Avalanche's WON!!!!!

The Stanley Cup!

<font color=green>I've had enough cookies.</font color=green> <font color=blue><i>Got milk?</i></font color=blue>

Avalanche #1. Man the finals were a nail biter.But the man came up big when he needed to. ROY was just kick A$$ in the last two games and now Ray get's the cup finaly.Hockey just is a kick butt sport.!!!!!!
Avs #1 again.Kind of got scared when Forsberg went down but they are such a deep team that it didn't even matter.
Hell yes another CUP that is too COOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Rock out with your AMD out

Im from NJ

Go Devil's !!!!

Grizely1 why did the Avalanche leave Canada ???

Nice Intel and AMD users get a Cookie.... Yummy

They didn't "leave" Canada, Colorado offered a lot of money so they took the offer

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Grass is a beautiful weed

I started out really wanting Ray to win one, but then I got thinking about it. About how many guys go their entire careers without winning a stanley cup, and Ray Borque gets one because he sold out, left the team that was loyal to him for all those years, just to get himself a cup. Then everyone goes and makes a huge deal about how Ray finally got his cup. To be honest, i like Colorado, but i found myself cheering against them for that reason. Borque didn't deserve a cup any more than the hundred or so other guys nearing the ends of their careers without having won a cup, who didn't buy their way into one, and didn't get all the media hype and the "win one for him"

<font color=red> To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism, to steal ideas from many is research.</font color=red>

Hopefully. I'm a Leafs fan

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Grass is a beautiful weed

How many guys have 22-year careers? How many guys are considered the best at their position for almost their whole career? How many guys play more than 1800 games without winning the Stanley Cup? How many guys are universally liked by almost all other players for their work ethic, knowledge, and sportsmanship? The answer? None, except for Ray Bourque. That's why everyone who knows anything about hockey was glad that he won. He busted his butt for 20 years for the same team and you accuse him of selling out??? How many guys play even five years for one team without taking the money and running to a different team? Almost none, that's who. The fans in Boston were happy to see him win IN COLORADO. But I guess you have much higher standards, huh? Yeah, Ray Bourque is just a no-good sellout loser who doesn't deserve the cup. How could we all be so foolish as to root for him? Why don't you do some more thinking before you criticize one of the true greats of hockey. Does your foot taste good?

This is not a signature.

I don't think my foot is in my mouth. I'm a much bigger hockey fan that most, and know a hell of a lot about the game, including it's history. I play the game, watch the game, and love the game, but I still disagree with you. Half the people who are supposedly glad ray won one wouldn't even know it were a big deal if it wern't so overly publicized. I'm am not saying I don't think he should have won one, I just really don't like the way he did it, and I'm sick and tired of hearing about it, and how much of a fairy tale it supposedly is. The fact still remains that he sold out to get one, and left boston to specifically play for a cup contender. That also takes someone elses spot on that team. To me, the way in which he won his stanley cup tarnishes his highly respectable career.
It's like when Messier decided that he was going to go, at the last minute to play for team Canada. He gets to go over, take a spot away from a guy who tried out, and put his heart into making that team, just because his name is Mark Messier.
Ray Bourque is just lucky enough that he had a big enough name that when he decided he wanted to go to a cup contender, one would take him.
So maybe I disagree with the majority of hockey fans. I just think it's foolish that everyone cares about ray winning one, but no one talks about the hard working players, who give it their all, every single game, and never get to win a cup, who aren't in the position to be able to pick and choose a team towards the end of their career just so they can win one.
I really don't think it's the same fairy tale that everyone seems to think it is.

<font color=red> To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism, to steal ideas from many is research.</font color=red>

I don't want to get into any arguments about hockey because frankly, I couldn't give a flying fig about hockey. However, I have to agree that 327goat has a point. It's all about if the end justifies the means.

He played for a team not for money, not for fame, but just simply for the love of the game. He didn't care about winning or losing, but just about enjoying himself. He was setting a higher standard for every little boy and girl who ever wanted to play hockey to play it for the love of the game, not for the fame or money.

Then he goes and sells out at the very end of his career just to try and win the cup. I can't imagine that he could have any other reason than that for his decision.

And so, as a hero, what becomes the moral of the great story that he was weaving for all future players to set their standards to, for every present and future player who looked up to him? The moral is that when all is said and done, sell out to get what you want because you'll never get it otherwise.

Gee, he's a REAL hero to me.

Not.

Had he retired without ever selling out and played every year of his game with the team that he loved because he simply loved the game, we could look upon him as a shining light in the game. He could be an excellent role model for people to look up to. And that respect would have been worth hundreds of cups. Any rookie can get lucky and win a cup for being with the right team. It takes a real hero to be above winning and losing and not care about the cup at all. And he can no longer be called that hero.

Did the end justify the means? Was winning a single cup, a feat that any lucky rookie could manage, worth ruining an entire life's work in building his image as someone to look up to?

Wouldn't he have looked like a true schnoz had he not won the cup and retired an empty-handed sell-out? Should he look any better for having won the cup?

I'm not a fan of hockey, but I am a fan of good role models for today's youths. As such, I'll never be his fan because when all was said and done, his morality turned out to be no better than anyone else's.

If the opposite of pro is con, what is the opposite of productivity? Ground first.

Ray was due, he put a lot of heart into the game, and it slipped through his grasp a couple times. I will elaborate on what i said earlier, because what i said was too broad. Yes, he did deserve to win one a lot more than a lot of guys.

Regardless, there's a lot of players who go their whole careers and never even get the chance, and the media, along with the majority of fans don't give a damn about them.

I used to hold a lot of respect for Ray, as one of the few remaing players who wasn't a sell out in the day and age of high contracts, and hockey as a business rather than a sport. I used to admire him for that. I also thought highly of boston for never having sold him, or traded him. He was one of the few players who truely belonged in the sweater he was wearing.

I would have been more than happy to see him win one with Boston, but to see him basically say "piss on you guys, you're not good enough, i'm going to a team i have a chance to win" well that just isn't the Ray Bourque I grew up watching.

I could have handeled it better too if it wasn't such a media gong show. So to cave just a little bit, sure, Ray did deserve a stanley cup, but at the end when he shopped for a team that could get him one, he lost a lot of respect from me. Does that matter to him? I highly doubt it, but if it does, he can just console himself by looking at the cup ring his name was able to buy him. Who knows, maybe a few years down the road his pride will start to mess with him, maybe not.

He contributed a lot to the game, but there's not many guys, who at the end of their careers, can shop for cup contender, just so they can retire with one.

I certainly hope he has the class to take the cup to Boston when his turn with it arrives. Although, if I were a Boston fan, I don't know if I'd consider that an insult or not.

<font color=red> To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism, to steal ideas from many is research.</font color=red>

Middle ground is an alright place to be.

It would have been a lot sweeter to have seen him win it in a way in which i didn't read into so cynically.
I guess though, there's a lot of guys who i would much rather not see/have seen win championships, who are much less deserving.
Bryan Marchment, Ulf Samuelsson, Brett Hull (he was a complete prick to me a number of years ago when i was a kid asking for an autograph) Doug Gilmore (statutory rape, dirty player), Messier (cocaine), Claude Lemieux, Mario Lemiux (has said way too many bad things about the game, always whining and moaning about some thing or another, although, i do admire his comeback)
I don't think any of those guys deserved it as much as Bourque did. It just didn't seem right him winning without the B on his chest. I lost a lot of respect for Hunter too, after that late hit on Turgeon in the series against the Islanders. Mind you, something to be said for being the only guy with both 300+ goals and 3000+ penalty minutes.

I completely agree with Mike Gartner, I met him when I was 11 years old, seems like such a long time ago now, but he was the nicest guy. Picked me up and talked to me for a while, then took me to meet some of the other guys. A complete class act in my mind, same with Larry Robinson. My dad took me to watch a practice one when LA was in Edmonton, Larry, walking off, stopped to talk, then just handed me his stick, and said "here ya go" Both guys seemed to really realize the impression they could leave on a young kid. Both are definitely moments I will never forget. I was such a hockey maniac back then, still am today.

<font color=red> To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism, to steal ideas from many is research.</font color=red>

I'm not worried if you disagree with me or not. We are each entitled to our own opinions. You have yours and I have mine. That's what makes individuality exciting.

And I've never said that I didn't think he deserved winning a cup. I don't doubt for a second that he deserved one. I just completely disliked his means of doing so.

You have some definately different opinions about pro athletes though. While I agree that there are people who are much more deserving of being seen as a hero, the simple fact is that these people aren't the ones that kids generally look up to as one. As 327goat has pretty well stated, athletes make an impression on young people. Whether we like it or not doesn't matter, that's just the way it is.

And as far as being a good role model is concerned, it doesn't matter if his colleagues and family all cried for joy and gave him a pat on the back for doing it. It doesn't matter if they were accepting of his means of winning one. What matters as far as being a good role model is concerned is that people who looked up to him will remember that moment and remember that everyone agrees that it's okay to sell out to get what you want. They will remember that if you think that you deserve something, then you should do whatever it takes to get it. And in that respect, he completely failed to be a good role model.

How you can admit that he was one of the most respected players in the league, and then deny that anyone would look up to him as a role model is contradictory. The simple truths are that people did look up to him. He did sell out to get what he wanted. And now those people who looked up to him are either disgusted, or believe that it's okay to sell out because their role model did so and everyone loved him for it.

It depresses me to think about.

Personally, I don't look up to any athletes. I mean all they do is play a game. I think that they're overpaid. Do they save lives? Do they educate us? Do they do anything at all to make our lives better? No. They just play games. I can play a game. Does that make me worthy of such a high salary?

Yet there are plenty of people who for some reason or another do look up to them. When a player with obvious low morals does something bad, it's no big deal because no one would look up to them anyway. However, when a player as respected as Ray sells out, just think of all of those people who looked up to him for his ethics and skill who are either crushed or warped by anything ethically questionable that he does.

Is it kind of sad that people are so affected like this? Yes. Does that make it any less real though?

That's where my disappointment lies. It wasn't that he got the cup, because he deserved that. It was that his decision to sell out just impacted the morals of countless people who looked up to him, making the world that much of a worse place to live in.

Is it fair to hold him accountable for so much? I don't know, but it's all part of being famous and there is no doubt that he does hold that much of an affect on some people. So whether it's fair or not doesn't really matter because when push comes to shove, he does hold that kind of influence on the world.

If the opposite of pro is con, what is the opposite of productivity? Ground first.

Well, Ray took the Cup to Boston yesterday. I wonder why he would do something like that, since he obviously only cares about winning and nothing else. I hope there weren't any young people watching who might be influenced by the terrible example he sets with his "win at all costs" attitude.

Okay, I'm laying the sarcasm on a little thick. But my point is that, compared to almost all other professional athletes, he still deserves to be at the top of the list. After playing 20 years in Boston, for some good teams and some really bad teams, he requested that he be traded to a good team so that he had a chance to finally win the Cup. He didn't make threats, he didn't hold out, he didn't say he would quit, he just asked and because they appreciated everything he had done for the Bruins, they traded him. But he didn't win the Cup. The Avalanche were eliminated in the playoffs by the Stars. So he came back for another year to try to win again, just like every other player in the league is trying to win. Do you think when he signed with the Avalanche they just handed him the Stanley Cup? No, he had to bust his butt for another 82 games, then help his team win 16 games in the playoffs. And he wasn't just along for the ride. He was 40 years old and still was one of the leaders in amount of minutes played. There was nothing guaranteed about Colorado winning the Cup. From my perspective, it seems like you're being a little hard on Ray. He didn't strangle his coach, he didn't do drugs, he didn't rape his babysitter, he didn't do any of the terrible things that many pro athletes do. He just asked if he could have a chance to win. If that takes him off the officially approved list of athlete role models, then so be it. I agree with 327goat. The guys who are doing real harm are the holdouts who seem to care about nothing but money - Lindros, Yashin, Arnott. Someone like Ray who is just trying to win doesn't bother me. I understand that people look at athletes as role models, whether it's justified or not. That's for a whole different thread. But I don't think too many kids are going to be ruined by following Ray Bourque's example when you look at his career as a whole and how he has conducted himself on and off the ice.

This is not a signature.

I think you're taking what I'm saying a bit too extremely. I never said he's the spawn of the devil, or anything even nearly that bad. I just think he was a major role model to a lot of people and he let his ideals slip just to have a shot at the cup. As such, he let down tons of people.

Yes, compared to most pro athletes he's a saint. The way a lot of athletes behave today it's a small miracle that people even bother getting into pro sports at all. That still doesn't make it any less wrong though. If anything, it makes it more wrong.

Still, I'm not saying that he should be whipped with bamboo or anything. I'm just saying that it's disappointing and that it puts a taint on his whole career. That said, he's still a better role model than most of the pros out there, and that's a truely sad statement to have to make.

If the opposite of pro is con, what is the opposite of productivity? Ground first.

It's interesting to see how civilized some threads can go when they're on topics that a lot of the flamers will ignore. Looks like we've all seemed to find the middle ground without personal slander or a compromise of opinions. We're all entitled, and no one really got ignorant about it.

You should get your name in brackets next to ray's for all the time and effort you've put into the defense of it's place on the silver.

<font color=red> To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism, to steal ideas from many is research.</font color=red>

Yeah, it was kind of nice to have a thread where we didn't quite agree, but nobody called anybody else a moron or a c*cksucker, or whatever. Maybe we should invite FUGGER or AMDMeltdown next time ... not.

<i>I think, therefore I use AMD.</i>

I know, that's the point i'm trying to make, it's entirely possible. If Weird Al can be used in an argument anything's possible.

<font color=red> To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism, to steal ideas from many is research.</font color=red>

This has been a fun thread. Which is made stranger by the fact that I don't even watch, nor care about hockey. I have to admit though, it's nice being able to debate things without some screaming lunatic fanatic ruining a perfectly good conversation.

And is it me, or is FUGGER back? (Or did he never leave?)

If the opposite of pro is con, what is the opposite of productivity? Ground first.

It has been pretty interesting. You've just proved that a person doesn't need to know much about a subject to debate it, just need to know the facts, and intelligent arguments can be made, and supported.

<font color=red> To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism, to steal ideas from many is research.</font color=red>