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Please help me choose between Radeon and Nvidia

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November 22, 2004 12:45:55 AM

Hi. I have just finish reading the Tom’s hardware review of the AGP Nvidia 6600 GT and was thinking about upgrading my current Radeon 9200. However both the cards in the review were 128mb and I was wondering if the 256mb versions of the Radeon 9800 would give a better overall performance than the 128mb 6600GT. I can get a PRO or XP for between $352 for a Radeon 9800 Pro 256MDDR AGP8X Gecube to $559-$599 for a GeCube ATI RADEON 9800-XT 256meg TV DVI, GC-R98XT-ZD3H depending weather it comes with a half life2 voucher or not. Or $369 for an Albatron 128MDDR FX6600GT. At this point I was thinking the Radeon 9800XT because it seemed to perform very will in the benchmarks and in the VGA Charts IV
AGP Video Cards on Tom’s hardware the 9800XT kept up with the newer X800 on 6800’s. My current system is P4 3.0ghz, 1gb ram on a Soltek 865GR mobo. What are everyone’s opinions about the above cards and the benefits of 256mb ram instead of 128mb?

Thanks

More about : choose radeon nvidia

November 22, 2004 1:20:28 AM

those in canadian $'s? cuz if they aint, damn u looking in all the wrong places

Homer: (crying) ahhh i dont remember the last time i cried like this!
Lisa: When u put ur shirt on backwards
Homer: (crying) o ya, (crying) the tag chafed my skin (crying)
November 22, 2004 1:55:25 AM

No those are not Canadian dollars. I probably should have said that in the beginning. The prices are in Australian dollars.
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November 22, 2004 7:49:27 AM

If you wanna snap the fps barrier pick up the x800xt, if you wanna have a decent gaming experience without paying out your face, the 6600 GT or the 9800 Pro cant do ya wrong. The more ram the merrier.

Asus p4c800 Deluxe,1 Gig Mushkin PC3200 Dual Channel Level II V2,Pentium 4 3.0 512k 800fsb HT, Thermaltake Xaser III, Thermaltake Spark 7+, Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum Pro, eVGA GeForce 6800 GT
November 22, 2004 8:03:53 AM

if you do a lot of work on your machine apart from gaming, and think you might want dual screen, then last I saw ATI's support of dual screen was pretty poor compared to nView. (for an angle that isn't purely based on FPS.) Also, I'm pretty sure everybody including ATI owners really hate the way ATI does their drivers. Thief 3 came out, and I had to revert to a previous Cat version and wait months before they released a new driver that didn't break the Thief 3 lighting engine to the point of unplayability. And then, the one driver that worked for Thief 3 would crunch itself when looking towards the center of the first mercenary villiage in Far Cry, or the center of the Icarus map in UT2004, to the tune of 2fps (yes, two. even lower sometimes, I could count frames on fingers) whenever looking in those directions. As of a couple months ago when my job got busy and I lost time for games, the Thief 3 problem had been fixed but the others still happened. (so, if you go ATI, be ready for some drivers related hassle. Maybe even multi-boot a different OS and drivers for each set of games.) Not to say nVidia has no driver issues whatsoever, but with them when a broken game gets fixed, it tends to STAY fixed and not be broken again in the process of fixing another game.
November 22, 2004 9:11:52 AM

Nvidia drivers are all right (latley), you just have to wait 9000 light years to get new ones.

Asus p4c800 Deluxe,1 Gig Mushkin PC3200 Dual Channel Level II V2,Pentium 4 3.0 512k 800fsb HT, Thermaltake Xaser III, Thermaltake Spark 7+, Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum Pro, eVGA GeForce 6800 GT
November 22, 2004 10:45:31 AM

What are the problems with dual screen. I have a X800XT with dual DVI and I run 2 21" displays. ATI Hydravision is very advanced and custom and don't know what issues with dual screens you are refering to.

<font color=red><pre>\\//__________________________________
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre><p></font color=red>
November 22, 2004 11:05:58 AM

Im going to link you to a post where a H forum member just talked about this in detail its some really good information let me find it...

Ok go to this post "Two upgrade paths. Which one?".

Follow it threw, on the second page GraffixMonkey really gets into some good information between the disparitys between Nvidia and Ati Dual Monitor support.

Asus p4c800 Deluxe,1 Gig Mushkin PC3200 Dual Channel Level II V2,Pentium 4 3.0 512k 800fsb HT, Thermaltake Xaser III, Thermaltake Spark 7+, Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum Pro, eVGA GeForce 6800 GT<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Rx7000 on 11/22/04 08:08 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
November 22, 2004 11:08:50 AM

thanks, like I said, this is my first time with Dual Displays, and I am blown away at how usefull andcool this feature is.
But I dont know any other setups, this is my first.

<font color=red><pre>\\//__________________________________
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre><p></font color=red>
a b U Graphics card
November 22, 2004 3:35:58 PM

Quote:
I have a X800XT with dual DVI and I run 2 21" displays.

:eek:  Wow, and I thought that maybe your name was Richard, hence your screen name. Maybe I was wrong and it is rich(wealthy) followed by your initials. :wink: Must be nice.

MSI K8N Neo2 platinum, A64 3000+, 1GB Corsair XMS 4000 Pro Series, Radeon 9800 Pro
November 22, 2004 3:45:56 PM

256MB on 9800Pro is not worth the extra money. Can you buy HIS vid cards where you live?
November 22, 2004 5:54:31 PM

hey I'm gonna retract my info about ATI dualscreen, because apparently HydraVision can do spanning after all. Whether this is new, or it always did and I just didn't figure out how to get it working both times I tried, I don't know. But now people say it does, and that was the only real issue I had with ATI dualscreen. So the only non-FPS issue now becomes whether the feature sets of dualscreen are as good (if you even intend to use it) and the less than quality ATI driver development, which IMO aren't really major issues.
November 22, 2004 9:26:26 PM

Yes i can buy HIS vid cards. My current card is one in fact. Why do you ask?
November 22, 2004 11:39:44 PM

because they make rock-solid cards
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 22, 2004 11:46:03 PM

Quote:
hey I'm gonna retract my info about ATI dualscreen,

You should retract the whole thing. What you wrote is the past.

Ati and nV are neck and neck with Driver F'ups!

Any check of forums like Digit-Life that keep track of these things will show you that. And the statement about nV fixes not screwing up other games is also completely incorrect (check <A HREF="http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/digest3d/1004/itogi..." target="_new">Digit-Life bug list</A> which has Command and Conquer roll back drivers [on all cards], and Splinter Cell roll back on FX cards, no fix on GF6800 because it's an applicaiton bug [that doesn't appear for them on ATI cards]). That's just the current crop and notice they are pretty much equal in ATI & nV distribution.
And they're not the only instances, IL-2 Ver 1.xx on the GF4ti and 2.xx on the GF6800 was a perfect example of that, they also cleared up then F'ed up again Morrowind on the FX series, optimized other games while F'ing up Mafia in the process too. Ask anyone here who's played enough games and used enough drivers, at some point it's highly likely that some game will work better with older drivers, ESPECIALLY if you have an older card.
Seriously, if you think that nV and ATI are that different anymore you're fooling yourself, and misleading others in the process.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
November 22, 2004 11:47:57 PM

That still doesnt really answer my question. So far i have been told its not worth them money for the PRO but what about the XT compared to the 6600GT?
a b U Graphics card
November 23, 2004 12:07:39 AM

How much is a 256-bit Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB? Around here, that is a best buy and has been for ages. If it is 2/3rds the cost of the R9800XT it is a better buy for sure.

In some of these new games, the R9800XT is smoking it now at some settings. But they are still too costly to justify buying one. The 6600Gt is great, when the AGP versions are easy to find at or below list price. So far they are all over the $200 USD retail price over here. If you are buying a R9800XT or 6600GT, just make sure it is cheaper than what you can buy a 6800 for.

MSI K8N Neo2 platinum, A64 3000+, 1GB Corsair XMS 4000 Pro Series, Radeon 9800 Pro
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 23, 2004 7:37:19 PM

The XT is not worth a large premium over the GF6600GT. The GT will be faster in a majority of situations except the top resolution + high levels of AA/AF where occasionally the R9800XT comes out ahead. I think the future belongs to the GF6600GT though because the future games are not going to let either core play at 1600x1200 with high settings, so that's somewhat of a moot point for the long term. Only if you got a savings, not a premium, would I go with an R9800XT. The main reason to think of the GF6600GT and the R9800XT in the same field is if you are trying to upgrade from an R9800XT, in which case a GF6600GT doesn't offer much more, but when buying new, the GF6600GT would be a better choice IMO.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
November 23, 2004 8:21:19 PM

For the money $200 US. The 6600GT is the best vid card. Until X700XT benchies come out. Buy between 9800XT and 66000GT go with GT. I'll have to try one 6600GT. 9800XT was $499 last year.
November 23, 2004 8:30:14 PM

Quote:
What are the problems with dual screen. I have a X800XT with dual DVI and I run 2 21" displays. ATI Hydravision is very advanced and custom and don't know what issues with dual screens you are refering to.


i got dual monitors too, works great.

-------
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Brand name whores are stupid!
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 23, 2004 10:03:31 PM

Well he's talking Aussie Bucks, and the difference is about 200 of them, so it's pretty significant based on his buying options.

And as he's stuck with AGP I wouldn't hold my breath for an X700XTAGP. Why bother waiting for something that may or may not ever arrive? I stopped waiting for stormy night where a rain soaked Allison Hannigan, Jennifer Love Hewitt and Nicole Kidman have car trouble on the way to an audition and need shelter and <i>warmth</i> at my place. :evil:  And wouldn't you know it, the very day I give up on this dream and deciede to enjoy a night out on the town again, it's a thunderstorm! Damn, maybe they were there and I missed them! :lol: 


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
a b U Graphics card
November 23, 2004 10:19:56 PM

I'd have to agree with you Grape. The 6600GT would be a better buy than a R9800XT. Yet in some resolutions/settings the 9800XT beat out the 6800 even. But at those cranked 16x12 4X/8X settings none were playable, so who cares right.

So his price on the 6600GT looks WAY more appealing than the 256MB 9800pro or XT. I still would like to know what a 128MB 9800 pro or plain 6800 would cost him before saying the 6600GT is the best buy.


MSI K8N Neo2 platinum, A64 3000+, 1GB Corsair XMS 4000 Pro Series, Radeon 9800 Pro
November 24, 2004 1:01:47 AM

Quote:
Seriously, if you think that nV and ATI are that different anymore you're fooling yourself, and misleading others in the process.

Well, between the last several Cat releases, I've had EVERY game I own get screwed up somehow or another. Sure both sides have screwups, but you list Command and Conquer, I list UT2004, Far Cry, Thief 3... This R9800 Pro is the first ATI card I've used for 3D gaming in three or four card generations, and I've had so much trouble. To fix Thief 3, I had to break Far Cry and UT2004. With my current drivers, Morrowind has random crashes, UT2004 and Far Cry are unplayable when looking certain directions in certain locations, and HL2 crashes randomly too. Maybe they've fixed Thief3 again and I should update and see what happens, but this has never happened to me before with an nV card.

But then again I went from Geforce2 to Quadro4 to R9800 Pro, so my only sample of ATI <i>is</i> at the point when the games got the most complex with the most compatibility difficulties due to shader languages and such. All I can do is report my own experiences, and it's entirely possible I just happened to sample the worst streak of Cat drivers with my first ATI card. So if you say the FX / 6800 drivers are as unreliable as the ATI drivers nowadays, I'll believe you.
a b U Graphics card
November 24, 2004 1:34:44 AM

Do you use a driver cleaner? Seems odd that all your games are getting screwed up as I switch ATI drivers all the time and rarely have seen issues pop up. No offense, but Have you verified other people have the same driver issues and it's not a user/installation/conflict error? Cat 3.7 & 3.8 weren't that good, but from 3.10 on I am yet to see an issue in the 10 or so games I play. But then again I don't game on a daily basis anymore [crying baby tears].

Neither company is perfect, but honestly I think the tides have changed and if anything NV is a little behind in drivers now. There just seems to be more IQ issues with NV and they don't upgrade them often enough anymore.

<b>EDIT:</b>
Quote:
Well, between the last several Cat releases, I've had EVERY game I own get screwed up somehow or another.


OK, I re-read that and am convinced it is you and your installation methods and not the drivers. Every game? Sorry, but That's not ATI fault.



MSI K8N Neo2 platinum, A64 3000+, 1GB Corsair XMS 4000 Pro Series, Radeon 9800 Pro<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Pauldh on 11/23/04 10:38 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
November 24, 2004 1:57:01 AM

It is possible that something weird is going on. I've been suspecting something to that effect, but whatever it is I can't figure it out... my mobo is kinda crappy, so maybe a new one might help.

Many of the issues <i>were</i> mentioned in the Catalyst Known Issues and/or Fixes sections, but that crazy "1-2fps when looking in certain directions in Far Cry and UT2004" issue is just impossible to track down. Card gets awesome fps, and then all of a sudden, CHUG... CHUG... CHUG...

Started happening when I upgraded (or maybe downgraded) my drivers one time, probably for Thief 3. I always run the ATI uninstall program before putting the new drivers in. Maybe I should try a cleaner like you said... I've just been putting up with it and taking it as an excuse to work on my graphics instead of playing games. I reeeally want to play Far Cry the rest of the way through though.
a b U Graphics card
a b Î Nvidia
November 24, 2004 2:59:58 AM

It's funny everyone always blames the drivers, even me. :lol: 

First thing I will address is Morrowind, and you can check the past posts or talk directly to Titanion who I PM'ed this with (over an NWN issue). I can almost guarantee that Morrowind crashing is not Catalyst driver based. Morrowind is NOTORIOUS for crashing on XP rigs. For some F'ed up reason it works like BUTTA on Win2K, but crashes nearly constantly, (especially if you do not use <A HREF="http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=..." target="_new">the recommendations on how to avoid/reduce it from the ElderScrolls forum</A> :wink: ) on XP rigs. Heck I may just add a Win2K partition only for that ONE game, because in the year and a half I played it on my Win2K not a single crash to desktop, yes not a one, but I did get some reboot black screens because I had a weak PSU with the R8500 and everything I shoehorned into my old IBM 300 series business desktop when I first got it (forced a new build). Even the Dual MP rig did fine while I was waiting for the new build (I never run in dual mode though because no big advanatages and more chance for crashes). XP is the De-vil for Morrowind! It even played fine on Win98SE, so if you really hate it, and want to keep playing it, try Win2K.

With the amount fo crashes you're experiencing it appears to be more than just the ATI's because I can tell you, my R9600Pro runs without crashes in UT2K4 and HL2 (and many more), my old R8500DV is running UT2K4 without a hitch on a friends computer. And, I know others here who love FartCry and I haven't heard major complaints from them about stability. Seriously, sounds more like a system or user problem. BTW, did you ever use Deonator RIP, Driver Cleaner or the likes when switching to ATI (nV's sticky drivers cause more problems with other people's hardware than those vendors own drivers).

Two things to keep in mind, Fastwrites cause more issues than it solves, so leave it off if you are crashing. Second make sure every last thing, including and especially the MoBo BIOS and Chipset Drivers are up to date. These are basic things but many people take them for granted, even me (MoBo bios was causing crashes for me at one point, I too blamed the drivers, but update BIOS, no problems [even rolled back the drivers to check]).

The thing is out of all the things involved people usually blame the drivers first, and in my case the drivers did F' things up, but that was only because they worked on the latest version (over 2-3 months old at the time) of the stuff I should've already loaded up myself, thus it was my fault because they thought if kept my drivers current, I'd keep my BIOS current.

What it comes down to is both have HUGE issues for different people under different conditions. Look at either nVNews or Rage3D forums and see all the driver issues with each release. Hey I loaded HL2 on my laptop (FX5200) and it gave me a driver warning. Believe me, neither side has perfect drivers, and while both are improving on what they had before, they also encounter tons more problems with every new application, mobo, and feature that comes out.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil: 
November 25, 2004 4:02:02 AM

Well, that sounds reasonable. I may have traced my Morrowind crashes to having AA and AF turned on. The 1-2fps issue I know is either drivers, or an interaction between two drivers; if it doesn't ring a bell to you then I'll assume the latter and work on swapping out my mobo drivers and/or bios.

I wonder if Quadro drivers are more stable in games than geforce drivers. That Quadro 4 has been the most crashless / bug free card I've owned in games. Too bad it can't run them past Halo and UT2K4. (can't wait for my Quadro 4000!)
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