Dazed and confused

pickxx · Aug 19, 2004

Maybe there is a simple explination for this but i am confused.....

HIS Excalibur IceQ 9800pro:$235
ATI RADEON 9800PRO/380MHz
128MB DDR/680MHz/ 256bit

GAINWARD nVIDIA GeForce FX5900XT:$192
nVIDIA GeForce FX5900XT/450MHz
128MB DDR/780MHz/ 256bit

on the FAQ the 9800pro gets the reccomendation. But with the NVIDIA card having a 70Mz core boost, and a 100Mhz memory boost over this 9800pro why would it? Is that just a general thing and sometimes certin companies edge out others? No 9800pro was close to the speed of the Nvidia card here.

What are the intangables that i dont know? How can a card that has slower core and memory speeds be better then the faster card? I like the IceQ feature, venting out hot air and also RAMsinks to keep it cool is very nice.

even if they were the same price, how can the 9800pro edge out the 5900XT?

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Marvelii · Aug 19, 2004

Having higher core\mem clock doesnt necessarily mean the card is going to be faster than the equivalent card. Its probably because the 9800Pro had a better architecture than the 5900XT.

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daddywags214 · Aug 19, 2004

Correct. Look at some benchmarks for proof. But hey, you can do better than that on 9800 Pros.

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DonnieDarko · Aug 19, 2004

saying that is like saying a P4 at 2.8ghz is faster than a Athlon at 2.4ghz because of the clock speed. Which we all now is not true. Things such as IPC (instructions per clock) apply to GPUs just like they do with CPUs.

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eden · Aug 19, 2004

It's all about the technology. Did you know a P4's initial performance per clock was comparable to a 486? :lol:

Thankfully we now have P4s with serious horsepower, not just because of MHZ. Pentium M is also an example of fine creativity, with advanced power savings and maintained IPC with current performance of that of a P4 2.4GHZ and above, while running at 1.7GHZ.

It's all about the technology, MHZ means sh** if it ain't backed up!

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Cybercraig · Aug 19, 2004

If you have to get a 9800 card get the 256mb version of the Pro or the XT. Make sure the Pro card is moddable if you find it.

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Crashman · Aug 19, 2004

I think a 485DX2-66 would outperform a P4 Williamette at 66MHz and 33MHz bus.

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pickxx · Aug 19, 2004

ALright, now that i have asked something stupid because i didn't type what i wanted to say.

I know that Mhz isn't god when it comes to things. its a piece of the puzzle but not the whole picture.

With AMD to Intel....AMD has made it easier to compare...the XP3000+ isn't equal to a 3Ghz P4. So there are some problems but its easier. Knowing that A64 3000+ is comparable to a 3Ghz P4 on average is nice to know as a base.

My problem is this, i dont know what IPC is for each card...is it different per company? or is it only different per chipset?

I know the 9800pro beats the 5900XT in benchmarks.....i asked why. I know the IPC would be different but i was looking for what the standard convertions are for the cards if there are any. I was looking for specific things that would provide the 9800pro to be a better card, other then IPC. Maybe software, support, drivers, power usage, temp, or anything.

I know that came out wrong how i phrased it. I mentioned the Mhz because being 15-20% slower i was wondering what made it so much more efficent. Using the AMD<-> Intel comparison A64 has an on board memory controler that helps with the IPC and also runs cooler, and things like that.

I'm sorry, i was tired when i posted this and i was on the way out the door for work. I should preview my posts.

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 I am on an express train to hell. I hope I'm in the front row, the ride is ALWAYS better in the front.

pickxx · Aug 19, 2004

Let me see if this is right....you want me to get a 9800pro/XT with 256MB of RAM? For $235 i can have an ultra quiet, ultra cool, and quality HIS card with 128mb, or for $300 i can have a quality 256mb.
At that point why dont i just save another 100bucks and get a ORGASMIC 6800GT?

I know the 9800Pro is a great OC'er and i figure with a great cooling system like the HIS iceQ, i could get some great overclocks. It comes with a great fan/exhaust combo and also ram sinks. I was going to go with a cheaper one and add a new fan and ram sinks but its like 10bucks more to have everything preinstalled and i garentee it will work.

If i keep looking at something higher because its only 70bucks away i will end up with a X800XT PE.

$200 was my cap i was willing to spend for a card. I am not a diehard gamer but i like the games i do play to be a decent pace...Age of Empire Series, FarCry, D3(when i get a new card i can actually play it on), and of course freecell.

I only went up the 35bucks for the great exhaust/cooling system and the ramsinks preinstalled and from a company most people love.

So if i am going to go with the 256mb version....sell it to me. Make a case that i should save up an extra 70-100bucks for it. I do not need max settings on D3 or FarCry....and i know D3 loves onboard RAM, but will the settings i am going to be playing it for one game be worth 70bucks? Right now i think not.....but maybe, you gotta sell me

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 I am on an express train to hell. I hope I'm in the front row, the ride is ALWAYS better in the front.

eden · Aug 19, 2004

The 9800PRO's overall pixel pipeline system is more advanced, and one of the most important things is that it doesn't need 32-bit FP as nVidia locked their cards at. They allow 16-bit too, but that ruins image quality and has been criticized big time when used as mix-modes (16 and 32-bit). The NV30 was designed from the base up with a very marginal architecture, one that requires coding for it to work properly, and even then it seemed not to perform right. (remember the Dawn demo running better on ATi cards? The demo showcasing what the NV30 is capable of doing, what it's superior at!) It's like the Pentium 4 Wilamette for the graphics cards.

I can't seem to remember most of the things of the R300 architecture right now, but I can tell you that the R300s are much more efficient at doing things. They're using a tried and true technique to execute instructions and data, and that's the wide and short technique. Like AMDs. Shorter pipelines (I am guessing for the R300s they are shorter than the NV30s), many more, and more executions per clock. It just WORKS. Even though a balance of clock and IPC is often what is the best, it seems now that we can make do with IPC much more.

It's been a long time I've read on the R300 architecture, so somebody correct me if I'm wrong on something.

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Obtuse · Aug 19, 2004

I don't think you need the 256. I put that EXACT card in a system my friend is running... Doom III looks awesome. Of course, it depends on the rest of your system. In his case, I had basically just constructed an entirely new system with an A64 2800 and 1 gig of pc 3200 ram. So if the rest of your system isn't up to snuff I won't guarantee anything. But the 9800 pro has got enough gun, if you want my opinion.

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addiarmadar · Aug 19, 2004

The 9800pro has a way better instruction set then the 5900 series so it can do and fit more instructions then the 5900 series. Lames' terms: The 9800pro can fit more data in per clock then the 5900 series. Dont let those #s fool you.

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cleeve · Aug 19, 2004

A 128mb 9800 PRO is better than a 256mb 5900.

Gobs of RAM doesn't really do all that much. It's all about architecture.

Find yourself a sub=$200 9800 PRO and you will be happy. Then overclock it to 9800XT speeds to be even happier!

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eden · Aug 20, 2004

LOL, you didn't actually put anything in layman's terms, you just gave him the second part too, it does both more instructions AND data per clock!

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cefoskey · Aug 20, 2004

Thats like saying a 2.8Ghz celeron is better than a 2.4Ghz pentium 4, or a 2.0Ghz Athlon XP.

Clock speed is only part of the equation. The rest is architecture.

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sweatlaserxp · Aug 20, 2004

You don't need the 256Mb 9800 Pro. I've never seen any benchmarks that expose the advantage, perhaps 1-2 FPS, and slightly lower in some cases, all for the low low price of $300.

The only performance benefit I can see in Doom 3 with a 256Mb 9800 is the ability to run at "high quality" without having to address the paging issues, like all that config. file tinkering. I don't see why there would be an increase in general framerates, only the elimination of "hiccups".

Cybercraig · Aug 20, 2004

Oh heck, if you don't need the max settings forget it. I happen to like 1154 X 868 high quality which my 9800Pro has been unable to deliver for any length of time. :frown:

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HardWareBoss · Aug 20, 2004

You can OC the X800Pro to X800XT PE.

phial · Aug 20, 2004

on the FAQ the 9800pro gets the reccomendation. But with the NVIDIA card having a 70Mz core boost, and a 100Mhz memory boost over this 9800pro why would it?

because it needs those clock speeds to be somewhat competitive with the 9800pro. even so, it falls short most of the time. shows you which architecture is more efficient

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penus · Aug 20, 2004

quoted: "ORGASMIC 6800GT?"

the 6800GT is all hype. i bought the x800 AND the 6800GT to test them out and the only thing the 6800 has going for it is good fps in doom3 and they're hyping the hell out of it because they know ati is better. i swapped the cards in and out between different games and doom 3 is the only one that the 6800 does better in (and by far, i will admit). the 9800 xt that i have now does much better than the 6800GT that i tested. the 6800 even has choppier framerates than my 9800 (all tests run at max settings and 1600x1200 res for games like ut2004).

i am still taking both cards back because neither of the two are that much better than my 9800 to justify the $300/$400 pricetag.

nvidia's card is anything but orgasmic.

phial · Aug 21, 2004

hey nice name

*chuckles*

are you sure that you had your 6800gt working correctly? beacuse it should have gotten twice the frame rates in Doom3 over your 9800pro. I have a 9800pro overclocked to 420/370 (past xt speeds) and i only get about 47fps average with Timdemo1

meanwhile 6800gt's are gettin like 60fps

but i must say, its nice to have a fresh view on things, most poeple are all about nvidia now, but most of these people have never actually owned any of these products

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pauldh · Aug 21, 2004

Depends on the rest of the system. Running an XP2500+ or lower and all would look about the same in many games. If it's an older PC133 P4, or XP2000+ or less, I can believe the new cards wouldn't impress at all.

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penus · Aug 21, 2004

i think you misread my message... cuz i actually was saying that the 6800 was doing a killer job in framerates in doom 3 (hence, that is all nvidia has to boast about). in fact, i was getting almost exactly an average of 60 fps in time demo and throughout the game, whereas only 40 or so with the x800 (after changing the doom init file to go above 64 megs of ram and d/ling ati's doom cat, of course).

what i was saying most of all, though, is that my 9800 performs better on all other games than nvidia's 6800, so that doesn't do much to justify spending all that money on a card just to play doom 3. i wouldn't recommend anyone with a radeon 9800 to buy a 6800GT or even the x800 because they're just not that much better. when i was referring to choppy framerates on the 6800, i was comparing it to the 9800/x800 on all my other games besides doom 3 and ati kicks the 6800's ass.

ps - x800 IS my favorite between the two. i will sadly say goodbye to the x800, but it just wasn't bangin' my buck. and yeah, most people are all gung ho about the nvidia cards and probably have only read reviews about the 6800 as they play quake I with their riva tnt. ha.Edited by penus on 08/20/04 07:44 PM.

phial · Aug 21, 2004

reread your post, your contradicting yourself

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penus · Aug 21, 2004

i don't see any constradiction.. both posts explain that the 6800 is better only with doom 3, but that the ati does better in all other games. hmm.

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