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ATi have just been caught cheating.

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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May 16, 2004 10:52:22 PM

The X800 is using a filtering cheat to achieve better performance in games & benchmarks. Pretty much what nVidia has been doing the past year. You need to read <A HREF="http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12486&pos..." target="_new">this</A> beyond3d thread for the details...it's gotten pretty intense. Our own Lars from THG is giving his two cents in the thread also.

<A HREF="http://rmitz.org/AYB3.swf" target="_new">All your base are belong to us.</A>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=2216718" target="_new"><b>3DMark03</b></A>

More about : ati caught cheating

May 16, 2004 11:41:44 PM

Now where are all the zealot's using terms like "nVidiot's" now? :) 

This will be funny to watch :) 
*finds out coke and pocorn and prepares for loads of laughter*

Terracide - "The one with the last laugh..." ;) 



Don't pretend - BE!
May 16, 2004 11:47:11 PM

You're just gonna hear the crickets chirp cause most of the people here would suck Ati's cock blindly. Meh, I guess I'll join ya tho...where you keeping the chairs, I also got some beer if u get bored with that coke...

SEX is like math. Add the bed, subtract the clothes, divide the legs, and hope you dont multiply
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May 16, 2004 11:51:52 PM

Beer sounds good too ;) 
/cheers
Take a seat, and let the flaming begin ;)  *L*

*leans back and awaits the "battle"*

Terracide - Some peeps gotta feel backstabbed? *OUCH* ;)  *L*

Don't pretend - BE!
May 17, 2004 12:00:19 AM

exactly people should be punished what has happened, i happen to like ATi but i think what they did was wrong, plain and simple.

"This Steel ain't stainless, Your bloodstains are all over this steel."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Messianic Maniac.}=-</A>
<font color=green>{FLM}</font color=green>
a b U Graphics card
May 17, 2004 12:02:48 AM

Yep not looking good.

At first I thought. like I told you, it was like <A HREF="http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/radeon/r9800pro-ue...." target="_new">the Trilinear issue from earlier UT2K3 results</A>, which was a game issue that could be overriden unlike the NV3X brilinear (which can now be disabled on the NV40 series). But nope this is more widespread (surprised to see it in SS:SE, not so surprised to see it in UT2K4) and definitely not meeting the usual quality levels.

Funny how someone mentioned Quack, when there's more issues out there like FartCry. Sure it makes the rounds, but really few people seem to take notice, which is why floptimizations continue. Sad to see that floptimizeing will become the accepted norm. I'm still waiting to see what the reponse to all this is, but it better be good, because it sure doesn't look good.

In the end it simply tarnishes the hollier than thou attitude, and means that any complaints about floptimizations won't hold the weight the once did.

I wish I could follow it more, but hopefully by late tonight /tomorrow morning there'll be more info.

<b>EDIT</b>:
<i><font color=blue>I use the term "nVidiot" all the time...but I'm also the one crying "foul" here. Wrong is wrong, and this is extremely disheartening....</i></font color=blue>

Ditto on BOTH counts. nVidiots are still dumba$$es, and so are FanATIcs, but that doesn't make THIS right.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 05/16/04 06:05 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
a b U Graphics card
May 17, 2004 12:09:48 AM

Quote:
i happen to like ATi but i think what they did was wrong, plain and simple.

Exactly, and one of the reasons I liked them was that they didn't use floptimizations. Now they're not better and really that sucks for everyone. So now ATI, nVidia, SiS and XGI all have their hands dirty. Maybe VIA's the answer? NAH, it's not THAT bad! :wink:


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
May 17, 2004 12:25:52 AM

Quote:

Maybe VIA's the answer? NAH, it's not THAT bad!

LMAO

"This Steel ain't stainless, Your bloodstains are all over this steel."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Messianic Maniac.}=-</A>
<font color=green>{FLM}</font color=green>
May 17, 2004 12:40:03 AM

I want IQ comparison....if there is no difference i dont realy care......

Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/360) , 512mb pc3200 (5-3-3-2), Asus A7N8X-X
May 17, 2004 12:46:05 AM

Quote:
I want IQ comparison....if there is no difference i dont realy care.

From what is being said, there are noticable differences during gameplay...but hi definition stillshots do not shed any light on the truth.
Only those with X800 cards can participate in the test's.

<A HREF="http://rmitz.org/AYB3.swf" target="_new">All your base are belong to us.</A>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=2216718" target="_new"><b>3DMark03</b></A>
May 17, 2004 1:39:11 AM

New gen stink...i'll keep my card until the gen after this one....

Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/360) , 512mb pc3200 (5-3-3-2), Asus A7N8X-X
May 17, 2004 2:16:59 AM

ARG!

<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate
May 17, 2004 2:51:08 AM

So its just a small thing?

Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/360) , 512mb pc3200 (5-3-3-2), Asus A7N8X-X
May 17, 2004 3:02:13 AM

At the end of the day, Nvdiots will only buy Nvidia cards, whilst the more mature and discerning ATI supporter, will buy whatever brand of card that gives us the most bang for the buck...Nvidia owners remind me of the people who bought Beta video recorders so long ago, wandering aimlessly through the video store aisle of life looking for that one movie that wasn't on VHS so that they could hold it aloft to prove beta was the best, so so sad...my heart goes out to them. So ATI cheated, hmm, to have a manufacturer make unsupported claims against anything that they make is certainly unusual ( eg: the Pinto is a great car, fantastic for winter motoring with a built in heater in the back !). ATI do it once or twice and the Nvdiots cry foul, Nvidia does it and it's called driver optimisations. Who gives a toss at the end of the day, after all, thats why we have THG and the like, thats why we have forumns so that the informed buyer ( read ATI fan) can pick and choose what is available and to find the BS in there claims. Me, I'll buy whatever performs the best, I don't care, but those poor lost souls with there leaf blowers and dust busters trying to show the world that a 120 decibal fan is proof of power. I still remiember when the leaf blower came out, 8 pipelines with 6 of them dedicated to fan noise.

sigh.

he he, now flame on....


Gary

....................
<font color=red>AMD 2700 XP<font color=red>
<font color=red>Gecube 9800 pro Extreme<font color=red>
<font color=blue>ASUS A7N8X deluxe<font color=blue>
<font color=blue>1024 meg Dual Channel DDR 3200<font color=blue>
....................
May 17, 2004 3:15:58 AM

All those cheating / optimisation thing start getting on my nerve. My next videocard is gonna be home made......

1 frame per years on any game..... BUT PERFECT IMAGE QUALITY.

Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/360) , 512mb pc3200 (5-3-3-2), Asus A7N8X-X
May 17, 2004 3:21:06 AM

Get some crayons and construction paper. Render everything by hand.

<font color=red>_______________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate
a b U Graphics card
May 17, 2004 3:28:40 AM

That's it, ATI's getting punished! I won't be buying any ATI products for at least 6 months!

eh, wtf, I got my AIW 9600 Pro free, I haven't actually bought any new video cards for...3 years or so.

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
May 17, 2004 3:29:06 AM

And then they'd argue who makes the best crayons....

....................
<font color=red>AMD 2700 XP<font color=red>
<font color=red>Gecube 9800 pro Extreme<font color=red>
<font color=blue>ASUS A7N8X deluxe<font color=blue>
<font color=blue>1024 meg Dual Channel DDR 3200<font color=blue>
....................
May 17, 2004 3:47:31 AM

lol i love you crash, you always get free sh|t.

i have been thru three different versions of the 9800p (BBA 9800p. Sapphire 9800pro, and currently BBA 9800pAIW)

I have no complaints, now about the topic at hand i do have complaints. why would you need to cheat when you are already ruling the market(with quality wise at least, i dont know if the are winning the monetary war.)?

"This Steel ain't stainless, Your bloodstains are all over this steel."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Messianic Maniac.}=-</A>
<font color=green>{FLM}</font color=green>
May 17, 2004 4:06:28 AM

Is it a matter of whether they think they're cheating?

*sigh*

<font color=red>_____________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate
<font color=blue>{FDA}
May 17, 2004 4:20:50 AM

they knew what they were doing,

theres no way you can honestly say they didnt.

"This Steel ain't stainless, Your bloodstains are all over this steel."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Messianic Maniac.}=-</A>
<font color=green>{FLM}</font color=green>
May 17, 2004 4:21:49 AM

I deny everything.

<font color=red>_____________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate
<font color=blue>{FDA}
May 17, 2004 4:28:52 AM

you plead the 5th?

"This Steel ain't stainless, Your bloodstains are all over this steel."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Messianic Maniac.}=-</A>
<font color=green>{FLM}</font color=green>
May 17, 2004 4:30:32 AM

Redistributing the companies moralstic values to justify software enhancements through driver optimisations in order to bring about a increase in a synthetic benchmarking enviroment isn't cheating.... it's only cheating if you get caught,

....................
<font color=red>AMD 2700 XP<font color=red>
<font color=red>Gecube 9800 pro Extreme<font color=red>
<font color=blue>ASUS A7N8X deluxe<font color=blue>
<font color=blue>1024 meg Dual Channel DDR 3200<font color=blue>
....................
May 17, 2004 4:38:22 AM

lol, you must be a fan of johnny cochran?

"This Steel ain't stainless, Your bloodstains are all over this steel."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Messianic Maniac.}=-</A>
<font color=green>{FLM}</font color=green>
May 17, 2004 4:55:37 AM

If i cant see any diffenrence in IQ i dont call that cheating...i call that making better driver and not rendering what is totaly unusefull.

Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/360) , 512mb pc3200 (5-3-3-2), Asus A7N8X-X
May 17, 2004 4:56:18 AM

Thanks,

....................
<font color=red>AMD 2700 XP<font color=red>
<font color=red>Gecube 9800 pro Extreme<font color=red>
<font color=blue>ASUS A7N8X deluxe<font color=blue>
<font color=blue>1024 meg Dual Channel DDR 3200<font color=blue>
....................
May 17, 2004 4:56:56 AM

Quote:
So now ATI, nVidia, SiS and XGI all have their hands dirty. Maybe VIA's the answer?

I think I'll be getting an Intel Extreme Graphics 3 video card!
May 17, 2004 5:01:01 AM

hey,
its all a matter of opinion right?



"This Steel ain't stainless, Your bloodstains are all over this steel."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Messianic Maniac.}=-</A>
<font color=green>{FLM}</font color=green>
May 17, 2004 5:31:51 AM

WOOT!!!!!

that's all i'm going to say......

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy+119% Money Fanboy
GeForce 6800 Ultra--> The Way we thought FX 5800Ultra is meant to be played
THGC's resident Asian and nVboy :D 
May 17, 2004 5:53:19 AM

nvidiot... :tongue: just kidding

"This Steel ain't stainless, Your bloodstains are all over this steel."
<A HREF="http://www.cameronwilliamson.com" target="_new">-={Messianic Maniac.}=-</A>
<font color=green>{FLM}</font color=green>
May 17, 2004 5:58:07 AM

Nvidia sucks more still!

<font color=red>_____________________________________________</font color=red>
Nov. 6, 1971: "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals"

- John Kerry, a Presidential Candidate
<font color=blue>{FDA}
a b U Graphics card
May 17, 2004 6:27:37 AM

See the point isn't just whether YOU or I can tell the difference, but if there are shortcuts being taken (that are quantifiable [IQ diff]) that render head to head comparisons invalid. Whether or not this was already the case is a bit irrelevant since ATI said they didn't do this kind of optimisation.

The point that has been made here before about brillinear, and that GW appeared to be making a few posts back was that even when YOU the consumer/gamer/owner decide to apply full trilinear filtering and are given something less. Not because it's impossible, just because it gives better benchmark results.
Having the option to turn on/off brilinear (like 'temporal AA') would've be the way to go, this way it looks like they tried to sneak it past people simply to make the initial X800 results look better. And it appears that it wasn't really necessary so it just hurts their reputation for nothing.

It's not just about noticing it, it's about playing fair, and giving your users control of their own cards/games.

If you don't really notice that you aren't getting the advertised 45mpg, cause you think it must be your driving habits keeping you from achieving it, would it matter if the car companies cheated you because they ran the tests downhill but forgot to mention it?

This is a step backwards that's for sure. Regardless of what nV has done, and regardless of whether this is equal IQ to the nV's (which also use brilinear in some cases mainly NV3X), it's still not up to the standards that ATI said they would continue to uphold. Remember that brilinear in UT2K3 can be turned off in the GF6800, so even there that's nV deciding to give their users back some control. Not that there aren't other areas to work on, but that's a different story.

I'll still wait for ATI's response before passing final judgement, but this doesn't look good, and at best could be called a bad rvier error, which is NOT a good thing.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
May 17, 2004 12:43:41 PM

A bit of sarcarm, a bit of reality and you have an agcheavin post. :smile:

--
Lookin' to fill that <font color=blue>GOD</font color=blue> shape hole!
May 17, 2004 2:05:53 PM

<b>I</b> just think its something totaly un-usefull to whine about......i watched some comparison picture and i could not see a [-peep-] difference.....

<b>I</b> realy prefer my card to run this mode than to have it run full trilinear (and losing fps) and having no difference on IQ.

Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/360) , 512mb pc3200 (5-3-3-2), Asus A7N8X-X<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by coylter on 05/17/04 01:22 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
May 17, 2004 3:24:20 PM

Seriously coylter, pack your sh*t and get the f*ck out of our forums.

I'm upset about the whole issue too. I'm not against optimizations being available, but it should be an option. Noone likes things being done behind their back, especially when you're the one funding them!

Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too;)
Rachel:) : why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?
May 17, 2004 3:26:13 PM

Quote:
<b>By Coylter:</b>
I just think its something totaly un-usefull to whine about......i watched some comparison picture and i could not see a [-peep-] difference.....

I realy prefer my card to run this mode than to have it run full trilinear (and losing fps) and having no difference on IQ.


You miss the points, sir:

1- Speed enhancing optimizations are nice, <b>AS LONG AS THE END USER CAN TURN THEM OFF IF THEY WANT TO GET FULL QUALITY</b>.
When you're paying $500 for a videocard, you better damn well be able to see the quality you pay for.

2- If a line is not drawn, <b>AT WHAT POINT WILL THE IMAGE QUALITY SACRIFICE STOP?</b>
Sacrificing image quality for framerates is OK a little bit, but not alot? Where do you draw a line?
The only workable solution is to make it absolutely unacceptable when the driver is set to the highest quality level. Anything else is cheating, quite frankly.

________________
<b>Radeon <font color=red>9500 PRO</b></font color=red> <i>(hardmodded 9500, o/c 340/310)</i>
<b>AthlonXP <font color=red>~2600+</b></font color=red> <i>(2400+ @ 2145 Mhz)</i>
<b>3dMark03: <font color=red>4,055</b>
May 17, 2004 3:29:33 PM

Nice real nice. The 2 big vig guys. nVidia and ATI have to relate to cheating. With all their news cards. I'm still using my ole TI4200. So when will the cheating stop? :frown: I'm not holding my breath. It stinks when the have to fudge their numbers to get you to buy their cards.
May 17, 2004 3:30:44 PM

No way not VIA!!!!!!!
May 17, 2004 3:32:25 PM

You will get your next ATI for free too. :smile:
May 17, 2004 3:35:53 PM

It's a question of where you draw the line. YOU might not be able to tell the difference, but someone who's spent $10,000 on a monitor might (hypothetical of course - no-one's that stupid are they? :wink: ). So if you say that's ok by you, what if next time they include a Floptimization that's invisible @640x480 on a fuzzy 14" monitor from 1995, but is glaringly obvious to you. is <i>that</i> acceptable?

I have no problems with any driver tweaks like these, as long as they are completely open and tell us about them. aTI could almost instantly lose a reputation they've taken a couple of years to build up, and that's very sad.

---
Epox 8RDA+ rev1.1 w/ Custom NB HS
XP1700+ @205x11 (~2.26Ghz), 1.575Vcore
2x256Mb Corsair PC3200LL 2-2-2-4
Sapphire 9800Pro 420/744
May 17, 2004 3:38:26 PM

did Matrox ever cheat with their Parhelia? Looks like they could be the way to go! :cool: Dire performance, but at least it's <i>honest</i> dire performance...

---
Epox 8RDA+ rev1.1 w/ Custom NB HS
XP1700+ @205x11 (~2.26Ghz), 1.575Vcore
2x256Mb Corsair PC3200LL 2-2-2-4
Sapphire 9800Pro 420/744
a b U Graphics card
May 17, 2004 4:52:16 PM

I'll have to check the 8 ball to confirm!

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>
May 17, 2004 5:13:20 PM

Sure they should put the option to render full trilinear.
That kind of optimisation dont bother <b>ME</b>. Nvidia would do the same thing i would not bother...as long as i cant see a visual difference. Dang stop bashing i am just giving my opinion.

Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/360) , 512mb pc3200 (5-3-3-2), Asus A7N8X-X
May 17, 2004 6:23:58 PM

I sorta agree with Coylter... Before you burn me at the stake as well, hear me out!!!

I do think it's wrong for ATI to implement these optimizations without saying so, especially since it's against their company policy.

That being said, I still feel that as long as there is NO IQ difference, then it's a good thing that they have these optimizations. If a game can look perfect and run faster, than that's fine with me.

In terms of benchmarking, depending on how you look at it, it does make things a little unfair, maybe. Think about it, if ATI can render perfect IQ without stressing the card as much, then why should it have to sacrifice performance.
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that it's becoming more and more difficult to benchmark graphic cards evenly. With vendor/card specific codepaths that run the game differently (FarCry), it is more and more difficult to do a pure apples to apples comparison. It's also not necessarily right to do an apples to apples comparison with two cards implementing different technology and running the games differently.
At the end of the day, give me the card that runs fastest with the best Image Quality in the games that I play and I'll be happy.

P.S. I haven't seen any screenies, so if there is any IQ difference, ignore everything I said about not minding ATI (or anyone else for that matter) using optimizations to make the game run better.
May 17, 2004 6:27:20 PM

I feel less alone.

Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/360) , 512mb pc3200 (5-3-3-2), Asus A7N8X-X
May 17, 2004 9:17:45 PM

Why's that? Dishwasher finish and you got your dildo back?

Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too;)
Rachel:) : why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?
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