ATI rollout plan = backwards?

[WRV]

I found this article with a Google search on ATI under "news". The attached is copied from a webite called "Inquirer".

"ATI's R520 delayed until autumn

July launch put on hold

By Fuad Abazovic: Monday 09 May 2005, 10:13
WE ALL EXPECTED to see the ATI R520 launched either in May or in early July at Computex but our sources suggest now that it won't happen that early.

ATI is now focusing on Multi VPUs as it realised that it desperately need an answer to Nvidia's SLI. Even if ATI launches the R520 next month, Nvidia will still beat it with its two 6800 Ultra cards, so what ATI really needs is that Multi VPU. First release Multi VPU, then move to R520, that’s the current plan."

end of article quote

Now I realize that ATI is "behind the 8 ball" on BOTH SLI and Shader Model 3. However, with Far Cry and now Half Life quickly moving to HDR lighting effects that call for Shader Model 3, what meaningful sales are "out there" for ATI dual card configurations that are ALREADY obsolete on their abilty to handle HDR lighting effects as are being offered by game developers?

It looks to me like they have their catch up strategy completely backwards.

 

[eden]

I wish someone would link me to one single doc which shows that only with SM3.0 can you use HDR. I thought that technology was there way back then.

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[TheGreatGrapeApe]

There is no such document because it's a fallacy of course.

HDR can be done a variety of ways. rthdribl has been doing it with PS2.0 for years long before SM3.0 cards existed.

The things is that ILM's OpenXR technique requires FP16 blending (or better), and as such you need a card able to do so in a single pass (currently limited to SM3.0 cards). Technically you could achieve the very same effect with the ATi cards only it would take about 3 times as many passes. Considering the speed hit of the GF6 in FartCry with HDR, that would mean that the X850XT would perform at about 80% or that already slow speed, so it's not even worth 'emulating' on non SM3.0 cards.

BTW, haven't I seen this thread somewhere before?


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[cleeve]

It's not backwards, but it's not ideal either.

The underlying motivation is profit. Both Ati and Nvidia could probably launch their next-gen cards early, but their current offerings are plenty powerful for this gen of games.

Are most X850XT and 6800U owners going to jump ship to next gen immediately? For what, these cards can play today's crop of games just fine with copious AA & AF. The only people who would upgrade are the hardcore.

It'd be nice to see them earlier, but fiscally it makes sense to wait, especially sionce they invested so much into R&D for the curretn cards. Not to mention, the longer they wait, the faster & cheaper memory is on launch...

P.S. Don't double post... delete the other post.

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[eden]

I've always found the rthdrbl demo to be sufficient for what HDR can be like. I mean, the stuff in FC is often excessive, if anything.

They should develop for what works best and can be used by as many. SM3 has many other better features than just a simple extra function for FP16 addressing!

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[TheGreatGrapeApe]

The funny thing is that even at FP16, supposedly minitors are not good enough to truely show the range and abilities of HDR using OpenEXR, so rthdribl is likely as effective because it's limitations are somewhat outside of the range of many people, especially if you use an LCD.

I think sweatlaserxp and I talked about this a while back and I can't find the thread right now at work (gee imagine that have some work to do at work ).

I'll see if I can find the article from B3D or whomeever from back then.


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[eden]

because it's limitations are somewhat outside of the range of many people, especially if you use an LCD.

I recently switched to an LCD (*gasp*, could it be? THE anti-LCD man himself? :lol: ), what exactly did you mean by that?

One thing I want to bring up, is that making too much HDR in a game could potentially ruin the fun effect. Proper usage definitely helps. I am guessing SC3 is a good example. Heck, the CSS effects in the central hall of the Dust level, on the ceiling windows are perfect examples of use that is occasional yet provides that "ow my eyes, it's bright!" effect.

Speaking of which, did you read on that PhysX expansion card slowly being supported?
I sure hope it goes mainstream. We could be on the edge of a new technology that will allow video cards and CPUs to no longer be held back, and focus fully on visuals and AI! Sort of like unchaining and unleashing the beast.

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[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I recently switched to an LCD (*gasp*, could it be? THE anti-LCD man himself? ), what exactly did you mean by that?

Well LCDs have less of a colour range than CRTs, in fact their outside range is usually 24bit not 32bit. And CRTs have a tighter spectrum. Even then CRTs are unable to fully display HDR effects, and this would of course be more so on LCDs due to their current limitations. Newer LCDs will push to true 32bit and better coverage in part thanks to truer white LED backlights. Whether this allows us to get to 40bit and higher on LCDs only time witll tell. I think Plasma can display well above 40bit, but I'm not sure I can't remember right now. I'm also unsure of OLED's limits.

One thing I want to bring up, is that making too much HDR in a game could potentially ruin the fun effect.

Yeah and that's sort of along the shiny water idea too, just doing HDR for HDR sake ruins it, when done right, like for transitions (leaving caves, foliage), for pin lights, for jacob's ladders, etc. it's nice, but HDR is one of those things that should never be the primary effect, even in SC3 it's in addition to everything else, it's probably the most dramatic difference, but truely it's still not a distraction because it's interwoven, and just a suplement to the game.

Speaking of which, did you read on that PhysX expansion card slowly being supported?

Yep, well it is going to be rolled into UE3 according to epic, so I'd say there's alot of support. I'll be interested to see if Dual core can do some roles 'almost as well' and also see Sony's PS3 usage of the cell's 8 processor elements to do the physics work.

I do hope the Physix will alow the CPU and VPU more freedom, but I don't count on a magic bullet gigantic leap, but who knows could be. The main thing will be how easy it is to program for.


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[eden]

Well LCDs have less of a colour range than CRTs, in fact their outside range is usually 24bit not 32bit. And CRTs have a tighter spectrum. Even then CRTs are unable to fully display HDR effects, and this would of course be more so on LCDs due to their current limitations. Newer LCDs will push to true 32bit and better coverage in part thanks to truer white LED backlights. Whether this allows us to get to 40bit and higher on LCDs only time witll tell. I think Plasma can display well above 40bit, but I'm not sure I can't remember right now. I'm also unsure of OLED's limits.

From what I read, LCDs usually handle up to 16.2 million colors, not 16.7m. Does it make SUCH a difference? Who knows...
BTW what kinds of HDR effects do you refer to, that actually challenge color depth? Are we talking purely alpha or the RGB spectrum too?

I'll be interested to see if Dual core can do some roles 'almost as well'

Very doubtful. From what was shown of the PhysX specs, it is far beyond what modern CPUs and GPUs can do for physics. In fact it's like a GPU, specialized so that it could run at 1/10th of the CPU's speed and still be faster. Dual-core will basically do up to twice more rendering and calculations, but not necessarily elevating to specialized chips' level. Sorta like if you could get a dual-core to match a modern GPU's performance.

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