Alienware ALX

miahallen · Oct 26, 2004

I feel bad for anyone willing to waste their money on this overpriced POS.
<A HREF="http://www.alienware.com/Configurator_Pages/area-51_alx_sli.aspx?SysCode=PC-AREA51ALXX2SLI-D&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT&cs=1" target="_new">http://www.alienware.com/Configurator_Pages/area-51_alx_sli.aspx?SysCode=PC-AREA51ALXX2SLI-D&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT&cs=1</A>
In a couple more months nForce 4 SLI will be out and we'll a be able to get kick ass performance with ATI and AMD!!!

priyajeet · Oct 26, 2004

y do u say ATI ?
SLI is just Nvidia. For ATI we gotta wait for ALX videoarray.

:tongue: <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/priyajeet/fing.jpg" target="_new">Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.</A> :tongue:

Ned_Flanders · Oct 26, 2004

In a couple more months nForce 4 SLI will be out and we'll a be able to get kick ass performance with ATI and AMD!!!

A little mis-informed are we?

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miahallen · Oct 26, 2004

OK, maybe I'm being a bit speculative...but you gotta be pretty naive to think ATI's just going to sitback and watch nVidia do all this to them, come on. Either way, nForce4 with two 6800's would be nice, too. But I'm counting on ATI.

EvilMike · Oct 26, 2004

Ned_Flanders · Oct 26, 2004

I believe Nvidia has been working on this for around 2 years, so ATI may be 2 years behind

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Oct 26, 2004

Actually ATI is 2 years ahead, not only dual Boards, but <A HREF="http://www.darkcrow.co.kr/News/News_Content.asp?board_idx=2657" target="_new">dual boards plus dual GPUs</A>. :tongue:

Yes I posted this in another thread, but it's just so much fun.

Really those 2 years seem to be an exageration of the effort required. 2 years of work for a small team more likely. I'm certain the majority of their people were working on the FXs and getting them to work with the run-time compiller. The biggest wait was likely for the proper platform (PCIe) to appear rather than trying to develop any other single aspect.

I don't expect to see anything from ATI with their R480, but you may see something with the R5xx series, but even that might be a bit too early for something that might require an on die solution. I would expect something more like an ALX or XGI/MAXX stype solution near term. I'm sure ATI is thinking of solutions, but I doubt they'd be willing to jeopardize their other products for such a small segment of the overall market. Even nV considers this an enthusiast only product with limited appeal. IF we thought R9800Ps, FX5900Us, GF6800Us and X800XTs as a small portion of their market revenues, what then is this solution?

These will no doubt be the 'kings' of performance, especially if ALX ever does succeed with 4 cards (which would likely mean 4x speeds for each card), but this will never be the bread-winner of either company, especially when 2 mid-level cards can topple a single overpricced top-end card. The only people I see making money off of this are the system builders, who were already charging ridiculous sums for single card solutions, so why not $6-8,000 for ALX style answers?

As always we'll have to wait and see. I'm still just hoping for better surround gaming. That's where my money is.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

miahallen · Oct 26, 2004

Everyone keeps talking about how small the market is for these systems...and when you look at two 6800 Ultra ($500+) video cards this makes alot of sense. But this is a solution for lots of others as well. Think about this:
I buy a 6800GT today ($400), adaquate for todays games, probably more than sufficiant for at least a couple years...but then it starts showing it's age and I want to upgrade, another top of the line card at that time would probably cost another $400+...but another 6800GT would be down to $100 or less by then...and I'm back on top of the performance spectrum. This is the perfect setup for the mainstream enthusiast! Apply the same princable to more value oriented cards and you serve the budget enthusiast.

eden · Oct 26, 2004

I'm becoming more cynical lately, so I may retract what I previously stated on SLI and the long-term video card thing. Seeing as video cards rarely nowadays trickle down to budget from high-end, and are instead replaced, I don't think a 6800GT will stay here in more than a year. I could be wrong, but this long-term budget price thing may not be THAT obvious. The 9700PRO is two years old now, but have you seen it yet at 100$? Heck, the 9600XT is most of the time 160-180$, the 9700PRO shouldn't retail for any less. 2 years!

--
Ede

TheGreatGrapeApe · Oct 26, 2004

This is the perfect setup for the mainstream enthusiast!

Which is still a small market.

If nV has to wait a year or two for people to buy their second card, by that time you still won't be at the top of the food chain, you'll be around the upper middle.

I'm not saying this isn't a good solution for MANY of us HERE, however we are still nowhere near the 'average' computer user (especially if you go by VALVE's numbers!

).

What I am saying is that overall this will still be a small part of the market until it's a proven commodity, especially for people who have trouble using Overdrive, let alone overclocking their systems. Rememebr that the majority of people wouldn't know where to start looking in their BIOS to tweak their systems. They are one step away from console users. NO COMPANY would risk any of their overall strategies for this small market. SLI itself isn't so much the threat as much as he PROMISE of SLI is. And really ATI's biggest issue will be to minimize that impact, but not at the cost of redesigning the R5xx series to accomodate SLI or something similar. That's my point, whatever they do it will be in addition to their current plans. MAYBE you could see it in the fall/winter of '05, but every indication is that the R5xx won't have it, so they would be foolish to halt that production instead of trying to make ALX or something similar work. Even a MAXX or bridge style solution would mean they could use current chips on either two boards or the same board, where there is more fexibility. The thing that may be making ATI sweat right now might be the fact that Aleinware is so enthusiastic to support technology that competes against their ALX solutions. Which an outside observer might see as their having major problems with their progress with ALX.

I dont' disagree that SLI offers people like ourselves a whole new concept of upgrades (heck why mention the 6800GT when you could also consider an even larger market in the GF6600GT range who can stay 'mid-level' or even minimum requirement for years to come with a second similar card, whose total cost wouldn't be much different than the next gen mid-ranges IMO.

OF course this is really what things like this are about, Consumer Adoption. I think SLI would've had a FAR greater impact if it had arrived over the summer, because having exposed the technology so soon, and taking so long to bring actual product and demos/benchmarks to the public has stalled what could've been gigantic momentum for this type of product. The shortage of cards has not helped either, because whatever benifit was to be found from a GT with an eye on a second one in the future has been somewhat stimied by the lack of cards, and especially cheap ones. PCIe versions are few and far between, and cost more than MSRP by a healthy margin right now. This may change with the NV41 taking on some of that demand, but really it has given the comeptition some time to sell it's cards, and while the promise of SLI is great, the thing that will sell it is when [H], THG, Xbit, Firing-Squad, The Proffesor and Marie-Anne get a chance to profile it and benchmark it, and truely declare to the world, 'Holy $hiznit, This is AWESOME!'

Until that day there will be ALOT of buzz, but limited movement in cards because of it alone, IMO.

If ALX and other potential variants fail, then nVidia will have a very strong advantage with SLI if it performs as expected; but like I said, that advanatage will appeal to a minority of the current buying public (be they 5% or 25%). Not to say it's insignificant, but it's not worth jeopardizing all else to win, and that's what I think would be required from ATI to have a similar solution by early 2005. ATI's best hope is to rely on others with their help, wether it's Alienware, or the boardmakers like Sapphire/HIS, or some other 'magical' software solution. And really I have little faith in Magic, so it looks like the short term options are limited. And probably more important than the solution itself will be the promise that their IS an ATI solution. Becuase as you point out, alot of this is about the future of the technlogy, and not just about get the top spot in the Bungholio Hall of Fame this instant, although that's always a bit of fun too. :evil:

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Acert93 · Oct 26, 2004

I agree Eden.

Also, in 2 years we will all want boards with DX10/WGF (or whatever) with unified shaders, virtual video memory (Hyper Memory/Turbo Cache), and all the other great bells and whistles that will make games look great.

Who wants to run games in DX7 when they can run in DX9?

Just my preference of course

priyajeet · Oct 26, 2004

I have said that before a lot of times in other old threads. prices generally dont go below a cut off line. they dont give a [-peep-] if their card is sold or not. ati will still sell 9800xt for 399 or some $hit like that

:tongue: <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/priyajeet/fing.jpg" target="_new">Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.</A> :tongue:

eden · Oct 27, 2004

Which sucks if you ask me. The geForce 3 can STILL be found around for very low prices now. Even a Ti4200 can be too. And they dropped in nearly half the price now. But that's the same thing with the 9700PRO anyways.

I dunno, there used to be a time these things happened. The CPU world is the best example, and I wish GFX companies would follow suit. Price drops rather than just new chips change a serious lot. People buy when price drops occur. Most things in the CPUs go from 500$ to 100$ eventually. Great value really.

--
Ede

Manhota · Oct 27, 2004

Priyajeet the 9800XT Price in the UK has droped a lot to about £180 which puts it inline to performance values of the 6800 family and XT800.

5950 ultra Rediculous Price of £290
9800XT £180 Very exceptable
6800 £200
6800GT £280
XT800 Pro £290
6800ultra £360
XT800 PE £380

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Corsair_XL.html

priyajeet · Oct 27, 2004

tell me when it goes below $300

what i mant was local reatiler have their wish of doing anything. they want to give out their card free they can. But not nvidia, OEM direct sales. they genrally like staying above a border line.

:tongue: <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/priyajeet/fing.jpg" target="_new">Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.</A> :tongue:

Manhota · Oct 27, 2004

I get ya. but i give it a month or 2 for it to fall below $300 (£160) but hay u can get a 9700pro for £80 ($146USDollers) from here http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/9700_to_9800_Series.html

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Corsair_XL.html

sweatlaserxp · Oct 28, 2004

Another interesting thing that people seem to be overlooking is that, sure, SLI makes certain games run almost twice as fast, but what about 3 years down the road? It's using the current crop of games as an indicator, which actually doesn't prove that much. In other words, there is no hindsight to gauge how great the benefits really are.

Say NV50 comes out and they're benching Unreal 3. Say the single NV50 performs twice the FPS as a single 6800 Ultra. Will a 6800U SLI config. be around 80-100% of the performance of the NV50? Maybe not, because each new generation of cards introduces massive architectural changes that can improve performance in numerous and complex ways. SLI looks great right now because the comparison is apples to apples, it's the same tech. and current games, except doubled. Right now, people have a sort of 1+1=2 notion about SLI, but how SLI configs will stand their ground against single next-gen. cards may be dissappointing. I'd like to see how SLI compares to R500/NV50 with Carmack's new engine (whenever it's finished) or Unreal 3. The 6800U and X800XT absolutely blew down the walls with their performance, and the performance gap between generations may be even wider with the next set of cards.

Like Eden was saying about the 9700 Pro's sluggish price decline, I don't think the 6600GT or 6800GT/U will drop in price quickly enough to satisfy people who were planning on doing the SLI thing- waiting 8 months to a year to buy the second card because it will be cheaper. I'm not criticizing SLI, I think it's an excellent and interesting feature that gives great flexibility to the consumer who wants to upgrade, but it will be interesting to see where it stands in two or three years.

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Manhota · Oct 28, 2004

Very interesting and spot on points sweatlaserxp

it would be funny if a nv50 has twice the power of a 6800sli it would make the 6800sli redundant in my view because of the cost of it £700 for 2x6800ultras is to much plus the MB to run them.

but ive noticed ATI`s prices are falling faster in england compared to nvidia may be that is due to ati listens to there customers here and shows they give value for money on sum things.

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Corsair_XL.html

sweatlaserxp · Oct 28, 2004

if a nv50 has twice the power of a 6800sli

Well that's a bit of a stretch, but your exaggeration could prove to be somewhere near the bull's eye.

ATI`s prices are falling faster in england compared to nvidia

It really is supply/demand that determines the retail price. For example, I've noticed that the price of the 9800 Pro 128MB has actually gone up in the last three months, probably because they are still selling like hotcakes and yet ATi is trying to do away with that chip to make way for the X700s. They'll only take a profit cut on chips, i.e. price slashing, if that's their only resort...

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TheGreatGrapeApe · Oct 28, 2004

See I'm not sure about that, and this is 'the rub'. How much advancement can we expect from the NV50? Alot of the current techologies in the NV40 can't be fully utilized because there isn't enough power. SLI may expose those limitations or benifits. Some new features may be added to the NV50 and R520, but I doubt they will be all that much, and be more of 'efficiency changes' or some such, where they can utilize more ofthe current architeture to achieve greater effects without huge performance hits (just look at HDR in the FarCry 1.3 patch).

I really can't tell, because there is alot of rumour about the NV50/R5xx, but not enough substance (even what's known about the R500 doesn't apply to the desktop supposedly). Both will likely be gunning for many features of DX10/Next/etc. but I doubt in such an early refresh that they will incorporate all of them just yet. Which leads me to believe that for ATI it will be to equal nV's features, and for nV it will be to increase speed nd yield for the features.

As for UnrealEngine3.0 I don't remember but I tink you are right that they mentioned some features that are beyond the grasp of the current GF6800s (even in SLI I think).

I have to say I don't know if the performance will initially be amazingly different, but it will be a step up, I think whatever is truely geared at the Longhorn Graphics Package will be the cards that can't be equalled simply by doubling performance. Doing things in single pass, being able to do better culling calculations, etc will all have prety much geometric impact on the cards. Short term though I'm not sure how much the NV50 will offer over two NV40s.

I think alot of people will fall into the trap of buying the cards to have a killer rig, yet getting the same results as a single card because their game, monitor, system limits them to the same perfromance as one card, and that will be the biggest waste. Sure their rig gets 9K in 3Dmk05, but gets 60fps at max/max/max in D3 just like the single card, Whoopee!

I think when it comes to pricing, and even considering SLI, the people who benifit most will be those who buy their card to play their games right now (always the best way to chose), and then in the FUTURE are presented with an OPTION that isn't open to others. They can take advantage of their sunken costs into the card already in the rig and THEN decide based on available data, whether another similar card is worth the price upgrade simply to get playable FPS in ElderScrolls 7: The UnButtoning or Unreal4 the Monster Mash. IF you can pay $100 in addition to what you've already payed to get FPS that are similar to the $200 mid-range card that may be a wise choice for you as long as you can't personally SELL that card for $100 as well and then buy that $200 card.

In the end it will be economics that determines it's long term acceptance and success, but initially I'm sure it will mostly be the novelty and the bugnholio-itis we all suffer from somewhat that will attract the most interest.

But first we have to actually have something CONCRETE before we can even speculat with any level of realism, speaking of which those 3Dlabs cards will be interesting just from an architecture standpoint.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

TheGreatGrapeApe · Oct 28, 2004

After reading Manhota's post I just thought of something else on a bit of a tangent. Think POWER and HEAT (two things that always concern me most when building).

Think about this for Irony, the game that 'needs' (or benifits most from) the performance of the GF6800USLi doesn't come out until after the NV5x. Now you've spent ALL this money on a 'rarified' SLI Board, and two cards, PLUS you had to get a new PSU because of the MASSIVE power draw, and a few more Fans for airflow over all this juice.
Now the nV5X comes out and thanks to 0.9LOW-K (only way TSMC is making it right now) the card consumes actually equal to or LESS than the NV40Ultra and produces as much or less heat. So whith a mid-range MOBO, quality 350W PSU and the new NV50 you come out FAR ahead, AND your Energy Bills are lower. Now that would really be something few people saw coming. Now that would be the biggest potential "D'oh!" for me.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Manhota · Oct 28, 2004

interesting point greatape dident think about the heat/watt consumption difference.

Bot to the fx5600 and ati9600 people when would u think of upgrading ur cards and to what type.

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Corsair_XL.html

TheGreatGrapeApe · Oct 28, 2004

My upgrade path right now is to an X700/GF6600 (while it may not be a good R9800 upgrade, it's a damn good one for R9600/FX5700 [and even FX5900s to overcome FX issues IMO] users) and then to the best of the R5xx/NV5x when they come out (as long as they aren't paper launches too). Hey maybe even the XGI SM3.0 PCIe card, AHAhaha, just kidding, oh man that cracks me up, sure XGI! :lol:

SLI might be nice, but I KNOW that an R5xx/NV5x will be far better perfroming than 2 GF6600GT. BUT I may still keep the GF6600/x700 and then add a second card (in non SLI capacity) for surround gaming, if that happens. That's still MY holy grail, not 500FPS in D3.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp (or internet account) ! - RED GREEN GA to SK :evil:

Manhota · Oct 28, 2004

whem i brought a fx5600 256mb it was such a disapointment, a friend of mine had got a 9600pro and it just owned my card. that was 1 1/2 years ago never again i will make that mistake thanx to forums like this and online reviews.

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Corsair_XL.html

sweatlaserxp · Oct 29, 2004

Yeah, the FX5600 is awful. My current favorite cards are the 9600 Pro, 9800 Pro(128), 6600GT, and 6800GT; if I were building a system for someone, those would be my four recommendations.

The Ti4200(64MB/8x) is also a great card if you can get a good deal on it. No DX9, but I was very impressed with its performance in Doom 3.

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