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RADEON 2 SPECS !!!!!

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January 8, 2001 2:18:05 PM

Spec ------------ATI RADEON
Technology ------.18µ
Core-speed ------183mhz
Pixel pipelines - 3
Pixel fillrate -- 550 mpixel

Spec ------------geforce2 ultra
Technology ------.18µ
Core-speed ------250mhz
Pixel pipelines - 4
Pixel fillrate -- 1000 mpixel

Spec ------------Nvidia NV20
Technology ------.15µ
Core-speed ------300mhz
Pixel pipelines - 4
Pixel fillrate -- 1200 mpixel


The Radeon2 is being built under codename R200
Spec ------------ATI RADEON 2
Technology ------.15µ
Core-speed ------300mhz
Pixel pipelines - 4
Pixel fillrate -- 1200 mpixel
coming in Summer 2001


if you read dutch try reading this site
http://athena.tweakers.net/nieuws.dsp?ID=15208

ATI RADEON 32MB DDR RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More about : radeon specs

January 8, 2001 3:24:46 PM

Cool.... looks like there's gonna be some tough compitition between Radeon2 and NV20.... What kind of memory (obviously DDR, but what speed) is the Radeon2 gonna use?
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 8, 2001 4:11:51 PM

ati's drivers will hold their cards back :( 
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Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 8, 2001 6:21:37 PM

Isn't it interesting that this post only got a few replies, while the one right above it about the NV20 already has 4 pages of comments.
January 8, 2001 6:23:06 PM

give it time, its only been there 4 hours... besides I'll take that with a grain of salt (as I will the NV20) until I see the real thing:) 
January 8, 2001 6:58:12 PM

Hey, if the Radeon2 is just as good and is less money, I'll get it instead of the NV20. It's a Canadian company too!
January 8, 2001 7:16:05 PM

I'll wait and see what it's like...maybe there will be driver issues at first, but ATI seem to be trying harder in that respect.
I know we all like our computers to be seriously fast, but I'm beginning to wonder with the speeds we are getting to at present are worth investing in....after all, if you've got say 80fps and you could get 120fps with a new card are you really going to notice it in practical terms...just a thought.


Ray.
January 8, 2001 7:18:35 PM

There's supposed to be at least a difference of 2x (Faster) than the Ultra cards. In some graphic intense areas, 7x as fast is expected.
January 8, 2001 9:25:03 PM

Radeon 2 will suck just like the Radeon 1. ATI has shown it is incapable of proper driver support and proper tech support.

I will never buy another ATI product. ATI sucks. The new ATI Radeons suck. The drivers don’t work for scat on win2k. Driver updates are non-existent as in the past. They have no toll free tech support. Their new Radeon cards ship with win2k drivers, which don’t work properly. If you want to feel scat on buy Radeon.

Asus CUSL2
P3 700
320MB SDRAM PC133 Cas2
SBLive Platinum 5.1
2 Maxtor 45GB AT100 7200
Maxtor AT100 Controller
Toshiba 8x DVD
Plextor Plexwriter 8/20
Linksys 10/100 Ethernet Card
Previously Owned V3 3500TV which didn’t support Win2k but has supported it for about half a year now and EVERYTHING worked even with the beta drivers, unlike ATI which released their newer card with Win2k drivers which don’t work with 70% of the card properly.

I wish I still had a copy of the long and detailed report I typed out to them concerning problems with their card. In the phone calls to them (which the customer pays for) they could not help me but were interested in my errors as some had already been reported and some were new to them and some helped them figure out more in detail why certain errors would occur. They encouraged a detailed write up. I did them a favor at my own expense and time and then they replied with we will only fix problems reported to a significant degree… Only if customers complain enough will they bother fixing problem. What a joke. In other words they know of problems but are not fixing them until their customers really start complaining in droves.

Under win2k these are the problems I encountered. All games using Glide of which I probably own 40 have graphics that look like [-peep-]. Direct3d, which works on some games, looks like crap on some and good on others. TV looks good but the downloading of the TV schedule fails half the time. TV out controls for turning TV on and off do not work at all. When you plug in your Svideo your automatically outputting your pc signal to your TV and cannot switch it on and off like you’re supposed to be able to on your pc. Furthermore once you view your pc on you TV your graphics no longer fit your pc monitor screen and you end up using your mouse to scroll to areas on the peripheral of your pc monitor you can see unless you scroll there. This problem is terrible since you cannot use the controls that come with the card to switch back to using the monitor as the screen properly. What happens is you get stuck with this scrolling problem and it doesn’t go away even when you reboot. The only way I found to fix it is to completely uninstall the drivers and then reinstall them and set the monitor resolution low to like 640x480 and then reset it back up to whatever you want. This is very time consuming process. ATI never even replied to this particular problem. DVD playback, which is hardware driven stutters! Mpeg4 playback fails! This card is a nightmare folks! I have forgotten half of what I wrote them detailing errors received and better descriptions of the problems but this should be enough to explain what a piece of crap this card is. After spending about four hours total on the phone with them and getting them all the information they wanted I get no reassurances. All I get is hopefully we will have an answer to some of these problems in the future. Blah Blah Blah. Month goes by and nothing. Many people have posted on Tomshardware as to the untrustworthy nature of ATI concerning drivers and their inability to act quickly to fix driver problems. How can you purchase a card that ships with Win2k drivers today and have it not work in everything properly accept TV in? When it takes half a year to fix all the problems on such a product why bother buying it since by that time the card will be selling for less than half what you paid for it and will be half as fast as newer cards on the market. ATI is going the way of the Dodos if they continue with this irresponsible behavior.



An email I sent ATI in response to a customer support reply that was more useless than the long distance phone support.

Thank you very much for you're very kind reply... I find the information I have provided your company with at my expense much more valuable to you than the information you have provided me. Reiteration of solutions I have already tried does neither of us any good. I have returned both cards to the original retailer. In the future please refrain from releasing unfinished products. I and other customers regard such actions as unlawful. I can no longer recommend your products due to poor driver performance under win2k (I have not tested any other OS nor do I wish to do so as your product ships with supposed perfect win2k drivers), which I have tested extensively. The long list of problems with your drivers is tiresome. DVD play, which I previously thought, worked perfectly stutters randomly. In the future please don't rely on your customer base to solve your problems for you because in the end you lose valuable promotional commentary along with a good customer. No need to reply I just thought you should know how thoroughly disgusted I am with your product and your company.


Interesting Article in Worth magazine Jan 2001, by Eric Alterman.
(How I feel)
Quote:

This “screw the consumer’s time, it’s not costing us anything” attitude appears to exist across the entire spectrum of new technology industries. I bought a scanner from UMAX that has never worked. There’s nobody at the other end to help, at least nobody I had the patience to find. The ugly thing has been sitting on my desk, unused, for two years. And have you tried to hook up a DSL line recently” I have, and I had to give up on that, too. It turned out Verizon, the new beast created out of Bell Atlantic’s merger with just about everybody else, had not yet come up with a modem compatible with Windows Me, though apparently it neglected to mention that to the person on the phone who was all to willing to take an order and let the caller waste hours trying to make the damn thing work. Chris Taylor of Time recently wrote of spending almost six months stuck inside a similar nightmare courtesy of Pacific Bell, which given its location, really ought to know better. The truth was that the company did not even offer the service, called D-Slam, that it had promised him, as it had run out of the hardware, but it continued to advertise it because, a rep admitted, their “competitors haven’t stopped advertising yet: The worst of it is that the entire time you are wasting away on hold, watching your fingernails grow, the company brags about its new and improved service menu.
This whole sector of the economy feels like the Soviet Union: Long waiting lines, no service, contempt for the consumer, products that don’t work when shipped, but somebody with the power to create a little trouble for the big boys arrives, and everybody starts jumping. Of course, the obvious differences are that innovation barely existed in Soviet industries, while the computer manufacturers are just about the most innovative people of all time. But the net result turns out to be more suffering for the rest of us.
a b U Graphics card
January 8, 2001 11:39:55 PM

Gee, Hobbit, I hadn't realized that your problem was really that bad-from reading your other psot on that issue I thought you were just angry, but I just realized that you own the most stable and compatable type of sytem in the industry! Most people who complain about driver issues also mention one of two boards A7V or KT7, and I don't pay much attention because I know it's usually a VIA issue. But the fact that you are on a CUSL2 proves that it is, indeed, an ATI issue! Almost eveything is compatable with a CUSL2! Of coarse, leave it to almost any company to put 98SE and ME first when it comes to multimedia cards, and then, if there is enough demand, come back to Professional OS's.
January 9, 2001 3:14:29 AM

Ahhh!!! Don't encourage him. No more cut and paste. Though he did fix the ram thing, I'll give him that. ATI drivers suck we all know this, but enough of the 2 page rants.

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
a b U Graphics card
January 9, 2001 4:18:03 AM

Sowwy, I'll try not to next time. I think he is part of a 12 step program with former ATI support users, like I am for former VIA users. But at least I'm on the 9th step (A bit of a hurdle, because when I warn people about VIA abuse I often offend them, then have to go back to step 8)!
a b U Graphics card
January 9, 2001 4:36:39 AM

BTW the VIA owners 12 step recovery program:

1. We admitted we were powerless over our computer, that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than VIA could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our computers over to the care of non-VIA chipsets.

4. Made a searching and fearless inventory of our technical knowlege.

5. Admitted to Toms Hardware Guide Forum, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrong decision when purchasing VIA.

6. Were entirely ready to remove all these defects from our computer.

7. Humbly asked another manufacturer to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had offended, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through experience and meditation to improve our conscious contact with technology as we understood it, praying only for knowledge of it's progress for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a intelectual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to VIA owners, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I GO THROUGHOUT THE INTERNET WARNING ALL OF THE DAMAGING AFFECTS EVEN CASUAL VIA OWNERSHIP MAY BRING!

(12 step coutesy of AA, with some modification, would not want to be accused of plagerism!)
January 9, 2001 7:10:02 AM

Hey all, I was just readin your posts and agree with some points but disagree with others. As far as the radeon is concerned hobbit, I say "Ditto!!!" Ati has one of the worst records for support in the industry. As a practicing tech I've had nothin but woes with there products since the rageIIc( they sure named it right). Now crash, about VIA. You were kind enough to help me with my dads vid probs and Ithank you, but he's runnin a classic athlon on a Abit ka7 and those boards had problems. I'm runnin an a7v with a tbird 700@945 rock stable, with 98se and SBlive no less. I may have gotten lucky, but I swear by this board because it never locks, never. The dsl woes are alive and well in texas though. I ordered a line before thanksgiving and am still waiting for installation. It started out that I was gonna get a 784k sdsl in 6 to 8 weeks. Now they tell me I can only get a 144k idsl line in a couple of weeks. I'm only 3200' from the switch station for petes sake. I'm tempted to pull the plug on the whole thing and get cable, but the thought that sticks sticks in my craw. Sorry about the rant, I'm done now. Ya'll have a prosperous new year and good luck.
January 9, 2001 11:45:28 AM

as far as the CUSL2 and ATI, there are guys who posted counterpoints to hobbit's post on other thread (gee, you mean that's not an original rant?:) , who have CUSL2, Win2K & ATI AIW working no problemo... for ANY given combination, and whether the card in question is nVidia or ATI, you can find people who are having problems and people who have it working perfectly... some of it is skills, some of it is smarts, but most of it seems to be pure damn luck :-)

I agree that ATI is seemingly hard to reach though... but not impossible...again it comes down to luck:) 

sorry about your DSL woes:( 
January 9, 2001 2:21:24 PM

Hobbit stop copying and paste the same comment. I sick of you.

ABIT BP6 + ATI RADEON 32MB DDR RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 9, 2001 3:01:48 PM

"All games using Glide of which I probably own 40 have graphics that look like [-peep-]"

The ATI Radeon supports Glide????


"In the phone calls (which the customer pays for)"

Well go call up Asus or Creative with an nVidia chipset related problem. You'll be paying the charges in their case too (I didn't bother checking other nVidia card suppliers, but I'm sure these two aren't alone). I find it tends to be unusual when a company does offer a toll-free tech support number in the hardware industry (see it much more frequently in software though). The only graphics card maker that I know of that had a toll free number was 3dfx.



As for your allegedly huge delays in response time for your e-mails, who knows? Mine are generally a week at the most. I guess you are just an unlucky guy that the gods are against.
January 9, 2001 5:54:57 PM

I mean OpenGL and have corrected my mistake in my version of the post I left you. I cannot fix the post I left you since that selection is now missing for a few days. This site is slow dont you think compared to the delphi site Tom used to have. Most of my hardware I can call for toll free technical support. I can call toll free for my maxtor hard drives, linksys ethernet card and router, toshiba dvd drive, viewsonic monitors, Plextor Burner, Epson Printer, Microsoft mouse and keyboard, intel camera, HP DC280 Camera etc. Most major companies do have toll free tech support. It is true that creative labs and asus dont have toll free phone numbers but I have very rare problems with their hardware, and when I did have a problem with an asus motherboard I wrote them an email and within two days I got a phone call on how to fix the problem which I had already figured out on my own. I dont like asus in part either because I hate that call back crap. ATI has no excuse.
No, I am not just an unlucky guy the gods are against. Read around ATI's fraud is comming out. People with multiple problems with their card in multiple OS's are popping up everyday. ATI is cutting off the hand that feeds it and will be expelled from the body as emaciated unwanted and indigestible waste another bankrupt miasma if they continue their fraud. IMHO ;) 
January 9, 2001 7:01:39 PM

>> IMHO ;) 

what does 'H' stand for? it CAN'T be humble... :) 
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 9, 2001 7:33:05 PM

I was referring to your alleged one month delay in the response to your e-mail.

When I had my Rage Fury, I gave them an e-mail describing a wierd texture artifacting problem I had (I was getting holes in textures, and could actually see through them). I had stated the problem went away when I borrowed an Xpert 2000.

The reply came about a week later at the most, saying that I probably had a defective product, and he gave me a list of all the information I needed for the RMA. I put down a security deposit to get it ASAP, and 3 days later, I had my replacement card. Total time without my video card = 10 days.


THAT was what I meant by unlucky, because I e-mail them whenever I notice a graphical error or anything else unusual, and I have never had to wait more than one week for my reply. Christ, I even asked them (in addition to Intel, AMD, nVidia, 3dfx, and Matrox) about the likelyhood of a 2560-bit chip (yes, 2560) in the Sony Playstation 2, because that's what some forum jerk was insisting it was (turned out to be bandwidth pipeline for an ondie chip, can't remember exactly). I had gotten two replies, a simple "No it's not possible" from nVidia, and a question from an ATI tech support person that asked me to make sure, and to tell him where I saw the information. I showed him, and he explained it to me. Once again, the e-mail was under a week. nVidia's was in 3 days, ATI's in 4. Big whup!

In addition, ATI Tech support people actually go out on to message boards to help with some known issues. They've NEVER done that before. One of them is a regular poster at Rage3D.com, and helps people out if possible, and stated that he (among others) goes to the message boards to find out problems. The public will put stress on the card that the tech support guys wouldn't have thought of, and the people I've spoken to have helped.


And as to your 'discussion' with a tech support guy, that said they will only fix it if enough people complain about it, you are likely misconstruing what he said, or he was a lackey that wasn't truly in the know, and didn't say what he meant in the right way.

I'm sure you've heard of the decision making methodology of minimum work-maximum payoff, maximum work-maximum payoff, minimum work-minimum payoff, maximum work-minimum payoff. It's a very simple, yet very practical methodology. ATI isn't going to wait for a lot of people to complain, if they know a fault is going to affect a large amount of people (which is how you interpreted it, as in they won't do anything until people complain). First off, the minimum work-maximum payoff stuff gets done first. It's quick to do, and helps the most number of people. Depending on the company the maximum work/payoff and minimum work/payoff will be second or tied. They'll likely split their resources, with most working on the maximum work/payoff, and a few working on the minimum work/payoff. In any case, these problems are generally still in the best interest of the company to fix, particularly the maximum payoff situation because it will affect the most people. Lastly is the maximum work-minimum payoff scenario. These problems are last on the priority list, and often are not addressed (not just from ATI, but from any company). In this case, either because the problem only affects a select few, or the majority of the people that have the problem either don't care, or it doesn't affect them at all.

I would say that THAT was what the tech meant when he said what he did. This would put the maximum payoff ones first, and the minimum payoff ones second. ATI will know which ones are the maximum payoff, based on what their consumers bring up (i.e. the "we'll fix them if there is enough concern" bit).


If he was a new guy that was either put on the spot, or simply just made a gaffe while speaking to you, I can assure you that ATI will not ignore large problems if no one complains. If installing an ATI card nuked some guys computer (and them somehow spread to the telephone lines) so that the guy couldn't contact ATI, do you think ATI would just ignore it?


Also, keep in mind that ATI is currently in the process of restructuring their driver department, and are planning on making a unified driver set. Do you think the driver developers at ATI enjoy hearing all the bad [-peep-] people say about them? The Radeon is a huge step up from their previous cards, and while yes the drivers are lackluster in the Windows 2000 department (although your case is the worst I've ever seen), which area do you think would be in ATI's best interest to FOCUS their driver problems right now, Windows 98/ME or Windows 2000? Things ARE still shaky, but at least they're on the right track.

But from my experiences, and from what I've seen on forums and have sold through work, the level of problems that you are having are not the norm. Most problems I've seen people have are AGP issues with Via chipsets, which I would fault Via for more than ATI, but in your case, you definitely do seem to be an unlucky guy that the gods are against.

None of the reviewers have encountered the mass number of problems that you have. Yes, in Win2K, reviewers do sometimes get hitches, but the main thing commented regarding Win2K is that the drivers still aren't performing up to snuff (which I think we all can agree on). Yes they definitely need to do work on them, but it is of a lower priority than making sure Win98/ME problems are solved. Does that mean there currently isn't anyone working on Win2K drivers? Unlikely.


And yes, this site is a lot slower than the old Delphi forum.



Anyways, the tone of my message is rather heated, but I mean no offense. To say the Rage128 Pro/Rage 128 is a crap chip, you'll get no argument from me (although I'm one of the few that didn't think it was THAT bad). Say the Rage Pro is a crap chip, and I'll bring up reasons you missed as to why it's so bad. But to say that the Radeon is 'crap,' then I would have to disagree, especially considering how ATI's cards have pretty much never even come close to 3dfx's or nVidia's performance, and now they actually usurped the high resolution speed department for a second.

I only see this as progress...

IMHO :) 
January 9, 2001 7:34:35 PM

If you must substitute it with Hostile and websters definition number 2: "Stongly opposed to somebody or something," due to an injustice.
January 9, 2001 7:37:25 PM

The only injustice is having to scroll down two pages to get through your huge cut and paste posts.

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
January 9, 2001 7:39:28 PM

I only had to scroll down 1 page :p 
January 9, 2001 7:41:03 PM

lucky bastard ; )

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
January 9, 2001 8:12:40 PM

Your making my point. It is very simple. Nothing complicated about the concept. I will make this very easy to understand. Dont false advertise and expect no backlash. It is that simple. I dont want to hear excuses. I want the product I buy to work as advertised out of the box. I dont want to have to spend weeks figuring out the what, why etc. it doesnt work. If the answer is not a simple, oh you forgot to do this, or we left this out in the instructions, do this and it will all work, then youre not getting what you paid for. I trusted ATI and it cost me a lot of time and over 250 dollars in lost cash. I trusted ATI would fix it and I wanted it fixed so paid for the long distance. I know I am not alone in my disgust. They didnt come through. I paid for the return shipping on two cards too. Want to know what I want? Probably not but I will tell you what I want. It is what every good customer wants in these situations. I want a sincere apology, personal attention, and a refund for my lost cash and wasted time. I am going to continue getting the word out until I feel I have cost them enough business to teach them a lesson. I have gotten extremely sick of hardware that doesnt perform. Any hardware I purchase that doesnt do what it says it can do and is a nightmare is going to get trashed.
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 10, 2001 5:42:52 PM

You have quite the strict requirements there hobbit. If something doesn't work out of the box, then it's false advertising?? It's possible for pretty much every piece of hardware to not work out of the box (especially graphics cards). You must be relatively new to the computer scene if everything aside from your Radeon AIW.

What about the people that did get the Radeon AIW to work on Win2K out of the box? Unless you can prove that the Radeon AIW will not work with Win2K at all (with the programs you specified), then it is not false advertising.


And what point of yours did I prove? I showed that your intepretation of what the ATI representative said was incorrect. And I also showed that you need a better grasp of prioritization, especially in the business world. I'm not saying you don't deserve an apology, but you slander (and yes it is slander now, because you use your example to completely disregard the ENTIRE Radeon line...you did say it sucks) the Radeon for little reason. You then base your experience that the Radeon 2 will also be garbage. Is there proof, that everyone with your setup, will have the exact same problems that you are having?

Show me one place where ATI has stated that, due to lack of complaints, they refuse to fix any problems the AIW might have with Win2K?

As for $250 in lost cash. How so?


And just for curiosity sake, did you try running it on Win98 SE?
January 10, 2001 5:45:19 PM

No he didn't try on 98se.

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
January 10, 2001 5:57:01 PM

Great, intelligent posts alanschu:) 
they are a nice refresher :smile:

>> Is there proof, that everyone with your setup,
>> will have the exact same problems that you are having?

To point out (for the n-th time:) , other posters here on THG and people around have had no problems with Hobit's CUSL2/Win2k/ATI AIW setup... so while it's not VIA's fault only, it's not ATI AIW fault only either that his didn't work...

I still think he was just plain unlucky... and we were all unlucky that such a bitchy person got unlucky... we'll never hear the end of it:) 

I just don't understand his mind-process at all... business-priorization nothing, life-priorization is what he should think about... does he really have nothing better to do than to flame for two months on the same topic? :) 

(and to question do I have nothing better to do than rebuke him... well, what can I say, I have no life apparently:) 
January 10, 2001 7:02:11 PM

I have decided your not worth bothering with since your an ATI employee and a matrix clone. Please go boink yourself.
January 10, 2001 7:32:55 PM

Wow. I wish you put that much fire into writting your own posts Hobbit...

- "I forgot my shirt, but I had body glitter."
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 10, 2001 7:40:49 PM

"I have decided your (btw, it's you're) not worth bothering with since your an ATI employee and a matrix clone."

Well, if that isn't the best way to approach life. Some guy approaches you with a view that doesn't match yours, and questions the integrity of your claims, so automatically he becomes an employee for the aforementioned company? (and a matrix clone?)

Unfortunately for you, I am immune to your disdain. And while you may continue to ignore my posts to you, with every rebuttal I make towards your posts, your refusal to acknowledge them will only sever your credibility, which will ultimately ruin your 'cause' against ATI. And no, I'm not an ATI employee. I doubt they would take too many 19 year olds that are taking a year off of Computing Science (which is programming, not engineering) to make some money. Although if they were to offer me a job, I'd probably take it (or anyone else for that matter). Almost anything in the IT industry would be more interesting than the insanely boring job of teaching computer literacy.

And your failure to reply to my post with some answers to some questions I had, makes me think perhaps the questions had no answers?? I'm still quite skeptical about the one month layover between your e-mail and their reply. Because I'm quite sure whenever you did it, there was a time in there when I had a week long wait. Seeing as my Dad runs his own computer company, I frequently work for him, and while I'm not working for him, I still help him out on situations. Most of the help I provide is getting answers to problems he doesn't have time to look up on, because there is something he knows he can fix/do right away (because that'll get him money quicker than looking for answers). So not only do I e-mail ATI frequently, but also nVidia, Intel, AMD, Asus, Abit (to a lesser extent), Creative, and Via. Generally, the layover from all of these companies is around a week (sometimes two). Rarely do I have to wait for a month to get a reply.


In any case, I look forward to your lack of reply.
January 10, 2001 7:46:59 PM

Now thats the kind of fire I like. Nice post alanschu.

- "I forgot my shirt, but I had body glitter."
January 10, 2001 7:56:58 PM

toutche'

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 10, 2001 7:59:22 PM

Radeon 2 will rule just like Radeon 1. Lets not forget that Radeon 1 was faster and better than GeForce until Geforce came out with their detonator drivers. Radeon 1 still has better image and graphics quality than the GeForce.
January 10, 2001 8:03:05 PM

Faster than geforce one maybe but not the geforce 2 ever, even pre det.3 drivers. And since radeon 2 is competing with nv20, not geforce 2 then we'll have to see.

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 10, 2001 8:26:33 PM

Actually, it was not uncommon to see the current Radeon best the GeForce2 GTS in high resolution 32-bit gaming when it first came out.
January 10, 2001 8:29:35 PM

Hmmm.. Don't remember that, but until I get a chance to look back through Tom's tests I'll concede on this one.

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
January 11, 2001 2:22:10 AM

hobit strikes again, nanannanananannana HOBIT!

TBird 800 - Asus A7V 1005a
256 PC133 - Maxtor 45GB ATA100
Radeon 32DDR - SB Live MP3+
January 11, 2001 6:30:11 AM

Thanks for the link. Yup, the radeon had it's high res, 32 bit niche as you said. However it was not "faster and better" as the other guy said in his blanket statement. So with det 3 drivers it's all geforce now right? Just making sure I have my facts straight.

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 11, 2001 2:41:06 PM

I agree that the Radeon is a real good card, but for me also it s always a nightmare to install it.

My combo is an AMD 650, KA7-100, The Vivo, 196megs, SB live, 3com net card.

I have the latest bios (raid enable), 4in1 and tried all the damn drivers from ATI.

Result:windows protection errors, vxd errors, crashes and hangup, no ways i cant make the mutimedia center(DVD) works correctly at the same time when i finnaly get the drivers to run.

I m thinking about selling everything parts by parts and to get a new mobo, i m starting to loose faith in AMD and ATI.
I know that with intel you can get the same kind of problems but is it my system??? wish i knew

worst thing, i put an asus gts 32megs and my comp wouldn t even boot, as if i had no card connected (and the card works, tested it in another system)

I m so mixed up when i finally make it run that i don t even remember what combination i did to install it.

(Exemple:4in1 drivers, install the cd drivers with multimedia center (ver:46), reboot, protection error, reboot, cant get high resolution, let install glsetup (Ver:54 (not even on the ati site), works), at this point the dvd player do weird things or doesn t work, remove the multimedia center, after a couple of days starting to get vxd errors when i reboot(my system works 24hours a day), reinstalling drivers(ver:56), windows protection error, reboot, remove drivers, reinstall, install latest agp drivers from via, works, trying to install multimedia center(by the way without the default drivers (custom install (even if i m mixed up i know what i do))

So, i tried about any combination of drivers, bios setup and skills gain from my 5 years experience as a (not certified) technicien and my assembling and sellings of about 500 computers in those years.

If someone could tell me how to install it and making it works, he would be my hero, be in my heart, receive my gratitude and i would even pay him in return some way.

If i have a defective part, selling would be my best bet, but i would be surprise.

(..should i catch the bullet that JG38141 is dodging???)
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 11, 2001 7:37:19 PM

Well, seeing as you tried an Asus GTS card and it still didn't work, I doubt the problem is exlusively ATI's (or anyone elses for that matter). The problem probably lies in the motherboard. If your motherboard is having problems, then chances are EVERYTHING will be having problems.

I have no experience with the Abit motherboard you mentioned. My primary AMD motherboard is the Asus A7V, of which I have very little problems with (although my Dad's company did get a bad one today, so he had to return it :(  ).

In any case, you should find a friend that is willing to volunteer some time and the use of his computer, and test out as much of your hardware as possible (probably barring the CPU and motherboard), to make sure it works. If you do do this, use your own hard drive, so you won't risk buggering up anything on his hard driver (or use Norton's Ghost software to make an image of his, if available). If possible, try to test it on a working Athlon system, just to see if there is any faults in your hardware.
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 11, 2001 7:42:17 PM

Since the det3 drivers came out, the GeForce2 has reclaimed the speed lead in pretty much all categories as far as I know (Quake 3 in particular). In most cases, both pre and post det3 drivers, both cards perform very similarly at high resolutions.

I don't remember if there are any newer games that the Radeon beats the GeForce2 GTS. The GeForce2 Ultra, naturally puts everything in it's place, far behind :)  Of course you get what you pay for in the Ultra's case.
January 12, 2001 2:14:32 AM

ATI FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE

Epiphanic Lucidity

Read what I have to say and make your own decision.

I will never buy another ATI product. ATI consistently provides drivers that suck. The new ATI Radeons suck… the drivers don’t work for scat on win2k. Driver updates are non-existent as in the past. They have no toll free tech support, so when you get it and it doesn’t work right your in for a long wait before it does. Their new Radeon cards ship with win2k drivers, which don’t work properly. If you want to feel scat on buy Radeon.

NOTE: I bought two of the ATI AIW Radeon cards for two systems both identical accept in the amount of ram and a few different peripherals. Neither card worked on either system properly. Don’t believe me take a look around people, are starting to figure it out for themselves. Some people will say I should stop complaining and switch to a different operating system like win98SE. Those same people are enabling ATI to get away with this crap. No I never tested with win98SE or WinME because that was not my OS and I am not going to switch to a different OS for ATI, lol that is so funny especially when the ATI AIW Radeon ships with win2k full release drivers. Anyone who says you should switch OS’s to make the card work is just plain out to lunch.

Win2kPro
Asus CUSL2
P3 700 (Not OC) Not, necessary really. Can do 933 fine though.
320MB SDRAM PC133 Cas2
SBLive Platinum 5.1
2 Maxtor 45GB AT100 7200
Adaptec 2930 scsi controller
Maxtor AT100 Controller
Toshiba 8x DVD
Plextor Plexwriter 8/20
Linksys 10/100 Ethernet Card
Linksys 10/100 Hub
Linksys Router (Tried it and it = Crap)

Previously Owned two V3 3500TV’s which didn’t support Win2k initially but has supported it for about half a year now and EVERYTHING worked even with the beta drivers, unlike ATI which released their newer card with Win2k drivers which don’t work with 70% of the card properly.

I wish I still had a copy of the long and detailed report I typed out to them concerning problems with their card. In the phone calls to them (which the customer pays for) they could not help me but were interested in my errors as some had already been reported and some were new to them and some helped them figure out more in detail why certain errors would occur. They encouraged a detailed write up. I did them a favor at my own expense and time and then they replied with we will only fix problems reported to a significant degree… Only if customers complain enough will they bother fixing problem. What a joke. In other words they know of problems but are not fixing them until their customers really start complaining in droves.
Under win2k these are the problems I encountered. All games I tried using OpenGL which is “fully”supported by ATI “Full OpenGL® and Microsoft® DirectX® support.” of which I probably own 40 have graphics that look like [-peep-] and are too dark which cannot be fixed without second hand programs or special tweaking instructions/editing of CFG files etc... (3DFX had a Gamma slider allowing you to brighten or darken Direct 3d or OpenGL games independently besides the desktop quickly solving this problem. Direct3d, which works on some games, looks like crap on some (examples: Diablo 2, Quake one) and good on others… Compare Diablo 2 using OpenGL with a voodoo card versus Radeon Direct3d ((pixilated and snowy), (Radeon fails if you try OpenGL). TV looks good but the downloading of the TV schedule fails half the time. TV out onscreen ATI software controls for turning the TV on and off do not work at all. When you plug in your Svideo your automatically outputting your pc signal to your TV and cannot switch it on and off like you’re supposed to be able to on your pc, instead you have to reboot!, but there is more… Furthermore once you view your pc on you TV your graphics no longer fit your pc monitor screen and you end up using your mouse to scroll to areas on the peripheral of your pc monitor you cant see any longer unless you scroll there. This problem is terrible since you cannot use the controls that come with the card to switch back to using the monitor as the screen properly. What happens is that you get stuck with this scrolling problem and it doesn’t go away even when you reboot. The only way I found to fix it is to completely uninstall the drivers and then reinstall them and then set the monitor resolution low to like 640x480 and then reset it back up to whatever you want. You see upon rebooting and reinstalling the drivers the problem is still there but now if you change the resolution down to 640x480 and then back up to whatever you want it set things back to normal. This is very time consuming process. ATI never even replied to this particular problem. DVD playback, which is hardware driven stutters! This I couldn’t believe and was the last straw because I thought that at least worked when I first watched the beginning of the Matrix for about 30 seconds to see if it was working. Later I go to show a friend and it is stuttering as we watch it for a few minutes. Mpeg4 playback fails! ATI was aware of the Mpeg4 playback failures but has not fixed this problem yet! This card is a nightmare folks! I have forgotten much of what I wrote them detailing errors received and better descriptions of the problems but this should be enough to explain what a piece of crap ATI is foisting. Foisting (Webster): “To give somebody something inferior: to give somebody something inferior on the pretence that it is genuine, valuable, or desirable.” A good synonym for foisting would be FRAUD.
After spending about four hours total on the phone with them and getting them all the information they wanted I get no reassurances. All I get is hopefully we will have an answer to some of these problems in the future. Blah Blah Blah. Month goes by and nothing ß means no working driver updates that fix the milieu of problems. Many people have posted on Tomshardware as to the untrustworthy nature of ATI concerning drivers and their inability to act quickly to fix driver problems. I now know what they were talking about first hand. Don’t make the same mistake. How can you purchase a card that ships with Win2k drivers today and have it not work in everything properly accept TV in? When it takes half a year to fix all the problems on such a product why bother buying it since by that time the card will be selling for less than half what you paid for it and will be half as fast as newer cards on the market. ATI is going the way of the Dodos if they continue with this irresponsible behavior.

An email I sent ATI in response to a customer support reply that was more useless than the long distance phone support.

Thank you very much for you're very kind reply... I find the information I have provided your company with at my expense much more valuable to you than the information you have provided me. Reiteration of solutions I have already tried does neither of us any good. I have returned both cards to the original retailer. In the future please refrain from releasing unfinished products. I and other customers regard such actions as unlawful. I can no longer recommend your products due to poor driver performance under win2k (I have not tested any other OS nor do I wish to do so as your product ships with supposed perfect win2k drivers), which I have tested extensively. The long list of problems with your drivers is tiresome. DVD play, which I previously thought, worked perfectly stutters randomly. In the future please don't rely on your customer base to solve your problems for you because in the end you lose valuable promotional commentary along with a good customer. No need to reply I just thought you should know how thoroughly disgusted I am with your product and your company.


Interesting Article in Worth magazine Jan 2001, by Eric Alterman.
(How I feel)
Quote:

“”This “screw the consumer’s time, it’s not costing us anything” attitude appears to exist across the entire spectrum of new technology industries. I bought a scanner from UMAX that has never worked. There’s nobody at the other end to help, at least nobody I had the patience to find. The ugly thing has been sitting on my desk, unused, for two years. And have you tried to hook up a DSL line recently” I have, and I had to give up on that, too. It turned out Verizon, the new beast created out of Bell Atlantic’s merger with just about everybody else, had not yet come up with a modem compatible with Windows Me, though apparently it neglected to mention that to the person on the phone who was all to willing to take an order and let the caller waste hours trying to make the damn thing work. Chris Taylor of Time recently wrote of spending almost six months stuck inside a similar nightmare courtesy of Pacific Bell, which given its location, really ought to know better. The truth was that the company did not even offer the service, called D-Slam, that it had promised him, as it had run out of the hardware, but it continued to advertise it because, a rep admitted, their “competitors haven’t stopped advertising yet: The worst of it is that the entire time you are wasting away on hold, watching your fingernails grow, the company brags about its new and improved service menu.
This whole sector of the economy feels like the Soviet Union: Long waiting lines, no service, contempt for the consumer, products that don’t work when shipped, but somebody with the power to create a little trouble for the big boys arrives, and everybody starts jumping. Of course, the obvious differences are that innovation barely existed in Soviet industries, while the computer manufacturers are just about the most innovative people of all time. But the net result turns out to be more suffering for the rest of us.””
!