Is there a way to replace dells hidden partition

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

I was reinstalling windows xp home on a dell. Dell gives a reinstall cd
that isnt a copy of windows but a prog that accesses a partition on the hd
to reinstall windows.

Anyways when I was prompted to reinstall windows I erased the wrong on. I
have a legit key ,it isnt even my computer, Its my bosses. I have xp pro. I
need to either get that partition back or get a copy of xp home, please
help
17 answers Last reply
More about replace dells hidden partition
  1. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:42:48 +0000, T The Head wrote:

    > I was reinstalling windows xp home on a dell. Dell gives a reinstall cd
    > that isnt a copy of windows but a prog that accesses a partition on the hd
    > to reinstall windows.
    >
    > Anyways when I was prompted to reinstall windows I erased the wrong on. I
    > have a legit key ,it isnt even my computer, Its my bosses. I have xp pro. I
    > need to either get that partition back or get a copy of xp home, please
    > help

    That tiny partition is a diagnostic partition and does not have Windows on
    it. Each dell, for a long time, has come with a restore CD that either is
    the real Windows XP CD or a restore CD that will wipe the machine and
    reinstall it as the day it shipped.

    Every XP machine I've seen from dell has a real MS Windows XP CD, your
    boss should have one somewhere.

    --
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    remove 999 in order to email me
  2. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    Leythos <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in
    news:pan.2005.03.05.03.50.49.487713@nowhere.lan:

    > On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:42:48 +0000, T The Head wrote:
    I have the cd " reinstallation CD microsoft windows xp home edition "


    >> I was reinstalling windows xp home on a dell. Dell gives a reinstall
    >> cd that isnt a copy of windows but a prog that accesses a partition
    >> on the hd to reinstall windows.
    >>
    >> Anyways when I was prompted to reinstall windows I erased the wrong
    >> on. I have a legit key ,it isnt even my computer, Its my bosses. I
    >> have xp pro. I need to either get that partition back or get a copy
    >> of xp home, please help
    >
    > That tiny partition is a diagnostic partition and does not have
    > Windows on it. Each dell, for a long time, has come with a restore CD
    > that either is the real Windows XP CD or a restore CD that will wipe
    > the machine and reinstall it as the day it shipped.
    >
    > Every XP machine I've seen from dell has a real MS Windows XP CD, your
    > boss should have one somewhere.
    >
  3. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 04:02:27 +0000, T The Head wrote:
    >
    > Leythos <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in
    > news:pan.2005.03.05.03.50.49.487713@nowhere.lan:
    >
    >> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:42:48 +0000, T The Head wrote:
    > I have the cd " reinstallation CD microsoft windows xp home edition "

    Put the CD in the drive, reboot the computer, it should boot from the CD
    and let you install XP. Keep in mind, it may WIPE everything on the drive
    during/depending on the restore process.


    >>> I was reinstalling windows xp home on a dell. Dell gives a reinstall
    >>> cd that isnt a copy of windows but a prog that accesses a partition
    >>> on the hd to reinstall windows.
    >>>
    >>> Anyways when I was prompted to reinstall windows I erased the wrong
    >>> on. I have a legit key ,it isnt even my computer, Its my bosses. I
    >>> have xp pro. I need to either get that partition back or get a copy
    >>> of xp home, please help
    >>
    >> That tiny partition is a diagnostic partition and does not have
    >> Windows on it. Each dell, for a long time, has come with a restore CD
    >> that either is the real Windows XP CD or a restore CD that will wipe
    >> the machine and reinstall it as the day it shipped.
    >>
    >> Every XP machine I've seen from dell has a real MS Windows XP CD, your
    >> boss should have one somewhere.
    >>


    --
    spam999free@rrohio.com
    remove 999 in order to email me
  4. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    That is NOT true,
    Dell now on some models especially Dimensions and Inspirons (Home user
    market) include a partition with an image on it rather than send out a copy
    of Win XP so the OP was correct, and in answer to that original Posters
    question the answer is technically NO you cant replace it not by
    conventional means anyway however if you have a copy of XP home you can
    just install that.
    "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.03.05.04.00.05.272467@nowhere.lan...
    > On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 04:02:27 +0000, T The Head wrote:
    >>
    >> Leythos <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in
    >> news:pan.2005.03.05.03.50.49.487713@nowhere.lan:
    >>
    >>> On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 03:42:48 +0000, T The Head wrote:
    >> I have the cd " reinstallation CD microsoft windows xp home edition "
    >
    > Put the CD in the drive, reboot the computer, it should boot from the CD
    > and let you install XP. Keep in mind, it may WIPE everything on the drive
    > during/depending on the restore process.
    >
    >
    >>>> I was reinstalling windows xp home on a dell. Dell gives a reinstall
    >>>> cd that isnt a copy of windows but a prog that accesses a partition
    >>>> on the hd to reinstall windows.
    >>>>
    >>>> Anyways when I was prompted to reinstall windows I erased the wrong
    >>>> on. I have a legit key ,it isnt even my computer, Its my bosses. I
    >>>> have xp pro. I need to either get that partition back or get a copy
    >>>> of xp home, please help
    >>>
    >>> That tiny partition is a diagnostic partition and does not have
    >>> Windows on it. Each dell, for a long time, has come with a restore CD
    >>> that either is the real Windows XP CD or a restore CD that will wipe
    >>> the machine and reinstall it as the day it shipped.
    >>>
    >>> Every XP machine I've seen from dell has a real MS Windows XP CD, your
    >>> boss should have one somewhere.
    >>>
    >
    >
    > --
    > spam999free@rrohio.com
    > remove 999 in order to email me
    >
    >
  5. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    "Fixer" <steve@kelly90.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:42298660$1_3@alt.athenanews.com...
    | That is NOT true,
    | Dell now on some models especially Dimensions and Inspirons (Home user
    | market) include a partition with an image on it rather than send out a
    copy
    | of Win XP so the OP was correct, and in answer to that original Posters
    | question the answer is technically NO you cant replace it not by
    | conventional means anyway however if you have a copy of XP home you can
    | just install that.

    It seems to be a "policy in flux" for lack of a better term. On a recent
    Dimension 8400 purchase (January delivery from the home side) I got both the
    restore partition and the full XP disc. The Best of both worlds IMO. The
    restore partition utillizes "PC Restore by Symantec" and is invoked by
    pressing CTRL+f11 during boot. The usual "utilities" partition is still
    there too.

    --
    D


    Remove shoes to E-mail
  6. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:13:52 +0000, Fixer wrote:
    >
    > That is NOT true,
    > Dell now on some models especially Dimensions and Inspirons (Home user
    > market) include a partition with an image on it rather than send out a copy
    > of Win XP so the OP was correct,

    The OEM licensing states that the vendor has to provide a means for the
    end user to make a CD(s). With that in mind, I've seen a lot of Compaq's
    with a restore partition, but the machine, when shipped, included
    instructions (that no one reads, page 86 of the manual) on how to make
    restore CD's before starting to use the machine. This one client didn't
    make them, trashed the machine, and called Compaq who shipped them the 7CD
    set for $25.

    I suspect that Dell will also ship a CD set for a small fee.

    --
    spam999free@rrohio.com
    remove 999 in order to email me
  7. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.03.05.12.51.14.653488@nowhere.lan...
    > On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:13:52 +0000, Fixer wrote:

    > The OEM licensing states that the vendor has to provide a means for the
    > end user to make a CD(s). With that in mind, I've seen a lot of Compaq's
    > with a restore partition, but the machine, when shipped, included
    > instructions (that no one reads, page 86 of the manual) on how to make
    > restore CD's before starting to use the machine. This one client didn't
    > make them, trashed the machine, and called Compaq who shipped them the 7CD
    > set for $25.
    >
    > I suspect that Dell will also ship a CD set for a small fee.

    I've heard that if you didn't get and need the actual OS CD you can call
    Dell Support and they'll send you one for free.
  8. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    In article <390bugF5t1rgpU1@individual.net>, Erronius@warmtoast.com
    says...
    > "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.03.05.12.51.14.653488@nowhere.lan...
    > > On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:13:52 +0000, Fixer wrote:
    >
    > > The OEM licensing states that the vendor has to provide a means for the
    > > end user to make a CD(s). With that in mind, I've seen a lot of Compaq's
    > > with a restore partition, but the machine, when shipped, included
    > > instructions (that no one reads, page 86 of the manual) on how to make
    > > restore CD's before starting to use the machine. This one client didn't
    > > make them, trashed the machine, and called Compaq who shipped them the 7CD
    > > set for $25.
    > >
    > > I suspect that Dell will also ship a CD set for a small fee.
    >
    > I've heard that if you didn't get and need the actual OS CD you can call
    > Dell Support and they'll send you one for free.

    That is correct. If your system shipped with XP on it, Dell will ship
    you a free replacement XP CD. Some newer machines on the consumer side
    are shipping with zero media, but you can still call and request to have
    the media sent to you and they'll ship it free.
  9. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    That is an interesting point. I ordered and received a system from the
    business site. I did not get a resource CD which I did not expect to
    receive. I did however receive the Windows XP Home with SP2 CD. That also
    was not expected but pleasantly surprised me. I am not sure if it was
    because it was a business order though.

    One further thought. It was reported that MS is going to require owners of
    the top 20 manufacturers to call in and voice activate their Windows
    installation if they format and clean install.

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1738&ncid=1209&e=6&u=/zd/20050223/tc_zd/146474

    Now I had some doubts but upon receiving a new Dell this week, I formatted
    and clean installed XP and was never prompted to call in. I suspect the
    locked to BIOS XP versions such as Dell may not be required but only time
    will tell.

    Regards,
    John O.

    "Dave Navarro" <dave@dave.dave> wrote in message
    news:MPG.1c95d0e48499610a989691@newsgroups.comcast.net...
    > In article <390bugF5t1rgpU1@individual.net>, Erronius@warmtoast.com
    > says...
    >> "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
    >> news:pan.2005.03.05.12.51.14.653488@nowhere.lan...
    >> > On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 10:13:52 +0000, Fixer wrote:
    >>
    >> > The OEM licensing states that the vendor has to provide a means for the
    >> > end user to make a CD(s). With that in mind, I've seen a lot of
    >> > Compaq's
    >> > with a restore partition, but the machine, when shipped, included
    >> > instructions (that no one reads, page 86 of the manual) on how to make
    >> > restore CD's before starting to use the machine. This one client didn't
    >> > make them, trashed the machine, and called Compaq who shipped them the
    >> > 7CD
    >> > set for $25.
    >> >
    >> > I suspect that Dell will also ship a CD set for a small fee.
    >>
    >> I've heard that if you didn't get and need the actual OS CD you can call
    >> Dell Support and they'll send you one for free.
    >
    > That is correct. If your system shipped with XP on it, Dell will ship
    > you a free replacement XP CD. Some newer machines on the consumer side
    > are shipping with zero media, but you can still call and request to have
    > the media sent to you and they'll ship it free.
  10. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    "JJO" <jjo@nospam.ca> wrote in message
    news:yo5Xd.10603$JH1.493316@news20.bellglobal.com...
    > That is an interesting point. I ordered and received a system from the
    > business site. I did not get a resource CD which I did not expect to
    > receive. I did however receive the Windows XP Home with SP2 CD. That also
    > was not expected but pleasantly surprised me. I am not sure if it was
    > because it was a business order though.
    >
    > One further thought. It was reported that MS is going to require owners of
    > the top 20 manufacturers to call in and voice activate their Windows
    > installation if they format and clean install.
    >
    > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1738&ncid=1209&e=6&u=/zd/20050223/tc_zd/146474
    >
    > Now I had some doubts but upon receiving a new Dell this week, I formatted
    > and clean installed XP and was never prompted to call in. I suspect the
    > locked to BIOS XP versions such as Dell may not be required but only time
    > will tell.
    >
    > Regards,
    > John O.
    >


    None of the 4 Dells I've wiped and reinstalled (both new and used) recently
    required any phone activation, FWIW. The new units were purchased via the
    small business department.


    Stew
  11. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    In article <EX5Xd.25439$%Y4.22875@bignews6.bellsouth.net>, stew1960
    @cover.bellsouth.net says...
    > "JJO" <jjo@nospam.ca> wrote in message
    > news:yo5Xd.10603$JH1.493316@news20.bellglobal.com...
    > > That is an interesting point. I ordered and received a system from the
    > > business site. I did not get a resource CD which I did not expect to
    > > receive. I did however receive the Windows XP Home with SP2 CD. That also
    > > was not expected but pleasantly surprised me. I am not sure if it was
    > > because it was a business order though.
    > >
    > > One further thought. It was reported that MS is going to require owners of
    > > the top 20 manufacturers to call in and voice activate their Windows
    > > installation if they format and clean install.
    > >
    > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1738&ncid=1209&e=6&u=/zd/20050223/tc_zd/146474
    > >
    > > Now I had some doubts but upon receiving a new Dell this week, I formatted
    > > and clean installed XP and was never prompted to call in. I suspect the
    > > locked to BIOS XP versions such as Dell may not be required but only time
    > > will tell.
    > >
    > > Regards,
    > > John O.
    >
    > None of the 4 Dells I've wiped and reinstalled (both new and used) recently
    > required any phone activation, FWIW. The new units were purchased via the
    > small business department.

    If you buy a single share of voting stock in Dell you get a lot of
    interesting information...

    For example, Dell has an agreement with Microsoft that allows Dell to
    ship Windows XP CDs that do NOT require activation if the XP installer
    can find the service tag in your Dell BIOS. This only works for the
    "first" copy of XP installed on your system. If you install a second
    copy on your system (in a different folder or partition) then you are
    prompted for the activation key.

    The new Microsoft policy does not effect Dell under these conditions.
  12. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    "Brad Licatesi" <brad@pitt.jennifer> wrote:
    > > > One further thought. It was reported that MS is going to require
    > > > owners of the top 20 manufacturers to call in and voice activate
    > > > their Windows installation if they format and clean install.
    > > >
    > > >
    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1738&ncid=1209&e=6&u=/zd/20050223/tc_zd/146474
    >
    > If you buy a single share of voting stock in Dell you get a lot of
    > interesting information...
    >
    > For example, Dell has an agreement with Microsoft that allows Dell
    > to ship Windows XP CDs that do NOT require activation if the XP
    > installer can find the service tag in your Dell BIOS. This only works
    > for the "first" copy of XP installed on your system. If you install a
    > second copy on your system (in a different folder or partition) then
    > you are prompted for the activation key.
    >
    > The new Microsoft policy does not effect Dell under these conditions.

    Interesting post, Brad. Is the second copy actually spelled out in the
    agreement, or is that an interpretation or extrapolation? (That's a
    question, not a challenge.)

    Does it mention anything about the legitimacy of using two copies on the
    same system? I'm a bit surprised if it does, because over on various XP
    newgroups, including microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, there seems to be
    longstanding and widespread disagreement, even amongst the MS-MVPs, as to
    whether the XP license allows you to legally use two installations on the
    same PC. Granted, Dell's OEM agreement may be different, but I'd be
    surprised if they had the foresight to address this issue when it seems to
    have been overlooked everywhere else.

    BTW, do you mean activation key, or product license key? The license key
    would be that 25-character code you (sometimes) need to get XP installed in
    the first place. The activation key would be what you (sometimes) need to
    keep using XP after 30 days. I've multibooted several copies of the same
    Dell/XP installation on a single PC and have never had to activate any of
    them, so am trying to reconcile my experience with your information.
  13. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    In article <PiLXd.7364$C47.484@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, dgREMOVE-
    THIS1261@cs.com says...
    >
    > "Brad Licatesi" <brad@pitt.jennifer> wrote:
    > > > > One further thought. It was reported that MS is going to require
    > > > > owners of the top 20 manufacturers to call in and voice activate
    > > > > their Windows installation if they format and clean install.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1738&ncid=1209&e=6&u=/zd/20050223/tc_zd/146474
    > >
    > > If you buy a single share of voting stock in Dell you get a lot of
    > > interesting information...
    > >
    > > For example, Dell has an agreement with Microsoft that allows Dell
    > > to ship Windows XP CDs that do NOT require activation if the XP
    > > installer can find the service tag in your Dell BIOS. This only works
    > > for the "first" copy of XP installed on your system. If you install a
    > > second copy on your system (in a different folder or partition) then
    > > you are prompted for the activation key.
    > >
    > > The new Microsoft policy does not effect Dell under these conditions.
    >
    > Interesting post, Brad. Is the second copy actually spelled out in the
    > agreement, or is that an interpretation or extrapolation? (That's a
    > question, not a challenge.)

    It's what I was told by a senior manager at a Dell stockholders meeting.
    I have not personally see the agreement myself.

    > Does it mention anything about the legitimacy of using two copies on the
    > same system? I'm a bit surprised if it does, because over on various XP
    > newgroups, including microsoft.public.windowsxp.general, there seems to be
    > longstanding and widespread disagreement, even amongst the MS-MVPs, as to
    > whether the XP license allows you to legally use two installations on the
    > same PC. Granted, Dell's OEM agreement may be different, but I'd be
    > surprised if they had the foresight to address this issue when it seems to
    > have been overlooked everywhere else.

    I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I always
    "understood" that Windows is licenses for use on a single PC. If it's
    installed more than once on the same PC, I believe that it doesn't
    violate Microsoft's license agreement. I could be wrong.

    I have a removable IDE tray on my computer and I have the same copy
    (license) of XP running (booting) on three different hard drives, each
    one configured differently for different tasks. I believe that since I
    use them strictly in the same PC, I am within Microsoft's rules.

    I should point out that if you are running something like VMWARE then
    technically you are diving your hardware into "more than one PC" and you
    would need a second license to run XP inside of XP. At least, in my
    opinion.

    > BTW, do you mean activation key, or product license key? The license key
    > would be that 25-character code you (sometimes) need to get XP installed in
    > the first place. The activation key would be what you (sometimes) need to
    > keep using XP after 30 days. I've multibooted several copies of the same
    > Dell/XP installation on a single PC and have never had to activate any of
    > them, so am trying to reconcile my experience with your information.

    I mean the "license key". The Dell version of XP will only ask you for
    the license key if you install it in a seperate folder (as a second
    copy). I have seen a few exceptions. I had a client who couldn't boot
    XP, kept getting blue screens. Couldn't boot into safe mode either. XP
    was corrupted. I installed his XP in a second folder so that we could
    back up his files before re-installing/reformatting from scratch and I
    wasn't asked for the license key. Of course, we didn't run it long
    enough to get asked about activation, just long enough to back up his
    files.
  14. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    "Brad Licatesi" <brad@pitt.jennifer> wrote:
    > > Does it mention anything about the legitimacy of using two copies
    > > on the same system? I'm a bit surprised if it does, because over on
    > > various XP newgroups, including microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,
    > > there seems to be longstanding and widespread disagreement, even
    > > amongst the MS-MVPs, as to whether the XP license allows you to
    > > legally use two installations on the same PC. Granted, Dell's OEM
    > > agreement may be different, but I'd be surprised if they had the
    > > foresight to address this issue when it seems to have been overlooked
    > > everywhere else.
    >
    > I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I always
    > "understood" that Windows is licenses for use on a single PC. If it's
    > installed more than once on the same PC, I believe that it doesn't
    > violate Microsoft's license agreement. I could be wrong.

    Okay, thanks, I was just wondering if you had anything more concrete to
    refer to. Over on Microsoft's newgroups, even the MS-MVPs have been arguing
    with each other for some time now over how to interpret the EULA on this
    issue. You'd think they ought to have more information at their disposal
    than you or I, but even they are reduced to reading their own
    interpretations into it.
  15. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    "dg1261" <dgREMOVE-THIS1261@cs.com> wrote in message
    news:3OOXd.15556$OU1.4492@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
    >
    > "Brad Licatesi" <brad@pitt.jennifer> wrote:
    >> > Does it mention anything about the legitimacy of using two copies
    >> > on the same system? I'm a bit surprised if it does, because over on
    >> > various XP newgroups, including microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,
    >> > there seems to be longstanding and widespread disagreement, even
    >> > amongst the MS-MVPs, as to whether the XP license allows you to
    >> > legally use two installations on the same PC. Granted, Dell's OEM
    >> > agreement may be different, but I'd be surprised if they had the
    >> > foresight to address this issue when it seems to have been overlooked
    >> > everywhere else.
    >>
    >> I honestly don't know the answer to that question. I always
    >> "understood" that Windows is licenses for use on a single PC. If it's
    >> installed more than once on the same PC, I believe that it doesn't
    >> violate Microsoft's license agreement. I could be wrong.
    >
    > Okay, thanks, I was just wondering if you had anything more concrete to
    > refer to. Over on Microsoft's newgroups, even the MS-MVPs have been
    > arguing
    > with each other for some time now over how to interpret the EULA on this
    > issue. You'd think they ought to have more information at their disposal
    > than you or I, but even they are reduced to reading their own
    > interpretations into it.
    >
    >


    By "two installations/copies on the same system" are you referring to the
    actual functional OS image and then the hidden ghost image?


    Stew
  16. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    "S.Lewis" <stew1960@cover.bellsouth.net> wrote
    > >> > ...(snipped)...
    > >> > there seems to be longstanding and widespread disagreement,
    > >> > even amongst the MS-MVPs, as to whether the XP license
    > >> > allows you to legally use two installations on the same PC.
    > >> > ...(snipped)...
    >
    > By "two installations/copies on the same system" are you referring
    > to the actual functional OS image and then the hidden ghost image?

    No, I was referring to dualbooting two installations of XP from the same
    license, on one PC. Opinions differ as to whether you would need two
    licenses or not. I don't mean to rehash that debate here--it's getting
    off-topic and it's already been widely debated on other newsgroups--but I
    asked the question only because Brad's post in this thread used an example
    that hinted there might be something a little more definitive on this topic.
  17. Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

    "dg1261" <dgREMOVE-THIS1261@cs.com> wrote in message
    news:PjTXd.7463$C47.3334@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
    >
    > "S.Lewis" <stew1960@cover.bellsouth.net> wrote
    >> >> > ...(snipped)...
    >> >> > there seems to be longstanding and widespread disagreement,
    >> >> > even amongst the MS-MVPs, as to whether the XP license
    >> >> > allows you to legally use two installations on the same PC.
    >> >> > ...(snipped)...
    >>
    >> By "two installations/copies on the same system" are you referring
    >> to the actual functional OS image and then the hidden ghost image?
    >
    > No, I was referring to dualbooting two installations of XP from the same
    > license, on one PC. Opinions differ as to whether you would need two
    > licenses or not. I don't mean to rehash that debate here--it's getting
    > off-topic and it's already been widely debated on other newsgroups--but I
    > asked the question only because Brad's post in this thread used an example
    > that hinted there might be something a little more definitive on this
    > topic.
    >
    >
    >


    Understood, thanks.

    Stew
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