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Overclock X800XL verses 800XT

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August 1, 2005 11:31:45 PM

OK, here is my 800XL over-clock results, and why I report them as I do.

First, I only am reporting the VPU and memory clock verses FPS against any benchmarks since FPS is subsystem related. The same VPU clock will perform FPS wise, more than likely, better on a newer PC than mine (an older ASUS P4PE with the 865 chipset). But, the VPU should over-clock the same between PC’s, or no? Do we have any comments on that statement?

RESULTS
X800XL 400/1000 (stock) 536/1000 (over-clock) – Sapphire 256 Meg retail part.
X800XT 500/1000 (stock)

The question is, can the 110nm XL part, under the same conditions, overlap the 130nm XT’s over-clock rates? Some members have done well with liquid cooling for just plain VP clock increases, but the question remains; can the 800XL overlap and exceed a higher rated parts over-clock?

To put it another way, and to clarify (Scottchen), if I buy a X800XT and an X800XL, will a reliable XL population overlap the over-clock distribution that the XT part achieves and what are the odds of buying a card that fits that standard deviation and overlap? This is a good question because the XL is a smaller core process than the XT, and it seems that it would clock better. But, the XL uses a poorer dielectric than the XT, so some of the expected performance is mitigated by the dielectric choice. Still, some parts are able to surpass rated specs pretty easily, and well into the realm of the “better” part. The old Celeron 300MHz CPU is a prime example. Most would run at 450MHz with just a jumper change. Yes, the higher rated part was just binned, and the CPU’s were the really same. Intel just got so good no real 300MHz parts were really made anymore. The X800 XL and XT VPU differences makes the gamble harder to quantify, however.

I do NOT have any data other than my card, and the 36MHz VPU core clock sure doesn’t seem like most any XL can exceed the XT in pure performance on a same-same basis.

Another good experiment would be to compile the data for over-volt biased cards (here we go again, Scottchen) to see if that will create the overlap that would signify that this card is a deal if over voltage bias is OK. Some issue may arise from how much voltage, however. What’s fair here? And no, I don’t want to include water-cooling VPU’s because systems are so different and expensive to buy that more people can benefit from the results of the air cooled tests. Or, we can add water cooling, too?

Some of the issues that might bias this table, depending on who wants to help fill it out, are what is considered an over-clock on the VPU?

I considered an over-clock successful if I can play Far Cry several hours with no lock-ups or visual anomalies. I used patch 1.1 and do have some questions;

1.0 I experienced a checkerboard pattern in Far Cry that wiped out rendering on every other square, alternating between each row, till I dropped into windows XP Home. Then, the rendering error was still stuck on 3D type desktop areas (title bars above programs and icons). If I rebooted, the VPU seemed to reset itself and looked fine in XP, till it would crash again in the game after minutes to hours.
1.1 I do not fully know what the error is from, but can guess that one side of the VPU feeding the double pumped memory is sending bit errors to the memory and the memory once corrupted, freezes. I rebooted, and dropped the clock back 6MHz until it was stable (see point number two) as long as I played the game.
1.2 I didn’t over-clock the memory because the Samsung memory chips seem almost too sensitive to reliably over-clock, and the benefits were pretty small on my benchmarks (10 mark increases on 3Dmark03 from 1000MHz to 1012MHz). And, the XT part is rated the same. Does it use the same memory?

2.0 I posted a question about rendering errors and got no responses. In the game, Far Cry, some objects like helicopters or jeeps would render bright yellow. I can’t fairly say that my card is running at 536MHz until I know that this is a software error, or a hardware error. I report the 536MHz number because it also does it in stock form making me thing that it is a driver related rendering error. But, I could have a bad card, doubt it, but I could. The checkerboard error in 1.0 above though, is definitely the card.
2.1 Is my over-clock real? Comments.

3.0 If we leave the memory speed alone, I’m assuming that the results will be easier to define, and test. I do not know if upping the memory really hurts the VPU clock side’s ultimate over-clock. But, if the memory is the same, it should still be a fair comparison.

4.0 Be careful of so called over-clock utilities like Rad Clocker. Mine tests WAY optimistic compared to freeze free gaming. It reported 545MHz, but my VPU would turn the monitor into a Betty Crocker picnic tablecloth checkerboard pattern faster than you can say, “here come the ants!” So use a harder game engine somehow.

If enough people fill in the table, statistics can reliably determine the distribution of XL and XT performance, and how big the overlap is. If the overlap were pretty large (like the 300MHz Celeron example) a good bet would be to buy the XL part. Or, you might see if your results significantly improve with more voltage against a similarly bias over-voltage XT part. Then again, it may say to get really better speeds, just get the XT part because the overlap is too small to expect truly bargain bin performance increases.

The two tables will have two sets of entries,

XL and XT with stock voltages and VPU speeds they achieve.
XL and XT with over-voltages and the VPU speeds they achieve.

From this, statistics can calculate the distribution, overlap, and percentage of the population that can be expected inside the overlap.

ATI already does this at marketed speeds. We just want to do it at over-clocked speeds.

Does anybody have a body of data to start with? Is the GreatApe able to improve out DOE? Scottchen Et all?


The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by rower30 on 08/01/05 09:24 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 1, 2005 11:53:04 PM

Wusy,

If you mean my BIOS, you've all trying to do that on a regular basis to no avail.

Now if you mean my cards BIOS, I'm all ears.

Regards,
rower30
(In the end you guts are OK since you'll be just like me someday.)

The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 2, 2005 12:13:36 AM

This is where your reputation precedes you.

I'm still trying to figure out my genius, species, and phyla as well as what political affiliation I am. So, I need to make sure I don't miss a point of personnel improvement with one for my graphics card! A mind is a terrible thing to waste, right.

OK, more on the BIOS. Is this a Sapphire BIOS flash, or and ATI flash and what would indicate the needed flash? The yellow rendered objects?

Regards,
rower30


The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
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August 2, 2005 12:42:44 AM

Wusy,

You might have been right the first AND second time.

http://www.techpowerup.com/bios/
Sapphire X800 XL (AGP) 256 MB Jan 20th 2005 7:19 PM May 11th 2005 10:12 AM 400 / 490
Samsung 1.6 Download (this is a BIOS)
Sapphire.X800XT.256.Samsung16.040506
No mention what this does, though.

And your first comment does have a pencil Voltage mod.
http://www.techpowerup.com/articles/overclocking/voltmo...
This, obviously, allows over volting the VPU some.

So if you meant the BIOS, you were right the first time and
If you mean the voltage mod, you were right the second time.

Regards,
Rower30

The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 2, 2005 1:11:04 AM

Don't ask me, i've got an Albatron 7800GTX now:D  with an Athlon64 X2 3800+.
August 2, 2005 1:18:13 AM

Wuzy,

The other brat pack member (you are now the brat pack!), Scotty, uses liquid cooling on his card to good effect. I have the liquid cooling on my CPU, but doubt if my smaller single radiator can manage the extra load. I just went for stock temps with low noise. I imagine for over-clocker’s the liquid cooling (if they have it) may be a better way to go than the voltage?

Again, I went liquid to kill the noise from all the junk in my case. Two SCSI drives and a noisy, real noisy, PC power and cooling power supply and the related HD cooling make a lot of racket.


Regards,
Rower30

The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 2, 2005 1:31:14 AM

Why don't you just crawl back to your rathole already... fu<i></i>cking cuntwrap.

Don't start insulting me in another thread, like i said, war of words are only allowed through PM, or the other section, but i insist on the former, since pedophiles roam the others section.
August 2, 2005 2:26:30 AM

Insult you? You seem to be doing it just fine by yourself. If you don't like it, act differently and wars of words mind you? Well, if you consider pointing out your inconsiderate behavior inconsiderate...better still, what's the real problem; never listen to your parents? I don't think my form of consideration is the one that needs to be considered.

Also, you do indeed have intellectual input no matter how off putting you are to everyone. When your input is offered, you want to take your ball and go home. Did that too, at about the age of five. Someday you will have to listen to someone. I'll crawl nowhere I don't want to go and it seems you enjoy a pretty good rat hole existence in this news group from what I see.

Oh, Now you can't even determine if I'm some sort of human, alien, or inanimate object, what political affiliation I am or any other attribute. And I'm insulting whom? You guys are a train wreck, you’re everyplace and doing no good anywhere.


The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 2, 2005 2:44:34 AM

Now you're insulting everybody who visits this forum. Rower honestly, take the hint from fate, and fu<i></i>ck off.
August 2, 2005 3:13:49 AM

Insult everyone...Oh boy, now we reach out and pretend everyone is our friend. It’s so nice of you to put everyone in your company. And "I" insulted everyone? Bullies incorporated. I'm not insulting anyone that isn't just like you, and most are pretty pleasant. It isn't my remarks that are making a fool of you, either.

The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 2, 2005 4:10:14 AM

Quote:
I'm not insulting anyone that isn't just like you


People like me, people who helps newbies, and writes guides. Wow you're insulting a lot of people.

Therefore excuse me, i believe you're the one that's being a douche here. Bully? i'm not the bully here, i'm simply pointing out the fact, that i don't like liars. I don't really feel like continuing this pointless argument. I only got 2 objectives right now, helping people, and persuade people to join Ronald Reagan republican party. Arguing with a Clinton like liar is pointless.
August 2, 2005 7:26:22 AM

calm down scott.. -_-
it all started with him saying you have a great liquid system... which we all know. now, just hold back those insults (both of you) and we can help solve his problem.

<font color=red>gforce mx100/200 @ 230/440 =]</font color=red>
August 2, 2005 7:31:06 AM

and to answer your question:
i don't have either of those cards, but i did hear that x800xl does not OC wel. a x800pro usually out clocks it. it seems strange with the 110nm revivsion ATI made, plus the lower power consumption. but its true. the x800xl does not oc well. and since i'm pretty versed with water cooling:

okay... single radiator, okay for CPU, but definitly not okay for CPU+GPU. if you want to push that x800xl further. your loop should look something like this:

cpu block - doesn't matter, i recommend MCW 600x
gpu block - maze 4
pump - aquaxtreme 50z/d5
radiator - bip3/bix2/bix3/thermochill 120.2,3/dual heater core



<font color=red>gforce mx100/200 @ 230/440 =]</font color=red>
August 2, 2005 5:21:31 PM

Yes, my system is inadequate for the additional heat load of a VPU. A good water -cooling system should see a pretty constant water temperature through the system, but it should be slightly lowest right after the radiator like you point out. The last statement is made off of the assumption that you want to cool the CPU more than the VPU.

Nowadays, it seems like the VPU needs to take the heat off more than the CPU! I haven't compared CPU clocks with VPU clocks as far as FPS goes, though. It could be true that the CPU is more important if it can take substantially more over-clock than the VPU. My Intel 3.06GHz isn't a good over-clocker at all. But, AMD’s seem to really crank for a lot of users.

I put the question to the X800XT verses XL as more of an exercise to illustrate that there is a logical way to decide on a cards ability to be a better value than another than emotion or evaluating a single card. These things are expensive, and a more formal analysis would be of great benefit to a lot of users. In the forum, if people add their data, you could over time hone in on the card’s abilities with a good deal of confidence interval. Then, buy on the facts.

Once you get the data, you can decide on the cost per FPS or any other variable that is important to you. The main thing is to set the variables that you work with correctly from the beginning. The same thing could be done with any two VPU's (6800GT verses Ultra).


The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 2, 2005 5:56:57 PM

right, so in the term of "bang for the buck" its the x800xl hands down. but you really can't factor in the OC ability in too much, because the difference on the cooling. sure, if i have a tripple cascade on my GPU, then i can say get the x800pro and OC the crap out of it. but most ppl don't have a tripple cascade to work with. so the overclock you get is really a variable of many things including the card you get, your system, and your cooling. so at stock speeds, x800xl is the most efficient in terms of the fps/cost ratio.

<font color=red>gforce mx100/200 @ 230/440 =]</font color=red>
August 2, 2005 6:13:33 PM

Scottchen,

First off, no one is “lying”. You still seem stuck on the premise that if you didn’t understand a point of contention, that it is a lie. Your statement is “true” that a XL will meet a head in the sand XT card’s speed. But, I pointed out that it is untrue to the nature of an over-clocker because an XT that WILL BE over-clocked!

If I threw a XT in you lap, what would you do with it? Why over-clock it to “XT” speeds, right? Well, well, what about that? If you are an over-clocker, you’ll never leave well enough alone (you don’t) and will ALWAYS compare parts based on absolute speeds for your desired performance (your high resolution comes to mind) levels, not cost. That’s the nature of this group. A plain Jane individual will not over-clock either part, and as such, has an easy time of differentiating the purchase. It is what it is.

Scottchen, your intellect is fine it’s your mouth and temper that get the best of you. You no doubt can, and have been, if you can stomach the deriding comments, an asset to the community. Where did you get the impression that I was against that? If your hostile attitude makes you that insecure about your intellectual contributions, try changing your manner, will you?

It wasn’t me that decided to proclaim all sorts of inane comparisons to anything that walks crawls or flies, and throw it in someone’s direction. Not to mention the fact that you keep coming back time after time like a little kid that doesn’t get what he wants when he’s told, no! with each response reported to be your last. And, your responses are filled with pure emotion and utterly pointless topics. Who cares if I walk, crawl, or fly? Who cares if I’m a Republican, Democrat, or Independent? Who cares if you seem unable to settle a debate in a grown-up fashion? These are your problems, not mine or anyone else’s. Get over it and stop wasting your time with immature adolescent behavior patterns. I have surely pointed out enough of them to you already. You are making a fool of yourself with this liar, liar, and pants on fire stuff. It has been made plainly clear what my position is.

You throw out threats of some sort to drive me away, yet it is you that keeps coming back. Again, kids will do that. I’ll make a deal Scottchen, you grow up to fit the britches that you brain supports in an adult fashion, and I’ll keep working on my English. You may want to walk across the hall and take a sociology course while I’m on the other side taking English.

You see, I’m comfortable with what I know, and what I don’t. I strive to place an objective measure on a topic for everyone’s benefit, and no less so than your inputs try to be objective. I do believe that the topic at hand has been plainly laid out for all to see…that want to look, anyway.

Do I have an issue with you? No,
Do I have an issue with you inconsiderate language and petty put-downs? Yes.

I have an issue with a web site that is so vulgar that it is censored on my home PC.
I have an issue with someone who threatens people who don’t tow the line in their bully pulpit.
I have an issue with unobjective or totally unrelated lines of discussion that wastes my time.
I have issue with raising people that should be grown-up.
I have issue with a PC being a manly device that promotes this silly testosterone driven chitter-chatter.
I have issue with people who try to be "Tom" want-a-be's and hijack a community.
I have issue with someone who "adopts" the mood of the community on his behalf.

By now you’ve driven yourself into a corner with your behavior. With Bonnie and Clyde, the only way out was suicide. But nope, that isn’t necessary here I don’t think anybody has a problem with the Scottchen that thinks logically, fairly, aggressively, and considerately, while he hones his points.

But, I will not allow you to treat me in a condescending manner. Maybe you’re accustom to deriding your clientele, but I for one won’t allow it. I will continue to point out your social weaknesses as long as you throw them out. And no, it is you that needs to stop responding to these emails and stay away if you can’t take my responses. If you think this behavior has been a winning streak for you, reread it sometime.

The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 2, 2005 6:18:52 PM

Is it wu"S"Y or Wu"Z"y? I'm sorry if I used the wrong name. I've seen it both ways. Please set me straight.

OK, I'm not so sure that cooling and voltage are tightly related for dielectric stresses created with higher voltages.

Does anybody out there know the volts per mil rating of the VPU dielectrics that are used in the X800XL? 1.5 volts seems reasonable until you consider the 110nm process. Man, that's small!



The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 2, 2005 6:22:58 PM

*sigh* i answered you question, many other ppl have too, lets just forget about this whole petty thing? c'mon dude, be a man

<font color=red>gforce mx100/200 @ 230/440 =]</font color=red>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b K Overclocking
August 2, 2005 6:23:02 PM

I have a problem with the word dielectric
I have a problem with "member"

I dont have a problem with anythign else...

Asus P4P800DX, P4C 2.6ghz@3.25ghz, 2X512 OCZ PC4000 3-4-4-8, MSI 6800Ultra stock, 2X30gig Raid0
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b K Overclocking
August 2, 2005 6:23:32 PM

amen

Asus P4P800DX, P4C 2.6ghz@3.25ghz, 2X512 OCZ PC4000 3-4-4-8, MSI 6800Ultra stock, 2X30gig Raid0
August 2, 2005 6:37:11 PM

I had an 6800GT that did better in 3dMark03 (10,600 verses 9,600 for the XL) but it seemed to died before I could really work with it. It was $275.00 from NewEgg, the XL was $319.00.

The 6800GT is getting to be a bargain of late. I have no idea if the 6800GT was fine, and my system just didn't like it (most likely) or was a bad card. I errored on the side that if it was my system, I'd go through this twice so I opted for the 800XL just to mitigate the "bad card" and "bad system" issues. The 800XL seems to run well in my system.

But, the method below will indeed allow the overlap of cards to be quantified across several cards so readers eventually won't have to guess. These things are creatures of design limitations that are normal distribution defined if we stick with VPU clock rates. It may go bi-modal with VPU and memory, though.

The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b K Overclocking
August 2, 2005 6:46:42 PM

Quote:
These things are creatures of design limitations that are normal distribution defined if we stick with VPU clock rates. It may go bi-modal with VPU and memory, though.

Whats is it suppose to mean? Either im tired, or this phrase was too sustained for me...

That or it didnt mean anything...
[shrug]

Asus P4P800DX, P4C 2.6ghz@3.25ghz, 2X512 OCZ PC4000 3-4-4-8, MSI 6800Ultra stock, 2X30gig Raid0
August 2, 2005 6:49:04 PM

I didn’t “remember” anything to forget it. You guys have to clean up your act. Good-natured kidding is fine, inconsiderate behavior is not. The minute you act like some mere fashion of an adult, you’ll find life is easier. No one in this group needs to be a punching bag to satisfy your needs and to whatever end they may lead I don’t know. It sure isn’t the technical lesson, that’s for sure.

I think you need to address different parties. My behaviour is fine in any company.

The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b K Overclocking
August 2, 2005 6:51:15 PM

are you a philosophy teacher?

Asus P4P800DX, P4C 2.6ghz@3.25ghz, 2X512 OCZ PC4000 3-4-4-8, MSI 6800Ultra stock, 2X30gig Raid0
August 2, 2005 6:57:12 PM

This is a boys club of such. Hard as it is to believe, perceived attacks are usually not personal, and regardless should not be taken personally since there has been no personal contact usually. Reading typed words nuances and feelings can arise, even where intent is non-existent, so take posts with thicker than normal skin and realize that tech support information and contacts made may or may not be worth the price of admission.
So yeah, play nice boys. ;) 

<pre><font color=red>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre><p></font color=red>
August 2, 2005 6:57:57 PM

Bi-modal means that two independent variables can be affecting one another if resources are shared. For instance, if you decide to get a tan, the sun and the suntan lotion would have a bi-modal effect. One variable is the sun; the other is the accelerant (suntan lotion). If we want to decide what the sun does, it is easier to cancel out the suntan lotion (don't use any). If we don't cancel out the lotion, we have a bi-modal distribution that affects your tan because it shares a common resource that we're measuring, the darkness of your skin.

In our case, we can't get rid of the memory voltage, so we keep it constant to cancel it out. This makes the distribution of clock rates sinusoidal over many samples of the same type card under the same conditions.


The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 2, 2005 7:01:01 PM

I think of sun-tan lotion as protecting you from the harmful rays of the sun, and not as an accelerant. ;)  Really, I do not understand why someone would want to cook browner and faster! LOL!

<pre><font color=red>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre><p></font color=red>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b K Overclocking
August 2, 2005 7:03:00 PM

Thx, I knew what bi-modal meant thought, ive done my share of physic classes!

Its the overall prase that didnt make sens to me...
That whole thread dint make much sens to me so I guess ill just lay back and watch!

Asus P4P800DX, P4C 2.6ghz@3.25ghz, 2X512 OCZ PC4000 3-4-4-8, MSI 6800Ultra stock, 2X30gig Raid0
August 2, 2005 7:07:55 PM

Tosses Labbby a cold beer, mind if I sit a spell?

<pre><font color=red>°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°`°¤o \\// o¤°`°¤o,¸¸¸,o¤°
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre><p></font color=red>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b K Overclocking
August 2, 2005 7:10:28 PM

ohhh thank god!
*pull's a chair*
*drinks the cold stuff!*

Asus P4P800DX, P4C 2.6ghz@3.25ghz, 2X512 OCZ PC4000 3-4-4-8, MSI 6800Ultra stock, 2X30gig Raid0
August 5, 2005 11:46:53 AM

Anything that deals with attitude or general causes or principals is considered philosophy so yes, if you comment on thses items you are philosphizing.

But a teacher? No. Common decency and respect for others goes past philosophizing.

The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 5, 2005 11:54:18 AM

This is a public forum, and should be conducted as such. When I have to web sense this site from my home PC for language and explicitly bad behavior, we have a problem. Would you act in the manner seen in these posts on front of your parents, teachers, clergy, or boss (well, maybe you got me here)?

I know what good-natured kidding is, and I know bad behavior. You're comments SHOULD be 100% correct in a good forum. This forum needs a little personnel supervision to get back there.

Most memebers are just fine. But, we have a few that think everybody is behind them 100%, and they are...to keep their sharp tongues out of their behinds!


The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 5, 2005 11:58:00 AM

I agree with you, but I went with the marketing perception that if you use our lotion you will tan deeper, and faster and stay brown longer mantra.



The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 5, 2005 12:02:27 PM

Stay with us labbbby. We need a good physicist.

The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
August 5, 2005 12:28:29 PM

I don't understand your posts and geeky words lol
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
a b K Overclocking
August 5, 2005 2:36:02 PM

Lol! your websense policy must be harsh! never got blocked =P. One of the beauty of this forum is the mod free ambiance!

Im still with you, thx for the physicist, you talking about wingding?

As for your post, I just found it somewhat funny. You sounded like a Electrical engeneer that doesnt tottaly understand graphics cards but making comments based on his highly technical knowledge...



Asus P4P800DX, P4C 2.6ghz@3.25ghz, 2X512 OCZ PC4000 3-4-4-8, MSI 6800Ultra stock, 2X30gig Raid0
August 5, 2005 5:36:55 PM

actually, philosophy is defined as the love of wisdom fyi... lol

<font color=red>gforce mx100/200 @ 230/440 =]</font color=red>
August 5, 2005 7:48:05 PM

I went with good old Webster's definition.

PHILOSOPHY - 1., the science of dealing with the general causes and principals of things. 2. personal attitude.



The trick to procrastination is to just not do it very long.
!