonable prices for at least a year or two).

    Not necessarily new memory, alot of them are DDR400 compliant (many socket 939 solutions are DDR400 based [some have DDR and DDR2 support simultaneously, like the initial SDRAM/DDR boards, which is easier to institute than AGP+PCI_EX16X]). PC case, nope, most are still ATX, not the new BTX. As for CPU, well that was the case anyways, heck my board doesn't support the latest Bartons, let alone AMD64. The PCI-EX compliant parts are ready to be sprung on the world, the PCX line of the last generation nV parts have been waiting for a while, and nV and Creative have soundcards waiting to go. So the wait isn't as long as you think. Reasonable, nothing's 'reasonable' in this area of upgrading, we are talking about bleeding edge for the first few months, just like everything else. Were AMD64s all that cheap first month?).

    Quote:
    I am now thinking that the way to go is NOT to wait for PCI-E to become a widely accepted new standard which replaces AGP since this will take a long time

    ATI and nV don't agree with you, and neither do I. Once they start, he end is near for the old standards. They'll be legacy PCI slots, but AGP will go very quick indeed, and unlike PCI graphics cards, there will be little reason to keep the old AGP going for as long.

    Quote:
    I am now thinking that a good AGP8x motherboard + nV6800 (or this next ATI card if it beats nV6800) is a reasonable solution that will go strong for 2+ years

    It may play games for 2+ years, just like GF3s/R8500s still play games now, but they won't be anywhere near the forefront of the buyers' guides by even next year (except for as a foot not like the FX5600PCI and R9100PCI).

    Quote:
    Am I seen this right or I am completely misguided here?

    I just don't think you realize how behind all of this Intel, nV, and ATI are. Look at their roadmaps, there are no AGP cards in them beyond this fall.


    - You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
  19. Close... What I mean to say is, if you've got a half decent setup now you should probably wait to upgrade until both PCI-X video cards and motherboards are available, lest you get stuck with something that you can't possibly use the next time you upgrade.

    Not a huge factor for everyone admittedly, but it's a strategy worth considering. It has worked for me so far...

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  20. Grape and Cleeve, thanks to both of ya. I think I finally understand what’s going on there. I also found some info about PCI-E and PCI. It appears that the first generation of PCI-E boards will allow PCI-E and PCI to co-exist. Which means that we can use our current sound/network cards in the rigs.

    <A HREF="http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1087" target="_new">http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1087</A>

    If it is also true that we can use our current memory and boxes then all we really need is mobo + VGA + (likely) CPU to step into the XXI century? That does not sound like a terribly bad deal to me. Still I hope that those who recently bought their P4EEs and other hi-end CPUs will be able to move them into their new PCI-E systems otherwise PCI-E will take a very long time to take over because few people/organizations are rich/stupid enough to jump at the chance of upgrading their kick-butt $3000 AGP rigs to PCI-E.

    <font color=green>Stingy people end up paying double. One kick-ass rig that will go strong for three years or one half-decent one every year?</font color=green> :cool:
  21. Exactly. That's my strategy this time too.

    Wait for the 939 to come out, with PCI-EX and hopefully it will let me limp into 2006 or soemthing. Sure I may WANT to build a whole new rig before then, but it's nice to have the options.


    - You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
  22. Also remember that if you are OK with waiting a little, then you could get a new mobo with "ok" integrated graphics (unfortunately the RS480 will not be DX9/PS2.0 like originally thought but another DX8.1 like the RS300). Integrated graphics in the new rig sucks, but if you need to wait for the graphics card of choice it may be a good pay in installements solution, especially if you have an old rig like me you can still game on. I wouldn't usually recommend integrated for anyone, but for those really stuck, could be ok for a month or so (wouldn't recommend more or your eyes may lose the sharpness they developed with this past generation of cards :evil: ).


    - You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
  23. What I'm <i>hoping</i> is that at least one of the first crop of PCI-X socket 939 boards will have both an AGP and PCI-X graphics slot, so I can migrate my AGP card to the new motherboard, and get a PCI-X videocard when I feel like it later.

    Just an anecdote, it's been over two years ago now that I bought my K7S5A socket-A motherboard. One of the selling features for me was the dual SDR and DDR option on the board... when I first migrated to it I bought my 256 megs of 133Mhz SDRAM with me from my old box. A long while later I bought a 512 meg stick of DDR and retired the SDRAM and got a slight performance boost, then later another stick of 512. This has been the longest lasting motherboard I've ever had and still delivers pretty damn good performance overclocked. This is the type of strategy I plan to repeat if someone offers a socket 939 mobo with both AGP and PCI-X graphics slots.

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  24. I originally thought that way too (*and still do), unfortunately there is the harsh reality that it will cost the mobo makers a fair deal extra to support both. Unless they think they can recoup that expense they likely won't offer it. Of all the early boards and layouts I've seen so far, non are offering both. While it likely only costs them less than $5 a board it would mean for their accounting guys they'd have to charg $50 or something extra to make it an equivalent return. I'm not sure how many would pay that kind of premium. I would, just for the sheer flexibility, especially when investigating things, but most wouldn't I think.


    - You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
  25. "Also with it expecting AGP16X speed on the core's end of things there no way I can see it being adopted by a reseller to make a physcial bridge part. I think that would cause more problems than it would solve."

    Thanks for your help and info Ape, and everyone, your knowledge is greatly respected and appreciated.


    Asus p4c800 Deluxe,1 Gig Mushkin PC3200 400 Mhz(2-2-2 cas),Pentium 4 3.0 512k 800Fsb HT, Thermaltake Xaser III, Thermaltake Spark 7+,WD 80 Gig 7200,GeForce 4 MX440 (PCI),Nec Multi-Sync LCD 1830
  26. It looks like I kinda got screwed building a new system in the middle of a big technology transitition. Im just gonna take my loses and get the agp card, build another system in 2 years. Im coming from a 667 celeron compac from like 4 years ago so, this computer now with a 6800 should keep me happy for a little while.

    Still I will say im kinda pissed with the turn of events :\

    Asus p4c800 Deluxe,1 Gig Mushkin PC3200 400 Mhz(2-2-2 cas),Pentium 4 3.0 512k 800Fsb HT, Thermaltake Xaser III, Thermaltake Spark 7+,WD 80 Gig 7200,GeForce 4 MX440 (PCI),Nec Multi-Sync LCD 1830
  27. Your computer should be fine for a while. Even the AGP based GF6800 and X800 will be fine, more than fine even. People with a Radeon 9800np/Pro/xt will be fine 'til well into 2005, and maybe 2006. And should you find a little bit of strain, then expect the GF6800SuperUltra(whatever the top is) and X800XT+ to be pretty cheap come this time next year, so either way I think you're ok. Thinks may get faster and more versatile, but your rig should be fine for the forseable future IMO.

    Heck I'd say even my XP2000+ with an R9600Pro would be fine until 2005. Nothing THAT intensive coming out, even HL2, D]|[ and Stalker should all play just fine. Maybe at medium settings, but just fine thank you. OF course I've been itching for an upgrade long before I even got this (I got this BECAUSE the ClawHammer was delayed! :mad: ).


    - You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
  28. If I snuck by with a 667 celeron with no agp slot for 3 years, then Im sure I can streth this one two =D

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