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My ASUS 9800Pro->XT fried!

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September 10, 2004 3:44:21 PM

Yup, my ASUS 9800Pro finally fried out... :frown:

Interesting thing was that it had NOTHING to do with my OC (I think)! That's right, the card wasn't even overheating @ nearly 500/400 (was testing higher clocks [495/399]--on air, no vmod). Anyway, after a cool down period I decided to relocate my computer in my room (just moved into my dorm room, still configuring it). So on the next start up, the computer hard-offs just after boot.

And it does it a few more times...so I let it cool down. Then I smell something burning. So I open my room window and let the computer cool down. Time to find the culprit...I put my nose to the back of the case (where my exhaust fans are), smells like dead PSU. Can't be, my Fortron has been running like a champ and has shown NO signs of dying. So I give it more cooldown time and try it again--this time the change is visible, a puff of smoke comes out of the card and the computer hard-offs again.

Okay, the card is dead, but where is the problem...memory and core look fine. I take off the fan (it blocks the entire PCB pretty much) and try it again....SPARKS. The burn is on the EDGE of the PCB, between the RAM chips...but everything looks perfect (other than the burn mark). So I give it another go w/o the molex plugged in and it works fine (other than it saying to plug the molex in and therefore not booting).

A quick run to BBY for a replacement solves the problem (I now have an ATi 9800Pro w/ 2.86ns Samsung that OCs higher than my 2.5ns Hynix!). So I put the stock cooler back on the ASUS and try to reflash back to the PRO bios, but I don't have a PCI card, so that's a no go. So my dad is going to RMA it back to either newegg or ASUS...so I might have two 9800Pros (or an XT and a Pro if they don't look at the sticker/receipt :p ).

Anyway, my parents (my mom is a computer engineer, to boot) both think that this was caused by cat fur (I have a Maine Coon who sheds quite a bit, and there was fur on the card when I re-stockified it), but I don't think a burning hair could start that kind of problem (the screen was REALLY blurry when I was starting up, then it crashed w/o smoke or sparks...I think it started somewhere inside the PCB).

Anybody here have any ideas??

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.

More about : asus 9800pro fried

September 10, 2004 4:16:11 PM

hair doesnt short things out

at first i laughed when i read this
Quote:
Interesting thing was that it had NOTHING to do with my OC (I think)! That's right, the card wasn't even overheating @ nearly 500/400 (was testing higher clocks [495/399]--on air, no vmod).

until i read
Quote:
Okay, the card is dead, but where is the problem...memory and core look fine. I take off the fan (it blocks the entire PCB pretty much) and try it again....SPARKS. The burn is on the EDGE of the PCB, between the RAM chips...but everything looks perfect (other than the burn mark). So I give it another go w/o the molex plugged in and it works fine (other than it saying to plug the molex in and therefore not booting).


thats really wierd. i couldnt tell you. prehaps the XT bios has different voltages than the pro? no idea

-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>
Brand name whores are stupid!
September 10, 2004 4:55:47 PM

Yeah, I should clarify about the hair...my mom proposed that the card was running hot and burned the hair (which would get very hot for a split second, doing the damage then). Idk how much I find that valid (I thought these things can take a lot more heat than THAT).

As for the XT Bios...the voltages are the same, IIRC (and the ASUS 9800Pros are just failed XTs [would artifact w/ Overdrive 'on' using the stock cooler]. I also had it XT flashed since the first week I got it, so why would it give up now?

One other thing I remembered was that it was also <b>extremely</b> humid yesterday in my dorm and there was no A/C...could this have done anything (I was doing the OCing in CT before I left, though, in an A/C'd room and low humidity)?

I should also mention that w/ ATiTool I had a 2D setting at 350/324, so the card didn't die while OCed.

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.
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a b U Graphics card
September 10, 2004 5:23:25 PM

I have to say it's not the first time pussy's tried to keep a guy from gaming. :evil:  :eek:  :evil: 

I think cat hair is iffy, considering the amount of dust in rigs. I don't know if dust is more insulating or something.

Anywhoo, that sucks man!

Good luck with the RMA, let us know how it goes.


EDIT: Damn can't press reply and take an hour to answer or else the 'hair' question is answered. D'oh! Anywho, NOW, busy at work, missed the replies.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 09/10/04 11:26 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
September 10, 2004 6:17:17 PM

Quote:
Yeah, I should clarify about the hair...my mom proposed that the card was running hot and burned the hair


well the flash point even for hair is over a few hundred degrees im sure, and that melt/fry the card before it reached those kinda temps

-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>
Brand name whores are stupid!
September 11, 2004 9:13:54 AM

i have my auto o/c protection :) ))) just have a 300w no-name psu ... with nv6800 when i overclock it a bit it shutdowns :) )))) so could never really push it :) )
September 12, 2004 1:36:05 AM

The humidity would definately be a possible culprit...ever notice how most electronic devices have environmental ratings for temp AND humidity?

If any water condensed on the card contacts it could cause a short (since only distilled/deionized water is nonconductive)

"Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my drive?"
P4 3.0C HT, Intel D865GBF, 1GB Crucial PC3200 DDR, 2x WD 36GB Raptor 10kRPM, BBA Radeon 9800PRO, SB Audigy, Hauppage WinTV
September 12, 2004 3:31:20 AM

I thought about that more and I don't see it's plausibility...1) my fan on the card didn't turn on (none off my rheobus turned on--there was absolutely zero overheating, however...it has the Zalman HP80D and was running at 9800np speeds), meaning that the card was significantly higher in temp than ambient...condensation simply doesn't happen in those conditions; 2) it was a slowish death (4 minutes of normality, then 10ish minutes of usage once symptoms showed) from the inside with an eventual burn mark and sparks on the outside; 3) it really wasn't THAT humid...I only thought it was due to the fact I was moving around heavy boxes and furniture in a smallish room.

Oh well, my new 9800Pro isn't too bad and the one I fried will be RMA'd. So I guess I can find out which OCs better and sell the bad one on eBay.

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.
September 12, 2004 7:35:52 AM

you're assuming the moisture condensed on the card, ever consider the humidity might have condensed on the hair itself? besides, hair isn't an insulator, when you rub a balloon on your hair what happens? build up of static electricity? so it has to be a semiconductor. especially since you mentioned a fuzzy picture. sounds like you had a signal where it didn't belong possibly

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antec 550w true control
September 12, 2004 6:04:10 PM

Yeah... I've noticed. And guess what they all are? Like 99%. Heat does not make things condense... cold does! If he had a vapochill on there then yeah humidity could be the culprit!

Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too;)
Rachel:) : why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?
September 13, 2004 1:26:13 AM

There was an extremely small quantity of fur, mostly stuck in the RAMsinks. Anyway, if I could close this thread I would...there's no use to finding a CAUSE to the problem (it was likely something that had nothing to do with any of this...maybe it was just ready to die at that time anyway). Anyway, the picture was only fuzzy in the center of the screen, which happened to me before when I was moving. The monitor was *NOT* fuzzy in BIOS or while booting (before it hard-offed a few times); I had unplugged and replugged the monitor several times at that point. In addition, my second monitor was fine.

All I really care about now is the possibility of getting a replacement. Newegg no longer stocks the ASUS 9800PRO, so IDK what's gonna happen. Don't really wanna go to ASUS unless I have to do so.

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.
September 13, 2004 5:21:40 AM

Cold "causes" condensation? Why, then, does taking a hot shower cause fog on your mirror? Because the air is saturated (high humidity) and the surface of the mirror is cooler than the ambient air. This could happen in the case if it was humid enough in the room and some metal components of the card were cool (especially if the system wasnt running).

Not saying for sure this is what happened, but it definately is possible.

"Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my drive?"
P4 3.0C HT, Intel D865GBF, 1GB Crucial PC3200 DDR, 2x WD 36GB Raptor 10kRPM, BBA Radeon 9800PRO, SB Audigy, Hauppage WinTV
September 13, 2004 6:15:48 AM

" Because the air is saturated (high humidity) and the surface of the mirror is cooler than the ambient air."

You got it... now why wouldn't this happen in the proposed case? Because when you take a hot shower the air is heated up (much faster than the mirror) and then the mirror is cooler and water condenses on it.

When he starts up his computer the air and the components are the same temperature... when the air temperature rises though, unlike the mirror (which becomes cooler than the air), the components are STILL HOTTER than the air... because in this example, the components are the equivalent of the WATER, not the MIRROR, because theyre generating the heat. Understand? Any heat added to the air comes from the components, which by law will always be hotter than the air.
Now, going by what you proposed, the CASE could theoretically incur some condensation, as it is not a heat generator and therefore could be cooler than the air inside the computer as it would take longer to heat up.... but this is extremely unlikely because metal transfers heat well and the temperature difference between it and the air would not be high enough to cause condensation.


1 more theory f**ked over by Willy aka The_OC_King! w00t!

Cefoskey = 0
Willamette_Sucks = (unmeasurably high)

Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too;)
Rachel:) : why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?
September 13, 2004 2:49:56 PM

If cat hair sparked up a PCB, you must defiantely smell it that is if you know the smell of burnt hair for it very potent. Also burnt hair will carmelize on the contact and you will be able to see it. If you do not see such then you can pretty much rule out cat hair but yes cat hair and dust can cause this. But from looking at your clock settings and wondering what cooling solution are you using? I have to use a Peilter on my 9800pro->xt when the core is past 480mhz and naturally with peilters, you have to watch for condensation for it will cause a short on the PCB id that water gets in contact with a part of the PCB.

Hell even water cooling can cause it if you are like me and put your radiator and resivor in your freezer.

Also another cause is something conductive made a bridge on your pcb and create a short. If there is no signs of that in your case then really I think your card may have just popped. If you run that card that high normally vmod are required, mine did past 465 on the core. When you do vmods, you gotta scan it with a I-R scanner for hotspots. Your core maybe running nice and cool but some other unsinked component running dangerous levels of hear can make that transitional meatal conductive and make a short and BAM instant RMA. Even just straight OCing heats up other parts of the card than the core/ram.

<i><font color=red>Only an overclocker can make a computer into a convectional oven.</i></font color=red>
September 13, 2004 4:14:44 PM

Nothing like the smell of fried Vid card first thing in the morning.
September 13, 2004 4:15:26 PM

Your right about that. :smile:
September 13, 2004 4:19:55 PM

We should have a computer cookout. Everybody brings picture of their fried cards/parts and share it over the irc.
<font color=white>...thats just for dudes who have nothin better to do and I am not one of them.</font color=white>

<i> :tongue: <font color=blue>I don't suffer from insanity.</font color=blue><font color=red> I enjoy every minute of it.</font color=red> :tongue: </i>
<b>He who laughs last thinks slowest!</b>
September 13, 2004 4:58:32 PM

Quote:
If cat hair sparked up a PCB, you must defiantely smell it that is if you know the smell of burnt hair for it very potent. Also burnt hair will carmelize on the contact and you will be able to see it.

Yeah, I was wondering if cat hair had the same properties as human hair (lost some armhair back in my freshman year on HS...I remember the burning scent well). There was no such smell (although the smell of burned PCB is stronger, IMO) and no carmelized fur on the card, however.

Quote:
But from looking at your clock settings and wondering what cooling solution are you using? I have to use a Peilter on my 9800pro->xt when the core is past 480mhz and naturally with peilters, you have to watch for condensation for it will cause a short on the PCB id that water gets in contact with a part of the PCB.

I was testing the max clocks earlier that day (by a few hours)...I thought that my maxxes were 481/385, but with some guts and the A/C at a very low temp, I pushed my card (progressively) to 495/399 (or maybe it was 398, I forget). Temps never went above 45C under load for the card with *ONLY* the new Zalman HP80D with a 120mm hi-po fan. No pelts, no water, no vapochill. I guess my card didn't do too badly for a failed XT :tongue: (overdrive enabled would cause artifacting for some reason, I think that's why it failed). Anyway, my card started to artifact at around 470/381...and I just wanted to get it to run one set of benchmarks at the highest clock possible. Anyway, 3DMark03 crashed in Nature (not surprisingly), so I backed down to my previous high clocks and ran it again...perfectly fine run.

Then I shut down my computer to pack it up. (Note...I had hardware forced clocks of 350/324, as well as ATiTool's 2D setting at that). When I started up the VERY first time up at school, all was fine (except my mouse and keyboard not working [wrong USB port]). So I dumbly restarted a few times to counter that (didn't do it) and then realized what was wrong...went in back and fixed it (computer had been on a total of 3-5 minutes at this point). When it started up again it was blurry (I don't screw my monitor cables in, computer had been on for ~10-15 minutes at this point) and I have since replicated the problem. Blurriness likely had NOTHING to do with it. Then after a few minutes of use and complaining, I restarted and POP (well, no noise, just a hard-off on restart and a slight burning smell; kept restarting to figure out the source of short and smell for the next 5 minutes). The rest of the info I've posted should suffice.

Quote:
Also another cause is something conductive made a bridge on your pcb and create a short. If there is no signs of that in your case then really I think your card may have just popped. If you run that card that high normally vmod are required, mine did past 465 on the core. When you do vmods, you gotta scan it with a I-R scanner for hotspots. Your core maybe running nice and cool but some other unsinked component running dangerous levels of hear can make that transitional meatal conductive and make a short and BAM instant RMA. Even just straight OCing heats up other parts of the card than the core/ram.

Yeah, there no marks of bridging either. I did *NOT* have a voltmod (and the XT bios doesn't touch voltages...just clocks and memtimings [how people claim higher OCs with an XT bios is the placebo effect]). My card ran quite cool tbh...and I had a behemoth fan on the side of it...everything was being cooled. Though a hotspot is possible, why would the card have burned at THE most well cooled spot on the PCB? Of course I never had my card I-R scanned, but if the card died due to a hotspot (at well below stock speeds with a cooling solution much better than stock)...it woulda died anyway.

Anyway, after everyone's suggestions it is my conclusion that the card simply died, regardless of clocks, regardless of humidity, regardless of cat fur, regardless of the BIOS, and regardless of the cooling. There were no PCB markings where it burned, no capacitors, no resistors, no core, no RAM, nada. Just a front and center spot for the fan.

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.
September 13, 2004 5:08:29 PM

I belive that was the point I was trying to convey. Just get it RMAed.

<i><font color=red>Only an overclocker can make a computer into a convectional oven.</i></font color=red>
September 13, 2004 5:12:22 PM

I think it's already on the way (as I said...parents are taking card of it :smile: ).

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.
September 13, 2004 5:21:49 PM

No, you overlooked the fact that I was speaking about the components in the case <font color=blue>before it was running</font color=blue>. He stated he was moving, so his system would not have been running (and therefore the components could be at a temp less than ambient when he moved into a higher temperature and higher humidity area). If the humidity were high enough, then condensation could occur on those parts, especially metal or highly thermally conductive parts. Air temperature changes much faster than the components do. When he went to switch the system on, that condensation could have easily shorted out one of the numerous contacts on the PCB of the card.

Im taking your point back =P

I dont think you really want to start debating thermodynamics with me anyway, I just finished my ME degree from Purdue.

"Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my drive?"
P4 3.0C HT, Intel D865GBF, 1GB Crucial PC3200 DDR, 2x WD 36GB Raptor 10kRPM, BBA Radeon 9800PRO, SB Audigy, Hauppage WinTV
September 13, 2004 5:23:12 PM

Something strange happened to my 9800 Pro a few days ago- I uninstalled the drivers and rebooted, and the red ASCII warning shows up and says that I need to attach the power connector to my card, and I'm like WTF. I open up the computer and pull the plug on the card, and one of the four pins is <i>brown</i>.

The pins on the female plug (on the card) have a plastic sheath behind them, and the one on the end looks brown and slightly misshapen. The male plug for the PSU has brown coloring on the corresponding pin as well. I plugged in another male and now it's working fine again, but I'm going to grab my old TNT2 card to use as a temporary and I'm going to try to RMA the 9800.

My friend Jeff said that there was a possibility that there was a weak contact between the two pins, which can result in electrical "arcing" and that creates heat, which explains the brown and slight melting. I just think that's really strange because it happened right after I uninstalled the drivers, and I've rebooted the computer hundreds of times since I bought the Radeon. I don't overclock, My Fortron is less than a year old, I have a nice surge protector, and the power in my building seems fine. Has this happened to anyone else?

Athlon 2500+, Asus A7N8X Deluxe Rev2, 768Mb Corsair XMS 5-2-2-2.5, Sapphire 9800 Pro 128Mb, Seagate SATA 80Gb, Fortron-Source FSP400-60PFN
September 13, 2004 5:43:13 PM

Cocktails!!!

<i><font color=red>Only an overclocker can make a computer into a convectional oven.</i></font color=red>
September 13, 2004 11:35:21 PM

You're right, I did overlook that.

I guess it's a draw then because I don't disagree with anything you've just said. However, your theory, while POSSIBLE, is still highly improbable, because the temperature difference I don't think would be great enough to cause condensation. The difference in temperatures (of the air and the metal) necessary to cause condensation on the metal changes with the % humidity, and I'm not sure what the humidity level was, but probably not 99%, and the temperature difference probly wasn't more than 5 or at the most 10 degrees farenheit, so the likeliness of condensation to occur due to this small difference is quite low.

P.S. Aww that's so cute! A mechanical engineering degree from Purdue! Seriously college is for one thing, to get a piece of paper so someone will hire you (which is important, yes, but irrelevant here). You can learn anything you want online or in books... and I prefer very specified learning as opposed to broad learning. (Ex.: "Hey I want to learn how to build rockets!" "OK but first you must learn how to write an analytical essay on Shakespeare in English, and then learn how to recognize basic human behaviors, reactions, and emotions in Psychology!" Bullsh*t, don't waste my time.) So... instead of arguing about whether water could have condensed in someones computer on some forum full of computer geeks, GET A JOB with your degree. I could have knowledge on a given subject the equivalent of a PHD just by reading/studying on my own time, and probably 99% or all of this could be done online. So.. how do you know I don't have such knowledge of thermodynamics? You don't. Keep the "hey I have a degree!" line for INTERVIEWS, not forums, cause frankly, I don't give a sh*t. People with degree's can be wrong:) 

Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too;)
Rachel:) : why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Willamette_Sucks on 09/13/04 09:15 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
a b U Graphics card
September 14, 2004 12:20:47 AM

<A HREF="http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/poitier/135/thermo...." target="_new">Homer's view</A>

The thing is that you forget that the case has dead air inside it already, and therefore the humid air needs to displace that original air. Diffusion alone wouldn't do it fast enough to overcome temperature, and with the computer off, it's deabtable how much displacement would go on and whether it would occur fast enough. The only scenario that seems probable would be going from a very cold storage space (like a trunk or garage storage area) to the room and then immediately turning on the computer which would start the fans and move the air fast enough within the case to expose alot of humid air and moisture over the parts that still didn't have time to warm up yet either due to air temperature or electrical activity.

Still improbable, but theoretically possible. Personally I blame the SWISS!

Ahh, nice to take a break from the everyday.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
September 14, 2004 12:30:35 AM

Have you copyrighted your P.S. section above or is it open src? I wanna edit and use it at quite a few places ? :lol:  :wink:

<i> :tongue: <font color=blue>I don't suffer from insanity.</font color=blue><font color=red> I enjoy every minute of it.</font color=red> :tongue: </i>
<b>He who laughs last thinks slowest!</b>
September 14, 2004 12:31:35 AM

Okay...the system was sitting in the room for hours doing nothing and it worked for a few minutes, then was blurry for a few minutes (turned out to be a loose cable that I knocked switiching USB ports for my keyboard), then died for, well, forever. If you can figure condensation into that...wow. And if you notice what I said...when it died, it wasn't THAT humid. It was a lot more humid earlier in the day, but that means squat because the computer was in a box at that time (on the backseat of an A/C'd Honda).

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.
a b U Graphics card
September 14, 2004 12:49:18 AM

It was the Honda that did it!

Shoulda transported it in a Nissan!

If you would like my detailed theory on this please send a self addressed pre-stamped envelope to:

<i><pre>"WTF happened to my Life c/o Locker 427 - by the Men's Bathroom, Atlantic City Bus Terminal, 1995 Atlantic Avenue, Atlantic City , NJ 08401"</i></pre><p> :lol: 


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
September 14, 2004 1:13:23 AM

Lol. Nope, you can use it. You can't copyright the truth!
(If you quote it directly, acknoledgement to The_OC_King (myself) would be appreciated)

Glad you agree BTW;)

Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too;)
Rachel:) : why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?
September 15, 2004 11:20:02 PM

A degree means more than a slip of paper from a university, it means taking 4 years worth of classes which directly teach the subjects we happen to be dealing with here. A quote like that just sounds like someone whos bitter about college because they couldnt cut it. But I digress.

Its nice you dont give a sh*t, but dont you think it says something that you pretty much cannot get a decent job without one (especially in engineering)? If you could learn anything you want online or in books, then how do you get any practical time experimenting on million dollar equipment? How do you get any RELEVENT experience? Knowledge is one thing, but experience that universities provide is another.

I am not saying I am definately right here, nor was I trying to light any flames. But someone who has 4 years of schooling in a field related to this subject matter <i>probably</i> knows a little more about it than someone who doesn't.

PS. I have a great engineering job, thank you. Did you think because I post here that I didn't? What do you do for a living?

"Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my drive?"
P4 3.0C HT, Intel D865GBF, 1GB Crucial PC3200 DDR, 2x WD 36GB Raptor 10kRPM, BBA Radeon 9800PRO, SB Audigy, Hauppage WinTV
September 16, 2004 1:06:38 AM

Quote:
What do you do for a living?

PLEASE do not do that here! Way too SoD like!

Just because he makes a joke out of a stellar education (I'm actually looking at Purdue's engineering program for next year), does not mean to fight back with a slightly tweaked version of what he said! I know he is insulting you personally, but if you're going to insult him back, please do it in PMs.

Maxtor disgraces the six letters that make Matrox.
September 16, 2004 3:19:12 AM

Lol. It was somewhat of a rant; I have nothing against you personally, or degrees. In fact I plan to get one:)  That's right... I'm not yet out of high school (I'm a senior)... but don't EVEN bring the age sh*t up!

And no I didn't really think you didn't have a job.

I also understand that universities have tons of equiptment to learn on and use that most people don't have at home.

However... much of what I said does still stand on some degree.

P.S. 4 years?! He'll the cashiers at WAL MART have a 4 year degree! Bachelors = LOSER! If you don't have at least a MA, FORGET IT!



Lol... again, somewhat joking.

Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too;)
Rachel:) : why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?
September 16, 2004 4:39:09 AM

Glad to hear that your remarks were't intended to be as pointed as they came across.

But about the 4 year sentiment...a 4 year degree from a university like Purdue for enginnering is considered far more difficult and superior to nearly all other schools (top 10 in US news engineering schools for as long as I can remember). When you have a 90%+ placement rate for grads, I hardly call a BA grad a loser.

A "4 year degree" can mean a lot of things depending on where it was completed.

PS Vapor, I cant say enough good things about Purdue, aside from its location. I wish you the best of luck and hope you seriously consider attending there!

"Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my drive?"
P4 3.0C HT, Intel D865GBF, 1GB Crucial PC3200 DDR, 2x WD 36GB Raptor 10kRPM, BBA Radeon 9800PRO, SB Audigy, Hauppage WinTV
!