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R520, R580, G-ultra, G80

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July 25, 2005 11:34:42 PM

I doubt many others will probably know just as it's so early in the game, but I was confused with recent information being released around the web.

Ok, so we all know the G70 and R520 were to be competitors. And then the R580 was to be the highend of the R520 released early next year, against whatever nVidia had as a highend card for their G70. And then I had assumed that it would be the G80 vs. the R600 for the next, next generation {late 2006/early 2007.)

But now I heard that the G80 is actually going to be competing with the R580 later next year, but it's going to be sporting technology that you'd expect would come closer to Longhorn. Such as WGF 2 and SM4. Well, of course that is just rumoured, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyways, I was just curious if anyone knows more about this and could clear it up with me. If not, then I guess we shall just await. :) 



<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Gamer_369 on 07/27/05 01:51 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

More about : r520 r580 ultra g80

July 26, 2005 12:14:42 AM

b3d's buzzing with talk like that.
July 26, 2005 12:40:39 AM

Heh, your above statement was just as unclear as what I'm asking about... ^_^;;

I'd really appreciate though-out, meaningful replies. If you're unable to provide such, then you may abstain from this thread.
a b U Graphics card
July 26, 2005 2:18:36 AM

Staggered releases would just about cover it.

The easy part is the first combatants, G70-R520

Now if R520 is much more than G70, then G71/Ultra won't be it's full response, but the 90nm version (G78?), Then the R580 and then the G80/R600 showdown. If the R520 reaches parity or falls short then you'll see the G71 introduced shortly after or even a while later if the R520 falls short, and then everything is pushed back, and maybe if they can milk it nV may not release the 90nm version of the G70 at all, except as a cheap to produce model somewhat crippled (ala X800XL).

Now that's how it was originally going ot go down, now who knows, especially if ATi speeds it's introduction to R580, also alot depends on nV's transition to 90nm.

But like all of these it's alot of speculation, rumour and PR. But in many ways it's the realit of he competition that determines things.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
July 26, 2005 2:39:26 AM

I can't wait for the G80, according to VR-zone it uses unified shader technology. And most importantly, the design of the chip on the drawing board is done.
July 26, 2005 3:09:35 AM

You still upgrading your rig next month?
a b U Graphics card
July 26, 2005 3:41:25 AM

Quote:
And most importantly, the design of the chip on the drawing board is done.

The thing about that is that the R500 and R520 were completed on paper, what, about 2 years ago?

And as we've seen they've had to go back to the drawing board. As for the G80 being unified that's not surprising really as the R500 has pushed alot of people in that general direction and so does WGF2.0 (which is supposed to be the high-end layer of Longhorn/Vista [which may come separately like DX does now and may launch at launch or later], while WGF1.0 will be the intermediate level [DX9 being the baseline, outside of the command line :tongue: ]).

We'll see in due time, remember the R520 was to have taped out last fall, and was also supposed to have a semi unified design (remember 24+8/8 ?)

Likely the G80 will arrive after this time next year , likely Xmas '06 (just my op-onion).


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
a b U Graphics card
July 26, 2005 3:43:05 AM

Yeah looks like it. Most of the items I want are making their appearance, and most of the major changes won't come until next year.

But up until day 0 I'll be constantly re-evaluating the components.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
July 26, 2005 5:43:18 AM

I recently faced that same problem of upgrading now or not. Originally, before I had any idea of the PC techno world, I was contently going to be getting a Dell XPS GEN 4 or 5. But obviously I've learned a lot to know AMD > Intel, and I can save a substantial amount of money by just having a PC built. I was going to get an Athlon 4000, 7800 GTX, and other good stuff, but then I decided to wait until Vista comes along, mostly because of all the cool features it shall sport, plus WGF v2. So now I think I'm just going to wait until Vista, G80/R600 (Whichever comes out first, no more waiting for the competitor), probably a dual core Athlon, a nice looking LCD (hopefully there will be one out by that time with no ghosting/blurring or backlight bleeding whatsoever).

And I will constintly be telling myself "no more waiting after this...no more waiting after this...better things always later come out....no more waiting... *Slaps self
a b U Graphics card
July 26, 2005 5:58:58 AM

Yeah, see now that's just it. I haven't had time over the summer (believe it or not I have MORE time once Univ back in session for the first 2 months not even TA work cramps that). I gotta get this built befor September so I can have 2 good months before real hockey starts and ski season begins. Cause after that it's back to being an end table for the PC :lol:  .

I'm not going to worry about the next gen graphics card, I'll get a just for now whatever fits the bill, if the G7xxx mid-range is out by then maybe that, or the RV530 if worthwhile, or the X800XL, but whatever it is I don't want it to need power connectors, nor create much heat/noise.

The rest is pretty much decided except for CPU and I will decide last minute Venice or SanDiego depending on feeling at that moment, X2 by next year once more dual support comes through.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
July 26, 2005 6:36:16 PM

I just saw this posted over at Anandtech, and while I'm not fond with spreading rumors, I do believe Gibbo is a reliable source as I have read news released by him before. The dates weren't quite accurate, but as far as the specs and such, it doesn't seem too far off:

Quote:
To be short and breif I have this information which is accurate and from the main cheeses at ATI, it is NDA but I am not under NDA as such so can give you some info:-

Crossfire working motherboards, graphics cards (X850 XT & X800 XT) available early September.

R520 which will be released in Platinum 512MB (9000 on 3D Mark 2005) available end of September but severe allocation issues, the willy waving product as ATI put it, but not easily available. Plus 512MB means a £450+ price area ish, I have pleaded with ATI to release a 256MB version so I hope they listen, but due to yield rates they may stick to 512MB for ultimate high-end as such. Same as G70, 24 pipelines, approx 520MHz core and 1.4GHz memory.

More readily available at end of September will be the non platinum which will no doubt perform identical to a 7800GTX, 24 pipelines, 500MHz core and 1.3GHz memory expect. Still only 512MB, but again pleaded for a 256MB version, lets keep our finger crossed.

There will also be lower end 16 pipeline version too, no doubt called Pro's.....

So ATI will have a product by end of summer, it has no real performance advantage over the 7800GTX, except for the Platinum edition which will be so severe on availability it will have a £500+VAT price. Obviously R5xx series adds SM3.0 to the lineup and other features NV cards have...

What ATI will rely on is their Crossfire out performing SLi.

Then expect NVIDIA to release a 7800 Ultra in October to beat the Platinum that ATI release. NVIDIA will do their best to stay on top. As NVIDIA are using the 0.11 process they have much better yield rates. Wheras ATI are on a newer 0.09 process which means yields rates to begin with are poor but with time this will improve and when it does ATI cores will overclock like champions, but expect that around R580 time which is Jan/Feb next year which is when NV's new botty kicker cores will show face.

So there you have it, those who have gone ahead with buying 7800GTX you've not lost out and you will no doubt not change your cards for ATI's new one and anybody thinking to buy its clear 7800 GTX is a safe buy.

P.S. X850 XT Platinum on both AGP and PCI-E is now EOL but X850 XT is remaing on both platforms and OcUK might have some treats for you soon on prices.

<A HREF="http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=31&t..." target="_new">Link to thread</A>

Like I said, this really isn't too hard to fathme...I think it's something we all kind of expected. From the looks of it, though, ATI's competition to the 7800GTX might be a little more expensive with the 512 mb.

I think as new information is being revealed, it's becoming more clear that nVidia > ATI this round, atleast based on all the talk going around. But of course the final judgement can't be made until both cards are released.
a b U Graphics card
July 26, 2005 7:43:16 PM

There's alot of reliable sources, and the ones at B3D contradict this info in a few ways.

The biggest issue for me is the TOP PE card having a core speed similar to the GF7800GTX, not likely at all. These look like the specs from 4months ago that included the silly 110nm low-k junk.

The mention of 'then the ATis will overclock like champions' seems to ignore the yield problem. It's not speeds that are the problem it's working units/quads that is the problem. The ones they do get out, those select few, supposedly run like banshees, so for such and exclusive card it sounds very low.

The mention of some 'expect the ultra to beat the as of yet unreleased card' talk and alot of the statements sound like rawe supposition (like this). Think about that segment and see if it makes any sense to you when you understand how yields work, and the concept of this willy-wagging he's talking about.

Sounds more like nv PR with the second to last statement;

<i>"So there you have it, those who have gone ahead with buying 7800GTX you've not lost out and you will no doubt not change your cards for ATI's new one and anybody thinking to buy its clear 7800 GTX is a safe buy."</i>

That line seems straight out of a salesman's handbook. Anyone who actually does anything based on those general and conflicting pieces of information deserves to get hosed one way or another. I wouldn't listen to WaveyDave's recommendation, or even the corporate guys (who aren't saying anything) at B3D recomendation, without seeing proof first.

Considering the number of 'reliable sources' out there who differ, and the location of this info, I'll chalk it up to more of the 'chatter' before release. And if this guy's as well known as the post infers, then to say he'd be the perfect patsy for a plant would be an understatement.

I seem to remember right up until the NV40's launch how many insiders KNEW is was a 12 pipeline 1,0 design.

TRUST NO ONE.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
July 26, 2005 9:54:50 PM

lol, I agree...

But I do feel that the 7800GTX is a pretty safe buy, right now. I mean, for someone who's looking to upgrade this instant, which many people choosing to upgrade pursue to do (meaning they don't neccissarily wait for the other "next gen" cards to come out, much less even know about them). then the 7800GTX totally rocks it.

Yeah, the Ultra beating the R580 is really just guestimation. But because he didn't say the ultra was neccissarily the "G80," couldn't that imply that in fact the G80 would be vs. the R600 later next year? Although he also never stated that the Ultra couldn't be the G80.

I don't know, I guess I'm just over-analyzing it to much on account that not a lot is being said, and it's always fun to talk and chat regarding the issues.

I agree to take what the person said lightly, but for me I'll tend to believe it. Hey, if it turns out to be untrue, it's not going to affect me that much; maybe mere disapointment, but nothing totally obscure.

There's so many possibilities that the R520 can go with. For example, the PE could very well be 24 pipes, with speeds exceeding the 7800GTX; no surprise there. The mid-range card could also be similiar with lesser pipes and speeds. The Pro could be a 16 pipe with lower speeds than any...

I guess I'm tring to say that the R520 isn't looking to be as big as people were expecting. 4 months ago, Gibbo, who was quoted in my above post, said something like "Yea, the R520 is going to blow nVidia out of the water, but it'll be way expensive." And many people were thinking of him to be an ATI PR

Of course, that was before many of the delayed problems ATI was having were released. Now it seems that instead of the R520 "blowing nVidia out of the water," it's merely going to be an expected competitor; not this un-godly, divine power-house card people were making it out to be. And as time progresses, the rumors are definately pointing towards this train of thought, and quite frankly, it's not that surprising. Atleast not in my opinion.

If ATI can manage their yielding problems, then it's not too hard to believe that we will be seeing 24 pipes. If ATI can't control its yielding problems, then I'm not sure what we'll see.

But you can emerge yourself so deeply with the issue, or simply purchase the 7800GTX, and avoid waiting for the card, and then for it to beome available. I think something we can all agree on is that the card is *expected* to release late Auguest/September. If they choose to approach it like they do with previous cards, then widespread availability may not show up until perhaps October. That's three months away. My suggestion for anyone who was originally waiting for the r520, but otherwise ready to buy your PC, to just go with the 7800GTX. The only reason I could see waiting would be for price differences. Which in that case, would be a good reason to wait. But ultimately, nVidia deserves your money for such a prompt release of such a good card ;)  (lol, that's somewhat a joke, so please don't flame me...heh)

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Gamer_369 on 07/26/05 06:02 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 26, 2005 9:59:13 PM

I think we can safely say the NV40 is a success for Nvidia, as successful as the R300 for ATI.
a b U Graphics card
July 27, 2005 1:32:04 AM

Quote:
But I do feel that the 7800GTX is a pretty safe buy, right now.

Definitely, a bird in thehand and all. Even if there is a better competing chip later, the GF7800GTX is a great buy now, and that's not worrying about some future products (why wouldn't you also worry about the Ultra if you were talking about 'good buy' based on an unknown future?) but comparing it to what you wou;d've bought with that same amount of money just months earlier.

Quote:
Yeah, the Ultra beating the R580 is really just guestimation. But because he didn't say the ultra was neccissarily the "G80," couldn't that imply that in fact the G80 would be vs. the R600 later next year? Although he also never stated that the Ultra couldn't be the G80

Yeah but that's because he didn't say much of anything, and I wouldn't even bother with the 'Ultra against anything because the original 'Ultra' may disappear if the R520-PEEEEEEEE.... is beyond it. Before the G80 is supposed to be the 90nm G70, which would be 'similar' to the one going in the PS3, that may end up only going to PS3 as R&D for moving to 90nm on desktop with either that or the G80, but it's a pretty sure thing that the R600 vs G80 is as unknown as the R4xx versus NV4x and G70 versus R520.

Quote:
I guess I'm tring to say that the R520 isn't looking to be as big as people were expecting.

And I guess I'm saying, no one knows even that, but everyone thinks they know based on the simple fact that it's delayed. Does everyone forget the original NV40 versus R4xx discussion on how the NV40 was way behind, etc, then they had a redesign so they must be hurtin' and they're screwed. Didn't turn out to be the case then either.

Quote:
or simply purchase the 7800GTX, and avoid waiting for the card, and then for it to beome available.

Well I disagree only because if you're worried about it you're at the point at which you're close to abnother release, if you're smart you'll get it from somehwere that gives you 30days to return it 'just in case'. Same for buying GF6800s and X850s just before the G70 launch. Unless you have to complete your build now (if you've been waiting too damn long buy now), or unless you don't suffer any buyers remorse it may come back to haunt you shortly, and if you already have a solid card it wouldn't be worth it unless there's a game you can't play IMO.
Also, if you're one to worry about such things then you might want to see if eVGA will extend their upgrade to 120-150 days to help you move to the Ultra when/if it comes out.

Quote:
If they choose to approach it like they do with previous cards, then widespread availability may not show up until perhaps October.

Already stated, no paper launch, thus the August-Sept launch instead of this month.

The main thing is, if you're worried wait, if you're not then go ahead. For some people it doesn't mater, they'll get the GF7800GTX, and then when the R520 hits, they'll get that, and then when the Ultra hits they may get that, etc. However if you've been following closely at all there's no way that the new design isn't tweaking the curiosity to the point at which you'd be willing to wait a month.

Considering how little is truely known, it's amazing how 'solid' people think their recommendations are based on the unknown. It could be like waiting for the FX, but then again it could be like waiting for the GF4/R9700 a month before launch. To me if you haven't already decided on the GF7800GTX, there's nothing new to change that position, even the economics haven't changed much thanks to there being no current competition.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
a b U Graphics card
July 27, 2005 1:37:08 AM

Yep, although nV unfortunately didn't get the chance to enjoy it as long as ATi enjoyed the R300 series, but the actual line did last more (unless you split PCIe and AGP). Very quick turn-arounds this time.

Those are definitely the winners of each generation, now to see what comes next.

BTW, would you consider the G70 as the NV48 and part of the last generation with tweaks similar to the FX5700 (or X800 even), or a new generation?


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK :evil: 
July 27, 2005 2:55:55 AM

Quote:
(why wouldn't you also worry about the Ultra if you were talking about 'good buy' based on an unknown future?) but comparing it to what you wou;d've bought with that same amount of money just months earlier.

True, but by waiting for the ultra it could be October at the earliest, assuming you'd like to believe Gibbo. Why not just wait until the r520, and prices should already go down with the GTX with the competition finally out. I have seen a GTX at newegg, though, for only $525. If you honestly think the Ultra will come out at less or equal to that amount, then by all means, wait. But I doubt the Ultra would intially come out at that price. It would definately have to be more than $600, being as that was the price they released the GTX. And then it could be a few months before price decreases became evident. Basically, it would be like the whole cycle of the GTX, only further in the future, thus adding more time for people who want to upgrade now.

Quote:
Yeah but that's because he didn't say much of anything, and I wouldn't even bother with the 'Ultra against anything because the original 'Ultra' may disappear if the R520-PEEEEEEEE.... is beyond it.

I honestly don't think the r520 would be so great that a nVidia Ultra could not compete with it. You're talking about having atleast 32 or more pipes with insane speeds. And if that's the case, then what will be new with the R580 if all the highend features are in the r520. I don't know, maybe I'm just mis-interpreting your statement.

Quote:
but it's a pretty sure thing that the R600 vs G80 is as unknown as the R4xx versus NV4x and G70 versus R520.

So is it established that the G80 will be competing with the r600? If so, then my original question is answered. But that leaves some questions of doubt with Gibbo's comments. Because if he said the Ultra will be released in Oct., then what will nVidia's answer be to the r580? Perhaps the Ultra will in fact be a strong competitor with the r580, but released months earlier. Somewhat with how the GTX was released months earlier than the r520.

Quote:
And I guess I'm saying, no one knows even that, but everyone thinks they know based on the simple fact that it's delayed.

I somewhat agree, though being delayed can be a strong sign that what the co. expected isn't happening. That's not to say they won't be able to fix it, and have it be a kick ass series, but remember that originally people were expecting the r520 do be 32 pipes? It just seems very unlikely at this point, but I guess it can always happen.

Quote:
Well I disagree only because if you're worried about it you're at the point at which you're close to abnother release, if you're smart you'll get it from somehwere that gives you 30days to return it 'just in case'.

Yea, I believe EVGA or something has a step up plan that allows you to replace your card within 3 months. But based on the name, I guess it would have to be a better card, and it wouldn't work with ATI. So to really take advantage of this, you would need to buy the card three months before the Ultra was expected to release. That way, when it did come along, I assume you could always step up. But be sure there's a tentative date when the Ultra is said to come. Don't just assume it's going to be in October, and go out and buy the GTX next month. I foresee nVidia giving some kind of head's up towards the Ultra's release, just as was done for the GT.

Quote:
Already stated, no paper launch, thus the August-Sept launch instead of this month

That's right, but it all depends on how they ship the products, and where they get shipped, too. Just because there won't be a paper-launch doesn't mean you are prevented from waiting a month after release for the card.

Quote:
The main thing is, if you're worried wait, if you're not then go ahead. For some people it doesn't mater, they'll get the GF7800GTX, and then when the R520 hits, they'll get that, and then when the Ultra hits they may get that, etc. However if you've been following closely at all there's no way that the new design isn't tweaking the curiosity to the point at which you'd be willing to wait a month.

Or they can just skip the r520 and go to the Ultra. Personally, I don't foresee a significant leap in performance in comparison with the GTX, but that's only based on rumors and speculation, and I don't want anyone quoting me on that. We'll just say that in these next few months, both ATI and nVidia are going to be fighting harder than ever to stay on top. If the r520 does indeed blow the GTX out of the water, then I predict the nVidia Ultra to soon follow. Whereas if the r520 and GTX competed to a minimal difference, then I believe the Ultra would go head to head with the r580 when they are expected to release early next year.

Quote:
However if you've been following closely at all there's no way that the new design isn't tweaking the curiosity to the point at which you'd be willing to wait a month.

Honestly, I would personally be hesitant with purchasing such a card that has been delayed this long due to yeilding problems...I would feel safer going with nVidia, but that's just me. I don't know if this is the right time to bring it up, but anyone remember Voodoo 3?

Quote:
To me if you haven't already decided on the GF7800GTX, there's nothing new to change that position, even the economics haven't changed much thanks to there being no current competition.

True dat...theres nothing new, just the same information that's been out for months now, that ATI is having yielding problems, and is expected to ship out cards August or September. But wait a minute, weren't they originally planning on releasing this card back in Spring??? Just thought I'd bring up the fact that you can never be sure with release dates. We atleast know that the GTX is already here, and can go simply purchase it off Newegg at this moment.

Overall, though, I think we both ultimately agree with eachother when we say that what's rumored is rumored, and what's fact is fact. Mostly right now being discussed is rumor. <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Gamer_369 on 07/26/05 11:04 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
July 27, 2005 5:28:47 AM

you know what, i agree, i'll just take a 2 month nap and wake up with the r520 released and everything will be bueno =]

<font color=red>gforce mx100/200 @ 230/440 =]</font color=red>
!