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Doom3=nVidia; Half-Life2=ATI ?

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August 4, 2004 3:41:01 PM

I thought this was an interesting snippet...

http://pc.ign.com/articles/535/535268p1.html

Minimum system requirements appear to be a 1.2 gigahertz processor with 256 megabytes of RAM and a

"DirectX 7 video card. Of course, those of you interested in the full experience will want a 2 gigahertz
or higher processor, 512 megabytes of RAM and a DirectX 9 video card. Doug specifically stated that the
ATI x800 was the card of choice amongst many of the testers, as it ran roughly about 30% faster than
Nvidia's best cards."


Some of my thoughts: It seems some lines are being drawn in the industry... not sure what to think about this though. The good news is that if ATI does better in HL2 we will see a competitive market and both ATI and nVidia should remain healthy... on the other hand I do not think I like the fragmentation of the market, where Game A does a lot better on Card X and Game B does better on card Y.

Anytime big $ is thrown around you see stuff like this, but it stinks that the end user has to suffer. One reason it sort of irritates me is because the performance issues seem more to be a result of tailoring more to one card over another, and not just "tweaking" to take advantage of the cards.... sort of puts a downer on the concept of a standard API like DirectX.

An example of how some of this has hurt gamers was in BF:V. BF:V clearly supported nVidia (even shipped with their newest drivers, installable from the install screen "The way games should be played" yada yada yada). Saddly, AA/AF worked in nVidia cards but would not work on ATI boards for couple months and EA did nothing about it.

I know ATI and nVidia are both guilty of this. The video expansion slots for laptops is another example of fragmenting a market... I can see it now: You buy a laptop that supports a ATI OR nVidia based graphic slot. So what happens when you go to upgrade and add a better card? You get WAY overcharged--why? Because nVidia/ATI will have a corner on their market. You are stuck getting one or the other, but not either/or.

Until their is a quality standard on laptops I think I will avoid these propriatory expansion slots.

Anyhow, thought the news snippet was interesting.
August 4, 2004 4:01:47 PM

Half-Doom = ATidia. :eek: 

We need a system supporting both cards in SLI kinda config, with a driver chooser, or maybe drivers flashed onto the cards itself. All we need is a bridging driver. :eek: 

<i> :eek:  <font color=blue>Futile is resistance,</font color=blue><font color=red> assimilate you we will.</font color=red> :eek:  </i>
August 4, 2004 4:12:09 PM

Capitalism.

Why would they not try and corner a game for themselves? Sorry, but if we want to sell cards we should try and get these popular game titles to run the best with our cards. Makes sense to me.

Companies are in the buisness to make money, not be charitable to consumers or pander to their competition. This is what drives innovation and the strive to be #1. I dont think this is bad for the end user at all.

"Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my drive?"
P4 3.0 HT, Intel D865GBF, 512MB Crucial PC3200 DDR, WD 36GB Raptor 10,000RPM, BBA Radeon 9800PRO, SB Audigy, Hauppage WinTV
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August 4, 2004 4:16:22 PM

thats y buy stocks for both ATI and Nvidia, but none of VIVENDI(Apple was planing on buying off the company sometime ago) n Activision (does somebody own them ?)

<i> :eek:  <font color=blue>Futile is resistance,</font color=blue><font color=red> assimilate you we will.</font color=red> :eek:  </i>
August 4, 2004 4:22:38 PM

ROTFLOL! Thanks priyajeet, that was funny :) 


We can put these cards in our IntAMD system with Winix OS. Hmmm Creative needs a good competitor to spruce things up (to bad Aureal died).

Btw, I have no pref for ATI or nVidia--I like/dislike both. My post was not trying to slam or push one over another. My first 3D card was an AGP Riva 128 (nVidia) with a Voodo2 (3Dfx). Built my friends system, and used a TNT2 and later another friends with a GF2 (back then nVidia had supperior better driver support). My current card is a ATI Radeon 9700np (very happy with it up to this point). I just get the best deal at the time performance/price/stability wise.

I hope no one sees my post as bashing or supporting one company over the other... I would gladly accept a X800XT PE or 6800Ultra and be happy with either :) 
August 4, 2004 5:16:17 PM

Quote:
Why would they not try and corner a game for themselves? Sorry, but if we want to sell cards we should try and get these popular game titles to run the best with our cards. Makes sense to me.

Companies are in the buisness to make money, not be charitable to consumers or pander to their competition. This is what drives innovation and the strive to be #1. I dont think this is bad for the end user at all.

Yeah, but id and others are in business to sell games, not cards. So optimizing your game for one card is similar to cutting your potential market in half.

The end game in biz competition is driving your competitor out of the market, or marginalizing them to extent they may as well be. That's no good for us.

I don't like the trend

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August 4, 2004 5:27:35 PM

Its all about the Benjamins!!!

Mobile Barton 2500+ @ 2420mhz 11x220 1.7v
Asus A7N8X Dlx 440 FSB
1gb Geil GD pc3500 Dual Channel (2-3-3-6)
Segata 80gb SATA 8.5ms seek
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August 4, 2004 5:28:26 PM

What is good for the consumer is fair competition on a standard platform.

For example, take the expansion slot on Laptops for 3D cards. How is it good for the consumer to have to buy a nVidia OR ATI card, but not either/or?

Basically, nVidia and ATI can charge a lot more for their stuff because the consumer has no choice: if their system allows a nVidia card, they HAVE to buy a nVidia card, and if it allows an ATI card they MUST buy an ATI card. This allows "premium" markup costs because, well simply, THEY CAN.

Now, if there is a universal format, the best card wins and thus the consumer wins. The companies must provide better products at better prices. An inferior product that costs too much will sink. Simple, competition is healthy for consumers.

I was putting together computers in the old DOS days, and I remember all the propriatory issues and incompatibilies. I remember GLide.

And, a reminder, the PC Game industry has been in REALLY bad shape for a while. It is no mystery WHY DOOM3 is coming to the XBox so quickly--the installed base of gamers who can play the game is much larger and selling a million copies on a console with a large install base is MUCH easier. Selling 1million PC games is a BIG deal, selling 1million console games is pretty common. Not to mention there is little piracy on the consoles (comparatively). PC game companies have died left and right, and that is NOT good for gamers. When you start telling PC gamers that new games wont work very well on their $400 video card, well don't see them going out getting the better card--I see them running to the concoles (that are a standard platform that are becoming more and more like mini-PCs).

D3D came out to help make a standard platform where programs could access "features" that, if the hardware was able to perform them, they would be executed. When D3D came out we saw an explosion of PC titles, mass introduction of 3D hardware, and a ton of games that could work on any system that supported them. Persnoally, (and this is my opinion) I think when companies start ignoring compatibility issues to tailor toward one peice of hardware over another, even when both can support it at similar performance values, as undermining much of the progress made on the PC. It may have some financial benefit in the short term, but long term I see it weaking an already weak market. This starts by alienating gamers.

I am not against tweaking at all, but I see some "currents" that I think may undermind the industry some. The first was when nVidia went with their own method of GPU programming, while ATI went with MS. Another is the "The Ways Games Should be Played" by nVidia. ATI seems to have had better HW during the last gen for the "standard" platform both design for. Yes why should a FX5600 get to use AA/AF when a 9800Pro cannot? This defeats the purpose of DX! Now we have nVidia cards doing great in Doom3, but ATI cards (supposedly) doing 30% better in HL2!! 30%?!!! If I am a 6800 or X800 customer I may feel a little cheated.

The sad part is, those boards cost $400+ For that much a gamer could get an Xbox AND PS2 (or GCN) and just choose the games they like best on what platform. Does it have Xbox live? Go with the Xbox. Does it have more features you like on the Ps2? Go for it... there is no easy solution with the video cards, you cannot have a ATI and nVidia card in the same system. Who this really hurts is the guy with a $150 card (the same cost of a console) who can play one game well and another not. Xbox Live on a HD/progressive scan TV must look nice to this gamer.

And lets not go back to the propoiatary Video Expansion slots ;)  In a perfect world Intel and Laptop manufacturers (with the suggestions of nVidia/ATI) would have developed a standard a long time ago.

All of this is capitalism (and captitalism is not necessarily wrong), but it is not good to alienate your consumer, even in the name of capitalism. If you are near sighted you may win the battle and lose the war. Sadly, a lot of decisions are made for short term cost benefits and you deal with the long term when it comes.

cefoskey stated: "Companies are in the buisness to make money, not be charitable to consumers or pander to their competition."

And as a consumer, who is paying $200-$400 every couple years for my video card + $150 for my OS with a universal API system, I *want* companies to design and develop for some standard. Remember, they want my money, so I do have *some* control also.

So yes, if the companies want to screw the gaming industry and pander to speacial interests, yes they can keep flushing the PC industry down the toilet.

Things like AA/AF not working on ATI cards in BF:V is bad for the consumer--even if it is capitalism. There was no reason it should not have worked (less being developed for nVidias format in mind versus the the standard MS setup)... it was political and part of "The Way Games Should be Played". Fragmenting the wounded PC market further and crippling performance on segments of the market, segments that pay good money for their HW and software, is stupid and short sighted.

Not to mention, we now have a situation we we have two AAA+++ games coming to the PC in the SAME YEAR, yet Game#1 works 30% better on hardware 'ABC' and Game#2 works 30% better on hardware 'XYZ'.

Like Coyote, I do not like the trend. Game companies, in a perfect world, would be interested in making the best games possible for the PC; Card companies would be making the best hardware to run games on the PC. When game companies are making games to play best on specific cards, they are sort of skipping the PC part. Usually I would not mind, but I guess I am tired of the downward trend in PC Games. PC games should be thriving because the consoles are old technology and they have another year of supperior technology before new consoles come out and 'leapfrog' for a year or two (mainly because it is a standard platform designed with one purpose--game performance). While we are seeing some great games right now, overall the PC game industry does not seem to be doing so well.

Just my opinions of course :/ 
August 4, 2004 5:29:21 PM

addiarmadar, you are right :/ 
August 4, 2004 5:37:35 PM

I would be careful to characterize it as being merely preferential treatment because of $$$. Valve stated very early that the graphics in HL2 naturally run faster on R300 than it does on NV30, in fact they spent the majority of their optimization resources on NV30 rather than R300, and even now they might not be able to do high dynamic range lighting, and perhaps some other high-end effects, on the NV30 cards. And right now Doom is faster on the flagship nVidia cards, and it's not because of product endorsement, they are just well-suited to the game. ATi and nVidia have completely different internal designs, and different strengths and weaknesses, and it is a good thing because it creates a dynamic in the industry, and certain software runs faster on one than the other.
August 4, 2004 6:13:20 PM

I am shelling out way to much f.ucking cash for a vid card. There had better be driver updates that make it compatible with choice games. Also do u have any idea how hard it is to find a 6800GT in canada. No you don't so shut up.
August 4, 2004 6:17:34 PM

u know we all should sue both nvidia and ati. over their marketing and public realtions strategy.

fights between them are resulting into fights among us. fights of us and canada.
Soon we'll be dooming each other.

I heard there was a cafe fight when I team got shot down by another in a CS trournament.

If we win, I ll ask for a card from each.


<i> :eek:  <font color=blue>Futile is resistance,</font color=blue><font color=red> assimilate you we will.</font color=red> :eek:  </i>
August 4, 2004 6:28:26 PM

The reason they team up with a card manufacturer is because games take years to develop. It would be difficult to develop code for a game to run well on ALL hardware, but if you were in close contact with a paticular manufacturer then you can get better insight as to the capabilities of the hardware and its compatibility with your code. HL2 has been in the works for 3+ years, correct? Had Valve not teamed up with ATI then it probably would not be able to take advantage of the newest hardware and effects it provides.

I guess the reason you dont see cooperation with multiple card manufacturers is the fact that it must be easier to focus on one vendors architecture at a time, that way when they evolve you dont find you have to rewrite large portions of code. Plus, you get a marketing partnership, and people will go out and buy a specific card to play a specific game.

"Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my drive?"
P4 3.0C HT, Intel D865GBF, 512MB Crucial PC3200 DDR, 2x WD 36GB Raptor 10kRPM, BBA Radeon 9800PRO, SB Audigy, Hauppage WinTV
August 4, 2004 7:48:04 PM

Quote:
I am shelling out way to much f.ucking cash for a vid card. There had better be driver updates that make it compatible with choice games. Also do u have any idea how hard it is to find a 6800GT in canada. No you don't so shut up.

WTF are you talking about? You need to curb your language. Who said anything about the 6800GT and it not being "compatible with choice games"? In fact, what does that have to do with this thread? You need to go to another forum...
August 4, 2004 7:56:46 PM

As far as the performance differences in Doom 3 between the X800 and 6800, I don't think it's that big of a deal. With the exception of the X800 Pro (which appears to benefit from the 4.9 Betas and was no slouch to begin with) and the little 6800, the cards all handle the game under high stress with ease. The differences are only apparent in graphs and figures, so really it's not much of an issue.

And with Half-Life 2, we don't really know exactly what to expect from the new nVidia cards, but I imagine it will be very good.
August 4, 2004 8:36:02 PM

sweatlaserxp r u retarded? You are saying a 30% dif between nvidia and ati cards in hl2 is nothing. So someone who pays $600+ CND for a vid card can't even play some of the new games to there max. What a joke. And why don't you curb your language.
August 4, 2004 8:53:35 PM

take it easy guys...dont let DOOM get you. I know its hell, but we all wanto stay out of it. Dont we ?

<font color=white>Not Me</font color=white>

<i> :evil:  <font color=blue>Futile is resistance,</font color=blue><font color=red> assimilate you we will.</font color=red> :evil:  </i>
August 4, 2004 9:12:42 PM

Hey man, if you want to spend that kind of money on a graphics card then so be it. It seems like you're a little conflicted about your buying decision, so if I may have a second of your time, there is a third vendor that is absolutely killing 'em in the benchmarks, and they are called <A HREF="http://www.xgitech.com/products/products_2.asp?P=2" target="_new">XGI Volari V8</A>. The Duo has <b>dual</b> GPUs which means that it's <b>TWICE AS FAST</b>!!! I think you'll be really happy with it.
August 4, 2004 9:16:01 PM

They seem to suck <A HREF="http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/volari-duo/index-pa..." target="_new">here</A>

<i> :evil:  <font color=blue>Futile is resistance,</font color=blue><font color=red> assimilate you we will.</font color=red> :evil:  </i>
<b>Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off now.</b>
August 4, 2004 10:51:37 PM

:smile: You have no sense of irony :smile:
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 4, 2004 11:01:00 PM

This has been covered before, especially by me (many people know why I won't buy NHL 2004 despite having every one since '96).

The sad thing is I thought the outrage over things like TigerWoods etc would put and end to it. But really it seems to have simply gotten worse. I'm still not sure where CryTek stands considering their pre-release screenies showed a supposed advanatage of SM3.0 but they were really compared to PS1.1 or 1.3 shots; then the patch that made nV sing and the ATIs die, followed immediately by the enabling of PS2.0B which aided ATI. Maybe they are more 'even handed' than I gave them credit for.

In the end TWIMTBP and GITG programs hurt the general public. Someone like Intel (who has the most graphic chip sales) could stop it, but I doubt that they care as long as it doesn't affect their bottom line, and really it's not the Intel Extreme owners who would rebel or complain anyways, they're just happy that Nascar 2004 or TigerWoods even runs on their machine, not that they may be missing something.

While you would think this would hurt their sales, name me one person who will not buy D3 or HL2 because it may be optimised for a card other than their own, and by that I mean name me one person who was very keen on buying it and now refuses to. I think you'd be hard pressed for the marquee titles, because people want them regardless of whether or not the get all the features of the competition.

That there is a title to even out D3 is probably a good thing for competition, but that there should be is kinda sad. I really wonder what Valve could've done to make it so, I understand the architectural advantages of the nV line which really are only well suited for D3 right now, but the GF6800 is not the FX series, there shouldn't be this big a gulf between the two IMO. Perhaps they have something like 3Dc in store for us, but to me these comments about a 30% difference (hmm why does that figure sound familiar?) make me wonder what else is going on.

Once again we'll have to wait for the full reviews to really get a better picture. I'm also willing to bet that any major difference in performance between ATI and nV in HL2 will disipate within a driver release or two, either through optimizations or floptimizations. Right now the stakes are high and people put far too much value into these two titles at the exclusion of all else.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
August 4, 2004 11:05:54 PM

<i>" Oh, ho, ho, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a, a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was getting tired of being stared at."</i> - <b>Steve Martin</b> in <i>Roxanne</i>

I love and live this quote!


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
August 5, 2004 12:53:52 AM

I think you meant sarcasm. There's nothing ironic about XGI getting their a$$es kicked!

Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too;)
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!