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Why use encryption?

Last response: in Wireless Networking
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March 30, 2004 9:15:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi

Just messing with my wi-fi network yesterday after it stopped working
a few months back. Found out it worked straight away if I turned off
the WEP encryption.

Upon connecting my laptop to the router and other machine a box
popped up and asked me for the username and password for the other
computer. Without entering this I could not access any of the shared
drives.

My question is considering windows asks for a login and password why
bother with WEP - seems that windows has built in protecion anyhow.
Or am I missing something.

Thanks.

Rich

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More about : encryption

Anonymous
March 30, 2004 10:12:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Rich <richward@despammed.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi
>
> Just messing with my wi-fi network yesterday after it stopped working
> a few months back. Found out it worked straight away if I turned off
> the WEP encryption.
>
> Upon connecting my laptop to the router and other machine a box
> popped up and asked me for the username and password for the other
> computer. Without entering this I could not access any of the shared
> drives.
>
> My question is considering windows asks for a login and password why
> bother with WEP - seems that windows has built in protecion anyhow.
> Or am I missing something.

Wellm for a start, anyone can read all of your traffic, even if
it's password protected.
Anonymous
March 30, 2004 11:07:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Tue, 30 Mar 2004 17:15:12 +0000 (UTC), Rich
<richward@despammed.com> wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Hi
>
>Just messing with my wi-fi network yesterday after it stopped working
>a few months back. Found out it worked straight away if I turned off
>the WEP encryption.

Let me guess...Netgear, right?
Related resources
Anonymous
March 31, 2004 5:55:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Rich wrote:

> My question is considering windows asks for a login and password why
> bother with WEP - seems that windows has built in protecion anyhow.
> Or am I missing something.
>

Yes you are. Anyone in the vicinity can read everything passing over the
wireless link.

--

Fundamentalism is fundamentally wrong.

To reply to this message, replace everything to the left of "@" with
james.knott.
March 31, 2004 2:27:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>
>Let me guess...Netgear, right?

How did you guess? DG824M (I think its called) wireless router,
firewall, access point, ADSL modem working with a Netgear MA111 USB
stick.

Take its a known fault with netgear stuff?

Thanks.

Rich

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March 31, 2004 2:29:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

So with a wi-fi sniffer they can see the password and decrypt it? If
so its not much of a problem. The walls in the house are very thick
and no signal gets outside, the flats up and down both are occupated
by people in there 60's so doubt they will be into hacking.

Thanks.

Rich

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:55:32 GMT, James Knott <bit_bucket@rogers.com>
wrote:

>Rich wrote:
>
>> My question is considering windows asks for a login and password
>> why bother with WEP - seems that windows has built in protecion
>> anyhow. Or am I missing something.
>>
>
>Yes you are. Anyone in the vicinity can read everything passing
>over the wireless link.

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=iM3s
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Anonymous
March 31, 2004 6:29:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 10:27:21 +0000 (UTC), Rich
<richward@despammed.com> wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>>
>>Let me guess...Netgear, right?
>
>How did you guess? DG824M (I think its called) wireless router,
>firewall, access point, ADSL modem working with a Netgear MA111 USB
>stick.
>
>Take its a known fault with netgear stuff?
>
One of MANY known faults with Netgear stuff. I found out the hard
way. The worse thing is that Netgear does not honor the 3 year
warranty that is printed on the box. If your router or card stops
working after 90 days (a common occurrence with Netgear products) they
absolutely will NOT communicate with you unless you first pay them
$28.95.
March 31, 2004 7:53:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Userids and passwords are not always encrypted. Unless you're on a web page
with a URL that starts with "https" (secure http), everything is being
transmitted exactly as you type it. Typically, userid/passwords for ISP
connection and mail server connection are transmitted in the clear.

The whole point of WEP or WPA is that it encryptes *all* user data between
wifi devices and the AP. I wouldn't assume that thick walls prevent the
signal from getting outside. It depends entirely on how thick, and what the
walls are made of. You can't tell unless you've tried to measure the signal
outside, or monitor your network from outside. And in any case, a hacker
with a high-gain antenna can see your net much better than you can - and
probably insert himself into it from a distance you couldn't achieve with
your own equipment.

WEP is not very strong, as we have discussed endless times on this list, but
if you change your keys fairly frequently it's a huge improvement over no
encryption at all. WPA with pre-shared key is best for home use. There's two
issues - privacy and people using your ISP. If you don't care about either,
then skip encryption. But even if you don't care about privacy, you should
have some concern about people using your ISP connection wihout your
knowledge to hack other hosts on the internet, generate spam, or do other
malicious things over which you have no control and which can be traced back
to your ISP connection. Using WEP should block 99% of this.

"Rich" <richward@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:j97l6098k5kcjdge1jkkf3hn874nonoiid@4ax.com...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> So with a wi-fi sniffer they can see the password and decrypt it? If
> so its not much of a problem. The walls in the house are very thick
> and no signal gets outside, the flats up and down both are occupated
> by people in there 60's so doubt they will be into hacking.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Rich
>
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 01:55:32 GMT, James Knott <bit_bucket@rogers.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Rich wrote:
> >
> >> My question is considering windows asks for a login and password
> >> why bother with WEP - seems that windows has built in protecion
> >> anyhow. Or am I missing something.
> >>
> >
> >Yes you are. Anyone in the vicinity can read everything passing
> >over the wireless link.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP 8.0.3
>
> iQA/AwUBQGqdo8jtolcV0LnqEQLZSwCfeIU4RImnrGqPmH5Ie0+vPQDgNG0An2w+
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> =iM3s
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
Anonymous
April 1, 2004 12:19:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Somebody Else <fiwuefui @iagjnijrasm.com> wrote in
news:qn6m60hmlrku7hd6i3q5rnehkmsbdcuf53@4ax.com:

> The worse thing is that Netgear does not honor the 3 year
> warranty that is printed on the box. If your router or card stops
> working after 90 days (a common occurrence with Netgear products) they
> absolutely will NOT communicate with you unless you first pay them
> $28.95.
>

Not true - I had 1 router and 1 switch replaced by netgear with no
problems.


--
Lucas Tam (REMOVEnntp@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/
Anonymous
April 1, 2004 12:19:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 20:19:01 GMT, Lucas Tam <REMOVEnntp@rogers.com>
wrote:

>Somebody Else <fiwuefui @iagjnijrasm.com> wrote in
>news:qn6m60hmlrku7hd6i3q5rnehkmsbdcuf53@4ax.com:
>
>> The worse thing is that Netgear does not honor the 3 year
>> warranty that is printed on the box. If your router or card stops
>> working after 90 days (a common occurrence with Netgear products) they
>> absolutely will NOT communicate with you unless you first pay them
>> $28.95.
>>
>
>Not true - I had 1 router and 1 switch replaced by netgear with no
>problems.

Either one of two things happened:

1) They have changed their policy since then.
2) You got the exchange within the 90 days.

What I said IS true because I am sitting here with a dead Netgear
router and they will not speak to me about it unless I pay them first.
Anonymous
April 1, 2004 4:47:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Somebody Else <ttt@sss.com> wrote in
news:5ppm60hd73gq7aoj34vaqj7kv3t1vv9sek@4ax.com:

> Either one of two things happened:
>
> 1) They have changed their policy since then.

The router was exchanged about a year ago. The switch about 3 months ago.


> 2) You got the exchange within the 90 days.

Nope. The switch was at least 3 years old when I replaced it.

> What I said IS true because I am sitting here with a dead Netgear
> router and they will not speak to me about it unless I pay them first.

Netgear has two options.

1. Pay for cross shipping and receive a replacement within 3 business
days. This options costs about 22.00.

2. Mail in your defective product via regular mail and a replacement will
be mailed out for free in ~2 weeks.

Never had a problem with Netgear - actually they have the best support
around!

--
Lucas Tam (REMOVEnntp@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying.
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/
Anonymous
April 1, 2004 5:02:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:47:19 GMT, Lucas Tam <REMOVEnntp@rogers.com>
wrote:

>Somebody Else <ttt@sss.com> wrote in
>news:5ppm60hd73gq7aoj34vaqj7kv3t1vv9sek@4ax.com:
>
>> Either one of two things happened:
>>
>> 1) They have changed their policy since then.
>
>The router was exchanged about a year ago. The switch about 3 months ago.
>
>
>> 2) You got the exchange within the 90 days.
>
>Nope. The switch was at least 3 years old when I replaced it.
>
>> What I said IS true because I am sitting here with a dead Netgear
>> router and they will not speak to me about it unless I pay them first.
>
>Netgear has two options.
>
>1. Pay for cross shipping and receive a replacement within 3 business
>days. This options costs about 22.00.
>
>2. Mail in your defective product via regular mail and a replacement will
>be mailed out for free in ~2 weeks.
>
>Never had a problem with Netgear - actually they have the best support
>around!

Not any more. Below I have pasted the email I recieved from them
outlining their support policy. This answer they sent me was about a
defective router that needs replacement. My original email outlining
the problem is at the bottom) He won't talk to me to satisfy himself
that it needs replacing unless I pay him first. That is not
acceptable considering that it is only about six months into a three
year warranty. I have absolutely no confidence that they will accept
responsibility for the defective product and refund my money AND send
me a new router. I just don't trust them. If they promise a three
year warranty, then they should not be trying to charge more money to
honor that warranty. It just isn't honest or right.

Dear Sir,

Thank you for contacting Netgear Support. My name is Dhurba & I will
be handling your enquiry.

This issue can be best solved over voice so that we can try a few
settings with you to fix this issue. Please keep the serial number of
the product handy so that voice support is provided, as we do not
support refurbished products over voice. Please note that free support
is provided only for 90 days from the date of purchase. If the product
is within 90 days from the date of purchase then please contact our
voice support at 1-888-NETGEAR and we are operational 24x7. If the
product is more than 90 days from the date of purchase then you can go
for Premium Support. This service is available for a per
minute/incident fee that will be charged to your credit card. The
Premium Support Line can be reached at 1-800-448-1696. Please select
Option #1 if you are using a Windows Operating System or Mac OS, And
Option #2 if you are using Linux. There are 2 pricing plans also we
have Call Packs available as below:

Pay as you go:
Per Incident - $28.95
Per Minute - $1.99

Per Incident Call Pack Pricing:

2 incidents @ $52.00 (10% off the $28.95 price)
3 incidents @ $73.00 (15% off the $28.95 price)
5 incidents @ $115.00 (20% off the $28.95 price)

Per Minute Call Pack Pricing:

20 minutes @ 34.99 ($1.74/minute vs. $1.99 std)
40 Minutes @ 64.99 ($1.62/minute vs. $1.99 std)
60 minutes @ 89.99 ($1.50/minute vs. $1.99 std)

Please note the working hours for Premium Support are as follows:

Windows and Mac Support - 6am - 12am CST, Monday-Sunday
Linux Support - 7am - 7pm CST, Monday-Friday
VPN Support - 7am - 7pm CST, Monday - Friday

If the call results in a hardware failure and the hardware is still
under warranty, NETGEAR incurs the charge for that call and the
customer is not charged. To get the refund you need to have the
purchase receipt.

Please note that this policy is only applicable in North America, if
you are located outside North America then please click on following
link to get the contact # for your respective country :

http://kbserver.netgear.com/kb_web_files/N100005.asp

Please make sure that you have registered the Netgear product at
www.netgear.com/register before contacting voice support.

Regards

Dhurba Mutum
Netgear Support
support@esupport.netgear.com

Please help us serve you better by clicking here
mailto:support@netgear.com?subject=Feedback_in if you would like to
provide any other valuable feedback. (Note: this feedback is not sent
to an agent so you will not receive a reply.)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

--Original Message--

Hi

I have spent hours trying to get this router (WGR614) to work. At
this point it will not connect to any computer without a wire. I
have disabled WEP, Mac address filtering, etc. It is configured as an
open system. The other computers can see the router but cannot
connect to it.

In addition to not working, here are the other problems with it:

- Does not accept the 1126 firmware. It goes through the motions of
upgrading the bios, and resets itself, but afterward nothing is
changed and it still has the old firmware and all of my old settings.
I have tried this repeatedly.

- Does not reset manually by pushing the physical reset button. I
have tried this with it powered on and with it unplugged, and I have
held the button down for varying amounts of time. Nothing works,
there is no way to clear the settings and return them to default.

- Does not retain some settings when changed.

It is obvious that this is a defective router. Please send me
instructions for getting a replacement under warranty.

Thank you.
Anonymous
April 1, 2004 12:31:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 01:02:27 -0500, Somebody Else <ttt@sss.com> wrote:

>My name is Dhurba

uh-oh....
Anonymous
April 1, 2004 4:00:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Somebody Else wrote:
> Not any more. Below I have pasted the email I recieved from them
> outlining their support policy. This answer they sent me was about a
> defective router that needs replacement. My original email outlining
> the problem is at the bottom) He won't talk to me to satisfy himself
> that it needs replacing unless I pay him first. That is not
> acceptable considering that it is only about six months into a three
> year warranty. I have absolutely no confidence that they will accept
> responsibility for the defective product and refund my money AND send
> me a new router. I just don't trust them. If they promise a three
> year warranty, then they should not be trying to charge more money to
> honor that warranty. It just isn't honest or right.
[...]

You are incapable of distinguishing between support and warranty.



B


--
http://www.mailtrap.org.uk/
Anonymous
April 1, 2004 7:05:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:00:46 +0100, Bob { Goddard }
<dont_work_ind_r_1_REMOVESPAM@mailtrap.org.uk> wrote:

>Somebody Else wrote:
>> Not any more. Below I have pasted the email I recieved from them
>> outlining their support policy. This answer they sent me was about a
>> defective router that needs replacement. My original email outlining
>> the problem is at the bottom) He won't talk to me to satisfy himself
>> that it needs replacing unless I pay him first. That is not
>> acceptable considering that it is only about six months into a three
>> year warranty. I have absolutely no confidence that they will accept
>> responsibility for the defective product and refund my money AND send
>> me a new router. I just don't trust them. If they promise a three
>> year warranty, then they should not be trying to charge more money to
>> honor that warranty. It just isn't honest or right.
>[...]
>
>You are incapable of distinguishing between support and warranty.
>

Of course I am. The router clearly isn't functioning. I don't want
or need "support," what I want is a functioning router. Why is that
hard for you to understand? What I want is them to honor the
warranty. I outlined clearly in my email the things that I tried
(following their instructions) that demonstrates that the unit is not
functioning as they say it should. They should honor the warranty.
I am satisfied that the unit is defective. If they want to play
around with it first I will go along with them, but don't expect me to
pay for it. I just plain flat out do not trust them with any more of
my money.
Anonymous
April 1, 2004 7:51:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Rich <richward@despammed.com> wrote in message news:<j97l6098k5kcjdge1jkkf3hn874nonoiid@4ax.com>...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> So with a wi-fi sniffer they can see the password and decrypt it? If
> so its not much of a problem. The walls in the house are very thick
> and no signal gets outside, the flats up and down both are occupated
> by people in there 60's so doubt they will be into hacking.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Rich
Hi Rich;

The truth is no matter how thick the walls are, there are likely
windows in the building ;)  This stuff is pretty much line of sight.
If I can see it, I can intercept it. That said, wood frame
construction might as well be transparent, expecially older
construction.
April 1, 2004 10:12:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

I was empathizing with your frustration, until I read the text of the email
they sent you, which you included in your post. It says

"If the call results in a hardware failure and the hardware is still under
warranty, NETGEAR incurs the charge for that call and the customer is not
charged.To get the refund you need to have the purchase receipt."

Yes, I guess you do have to pay up front, but it sounds like the charge will
be refunded if they agree the unit is broken. This sounds fair to me.

A 90-day free support policy is very common. Live support is expensive to
the vendor, and generally, a customer should be able to exhaust all support
suggestions for a new product within 90 days, and return it as a lemon if it
still doesn't work. And if the hardware fails anytime during the 3-year
warranty, they still absorb the cost of the service call.

I don't know the details of your story, so I don't know why it took longer
than 90 days. If you started talking to them in the first week or two, even
the first month, and they ran you out for 90 days, then you have grounds to
be upset. If you had a clear understanding when you bought the unit that you
would get free support calls for 3 years, and they changed the policy on
you, then I could understand some anger. But if you're just saying that a
3-year warranty implies free service calls for 3 years, that's not true for
most products.


"Somebody Else" <ttt@sss.com> wrote in message
news:tjbn60lbkhd2oah1lfb2d1hv29d6a1lj59@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 00:47:19 GMT, Lucas Tam <REMOVEnntp@rogers.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Somebody Else <ttt@sss.com> wrote in
> >news:5ppm60hd73gq7aoj34vaqj7kv3t1vv9sek@4ax.com:
> >
> >> Either one of two things happened:
> >>
> >> 1) They have changed their policy since then.
> >
> >The router was exchanged about a year ago. The switch about 3 months ago.
> >
> >
> >> 2) You got the exchange within the 90 days.
> >
> >Nope. The switch was at least 3 years old when I replaced it.
> >
> >> What I said IS true because I am sitting here with a dead Netgear
> >> router and they will not speak to me about it unless I pay them first.
> >
> >Netgear has two options.
> >
> >1. Pay for cross shipping and receive a replacement within 3 business
> >days. This options costs about 22.00.
> >
> >2. Mail in your defective product via regular mail and a replacement will
> >be mailed out for free in ~2 weeks.
> >
> >Never had a problem with Netgear - actually they have the best support
> >around!
>
> Not any more. Below I have pasted the email I recieved from them
> outlining their support policy. This answer they sent me was about a
> defective router that needs replacement. My original email outlining
> the problem is at the bottom) He won't talk to me to satisfy himself
> that it needs replacing unless I pay him first. That is not
> acceptable considering that it is only about six months into a three
> year warranty. I have absolutely no confidence that they will accept
> responsibility for the defective product and refund my money AND send
> me a new router. I just don't trust them. If they promise a three
> year warranty, then they should not be trying to charge more money to
> honor that warranty. It just isn't honest or right.
>
> Dear Sir,
>
> Thank you for contacting Netgear Support. My name is Dhurba & I will
> be handling your enquiry.
>
> This issue can be best solved over voice so that we can try a few
> settings with you to fix this issue. Please keep the serial number of
> the product handy so that voice support is provided, as we do not
> support refurbished products over voice. Please note that free support
> is provided only for 90 days from the date of purchase. If the product
> is within 90 days from the date of purchase then please contact our
> voice support at 1-888-NETGEAR and we are operational 24x7. If the
> product is more than 90 days from the date of purchase then you can go
> for Premium Support. This service is available for a per
> minute/incident fee that will be charged to your credit card. The
> Premium Support Line can be reached at 1-800-448-1696. Please select
> Option #1 if you are using a Windows Operating System or Mac OS, And
> Option #2 if you are using Linux. There are 2 pricing plans also we
> have Call Packs available as below:
>
> Pay as you go:
> Per Incident - $28.95
> Per Minute - $1.99
>
> Per Incident Call Pack Pricing:
>
> 2 incidents @ $52.00 (10% off the $28.95 price)
> 3 incidents @ $73.00 (15% off the $28.95 price)
> 5 incidents @ $115.00 (20% off the $28.95 price)
>
> Per Minute Call Pack Pricing:
>
> 20 minutes @ 34.99 ($1.74/minute vs. $1.99 std)
> 40 Minutes @ 64.99 ($1.62/minute vs. $1.99 std)
> 60 minutes @ 89.99 ($1.50/minute vs. $1.99 std)
>
> Please note the working hours for Premium Support are as follows:
>
> Windows and Mac Support - 6am - 12am CST, Monday-Sunday
> Linux Support - 7am - 7pm CST, Monday-Friday
> VPN Support - 7am - 7pm CST, Monday - Friday
>
> If the call results in a hardware failure and the hardware is still
> under warranty, NETGEAR incurs the charge for that call and the
> customer is not charged. To get the refund you need to have the
> purchase receipt.
>
> Please note that this policy is only applicable in North America, if
> you are located outside North America then please click on following
> link to get the contact # for your respective country :
>
> http://kbserver.netgear.com/kb_web_files/N100005.asp
>
> Please make sure that you have registered the Netgear product at
> www.netgear.com/register before contacting voice support.
>
> Regards
>
> Dhurba Mutum
> Netgear Support
> support@esupport.netgear.com
>
> Please help us serve you better by clicking here
> mailto:support@netgear.com?subject=Feedback_in if you would like to
> provide any other valuable feedback. (Note: this feedback is not sent
> to an agent so you will not receive a reply.)
>
>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> --Original Message--
>
> Hi
>
> I have spent hours trying to get this router (WGR614) to work. At
> this point it will not connect to any computer without a wire. I
> have disabled WEP, Mac address filtering, etc. It is configured as an
> open system. The other computers can see the router but cannot
> connect to it.
>
> In addition to not working, here are the other problems with it:
>
> - Does not accept the 1126 firmware. It goes through the motions of
> upgrading the bios, and resets itself, but afterward nothing is
> changed and it still has the old firmware and all of my old settings.
> I have tried this repeatedly.
>
> - Does not reset manually by pushing the physical reset button. I
> have tried this with it powered on and with it unplugged, and I have
> held the button down for varying amounts of time. Nothing works,
> there is no way to clear the settings and return them to default.
>
> - Does not retain some settings when changed.
>
> It is obvious that this is a defective router. Please send me
> instructions for getting a replacement under warranty.
>
> Thank you.
>
>
Anonymous
April 1, 2004 10:12:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:12:00 GMT, "gary" <pleasenospam@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>I was empathizing with your frustration, until I read the text of the email
>they sent you, which you included in your post. It says
>
>"If the call results in a hardware failure and the hardware is still under
>warranty, NETGEAR incurs the charge for that call and the customer is not
>charged.To get the refund you need to have the purchase receipt."
>
>Yes, I guess you do have to pay up front, but it sounds like the charge will
>be refunded if they agree the unit is broken. This sounds fair to me.
>
>A 90-day free support policy is very common. Live support is expensive to
>the vendor, and generally, a customer should be able to exhaust all support
>suggestions for a new product within 90 days, and return it as a lemon if it
>still doesn't work. And if the hardware fails anytime during the 3-year
>warranty, they still absorb the cost of the service call.
>
>I don't know the details of your story, so I don't know why it took longer
>than 90 days. If you started talking to them in the first week or two, even
>the first month, and they ran you out for 90 days, then you have grounds to
>be upset. If you had a clear understanding when you bought the unit that you
>would get free support calls for 3 years, and they changed the policy on
>you, then I could understand some anger. But if you're just saying that a
>3-year warranty implies free service calls for 3 years, that's not true for
>most products.

The router worked initially. So I never needed to call them during
the first 90 days.

Then I didn't use it for a long time. I generally use just one
computer all of the time which is plugged into a separate wired
router. The wireless router mostly stays unplugged. I just recently
reconfigured a computer in a different part of the house and
reinstalled Windows XP Pro on it and needed to run Live update,
download software, etc. So I put a wireless PCI card in it, and it
worked in "wide open" (no security or encryption) mode long enough for
me to get all of the Windows updates, including the one for WPA
support.

When I tried to get the router to run again with WEP it would not
work. So I disabled WEP once again and left it wide open and it still
didn't work! The router would not even work with the computer it was
originally working fine with, so I know the issue wasn't with the new
computer.

That was when I tried to manually reset the router with the reset
button, just in caseI had screwed something up. I figured I would
start fresh and set it all up from the begining. But the hardware
reset button doesn't work. That alone is pretty clearly evidence that
the router is defective. I tried the firmware upgrade but it would
not take it. I noticed that when I tried to change the settings on
the configuration page they did not change.

This is a router that I had set up previously and had it working, so I
know how I did it the first time, and I know it isn't working right.

Then I did a Google groups search and found that a lot of people have
problems with these routers, and it is common to get a run around with
tech support. There are a lot of unsatisfied Netgear customers out
there. That is why I don't trust them.

I think it would be reasonable if they started the support clock at
the time of your first call, the way some other companies do it. Just
because I didn't run into problems during the first 90 days shouldn't
mean that I get no support whatsoever, especially with something so
clearly defective.

So at this point I am faced with the decision: Do I want to throw
more money down the Netgear hole? I don't want to. I have no faith
that they will get this working to my satisfaction. I bought a new
router, different brand, of course. But I wish somebody had warned me
before I wasted my money, so that is why I am speaking up. If
somebody reads this and decides that I am a crank and they still want
to buy Netgear, that is fine. I put my experience down and that is
all.
Anonymous
April 2, 2004 2:48:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Somebody Else wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:00:46 +0100, Bob { Goddard }
> <dont_work_ind_r_1_REMOVESPAM@mailtrap.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>Somebody Else wrote:
>>> Not any more. Below I have pasted the email I recieved from them
>>> outlining their support policy. This answer they sent me was about a
>>> defective router that needs replacement. My original email outlining
>>> the problem is at the bottom) He won't talk to me to satisfy himself
>>> that it needs replacing unless I pay him first. That is not
>>> acceptable considering that it is only about six months into a three
>>> year warranty. I have absolutely no confidence that they will accept
>>> responsibility for the defective product and refund my money AND send
>>> me a new router. I just don't trust them. If they promise a three
>>> year warranty, then they should not be trying to charge more money to
>>> honor that warranty. It just isn't honest or right.
>>[...]
>>
>>You are incapable of distinguishing between support and warranty.
>>
>
> Of course I am. The router clearly isn't functioning. I don't want
> or need "support," what I want is a functioning router. Why is that
[...]

The box was functioning, it's just that you were incapable of
configuring it properly. Like I said, you are incapable of
distinguishing between support and warranty.


B


--
http://www.mailtrap.org.uk/
Anonymous
April 2, 2004 2:48:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:48:52 +0100, Bob { Goddard }
<dont_work_ind_r_1_REMOVESPAM@mailtrap.org.uk> wrote:

>Somebody Else wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:00:46 +0100, Bob { Goddard }
>> <dont_work_ind_r_1_REMOVESPAM@mailtrap.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Somebody Else wrote:
>>>> Not any more. Below I have pasted the email I recieved from them
>>>> outlining their support policy. This answer they sent me was about a
>>>> defective router that needs replacement. My original email outlining
>>>> the problem is at the bottom) He won't talk to me to satisfy himself
>>>> that it needs replacing unless I pay him first. That is not
>>>> acceptable considering that it is only about six months into a three
>>>> year warranty. I have absolutely no confidence that they will accept
>>>> responsibility for the defective product and refund my money AND send
>>>> me a new router. I just don't trust them. If they promise a three
>>>> year warranty, then they should not be trying to charge more money to
>>>> honor that warranty. It just isn't honest or right.
>>>[...]
>>>
>>>You are incapable of distinguishing between support and warranty.
>>>
>>
>> Of course I am. The router clearly isn't functioning. I don't want
>> or need "support," what I want is a functioning router. Why is that
>[...]
>
>The box was functioning,

You know this how? Do you believe that you are psychic? Omniscient?
It is my router and I'm telling you it is not functioning.

>it's just that you were incapable of
>configuring it properly.

And you know this because you are psychic, right? If I am incapable
of configuring it properly, then how did I configure it originally and
have it working for months?


>Like I said, you are incapable of
>distinguishing between support and warranty.

Yes, well, you say a lot of things don't you? And none of them have
any basis in reality, do they? Why don't you leave mommy's computer
now and go play with your blocks or something! That's a good boy!
Anonymous
April 2, 2004 2:48:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 22:48:52 +0100, Bob { Goddard }

Is that "Goddard" or "Retard?"
April 2, 2004 7:15:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Does sound like a horror story, and I too have seen a lot of negative posts
on Netgear both here and elsewhere. You're not a crank for wanting to warn
people off what you (probably rightly) think is inferior equipment.

But a 90-day-from-purchase limit on free support calls is pretty routine
across many kinds of products, even if there are exceptions. The bottom line
is that they claim they will refund the service charge for the call if the
unit is defective. Unless they are lying about that - which you cannot know
unless you actually tried and failed to get a refund - their policy seems
reasonable.

They could institute a 90-days-from-first-call policy, but most people make
their first service call within a week or so of purchasing a new product. If
you had done that, and then the router had stopped working after 90 days due
to a power surge, you'd still be unable to call them without paying up
front. So changing the policy probably wouldn't avoid any frustration for
them or you.

"Somebody Else" <se@se.com> wrote in message
news:ks3p60dqloj1sh0ec9o1a4sglhl2ao93eh@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 18:12:00 GMT, "gary" <pleasenospam@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I was empathizing with your frustration, until I read the text of the
email
> >they sent you, which you included in your post. It says
> >
> >"If the call results in a hardware failure and the hardware is still
under
> >warranty, NETGEAR incurs the charge for that call and the customer is not
> >charged.To get the refund you need to have the purchase receipt."
> >
> >Yes, I guess you do have to pay up front, but it sounds like the charge
will
> >be refunded if they agree the unit is broken. This sounds fair to me.
> >
> >A 90-day free support policy is very common. Live support is expensive to
> >the vendor, and generally, a customer should be able to exhaust all
support
> >suggestions for a new product within 90 days, and return it as a lemon if
it
> >still doesn't work. And if the hardware fails anytime during the 3-year
> >warranty, they still absorb the cost of the service call.
> >
> >I don't know the details of your story, so I don't know why it took
longer
> >than 90 days. If you started talking to them in the first week or two,
even
> >the first month, and they ran you out for 90 days, then you have grounds
to
> >be upset. If you had a clear understanding when you bought the unit that
you
> >would get free support calls for 3 years, and they changed the policy on
> >you, then I could understand some anger. But if you're just saying that a
> >3-year warranty implies free service calls for 3 years, that's not true
for
> >most products.
>
> The router worked initially. So I never needed to call them during
> the first 90 days.
>
> Then I didn't use it for a long time. I generally use just one
> computer all of the time which is plugged into a separate wired
> router. The wireless router mostly stays unplugged. I just recently
> reconfigured a computer in a different part of the house and
> reinstalled Windows XP Pro on it and needed to run Live update,
> download software, etc. So I put a wireless PCI card in it, and it
> worked in "wide open" (no security or encryption) mode long enough for
> me to get all of the Windows updates, including the one for WPA
> support.
>
> When I tried to get the router to run again with WEP it would not
> work. So I disabled WEP once again and left it wide open and it still
> didn't work! The router would not even work with the computer it was
> originally working fine with, so I know the issue wasn't with the new
> computer.
>
> That was when I tried to manually reset the router with the reset
> button, just in caseI had screwed something up. I figured I would
> start fresh and set it all up from the begining. But the hardware
> reset button doesn't work. That alone is pretty clearly evidence that
> the router is defective. I tried the firmware upgrade but it would
> not take it. I noticed that when I tried to change the settings on
> the configuration page they did not change.
>
> This is a router that I had set up previously and had it working, so I
> know how I did it the first time, and I know it isn't working right.
>
> Then I did a Google groups search and found that a lot of people have
> problems with these routers, and it is common to get a run around with
> tech support. There are a lot of unsatisfied Netgear customers out
> there. That is why I don't trust them.
>
> I think it would be reasonable if they started the support clock at
> the time of your first call, the way some other companies do it. Just
> because I didn't run into problems during the first 90 days shouldn't
> mean that I get no support whatsoever, especially with something so
> clearly defective.
>
> So at this point I am faced with the decision: Do I want to throw
> more money down the Netgear hole? I don't want to. I have no faith
> that they will get this working to my satisfaction. I bought a new
> router, different brand, of course. But I wish somebody had warned me
> before I wasted my money, so that is why I am speaking up. If
> somebody reads this and decides that I am a crank and they still want
> to buy Netgear, that is fine. I put my experience down and that is
> all.
April 3, 2004 3:24:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi

Went outside yesterday with the laptop is check, and nothing can be
found. The walls seem to be covered in something stopping the
signal, as I also have problems with mobile phones not working in the
house?

Theres no line of sight to the router outside, I'm in front of a
large empty plot of land at least 3 miles in size with only a school
with a possible view. But saying that doubt 6 - 8 year olds will
have the gear to do anything plus thats at least 200 metres away
(near the max limit of my gear in perfect conditions.

Thanks.

Rich

On 1 Apr 2004 15:51:45 -0800, osiris@deltaville.net (Michael Erskine)
wrote:

>Hi Rich;
>
>The truth is no matter how thick the walls are, there are likely
>windows in the building ;)  This stuff is pretty much line of sight.
> If I can see it, I can intercept it. That said, wood frame
>construction might as well be transparent, expecially older
>construction.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 8.0.3

iQA/AwUBQG6e38jtolcV0LnqEQKbvQCgnUNKTpS5HArVt+KGqT2ccdUVbvoAoNzN
QcY+5fLTSZDwJa3hxhSrR5rL
=GQLU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Anonymous
April 4, 2004 1:50:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

> >Somebody Else <fiwuefui @iagjnijrasm.com> wrote in
> >news:qn6m60hmlrku7hd6i3q5rnehkmsbdcuf53@4ax.com:
> >
> >> The worse thing is that Netgear does not honor the 3 year
> >> warranty that is printed on the box. If your router or card stops
> >> working after 90 days (a common occurrence with Netgear products) they
> >> absolutely will NOT communicate with you unless you first pay them
> >> $28.95.
> >>
> >
> >Not true - I had 1 router and 1 switch replaced by netgear with no
> >problems.
>
> Either one of two things happened:
>
> 1) They have changed their policy since then.
> 2) You got the exchange within the 90 days.
>
> What I said IS true because I am sitting here with a dead Netgear
> router and they will not speak to me about it unless I pay them first.

Then you're talking to the wrong folks.
!