Has ATI Lost their "Edge??"

armadillerkiller · Jul 22, 2004

I used to love Intel and Nvidia. Both companies used to be unmatched. Things must have gone down hill when the execs at Intel got rich and fat off of the stock market. All Intel could do was increase the clock speeds. Recently Intel has done something innovative with their new generation of LGA CPUs but like Nvidia did with the 6800 Ultra, both innovations were overshadowed by the fact that they were released immature in order to counter the competition. I think most agree that Nvidia is really on to something with their new video cards. But once again, they are outperformed by the top ATI card, the XT PE.
But now what does ATI do? They release a flagship video card without adequate component supplies. I've seen the XT PE priced over $750 for a $499 card. Its almost like ATI is pulling an "Enron" and artificially influencing the law of supply and demand and the consumer is getting "Munsoned"

Worf101 · Jul 22, 2004

I'm not sure ATI did this on purpose. They wanted a card to counter the latest Nvidia offering. They had it and put it out. Unfortunately they've had chip supply problems and distribution problems so the card is NOT readily available. They make their profit on volume, not price alone so it does them no good to have unfulfilled demand.

I'm not a 5 year old kid. I just built a brand new system by hand, from scratch. I can wait two or three months until the card I want, the HIS Excaliber X800XT PE IceQII is truly available for a reasonable price.

It's only the "gottahaveitnow" idiots who are shelling out $700.00 for a $400.00 card.

Da Worfste

If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.

julesjt · Jul 22, 2004

Well I just build a kick butt gaming machine with a FX 53, WD 74 GIG 10k rpm drives, 2GB Corsair DDR 400 (didnt need to go 2 gig) and etc. But I had my Radeon backed ordered from CDW for $459 and its now not going to be out until Sept. I am glad this happened because after doing more and more research its not worth going with the Radeon. Yeah it out performs the 6800 by a little bit, but the draw back is the no support for SM 3.0. Also I can't wait because of freaking DOOM3 which runs better on the 6800. In fact the 6800 GT which is not the flagship for geforce outperforms the x800 in Doom3. This is something to think about, because future games are going to utilize SM 3.0 just like Far Cry and the x800 is going to be left in the dark.

ChipDeath · Jul 22, 2004

Its almost like ATI is pulling an "Enron"

Nah, much more like they're pulling an 'Nvidia' - Oh no sorry, they had no cards available at launch of the 6800 series... :tongue: in fact they still had no cards in stores when the first x800s starting arriving into the hands of customers a few weeks later...

---
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ChipDeath · Jul 22, 2004

Don't get me wrong - I'm not being a fanATic here, but business is business - They all do this sort of stuff

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armadillerkiller · Jul 22, 2004

The SM 3.0 seems to be the only argument for buying the Nvidia board right now. Notice I said "right now". If we all were able to choose and purchase either card when the news first broke, most of us would have purchased the XT PE.
I would not buy the current NV board. The next one maybe. It looks like Nvidia is on to something. The 6800 Ultra is #2 and is not very available either.
I'm not 5 yrs either, but was able to find a GA-K8NSNXP-939 motherboard to go with a FX53. Wanted a XT PE to complete the rig. By the time these video cards are available, the FX53 will be #2. And, by that time, SM 3.0 may be a valid consideration. The successor to the NV 6800 ultra may be the one....

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 22, 2004

Yeah it out performs the 6800 by a little bit, but the draw back is the no support for SM 3.0.

Yet even with SM3.0 the difference is minute. Wow that SM3.0 has a HUGE impact eh!?! Yeah right! Maybe once games are BUILT around that standard, but right now they aren't even built around the PS2.0 standard.

In fact the 6800 GT which is not the flagship for geforce outperforms the x800 in Doom3.

Which everyone expected because it currently has trhe advanatage of OGL extension in 1.5 that ATI added to OGL 2.0, nad it's one of the few games that will take advanatge of nV's 32x0 architecture. IT's quite obvious that the GF6800 is made for D3 and vice versa, however don't think that that advanatge translated to any other games except those built on the same engine that make us of equal amounts of shadowing, etc. Right now both cards/makers have their showcase titles, however in reality they are far closer than any previous generation (well dpeending on whether you consider the GF4 or thr GF3 as being the R8500's competitor.

This is something to think about, because future games are going to utilize SM 3.0 just like Far Cry and the x800 is going to be left in the dark.

Which has nothing to do with D3, and which there is little evidence of so far. The difference in D3 is far FAR more dramatic than anything seen so far with SM3.0 in either actual games or demos, and even D3 hasn't been fully poked and proded yet.

The GF6800GT is still the best buy out there right now, but not for the reason you mentioned. It's simply the best bang for the buck in almost every game past, present and future. That situation may change when it has competition in it's class, but right now there's no better deal, but that still doesn't reflect what you're saying.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

armadillerkiller · Jul 23, 2004

I have not seen (or paid attention to) benchmarks between the x800 and the GF6800GT. I think I'm going to take your advice and check it out. At least get a card that is a now term win/win and give things time to see if there is a clear front runner between the top models. Thanks

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 23, 2004

What you will likely find is that the GT is a great value for money (depending on prices in your area). But don't let BS reasons like theoretical PS/VS3.0 support make your decisions, base it on the type of games you actually play or will play in the near future. For all we know neither card may survive past 2005, but more likely both will play well into next year.

Also if you don't need a card "RIGHT F'iN NOW MAN!" then it might be best to wait a little while until supply filters in and prices drop.

As always, just my two frames' worth.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

armadillerkiller · Jul 23, 2004

I have R9700 pro, now with new mb it runs at 8x, I'm happy with it. Is it a nearterm keeper?

GeneticWeapon · Jul 23, 2004

I will still buy ATi.
Do you think we're really going to be seeing HL2 benchies in 16 days, like people are talking about?

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 23, 2004

I'm sticking with my R9600Pro (OC'ed) until the fall when the REAL next gens hit the marketplace. Why buy a $600+ card when I can't even play D3 at Ultra-Uber-High. I like getting high, errr... I mean playing while high, errr... having the settings on high if I spend that much. :lol:

In reality, the RV410 and the R480 look nice from ATI, and I'm interesed in seeing if the NV48 brings much new like low-k/d to the party.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 23, 2004

I don't know. I'd love to think so.

I still don't trust D3 shipping on the 3rd, so who knows.

I would love to see them, and I'm REALLY interested on seeing the Serious Sam 2 early reviews since 3Dc is supposed to be heavily incorporated. However whenever HL2 and D3 hit, I'm buying, I don't even need to see benchies or reviews. The only thing I was worried about with D3 is not true (not shorter than Hitman 2), so I'm in.

Wat will interest me most is what will the FXs do this time around with HL2 compared to last time. I expect the GF6800 and X800 to be closer in HL2 that they were in D3, but I really wonder about all those people who bought FXs depite all the warnings. Are the drivers up to snuff, or will this game (which hasn't been TWIMTBP'ed to death) still have some serious performance deltas for that generation.

I'm still waiting for PCI-EX and A damn Good Socket 939 solution, as for the Laptop, I just talked to an IBM salesman today and they will NOT offer me <A HREF="http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=8717195&storeId=1&langId=-1&catalogId=-840" target="_new">the computer I would buy if I was in the US</A> and they have nothing here even close to equivalent (they want $4200CD, that one works out to ~$24XX). So I will go with DELL and save about $400 which will go towards the 939-PCIe rig in the fall/winter.

I'd still like to see the D3 benchies with the R9600/FX5700 class cards, because I'd like to be able to play with good FPS at 1280x1024 at medium or 1024x768 at high if I can, I'm also worried about this old Xp2000+ (OC'ed it's 1.7 ghz

).

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

pauldh · Jul 23, 2004

Your new laptop is going to out-game your desktop until late fall!!?! I don't know whether to be in awe of the laptop, or say you must upgrade that desktop. Something is wrong, I'm so confused. All I know is I want that laptop. (make note: Must follow Grape around airport terminal looking for the perfect swipe moment. Free copy of Doom3 too. Oops, thinking out loud.)

I guess you can push the 9600pro OC and edge out the P4HT/M9700? Or given CPU difference, maybe not. I'll look forward to your comparison benchies.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 1GB Corsair XMS 4000 Pro Series, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

pauldh · Jul 23, 2004

HL2 benchies in 16 days huh. I haven't seen that. Very nice. You been B3Din' again?

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 1GB Corsair XMS 4000 Pro Series, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

lhgpoobaa · Jul 23, 2004

LOL I would hardly call LGA and socket 775 revolutionary.

They shifted the problem of bent pin returns over to the motherboard manufacturer, and the cpu is just a revision of the previous one with a deeper pipe and tweaks.
Oh plus it runs as hot as buggery.

Intel HAD to develop the banias/dothan as the P4 had run out of headroom 1-2 generations too early.

I remember doccumentation saying it would scale to 5-10Ghz a few years back.

And yes. The PE is a leading edge product.
THus its also a BLEEDING edge product for those people with more money than sence... or just lots of money.
They can put whatever price they like on it as there are still people who will buy one.
Extra profit!

Has it been done before? Suuuuure.
AMD FX series, P4-EE, FX5950 ultra, R9800XT etc etc etc

The bleeding edge doesnt follow the usual laws of supply and demand.

My Computer is so powerful Sauron Desires
it and mortal men covet it, My Precioussssssss!
:evil:

Regards,
Mr no integrity coward.

Crashman · Jul 23, 2004

From what I've heard, as bad as distribution problems for the X800 series seems to be, the 6800 series seems worse. And the 6800 series was "released" first.

But there is an area where ATI failed: The reserved current technology to be available for future cards, giving nVidia a performance edge. They did that in order to make the next generation of cards look even better. It annoys me that they've done this in the past as well, but this is the first time I've seen it backfire with nVidia gaining the edge.

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GeneticWeapon · Jul 23, 2004

Dude!......yer gettin' a Dell...........

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sjaxkingpin · Jul 23, 2004

The only problem with the 6800GT's is that they are selling for the same price as folks pre-ordered the x800xt pe's for. If they ever ship, there's not much choice.

Though in that Ati's comment to tom's in that article, they stated they'd shipped what, like 10k x800's.. Now if only more than 500 of those were the xt pe's

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 24, 2004

Yeah I know. Really I'm very dissapointed, I sooo had my heart set on another T-pad, which is the form factor I love, the service I have trusted, and really they just look nicer and make me feel more confident (especially after all the gripping from the techs here about their). I even offered to pay $2700CDN for that T-pad and no go.

So the only thing I hope for is that IF I get that 9100 I can get the <A HREF="http://img.dell.com/images/global/learnmore/inspn_colors_xps_skullz.jpg" target="_new">XPS 'SKULLS' case cover</A> (yeah it's kind goofy an a waste of $40, but still it's nicer than their dull grey). The 8600 would be nice with the centrino (although it's Banias not Dothan), but I just noticed it doesn't have the Trackpoint, which I love.

I think if I do get the DELL I'm going to get a wav file of that kid audio-spiked to say something like "DUDE you're gettting ... weed in it" splicing that Rob Schneider SNL skit.

At least the 9100 can have the graphics card upgraded, even if it would be better to have the AXIOM PCI-EX for upgrade purposes (nothing with that yet). I'm going to visit VOODOO on Monday and see what $2500-3000CDN will get me from them if I get it straight from them here (no shipping

), online they start at $3600, and that's just pushing it IMO.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 07/23/04 05:36 PM.

priyajeet · Jul 24, 2004

ati will be taking out new drivers

<A HREF="http://www.driverheaven.net/showthread.php?threadid=51405&s" target="_new">ati withdraws from future mark</A>

Futile is resistance, assimilate you we will.

TheGreatGrapeApe · Jul 24, 2004

Yeah but the drivers that replace them (and don't have those problems as CatMaker mentions) are already <A HREF="http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews/6800andX800XT/index.htm" target="_new"> being reviewed</A> and are smoking!

Guess that SM3.0 didn't help much with that 'edge'! :lol:

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

priyajeet · Jul 26, 2004

How can ATI loose their edge, if people are gettin <A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/game/20040724/everlan-08.html" target="_new">married</A> at their LAN events.

This is so F***ed up !

Now they will have fights for using the computer, choosing what game to play.

ITS AN AWESOME LOOKING GAME, NO YOU CANNOT PLAY IT.

Futile is resistance, assimilate you we will.

Has ATI Lost their "Edge??"

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