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Guest

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Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

I have a little argument with a 17 year old, would appreciate a
response, and if you know of a web page to explain this, many thanks.



Do wireless internet providers [WISP] sell their bandwidth in bits or
bytes?

Anyone know of a WISP selling bandwidth at 256 Kbytes/second for
$50.00/month?


thx
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Generally in bits/s. And it may not be the 8 bits to the byte conversion
that you are used to. The 8 bits may have added start and stop bits leading
to 10 bits to the byte being transferred and additional overhead for packet
headers. Then there's also data compression and that may give you more
bytes/s throughput.

Cable modems in the US top out around 2 Mbit/s (but you might be able to pay
more and get more throughput). That equates to about 200kbyte/s.

I assume that wireless ISPs could use both bits/s and bytes/s when selling
bandwidth. Just as with cable modems, you would be sharing the total
bandwidth with other people in your area so you may sometimes experience
less than the advertised rate if too many people are connected at one time.
On the other hand, you would not experience more than the advertised rate
since it is possible to limit modems to a maximum rate even though a higher
rate is possible (e.g. with cable modems). Wireless tends to suffer from
interference, so you may experience less than the advertised rate in bad
weather.

-Yves

<nothere@usa.net> wrote in message
news:ce31157c3c77fabcca5e574e22a6e145@news.teranews.com...
> I have a little argument with a 17 year old, would appreciate a
> response, and if you know of a web page to explain this, many thanks.
>
>
>
> Do wireless internet providers [WISP] sell their bandwidth in bits or
> bytes?
>
> Anyone know of a WISP selling bandwidth at 256 Kbytes/second for
> $50.00/month?
>
>
> thx
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On 17/4/04 5:41 pm, in article
ce31157c3c77fabcca5e574e22a6e145@news.teranews.com, "nothere@usa.net"
<nothere@usa.net> wrote:

> I have a little argument with a 17 year old, would appreciate a
> response, and if you know of a web page to explain this, many thanks.
>
> Do wireless internet providers [WISP] sell their bandwidth in bits or
> bytes?
>
> Anyone know of a WISP selling bandwidth at 256 Kbytes/second for
> $50.00/month?
>
They sell neither - they sell access to a common wireless infrastructure so
bits or bytes is irrelevant - you get a speed, in bits and bytes that varies
according to the number of users accessing the wireless node.

So I think the answer isn't what you're looking for but maybe it is the
wrong question you are asking !

If you mean what bandwidth do wifi providers use for backhaul, its probably
a minimum of 512 kbit/s giving all users an aggregated access limit of about
60kbytes/sec. ..... In the download direction. Uploading speed is normally
half that with ADSL, the same with SDSL.

I think you need to find out what the question really is.

Hope that helps !
 
G

gary

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Bandwidth is always quoted in multiples of bits/second. Some confusion
arises because memory and disk storage are measured in bytes, and
consequently transfer rates to these devices are quoted in multiples of
bytes/second.

The confusion is compounded by two things.

- The conventional "kilo" means 1024 when applied to memory storage devices,
and 1000 when applied to network bandwidth; similary, mega and giga mean
1024**2 and 1024**3 for memory, but 1000**2 and 1000**3 for network
bandwidth.

- The most commonly used abbreviations for data transfer rates are obscure.
If the "b" in "bps" is capitalized, it designates bytes, if not, it
designates bits. An initial "m" could mean "mega" or "milli" in different
contexts, so "M" is conventionally used to mean "mega", "m" to mean "milli".
For consistency, the "k" for "kilo" and "g" for "giga" are usually
capitalized, although no confusion is possible here. So, 100 Kbps means
100000 bits/second, and refers to network bandwidth, but 100 KBps means
102400 bytes/second.

An alternative recommended and used by various standards bodies is to use
"bits/sec", "Kbits/sec", and so on. This is much clearer, but I find that
the old conventions are still universally used by vendors and among users on
the web, so it's still necessary to understand them.

<nothere@usa.net> wrote in message
news:ce31157c3c77fabcca5e574e22a6e145@news.teranews.com...
> I have a little argument with a 17 year old, would appreciate a
> response, and if you know of a web page to explain this, many thanks.
>
>
>
> Do wireless internet providers [WISP] sell their bandwidth in bits or
> bytes?
>
> Anyone know of a WISP selling bandwidth at 256 Kbytes/second for
> $50.00/month?
>
>
> thx
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Yves Konigshofer wrote:

> Generally in bits/s. And it may not be the 8 bits to the byte conversion
> that you are used to. The 8 bits may have added start and stop bits
> leading to 10 bits to the byte being transferred and additional overhead
> for packet headers.

The start and stop bits are used on asyncronous circuits, such as dial up
modems only. They are not used on high speed access.

--

Fundamentalism is fundamentally wrong.

To reply to this message, replace everything to the left of "@" with
james.knott.
 
R

Ron

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On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 16:41:42 +0000, nother wrote:

> I have a little argument with a 17 year old, would appreciate a
> response, and if you know of a web page to explain this, many thanks.
>
>
>
> Do wireless internet providers [WISP] sell their bandwidth in bits or
> bytes?
>
> Anyone know of a WISP selling bandwidth at 256 Kbytes/second for
> $50.00/month?
>
>
> thx

They sell in bits/Second. They are refering the the channel speed not the
actual data delivered. The actuall data throughput will depend on what
format the data is send in. Then you have to contend with TCP UDP ATM
etc...

Ron
 
G

gary

Distinguished
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Correction - for data transfer rates, "kilo", etc. always mean powers of
1000, whether you're talking bytes or bits. "kilo", etc. refer to powers of
1024 when referring to amount of memory, as in 1 kilobyte of memory = 1024
bytes.

"gary" <pleasenospam@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:lFegc.18022$hz5.2537@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com...
> Bandwidth is always quoted in multiples of bits/second. Some confusion
> arises because memory and disk storage are measured in bytes, and
> consequently transfer rates to these devices are quoted in multiples of
> bytes/second.
>
> The confusion is compounded by two things.
>
> - The conventional "kilo" means 1024 when applied to memory storage
devices,
> and 1000 when applied to network bandwidth; similary, mega and giga mean
> 1024**2 and 1024**3 for memory, but 1000**2 and 1000**3 for network
> bandwidth.
>
> - The most commonly used abbreviations for data transfer rates are
obscure.
> If the "b" in "bps" is capitalized, it designates bytes, if not, it
> designates bits. An initial "m" could mean "mega" or "milli" in different
> contexts, so "M" is conventionally used to mean "mega", "m" to mean
"milli".
> For consistency, the "k" for "kilo" and "g" for "giga" are usually
> capitalized, although no confusion is possible here. So, 100 Kbps means
> 100000 bits/second, and refers to network bandwidth, but 100 KBps means
> 102400 bytes/second.
>
> An alternative recommended and used by various standards bodies is to use
> "bits/sec", "Kbits/sec", and so on. This is much clearer, but I find that
> the old conventions are still universally used by vendors and among users
on
> the web, so it's still necessary to understand them.
>
> <nothere@usa.net> wrote in message
> news:ce31157c3c77fabcca5e574e22a6e145@news.teranews.com...
> > I have a little argument with a 17 year old, would appreciate a
> > response, and if you know of a web page to explain this, many thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> > Do wireless internet providers [WISP] sell their bandwidth in bits or
> > bytes?
> >
> > Anyone know of a WISP selling bandwidth at 256 Kbytes/second for
> > $50.00/month?
> >
> >
> > thx
>
>
 
M

Michael

Distinguished
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One ISP is Canada that I know of is www.airsurfer.ca they sell is in Mbits.
and a total of Gigs.

Michael
<nothere@usa.net> wrote in message
news:ce31157c3c77fabcca5e574e22a6e145@news.teranews.com...
> I have a little argument with a 17 year old, would appreciate a
> response, and if you know of a web page to explain this, many thanks.
>
>
>
> Do wireless internet providers [WISP] sell their bandwidth in bits or
> bytes?
>
> Anyone know of a WISP selling bandwidth at 256 Kbytes/second for
> $50.00/month?
>
>
> thx
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 20:31:05 GMT, in alt.internet.wireless , James Knott
<bit_bucket@rogers.com> wrote:

>Yves Konigshofer wrote:
>
>> Generally in bits/s. And it may not be the 8 bits to the byte conversion
>> that you are used to. The 8 bits may have added start and stop bits
>> leading to 10 bits to the byte being transferred and additional overhead
>> for packet headers.
>
>The start and stop bits are used on asyncronous circuits, such as dial up
>modems only. They are not used on high speed access.

This may or may not be true (I don't think its correct by the way, ethernet
still uses extra bits), but generally the bps speed doesn't translate into
Kb/sec via a simple sum, due to a bunch of other factors.

--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc.html>


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G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Mark McIntyre wrote:

>>The start and stop bits are used on asyncronous circuits, such as dial up
>>modems only. They are not used on high speed access.
>
> This may or may not be true (I don't think its correct by the way,
> ethernet still uses extra bits), but generally the bps speed doesn't
> translate into Kb/sec via a simple sum, due to a bunch of other factors.
>

The only extra bits that ethernet uses are the header and CRC (error
detection. Everything else is data. However that data will include IP
header etc. There are no start & stop bits used in ethernet.

--

Fundamentalism is fundamentally wrong.

To reply to this message, replace everything to the left of "@" with
james.knott.
 
R

rico

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In article <ce31157c3c77fabcca5e574e22a6e145@news.teranews.com>, nothere@usa.net wrote:
>I have a little argument with a 17 year old, would appreciate a
>response, and if you know of a web page to explain this, many thanks.
>
>
>
>Do wireless internet providers [WISP] sell their bandwidth in bits or
>bytes?
>
>Anyone know of a WISP selling bandwidth at 256 Kbytes/second for
>$50.00/month?
>
>
>thx

Without getting into the bits bytes and packet overhead debate, be aware
most providers are not selling 256 K anything. They are selling UP TO (note
keywords here) 256 Kbs for $xx.xx a month. If you can get a contract that
actually states a fixed bandwidth number sign it, you and you lawyer likely
have these guys where you and your bank account want them <g>.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 13:03:30 GMT, in alt.internet.wireless , James Knott
<bit_bucket@rogers.com> wrote:

>Mark McIntyre wrote:
>
>>>The start and stop bits are used on asyncronous circuits, such as dial up
>>>modems only. They are not used on high speed access.
>>
>> This may or may not be true (I don't think its correct by the way,
>> ethernet still uses extra bits), but generally the bps speed doesn't
>> translate into Kb/sec via a simple sum, due to a bunch of other factors.
>>
>
>The only extra bits that ethernet uses are the header and CRC (error
>detection. Everything else is data. However that data will include IP
>header etc. There are no start & stop bits used in ethernet.

I think we're saying the same thing.

--
Mark McIntyre
CLC FAQ <http://www.eskimo.com/~scs/C-faq/top.html>
CLC readme: <http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/bchambless0/welcome_to_clc.html>


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 18:12:39 +0100, Graham in Melton
<nota@nospamplease.net> wrote:

>> Do wireless internet providers [WISP] sell their bandwidth in bits or
>> bytes?

>I think you need to find out what the question really is.

Above was question, but your response missed the mark. Others filled
in the details [WISP sell in multiples of bits, not bytes].

Thanks for effort...
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:49:24 -0700, "Yves Konigshofer"
<yvesk@sStTaAnNfFoOrRdD.edu> wrote:

>Cable modems in the US top out around 2 Mbit/s (but you might be able to pay
>more and get more throughput). That equates to about 200kbyte/s.

Thanks...

FYI, this rural WISP I use has 22 mbps pipe [mainly due to supplying
several schools], and when school is out, you can see large downloads
[50 meg] up to 200 Kbyte/s, and a pinch higher through out download
time.

Hence, 1.6 mbps+ via Karlnet Software and ten miles from WISP antena.

But, when school kicks in, it slows down...
 
H

Hactar

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In article <lFegc.18022$hz5.2537@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>,
gary <pleasenospam@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Bandwidth is always quoted in multiples of bits/second. Some confusion
> arises because memory and disk storage are measured in bytes, and
> consequently transfer rates to these devices are quoted in multiples of
> bytes/second.
>
> The confusion is compounded by two things.
>
> - The conventional "kilo" means 1024 when applied to memory storage devices,
> and 1000 when applied to network bandwidth; similary, mega and giga mean
> 1024**2 and 1024**3 for memory, but 1000**2 and 1000**3 for network
> bandwidth.

Not any more:

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html

> - The most commonly used abbreviations for data transfer rates are obscure.
> If the "b" in "bps" is capitalized, it designates bytes, if not, it
> designates bits. An initial "m" could mean "mega" or "milli" in different
> contexts, so "M" is conventionally used to mean "mega", "m" to mean "milli".
> For consistency, the "k" for "kilo" and "g" for "giga" are usually
> capitalized, although no confusion is possible here. So, 100 Kbps means
> 100000 bits/second, and refers to network bandwidth, but 100 KBps means
> 102400 bytes/second.

"m" ALWAYS means "milli" and "M" ALWAYS means "mega". Misuse is wrong. "mb"
means "millibit", not "megabyte".

--
-eben ebQenW1@EtaRmpTabYayU.rIr.OcoPm home.tampabay.rr.com/hactar
SCORPIO: Get ready for an unexpected trip when you fall screaming
from an open window. Work a little harder on improving your low self
esteem, you stupid freak. -- Weird Al, _Your Horoscope for Today_
 
G

gary

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Wow, a response to something posted at least 6 weeks ago.

The international system (SI) has standardized a set of prefixes that remove
the ambiguity between power-of-two and power-of-ten counting. Essentially,
all prefixes referring to power-of-two contain the string "bi" for binary,
as in "mebibtye" (MiB) vs. "megabyte" (MB). 1 MiB = 1024, 1 MB = 1000 in
this system.

When was the last time you saw a laptop advertised with 256 MiB of memory,
or a 60 GiB diskdrive? Most vendors do not use SI in their product specs.
Try doing a Google search looking for both "MB" and "megabyte" - you will
find hundreds of responses, even definitions, equating MB with 1024*1024.
The older, ambiguous system, with all its faults, is still widely used. If
you need to understand the data actually published by vendors, you need to
understand how they use the terminology, not how the IEC has tried to
redefine it.

See also

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/KiB

"Hactar" <ebenONE@tampabay.ARE-ARE.com.unmunge> wrote in message
news:c9e739$amb$1@pc.tampabay.rr.com...
> In article <lFegc.18022$hz5.2537@newssvr22.news.prodigy.com>,
> gary <pleasenospam@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > Bandwidth is always quoted in multiples of bits/second. Some confusion
> > arises because memory and disk storage are measured in bytes, and
> > consequently transfer rates to these devices are quoted in multiples of
> > bytes/second.
> >
> > The confusion is compounded by two things.
> >
> > - The conventional "kilo" means 1024 when applied to memory storage
devices,
> > and 1000 when applied to network bandwidth; similary, mega and giga mean
> > 1024**2 and 1024**3 for memory, but 1000**2 and 1000**3 for network
> > bandwidth.
>
> Not any more:
>
> http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
>
> > - The most commonly used abbreviations for data transfer rates are
obscure.
> > If the "b" in "bps" is capitalized, it designates bytes, if not, it
> > designates bits. An initial "m" could mean "mega" or "milli" in
different
> > contexts, so "M" is conventionally used to mean "mega", "m" to mean
"milli".
> > For consistency, the "k" for "kilo" and "g" for "giga" are usually
> > capitalized, although no confusion is possible here. So, 100 Kbps means
> > 100000 bits/second, and refers to network bandwidth, but 100 KBps means
> > 102400 bytes/second.
>
> "m" ALWAYS means "milli" and "M" ALWAYS means "mega". Misuse is wrong.
"mb"
> means "millibit", not "megabyte".
>
> --
> -eben ebQenW1@EtaRmpTabYayU.rIr.OcoPm home.tampabay.rr.com/hactar
> SCORPIO: Get ready for an unexpected trip when you fall screaming
> from an open window. Work a little harder on improving your low self
> esteem, you stupid freak. -- Weird Al, _Your Horoscope for Today_
 
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