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Number of Americans in poverty hits record high

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September 13, 2011 5:38:56 PM

The number of Americans living in poverty rose to a record 46.2 million last year, official data has shown. This is the highest figure since the US Census Bureau started collecting the data in 1959.



In percentage terms, the poverty rate rose to 15.1%, up from 14.3% in 2009. Poverty among African Americans / Hispanics significantly higher. This latest Census Bureau report also states that the average annual US household income fell 2.3% in 2010 to $49,445. The number of Americans without health insurance is around 50 million.
September 13, 2011 5:49:13 PM

I just saw this on Drudge. See a relevant article by Robert Rector on the subject. That image in your post relates directly to this article.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/277040/strange-fac...

Quick summation:

● Eighty percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, in 1970, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

● Fully 92 percent of poor households have a microwave; two-thirds have at least one DVD player and 70 percent have a VCR.

● Nearly 75 percent have a car or truck; 31 percent have two or more cars or trucks.

● Four out of five poor adults assert they were never hungry at any time in the prior year due to lack of money for food.

● Nearly two-thirds have cable or satellite television.

● Half have a personal computer; one in seven have two or more computers.

● More than half of poor families with children have a video game system such as Xbox or PlayStation.

● Just under half — 43 percent — have Internet access.

● A third have a widescreen plasma or LCD TV.

● One in every four has a digital video recorder such as TiVo.

As noted, TV newscasts about poverty in America usually picture the poor as homeless or as a destitute family living in an overcrowded, rundown trailer. The actual facts are far different:
● At a single point in time, only one in 70 poor persons is homeless.

● The vast majority of the houses or apartments of the poor are in good repair; only 6 percent are over-crowded.

● The average poor American has more living space than the average non-poor individual living in Sweden, France, Germany or the United Kingdom.

● Only 10 percent of the poor live in mobile homes or trailers; half live in detached single-family houses or townhouses, while 40 percent live in apartments.

● Forty-two percent of all poor households own their home; on average, it’s a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

September 13, 2011 6:29:59 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
I just saw this on Drudge. See a relevant article by Robert Rector on the subject. That image in your post relates directly to this article.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/277040/strange-fac...

Quick summation:

● Eighty percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, in 1970, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

● Fully 92 percent of poor households have a microwave; two-thirds have at least one DVD player and 70 percent have a VCR.

● Nearly 75 percent have a car or truck; 31 percent have two or more cars or trucks.

● Four out of five poor adults assert they were never hungry at any time in the prior year due to lack of money for food.

● Nearly two-thirds have cable or satellite television.

● Half have a personal computer; one in seven have two or more computers.

● More than half of poor families with children have a video game system such as Xbox or PlayStation.

● Just under half — 43 percent — have Internet access.

● A third have a widescreen plasma or LCD TV.

● One in every four has a digital video recorder such as TiVo.

As noted, TV newscasts about poverty in America usually picture the poor as homeless or as a destitute family living in an overcrowded, rundown trailer. The actual facts are far different:
● At a single point in time, only one in 70 poor persons is homeless.

● The vast majority of the houses or apartments of the poor are in good repair; only 6 percent are over-crowded.

● The average poor American has more living space than the average non-poor individual living in Sweden, France, Germany or the United Kingdom.

● Only 10 percent of the poor live in mobile homes or trailers; half live in detached single-family houses or townhouses, while 40 percent live in apartments.

● Forty-two percent of all poor households own their home; on average, it’s a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.


Yay, three people living in a one bedroom apartment with a 10 year old second hand microwave, and no healthcare if it wasn't for the government, now that's luxury! Of course the Heritage "invading Iraq is necessary, wonderful and easy" Foundation conveniently doesn't mention the debt poor people often have, are one pay check away from bankrupcy or that they rely on government assistance to afford such luxuries as basic healthcare, a phone and even food (foodstamps). Nor does it mention that those appliances people have are often second hand, were purchased during better times or belong to someone else (say unemployed people temporarily living with relatives among their appliances).

How the hell can people complain about a 9% unemployment rate and at the same time deny poverty? Unemployment statistics only count people looking for a job, so maybe, just maybe this indicates people are struggling without an income, aka poor.
September 13, 2011 6:47:14 PM

It's only going to get worse if they don't change economic policy in America and keep jobs here. BTW, there are over 30 Million unemployed in the U.S. so it's no wonder so many are now living in povery.
September 13, 2011 6:56:42 PM

@Gulli

This just illustrates that poverty in the United States is defined by how big your LCD flatscreen TV is.

Search 'real poverty' in Google images.

The Heritage Foundation and Robert Rector have far more credibility than you Gulli. Far more.
September 13, 2011 7:27:24 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
@Gulli

This just illustrates that poverty in the United States is defined by how big your LCD flatscreen TV is.

Search 'real poverty' in Google images.

The Heritage Foundation and Robert Rector have far more credibility than you Gulli. Far more.


No, it only illustrates the poverty line is higher in the US than in the rest of the third world, boohoo, what a surprise that all those making $1 in America are dead already. Am I not poor if I bought a $100 LCD-TV the day before I got laid off? Am I not poor if I saved money for a year and then bought a second hand LCD-TV for $60? Am I not poor if I am unemployed and crash at grandma's house where an LCD-TV is present? Am I not poor if I'm being stupid and buy an LCD-TV on credit even though I'm broke?

The poverty line in America is around $11k for single people, 14k for couples, how many appliances you have doesn't enter into it. Now I agree that a college student with an income of 11k will be fine, but for an adult it really means poverty, not hunger, but poverty nonetheless.

As to the Heritage Foundation: when a person can consistently and accurately predict the outcome of all "research" done by a "think tank", to the point of them claiming 1+1=3 if Obama were to publicly declare that 1+1=2, then said think tank has 0 credibility.


September 13, 2011 7:36:31 PM

Guilli if you stop posting in his threads it will just be Oldman and Vadge, mumbling amongst themselves about liberals and such.

No matter what you say you cant change their minds. So just stop participating in his threads and maybe after a week or two this forum can go back to normal(Relatively).
September 13, 2011 7:41:48 PM

wanamingo said:
Guilli if you stop posting in his threads it will just be Oldman and Vadge, mumbling amongst themselves about liberals and such.

No matter what you say you cant change their minds. So just stop participating in his threads and maybe after a week or two this forum can go back to normal(Relatively).


I'm not posting here to change their minds, I'm posting here to learn from it and maybe sway people who haven't made their mind up yet. Well, and sometimes just for the fun of reading certain comments and Ann Coulter pieces.
September 13, 2011 10:17:55 PM

Gulli said:
No, it only illustrates the poverty line is higher in the US than in the rest of the third world, boohoo, what a surprise that all those making $1 in America are dead already. Am I not poor if I bought a $100 LCD-TV the day before I got laid off? .



And speaking from my own experience working in retail, seeing day in and day out for so many years that it makes me wanna cry thinking about being stuck in this industry... Are you really poor if you are on Foodstamps? Yet somehow ALSO on WIC, because you have 3 very young children yet proceeded to have more even though you were already on assistance? Wait. You are supposedly needy, and starving. Yet after ringing up your entire grocery order of pure junk food, chips cookies frozen dinners soda (wait, I freaking drink tap water that I pour into a container to chill in fridge, I slave 9hrs a day so I can take money directly out of my wallet and into your hands SO YOU CAN BUY SODA?? YOU NEED THAT TO LIVE/SURVIVE??), you then have half a grocery cart full of the best cuts of steak, chicken, pork chops, seafood etc. And so absolutely no one will be fooled as to just how desperate their need was, they pull out wads of 20's and 100's to buy hard alcohol, 30 packs of beer, and cigs.

Do any of you people with your heads in the sand, realize just how many customers come in with Foodstamps, chatting on brand new smart phones with approx 50-100 dollar monthly fees associated with them (since most smart phones have mandatory data plans)? Females with super-expensive salon nails freshly done? Designer sunglasses and handbags, very nice clothing, and after they checkout they head DIRECTLY to the Redbox to rent movies??


I guess I could be fooled or try to ignore the issue, if I didn't have to see first-hand just how disgusting and widespread the problem is. In fact I have to think extremely hard about our regular shoppers to bring to mind the 1 or 2 I've seen come thru that genuinely seemed in need and were wise with their purchases... trust me they are the EXCEPTION, not the rule. Because if someone was so down-trodden that they required assistance, then logically they would be very frugal with purchases to avoid sliding down further, right?


That is the other side of things that you don't seem to see Gulli, in your sheltered life view. It has nothing to do with not wanting to assist those that are truly in need, but it's obvious from the behavior of most of the people on assistance that there is something wrong with their understanding of right and wrong. A person on Foodstamps DOES NOT have the right to have steak and pork chops every night, while I work all day and maybe get a steak once a month. They do NOT have the right to drink 3-5 12pks of soda a week while I drink tap water at home. They do NOT have the right to save hard cash to budget into Alcohol Tobacco Cable Internet Smart Phones etc, while the rest of the public has to budget out food first and then cannot afford to waste money on all the chips cookies steak lobster junk food.

I think that what Gamer might be trying to imply is that a massive portion of those "poor" are playing the game, working the gov't dole. It is exactly this lack of responsibility and entitlement-culture that is the problem in this country, and if we could fix attitudes then perhaps we could all come together.

People will rush to assist those that are truly in need. Stealing from the wallets of those that grind all day, 5+ days of week, and then making them watch as others take that money and abuse the system, is what has been fueling the growing disgust.
September 13, 2011 11:37:50 PM

knarl said:
And speaking from my own experience working in retail, seeing day in and day out for so many years that it makes me wanna cry thinking about being stuck in this industry... Are you really poor if you are on Foodstamps? Yet somehow ALSO on WIC, because you have 3 very young children yet proceeded to have more even though you were already on assistance? Wait. You are supposedly needy, and starving. Yet after ringing up your entire grocery order of pure junk food, chips cookies frozen dinners soda (wait, I freaking drink tap water that I pour into a container to chill in fridge, I slave 9hrs a day so I can take money directly out of my wallet and into your hands SO YOU CAN BUY SODA?? YOU NEED THAT TO LIVE/SURVIVE??), you then have half a grocery cart full of the best cuts of steak, chicken, pork chops, seafood etc. And so absolutely no one will be fooled as to just how desperate their need was, they pull out wads of 20's and 100's to buy hard alcohol, 30 packs of beer, and cigs.

Do any of you people with your heads in the sand, realize just how many customers come in with Foodstamps, chatting on brand new smart phones with approx 50-100 dollar monthly fees associated with them (since most smart phones have mandatory data plans)? Females with super-expensive salon nails freshly done? Designer sunglasses and handbags, very nice clothing, and after they checkout they head DIRECTLY to the Redbox to rent movies??


I guess I could be fooled or try to ignore the issue, if I didn't have to see first-hand just how disgusting and widespread the problem is. In fact I have to think extremely hard about our regular shoppers to bring to mind the 1 or 2 I've seen come thru that genuinely seemed in need and were wise with their purchases... trust me they are the EXCEPTION, not the rule. Because if someone was so down-trodden that they required assistance, then logically they would be very frugal with purchases to avoid sliding down further, right?


That is the other side of things that you don't seem to see Gulli, in your sheltered life view. It has nothing to do with not wanting to assist those that are truly in need, but it's obvious from the behavior of most of the people on assistance that there is something wrong with their understanding of right and wrong. A person on Foodstamps DOES NOT have the right to have steak and pork chops every night, while I work all day and maybe get a steak once a month. They do NOT have the right to drink 3-5 12pks of soda a week while I drink tap water at home. They do NOT have the right to save hard cash to budget into Alcohol Tobacco Cable Internet Smart Phones etc, while the rest of the public has to budget out food first and then cannot afford to waste money on all the chips cookies steak lobster junk food.

I think that what Gamer might be trying to imply is that a massive portion of those "poor" are playing the game, working the gov't dole. It is exactly this lack of responsibility and entitlement-culture that is the problem in this country, and if we could fix attitudes then perhaps we could all come together.

People will rush to assist those that are truly in need. Stealing from the wallets of those that grind all day, 5+ days of week, and then making them watch as others take that money and abuse the system, is what has been fueling the growing disgust.


There are always people who take advantage of the system, I don't know how many of them there are, and neither do you or gamer. I did not deny there is abuse, I went against gamer's assertion that there are no poor, except for the homeless. I also pointed out that poor people having appliances is no proof they are not poor. There is this view that you can buy a Mercedes or, as you mentioned, a smartphone off welfare. Well, you cannot. You can steal those items and you can buy a smart phone second hand, alternatively you could sell drugs to raise money, but you cannot afford expensive stuff off welfare, that is a really persistent myth. If someone wants to honestly discuss welfare reform then I'm open to discussing it, when someone just shouts "them lazy bitches be takin my monies!" I won't take them seriously.

Maybe we can relate to each other here: the feeling you and gamer get when seeing a smoking and drinking single mom ask for welfare is the same feeling I get when I see a multimillionaire CEO, just done with hiding his companies profits in Switzerland, ask for tax breaks and subsidies. Why don't I get as worked up about the former as I do about the latter? Well, that single mom may cost "us" $10.000 per year but that CEO costs us $10.000.000.000 a year, the same as a million welfare cheats (I'm not kidding, there really are several companies who trick the government out of billions of tax dollars each year). I thinkl the big fish should be our priority.
September 14, 2011 1:22:18 PM

I agree Gulli ... your on the right track mate.

:) 
September 14, 2011 1:39:16 PM

Gulli said:
There are always people who take advantage of the system, I don't know how many of them there are, and neither do you or gamer. I did not deny there is abuse, I went against gamer's assertion that there are no poor, except for the homeless. I also pointed out that poor people having appliances is no proof they are not poor. There is this view that you can buy a Mercedes or, as you mentioned, a smartphone off welfare. Well, you cannot. You can steal those items and you can buy a smart phone second hand, alternatively you could sell drugs to raise money, but you cannot afford expensive stuff off welfare, that is a really persistent myth. If someone wants to honestly discuss welfare reform then I'm open to discussing it, when someone just shouts "them lazy bitches be takin my monies!" I won't take them seriously.

Maybe we can relate to each other here: the feeling you and gamer get when seeing a smoking and drinking single mom ask for welfare is the same feeling I get when I see a multimillionaire CEO, just done with hiding his companies profits in Switzerland, ask for tax breaks and subsidies. Why don't I get as worked up about the former as I do about the latter? Well, that single mom may cost "us" $10.000 per year but that CEO costs us $10.000.000.000 a year, the same as a million welfare cheats (I'm not kidding, there really are several companies who trick the government out of billions of tax dollars each year). I thinkl the big fish should be our priority.



I asserted no such thing. I am pointing out the media in America make it look like ALL of "the poor" in America are like the poor soul in that photograph. They at least create the preception of this being reality, when in fact only 3-5% of "the poor" are like the man in that photo.

I mean, 47% of people considered "poor" in America own their own home? Really?

Lets keep things in perspective. Go to the slums in India. Now that's freakin' poverty!!
September 14, 2011 1:48:29 PM

Precisely ... and if you had your way the social security net in the US would reflect that of India.

Well it will soon enough with the way your economy is heading.

Hint: When China starts outsourcing their manufacturing to the US you will know this to be true ... and if in doubt just call the HP Helpline to see if the person on the other end of the line has a US accent.

Have you noticed any army trucks bringing in homeless people and getting them to start digging rice paddies nearby?

Has everyone started dressing like Bruce Lee?

Has your TV now only got one channel?
September 14, 2011 4:00:34 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
They at least create the preception of this being reality, when in fact only 3-5% of "the poor" are like the man in that photo.




See, now that is a stat that I could believe, because it more closely meshes what I have to see daily in retail. Many people on assistance (1 in 4 now I think, according to newspaper reports?), yet just a small percentage of those shoppers make wise frugal purchases that one would assume would be required for someone so destitute and "poor".






It's easy for Gulli and those like him to say no one knows just how many are abusing the system... hell, it's also easy to just turn your head. But while maybe nobody can truly know by some strict definition of knowledge he might make up, I am confident I have a better chance of ballparking it since I work right there at the point of sale where EBT card users come in for purchases. Makes me wonder why someone wouldn't just take that testimony on face value. I guess Gulli thinks I have some hidden agenda to push, being a normal guy in a fairly lame retail grocery job, that happens to love computers so decided this would be a perfect forum to get my agenda to the masses?? Haha.

Btw before they even ask or start speculating: Registered Independent from AZ, and have never voted for a Republican Presidential Candidate in my lifetime so far. I AM biased, just like anyone else, and have admitted that obvious fact in these forums before. But I don't let my biases keep me from reading from all sides, so I can either see where I need to reflect, or know when someone's pov is just dead wrong.
September 15, 2011 1:32:28 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
I asserted no such thing. I am pointing out the media in America make it look like ALL of "the poor" in America are like the poor soul in that photograph. They at least create the preception of this being reality, when in fact only 3-5% of "the poor" are like the man in that photo.

I mean, 47% of people considered "poor" in America own their own home? Really?

Lets keep things in perspective. Go to the slums in India. Now that's freakin' poverty!!


No, 42% bought a home when they still had a job and have not been foreclosed as of yet.

With 9% unemployment, that's 14 million people who are out of a job and looking for a new one (this excludes people who have simply given up), it's very unrealistic to think only 1,35 to 2,25 million Americans are "really" poor. Like I said, there are students who are doing fine with less than 11k a year, there are criminals who make more than 11k but are registered as poor because their criminal income is not registered. Stll, this leaves many millions who are truly poor, sometimes out of work, sometimes stuck in a dead end minimum wage job without benefits.
September 15, 2011 1:37:35 PM

knarl said:
It's easy for Gulli and those like him to say no one knows just how many are abusing the system... hell, it's also easy to just turn your head. But while maybe nobody can truly know by some strict definition of knowledge he might make up, I am confident I have a better chance of ballparking it since I work right there at the point of sale where EBT card users come in for purchases. Makes me wonder why someone wouldn't just take that testimony on face value. I guess Gulli thinks I have some hidden agenda to push, being a normal guy in a fairly lame retail grocery job, that happens to love computers so decided this would be a perfect forum to get my agenda to the masses?? Haha.


I don't take testimonies at face value because a store owner in Beverly Hills would tell me half of all Americans are millionaires while a store owner in South Central LA would tell me 10% of poor people drive big cars and wear jewelry (paid for through crime, not welfare), while a store owner in West Virginia would tell me half the poor own a truck (a $200 fourth or fifth hand 1970s truck) and a home (a crumbling shack they inherited).

Also, when people make stupid decisions in a store it doesn't mean they're not poor, it just means they make stupid decisions. As a store owner you must know how cheap unhealthy food is compared to healthy food. Let's just say farm subsidies are somewhat more lucrative for those that produce corn and sugar than for those that produce carrots or broccoli.
September 15, 2011 2:34:10 PM

Programs using the guidelines (or percentage multiples of the guidelines — for instance, 125 percent or 185 percent of the guidelines) in determining eligibility include Head Start, the Food Stamp Program, the National School Lunch Program, the Low-Income Home Energy Assistance Program, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program. Note that in general, cash public assistance programs (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families and Supplemental Security Income) do NOT use the poverty guidelines in determining eligibility. The Earned Income Tax Credit program also does NOT use the poverty guidelines to determine eligibility.

2011 HHS Poverty Guidelines Persons
in Family 48 Contiguous
States and D.C. Alaska Hawaii
1 $10,890 $13,600 $12,540
2 14,710 18,380 16,930
3 18,530 23,160 21,320
4 22,350 27,940 25,710
5 26,170 32,720 30,100
6 29,990 37,500 34,490
7 33,810 42,280 38,880
8 37,630 47,060 43,270
For each additional
person, add 3,820 4,780 4,390
First column is persons in family.

From this it's not hard to see that so much of the population is in poverty.
As noted above, different gov't agencies use different thresholds to determine poverty.

So if you aren't told just exactly statstics are being used anyone can wiggle the figures to fit their agenda.

September 15, 2011 2:47:58 PM

Thanks Delroy.

This topic is not an easy one to discuss or understand when many people simply are in a difficult finacial state moreso because of their poor spending habits and also easily fall prey to conspicuous consumption in a capitalist society to compound the issue.

Fashion, sporting attire, jewelery, fast foods ... the list is endless.

September 15, 2011 4:07:55 PM

America has been very luckly. We are blessed with tons of natual resources and a wealth of talent people. Now we are a mature nation and all the problems that we were able to avoid before are hitting us and we are more clueless then ever on what to do...
September 15, 2011 5:21:17 PM

to paraphrase one of my favorite comedians Bill Hicks ..
"Gulli , your Denial is beneath you, and thanks to the use of hallucinagenic drugs, I can see through you" ..lol
Gulli is so twisted his logic is this ..
since 10% of the legal prostitutes in Netheralnds have full blown AIDS, Gulli would consider the program a success, because after all 90% of the legal prostitutes do NOT have full blown AIDS ..
he scorns corporate abuses , while condoning individual abuses, and aparantly thinks a million individual abuses are acceptable because it euqals 1 corporate abuse ?
ok this is the REALLY hard harsh part, (this is the part where Gulli compares me to Hitler) ..but if you REALLY want to do something about poverty, you must also take into account 'birth Rate' ..now BEFORE you go screaming..let's take a look at China
in 1979 when I was a kid , I had to eat all my vegetables because 'children are starving in China' ..China instituted an extremely harsh policy of 1 child per family.
Now let's look at China today ..they are THE foremost economic powerhouse in the world and are expected to surpass even the USA as the number Economy on the planet. I am not condoning now supporting this policy , merely pointing out the effectiveness of it (oh and China also had an entire generation grow up on Rice Food Rations, (they had to eat Rice at least 5 times a week, because it cost them nothing) while they ..PAID OFF Their National Debt )) ..now let's comapre the the avg US Family and European family birth rate to say that of your classic 3rd world nations in poverty , I believe you will find a distinct correlation in the charts and graphs. the simple fact is children cost money. The question is again , who the money belong to ?
It's just simple numbers and math ..no moralizing needed.
September 15, 2011 5:24:22 PM

*edit* ..number one Economy on the planet
*edit* not condoning NOR supporting this policy
September 15, 2011 5:38:15 PM

ltrazaklt said:
Now let's look at China today ..they are THE foremost economic powerhouse in the world and are expected to surpass even the USA as the number Economy on the planet.


600 million Chinese (almost half the population) still earn less than $2 per day ($730 per year), while GDP per capita is $4400 per year (one tenth of the American figure). China was always destined to become the world's biggest economy because it has the world's largest population.

China also maintains the death penalty for tax evasion and aggressively "interferes" with corporations, including through "5-year plans" that force corporations to move in certain directions, in addition it has publicly funded universal healthcare and education. But I guess you like to leave those "socialist" parts out.
September 15, 2011 5:47:09 PM

^^ actually, other than shooting you in head if a CEO screws up, China is very hands off with the businesses. I watched a History Channle special by Tom Brokaw on the subject last year.

Now, you can argue this is the reason toys laced with lead paint show up on our shores along with poisoned dog food but also the reason business is booming in China right now.

Their standard of living has really done a 180 in the last 20-30 years and they like it really a lot.
September 15, 2011 5:59:21 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
^^ actually, other than shooting you in head if a CEO screws up, China is very hands off with the businesses. I watched a History Channle special by Tom Brokaw on the subject last year.

Now, you can argue this is the reason toys laced with lead paint show up on our shores along with poisoned dog food but also the reason business is booming in China right now.

Their standard of living has really done a 180 in the last 20-30 years and they like it really a lot.


It's true they don't care much for safety and environmental regulations (that's changing though), however they are very strict in their top down economy. If the government says x% of all electricity has to come from solar energy in 2020 than it better be x% in 2020, otherwise heads will roll. People have been executed for not following government regulations.

The whole point I'm trying to make though is that China emulates both America and Europe.
September 15, 2011 6:39:27 PM

As a point of interest, the way "the poor" are calculated does not include the dollars they receive in non-cash benefits like food and housing subsidies and is based solely on earned income. This calculation also does not include the differences in the cost of living in different parts of the country and the cost of out of pocket services like child care. As a result, the view of who is or is not considered poor is skewed from the outset.

Another point of interest, out of the 70+ welfare programs available only one (1) requires able-bodied recipients to work or look for work.

Before anyone freaks out, I am not against the poor! I am not against helping those in need! I do not advocate cuts to welfare programs that require recipients to work or look for work!

I am against continued government funding (read as tax payer dollars) for programs that enable dependency. I am against more legislation that does not address or reform the inherent failings of existing programs. I am against the rhetoric that perpetuates the false notion that government is responsible to provide a lifestyle to recipients.

Lastly, poverty will never go away, there will always be those who earn less and have less than others; this is part and parcel to human nature. At best, the issue of poverty becomes a question of varying degrees. The concept of varying degrees of poverty has been illustrated by posts within this thread that shed light on the fact that the majority of the poor in America have a home, a car, a cell phone, computer, are not starving to death, are not destitute, and are not left to fester and die in squalor. As also pointed out, by comparing the standard of living of America's poor to the poor in other countries further demonstrates the concept of varying degrees. To think that government, social programs, or any amount of spending will eliminate poverty is naive. The best government can do is enable the infrastructure that gives the poor an avenue and opportunity to find their own way out and improve their own standard of living.
September 15, 2011 8:37:04 PM

chunkymonster said:
As a point of interest, the way "the poor" are calculated does not include the dollars they receive in non-cash benefits like food and housing subsidies and is based solely on earned income. This calculation also does not include the differences in the cost of living in different parts of the country and the cost of out of pocket services like child care. As a result, the view of who is or is not considered poor is skewed from the outset.

Another point of interest, out of the 70+ welfare programs available only one (1) requires able-bodied recipients to work or look for work.

Before anyone freaks out, I am not against the poor! I am not against helping those in need! I do not advocate cuts to welfare programs that require recipients to work or look for work!

I am against continued government funding (read as tax payer dollars) for programs that enable dependency. I am against more legislation that does not address or reform the inherent failings of existing programs. I am against the rhetoric that perpetuates the false notion that government is responsible to provide a lifestyle to recipients.

Lastly, poverty will never go away, there will always be those who earn less and have less than others; this is part and parcel to human nature. At best, the issue of poverty becomes a question of varying degrees. The concept of varying degrees of poverty has been illustrated by posts within this thread that shed light on the fact that the majority of the poor in America have a home, a car, a cell phone, computer, are not starving to death, are not destitute, and are not left to fester and die in squalor. As also pointed out, by comparing the standard of living of America's poor to the poor in other countries further demonstrates the concept of varying degrees. To think that government, social programs, or any amount of spending will eliminate poverty is naive. The best government can do is enable the infrastructure that gives the poor an avenue and opportunity to find their own way out and improve their own standard of living.


In theory I agree but in reality we tax payers will pay regardless. The facts show that around 97% of those incarcerated in prison do not have a college degree. Those without a college degree are also the wage earners right on the poverty line or below. So really when you look at the data the only way to break the poverty dependency on welfare is to have a more educated society. So us tax payers either pay taxes that end up going for welfare or prison of which the later is much more costly per person. We need our education standards to come up.

http://www.businessinsurance.org/prison-industry/

http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/itv/articles/?id...

http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/2528/Characteristics-...
September 15, 2011 9:23:59 PM

JamesSneed said:
In theory I agree but in reality we tax payers will pay regardless. The facts show that around 97% of those incarcerated in prison do not have a college degree. Those without a college degree are also the wage earners right on the poverty line or below. So really when you look at the data the only way to break the poverty dependency on welfare is to have a more educated society. So us tax payers either pay taxes that end up going for welfare or prison of which the later is much more costly per person. We need our education standards to come up.
I totally agree that education is a key component to pulling people out of poverty but not sure that a college education is necessary to reach that goal. I think that a vocational education would be far more beneficial than another BA, BS, or MBA competing for jobs in the marketplace.

Personally, I am an advocate of public Vocational High Schools (I'm talking about public vocational high schools, NOT ITT Tech, Lincoln Tech, or other such for-profit technical diploma mills) and the Adult Education programs they offer. Public Vocational High Schools and Adult Education programs have the excellent potential to teach someone actual skills that can be easily injected into the job market. Regardless of the economy there will always be a certain level of demand for auto mechanics, electricians, carpenters, welders, chefs, nurses aids, HVAC technicians, electronics technicians, etc. Public Vocational High Schools are often overlooked within the educational system as an educational alternative, which is a shame because they already have the facilities, teaching staff, the tax payer funding, job placement programs, and are adept by design at providing the skills that many employers can put to work immediately. Given the existing infrastructure of Vocational High Schools, the Adult Education programs are very affordable and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a tax payer who would not support their dollars being used to subsidize a welfare recipient's vocational education. Also, a vocational education does not preclude the students ability to continue on to college and receive a "higher education".
September 15, 2011 9:42:10 PM

Yes we need our education system improved but most of all we need everyone to take personal responsibility for their actions. That means the welfare frauds, crackheads, prositutes as well as the CEOs who import crap from China for a larger annual bonus and the scumbag bankers who defraud consumers and the oil company execs who price gouge because they have a monopoly.

There are many legal ways to fix America and rid it of the criminals who live in the ghettos or executive offices - but Congress is as much of the problem as the other dirtbag criminals because many in Congress are the worst criminals.
September 15, 2011 10:36:20 PM

chunkymonster said:
I totally agree that education is a key component to pulling people out of poverty but not sure that a college education is necessary to reach that goal. I think that a vocational education would be far more beneficial than another BA, BS, or MBA competing for jobs in the marketplace.

Personally, I am an advocate of public Vocational High Schools (I'm talking about public vocational high schools, NOT ITT Tech, Lincoln Tech, or other such for-profit technical diploma mills) and the Adult Education programs they offer. Public Vocational High Schools and Adult Education programs have the excellent potential to teach someone actual skills that can be easily injected into the job market. Regardless of the economy there will always be a certain level of demand for auto mechanics, electricians, carpenters, welders, chefs, nurses aids, HVAC technicians, electronics technicians, etc.


For once we agree on something. College education should be available to all, rich or poor, but it is both impractical to put everyone through college: vocational education is better for some and there are jobs in it.

chunkymonster said:
Given the existing infrastructure of Vocational High Schools, the Adult Education programs are very affordable and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a tax payer who would not support their dollars being used to subsidize a welfare recipient's vocational education. Also, a vocational education does not preclude the students ability to continue on to college and receive a "higher education".


Hard pressed to find someone who doesn't want to pay taxes for what is essentially a form of government run charity/welfare? Are you sure you are talking about America here?
September 16, 2011 1:44:59 AM

Gulli said:
For once we agree on something. College education should be available to all, rich or poor, but it is both impractical to put everyone through college: vocational education is better for some and there are jobs in it.
Even community colleges offer certification courses that are affordable. The local county college offers certification courses for the PMP, Home Inspector, Paralegal, etc. Again, even with this economy these are skills that will always have a certain level of demand.

Gulli said:
Hard pressed to find someone who doesn't want to pay taxes for what is essentially a form of government run charity/welfare? Are you sure you are talking about America here?
See, this is where you lose me. Honestly, I'm not sure if there is a fundamental misunderstanding and/or misperception of what you believe America to be or it's just that you are purposefully being a tosser with these types of comments. I don't know what tweaked your shorts to persist with the ignorant and disdainful comments about America. I'm cool with the notion that you simply need a target for your angst and it just happens you take out your zeal on America. Hey, if you really just don't like America or Americans, it's cool by me, but don't hide behind your words, just say it. Anyway, don't seem so surprised to think that people would not support a tax payer funded government program that enables the able bodied recipients to receive the training and skills that will, ultimately, enable them to get off the dole, and here's the rub, providing that the program is effective at actually getting people off the dole. Additionally, if such a program incorporated public vocational schools and adult education programs it would be a cost effective use of an existing infrastructure with minimal government oversight and no increase in local or state taxes.

September 16, 2011 2:10:28 AM

Gulli said:
....you must know how cheap unhealthy food is compared to healthy food.


In the interest of keeping a friendly environment up within these heated threads, I tried to seize on something I agree with you on. And it truly is disgusting that in America you can buy 3 twinkies for a buck, but some powerbars are 2-3 bucks and Ensure six packs can be upwards of 10 :( 

Don't even get me started on the whole Ethanol fiasco, and what that demand for corn does to the prices on TONS of products in your local grocery store that are made from corn/corn syrup. Raises prices both in the store and at the pump as well.
September 16, 2011 2:50:16 AM

Gulli said:
There are always people who take advantage of the system, I don't know how many of them there are, and neither do you or gamer. I did not deny there is abuse, I went against gamer's assertion that there are no poor, except for the homeless. I also pointed out that poor people having appliances is no proof they are not poor. There is this view that you can buy a Mercedes or, as you mentioned, a smartphone off welfare. Well, you cannot. You can steal those items and you can buy a smart phone second hand, alternatively you could sell drugs to raise money, but you cannot afford expensive stuff off welfare, that is a really persistent myth. If someone wants to honestly discuss welfare reform then I'm open to discussing it, when someone just shouts "them lazy bitches be takin my monies!" I won't take them seriously.

Maybe we can relate to each other here: the feeling you and gamer get when seeing a smoking and drinking single mom ask for welfare is the same feeling I get when I see a multimillionaire CEO, just done with hiding his companies profits in Switzerland, ask for tax breaks and subsidies. Why don't I get as worked up about the former as I do about the latter? Well, that single mom may cost "us" $10.000 per year but that CEO costs us $10.000.000.000 a year, the same as a million welfare cheats (I'm not kidding, there really are several companies who trick the government out of billions of tax dollars each year). I thinkl the big fish should be our priority.



Actually Knarl is pretty Accurate with what he said. My guess would be he most likely works at either Wal-Mart of Kroger, I work at Wally world myself. And I see it every day, especially if I end up checking out on the front end. When you see what we have seen working in that industry, and realize that we spend our days grinding away for 8-10 hours or more per day to barely get by. And then, a person who doesn't work or have a desire to do so walks in with all designer clothes new nails, checks out with 200+ in groceries and then hands you a foodstamp card or uses wic or both. Better yet is when you look at the ticket to make sure you got everything and you see that what they spent wasn't even a third of what they had available. Then you realize the medicaid they receive for free, covers more than the insurance you pay for out of your paycheck from work.
September 16, 2011 3:24:02 AM

Mathos said:
Actually Knarl is pretty Accurate with what he said. My guess would be he most likely works at either Wal-Mart of Kroger, I work at Wally world myself. And I see it every day, especially if I end up checking out on the front end. When you see what we have seen working in that industry, and realize that we spend our days grinding away for 8-10 hours or more per day to barely get by. And then, a person who doesn't work or have a desire to do so walks in with all designer clothes new nails, checks out with 200+ in groceries and then hands you a foodstamp card or uses wic or both. Better yet is when you look at the ticket to make sure you got everything and you see that what they spent wasn't even a third of what they had available. Then you realize the medicaid they receive for free, covers more than the insurance you pay for out of your paycheck from work.


If they can spend $200+ on groceries then they have "secondary" (criminal) income.

Pssst, you can buy "designer" clothes for a dollar fifty these days, just cut out the "Made in China" label and paint over the "y" in "Nyke".
September 16, 2011 3:29:20 AM

As for secondary income::
Velita P. Downey, 43, of Oklahoma City, and Chris E. Pasley, 26, of Lawton, were arrested Friday after police said they stole about $3,000 worth of merchandise, including clothes, shoes and bedding from J.C. Penney. Mall employees have documented $300,000 worth of items they believe the two women stole going as far back as March.


Read more: http://newsok.com/confessed-shoplifter-says-im-addicted...

There were follow up stories on this. They were taking 'orders' for merchandise from people in their apartment complex.
September 16, 2011 4:53:02 AM

wanamingo said:
Guilli if you stop posting in his threads it will just be Oldman and Vadge, mumbling amongst themselves about liberals and such.

No matter what you say you cant change their minds. So just stop participating in his threads and maybe after a week or two this forum can go back to normal(Relatively).



no it will not go away until after this election cycle is over. certain money interests pay amateur writers to blog political rhetoric during election cycles. not that using the tomshardware forum is blogging but you get the picture. so until 2012 the spambots will not go away.
September 16, 2011 5:11:15 AM

Gulli said:
If they can spend $200+ on groceries then they have "secondary" (criminal) income.

.



And I have no doubt. Not only are they most likely doing drugs (why wouldn't they if they have all day off, no responsibilities, and are already also using tobacco and alcohol? Ya know weed is basically just cigs, right? haha), and perhaps occasionally selling it... but they also play as many scams as they can. Continually popping out children (damn, I wanted to have kids, but me and the ole lady decided to put it off a while til we could better afford it, being responsible people. But wait, I have to help pay support for those that are irresponsible and continue to have children they cannot support on their own income, even though they were on assistance before getting pregnant again? Lopsided world) so that their tax breaks grow each year and their assistance grows as well, purposely not wedding the father of the children and playing games with which addresses they provide on documentation so the father's income won't affect their assistance totals, and... and... we haven't even gotten in to some of the real disgusting stuff yet.

Mathos was spot on... you can tell he's been on the frontline just by what he wrote/predicted. I am in fact with Kroger, perhaps not all that surprising since Wally World and Kroger are basically #1 & #2. Maybe he will know something about the next outrageous scheme I am gonna mention. Recently our Prez had the bright idea of changing our return policy, to a "no questions asked, no receipt needed". He made some comments about how someone doing return scams, or even stealing off our shelves and then returning it with no receipt, shouldn't bother the company in the long-term because someday those people might change their ways and be a potential loyal customer in the future. Yea, I am not kidding. That is not verbatim, but is fairly close to the statement he made.

One tiny problem though. People that have purchased food with EBT/Foodstamps are required to have the return sent directly back to their card, so they cannot potentially defraud the taxpayer by converting Foodstamps into unapproved purchases. With Kroger's new policy, they are basically aiding and abetting... and our customers aren't even subtle about it. Almost every day I will have a customer attempt to checkout with a Kroger gift card (which has a 30min security activation delay if you try to use it at a different register) for tobacco/alcohol items. I will escort the customer to our service desk, and it's then that I find out the customer returned frozen dinners bought with EBT just 5-10mins before the return, and they get caught in a lie since they told the girl they had made the food purchase yesterday and didn't have a receipt. When we then tell them we won't sell them the tobacco/alcohol because that return came from EBT, and they would be defrauding the Foodstamp system, their entire demeanor changes - suddenly they are mad and mean and are quickly hightailing it out of the store.


It's not like Gulli is saying it doesn't happen at all. But I think he severely underestimates the scope of the problem. It takes quite a bit to get me worked up about some rich person, I believe in American principles and if one is ambitious and entrepreneurial, I don't believe others have a right to his/her labor (Of course those that are doing it unethically/criminally should be everyone's focus). I am mostly at peace with my status in life since it sadly matches my ambition level, but the one thing I cannot abide is getting slapped in the face daily by the sheer volume of people that are living on the dole, and living the high life (perhaps high in more ways than one??).

I think I could shock Gulli by uploading and linking some pics of the stuff we see at work. I know it's not really the right thing to do, but oftentimes the employees will get so disgusted by things we see that we'll pull out our phones and snap a quick photo. I have pics of various $2000-3000 foodstamp balances showing on receipt (mind you this is AFTER they've already done a full cart of shopping)... I even have a pic right now on my phone of the main terminal of our self-checkout screen that controls 4 uscan registers, showing Foodstamps being used at all four registers at the same time. This kinda stuff isn't rare, it's effing commonplace and daily.
September 16, 2011 5:15:32 AM

DelroyMonjo said:
As for secondary income::
Velita P. Downey, 43, of Oklahoma City, and Chris E. Pasley, 26, of Lawton, were arrested Friday after police said they stole about $3,000 worth of merchandise, including clothes, shoes and bedding from J.C. Penney. Mall employees have documented $300,000 worth of items they believe the two women stole going as far back as March.


Read more: http://newsok.com/confessed-shoplifter-says-im-addicted...

There were follow up stories on this. They were taking 'orders' for merchandise from people in their apartment complex.



http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/09/14/20110...

6 years they were in operation, tens of thousands stolen yet they can only estimate totals based on what was found unsold, and length of the group's activities.

"Eleven people were arrested and face a 53-count Maricopa County grand jury indictment. Authorities are still searching for five other suspects.
Nearly $86,000 in stolen items and 76 victims have been identified, said Phoenix police Sgt. Aimee Smith."

"Stolen goods and money remain unaccounted for because most of the stolen items were sold across the United States or in Mexico, Smith said."







p.s. Another: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/09/07/20110...
It seems I see a new one on the local news every day. Most don't get caught sadly, we get shoplifted daily and between policies and liability, no one approaches them and it has to be literally a 4-5 day in a row consistent repeat offender before Police will investigate. I know Police often have way more important matters at hand, but at the same time, you know damn well Corporations aren't taking those as profit losses, they will pass it onto consumers with higher prices.
September 16, 2011 5:49:05 AM

This is just 2 crooks out of how many?

Two Oklahoma City convenience store owners have been sentenced to two years in federal prison for food stamp fraud.

Muluneh Zeleke, 55, of Oklahoma City, also was ordered to pay $966,416 in restitution to the U.S. Agriculture Department. He is the owner of Z&Z Convenience Store at 2445 Martin Luther King Ave.

He pleaded guilty in February.
The other convenience story owner, Muhammad Zahid, 28, of Edmond, was sentenced last week. Zahid was ordered to pay $326,307 in restitution.

Read more: http://newsok.com/two-oklahoma-city-convenience-store-o...

Read more: http://newsok.com/two-oklahoma-city-convenience-store-o...
September 16, 2011 1:00:52 PM

asven1 said:
no it will not go away until after this election cycle is over. certain money interests pay amateur writers to blog political rhetoric during election cycles. not that using the tomshardware forum is blogging but you get the picture. so until 2012 the spambots will not go away.



Yes, those would be the George Soros funded organizations. Media Matters, MoveOn.org, The Tides Foundation, The Apollo Institute, et al.

- “It is sort of a disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out,” (The Independent, June 3, 1993 “THE BILLIONAIRE WHO BUILT ON CHAOS – GEORGE SOROS.”)

- “I admit that I have always harbored an exaggerated view of my self-importance—to put it bluntly, I fancied myself as some kind of god or an economic reformer like Keynes (each with his General Theory) or, even better, a scientist like Einstein (reflexivity sounds like relativity).” (The Alchemy of Finance, George Soros) (Link)

- “If truth be known, I carried some rather potent messianic fantasies with me from childhood which I felt I had to control, otherwise I might end up in the loony bin. But when I made my way in the world I wanted to indulge myself in my fantasies to the extent that I could afford.” George Soros “Underwriting Democracy: Encouraging Free Enterprise And Democratic Reform Among the Soviets and in Eastern Europe” (Link)

- “As September 15 wore on, George Soros’s confidence that Britain would pull the pound out of the ERM was growing. It had been Stanley Druckenmiller who had thought the time ripe for making a bet against the sterling. He talked to Soros about doing something. Soros gave him the green light but urged his head trader to bet an even larger sum than Druckenmiller had in mind. And so Druckenmiller, acting for Soros, sold $10 billion worth of sterling… The next morning at 7:00, the phone rang at Soros’s home. It was Stan Druckenmiller with news… While George Soros had slept, he racked a profit $958 million. When Soros’s gains from other positions he took during the ERM crisis were tallied, he racked up close to $2 billion… It was this bet, this single act of placing $10 billion on the fact that Britain would have to devalue the pound, that made George Soros world famous,” (SOROS THE UNAUTHORIZED BIOGRAPHY, pgs 5-6).

- “He famously shorted the British pound in 1992, wagering $10 billion on a drop in its value. In a desperate bid to keep its currency afloat, the Bank of England tried to buy up pounds as fast as Soros could dump them. However, as more and more investors followed Soros’ lead and joined his efforts, the Bank of England eventually gave up. The British pound was devalued, launching a tsunami of financial turmoil from Tokyo to Rome. When it was over, millions of hardworking Britons confronted their diminished savings, while Soros counted his gains. He had personally made nearly $2 billion on the catastrophe,” (The Shadow Party, pg. 4).

- Soros has said of this event: “I had no platform, so I deliberately [did] the sterling thing to create a platform. Obviously people care about the man who made a lot of money…my influence has continued to grow and I do have access to,” (Time Magazine, Sept 1, 1997) http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,986919,00.html

- In 1997, during the Asian financial crisis, the then Malaysian Prime Minister, Mahathir bin Mohamad, accused him of bringing down the Malaysian currency, the ringgit, through his trading activities. In Thailand he was branded an “economic war criminal” who “sucks the blood from the people”. http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/movers_a...

I for one am never going away because I learned people like him ^^ exist. I don't have billions to fund organizations that want to deliberately collapse my country and "rebuild it" to fit their world view. But, I do have a voice.

And, I am no longer silent.
September 16, 2011 2:18:26 PM

chunkymonster said:
I totally agree that education is a key component to pulling people out of poverty but not sure that a college education is necessary to reach that goal. I think that a vocational education would be far more beneficial than another BA, BS, or MBA competing for jobs in the marketplace.

Personally, I am an advocate of public Vocational High Schools (I'm talking about public vocational high schools, NOT ITT Tech, Lincoln Tech, or other such for-profit technical diploma mills) and the Adult Education programs they offer. Public Vocational High Schools and Adult Education programs have the excellent potential to teach someone actual skills that can be easily injected into the job market. Regardless of the economy there will always be a certain level of demand for auto mechanics, electricians, carpenters, welders, chefs, nurses aids, HVAC technicians, electronics technicians, etc. Public Vocational High Schools are often overlooked within the educational system as an educational alternative, which is a shame because they already have the facilities, teaching staff, the tax payer funding, job placement programs, and are adept by design at providing the skills that many employers can put to work immediately. Given the existing infrastructure of Vocational High Schools, the Adult Education programs are very affordable and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a tax payer who would not support their dollars being used to subsidize a welfare recipient's vocational education. Also, a vocational education does not preclude the students ability to continue on to college and receive a "higher education".


I agree ... we have a very strong vocational educational system in place here with a decent quality framework (AQTF) and it is nested between high school and university.

We are funded reasonably well thanks.

Quality or level of education is a strong predictor of future financial wealth and health ... or I shoudl say ... there is a strong correlation.
September 16, 2011 5:47:35 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
Yes, those would be the George Soros funded organizations. Media Matters, MoveOn.org, The Tides Foundation, The Apollo Institute, et al.


Right only the democratic party has think tanks that lobby media to promote their world view......

The republicans have too much morals and ethics that prevent them from engaging in any sort of propagandizing the populace type of activities....


this is the last thread of that i will write in in which you are a participant of because I refuse to be someone who pads your forum statistics. I will not contribute to your paycheck anymore.

good day sir.
September 16, 2011 5:55:04 PM

Ive always thought that education would be the best long term solution. America cant be a nation of button pushers working for a 1$ a day. We need highly trained educated masses that compete with the sheer numbers of China.

Start now and in 20 years we could have world class doctors and physicists. Instead of the best fast food in the world.
September 16, 2011 6:24:04 PM

asven1 said:
Right only the democratic party has think tanks that lobby media to promote their world view......

The republicans have too much morals and ethics that prevent them from engaging in any sort of propagandizing the populace type of activities....


this is the last thread of that i will write in in which you are a participant of because I refuse to be someone who pads your forum statistics. I will not contribute to your paycheck anymore.

good day sir.



I never said they (the Republicans) didn't. You're delusional.

You contribute nothing to my paycheck unless you run one of the plants my company services.

bye, see ya, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
September 16, 2011 6:50:24 PM

Another user ostracized by oldman. If you keep this up you'll turn this place into your own personal blog.
September 16, 2011 7:41:37 PM

the user was not ostricized , simply educated with things he/she did NOT want to hear ..there is a big difference ..between being pushed out, and walking out on your own because you dont like it. interesing that this follows replies about Education.

Education is DEFINITELY Key too , the problem is that imho , most people dont seem to understand the they can Educate themselves, there are no armed guards stopping you from going to the library and reading a book ..personally I blame the Media and its terrible influence on the young minds today ( if only MTV and Rappers sang about going to school , working hard, paying the mortgage, and making sure you got health insurance BEFORE you get the Rims and the Stereo as much they talk about Rims, and having a stereo that goes to 11 (its one louder) ..then geuss what all the kids would be doing, for some reason , people seem to do whatever the Media tells them is 'cool' ..if only it were 'cool' to have a great Science Project for school ; but no that's for 'geeks' right ? if only it 'cool' to be independant and self-reliant ..but no its 'cool' to a part of some social group (like a gang even?) ..or if the Media preached about how you are just fine in the clothes you are wearing , or thats its perfectly ok to have Zits, (only normal and natural after all) ..I think self-esteem is a big factor here as well, though many may not see it or want to admit it. I used to think that I was 'deprived' and really missing out , because we had no TV till I was a teenager, and still no cableTV or MTV ever ..now that I am older ..I thank God everyday that I was forced to walk to the Library and read Books for entertainment.
But again Education is not just having money to pay for College, and Most of the time you can educate yourself. and the more you study and learn, the more likely you are to maybe even get a scholarship or a grant to pay for that college. though I would still argue that having a degree is not necessarily proof that one is smart, nor being a dropout means that you are stupid. But I cannot see any drawbacks from learning more (even from those differing opinions and facts and research than what you have) ...

"I may disagree completely with what you say , but I will fight to death for your RIGHT to say it"

"Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but TEACH him how to fish, and he can feed himself for the rest of his life"
September 16, 2011 8:02:24 PM

Lol I actually kinda like the ring of "Educated with things they didn't want to hear"

But seriously that's BS. I'm sure the blaze has a forum, or maybe you can go troll Faux news. I don't care.
September 16, 2011 8:09:56 PM

Gulli , while yes there is a certain amount of 'authoritarian capitalism' going on in China ..the Primary point is that several generations of Chinese made huge Sacrfices , so thought they can now enjoy (Mainly PAYING OFF THEIR DEBT, I cannot stress this enough) . If sheer numbers were the main factor of Economic power , then India China, the Muslim world, South America, and a hell of a lot more other countries would have surpassed the US a long time ago..China is (as is the rest of the developing world enjoying HUGE gains from the Innovation, Creativity and Investments of the American people ..for example, cell phones, China and Brazil are going from NO phone at all , straight to enjoying Cell Phones, ..transportation infrastructure, Computers, a number of factors , that were innovated and pioneered (and had the expense of R&D, and implementation) that the rest of world simply gets to jump on the bandwagon enjoy, this goes also developments in Agriculture and Medicine, ..China goes from No Cars and Trains, to having fuel efficient cars and electrmagnetic rails, (without having to suffer the monetary or real -world experience of actually developing them) ..take for example 'Big Pharma' ..drugs that save lives everyday, some of these drugs cost Billions of Dollars and Decades of research to develop ..and are now available to China etc ..
China maintains the Death Penalty for a LOT of things ..from dealing drugs , to simply speaking out against the Gov't ..speaking of which (you should prolly know and understand the history behind this and the involvement of say the British and Dutch and French govt's and the relationship between China and other Asian nations (formerly European colonies) and their stance on the Death penalty and drugs..wink, wink, nudge, nudge, ) ..considering some estimates say that while a Colony of Europe, as many as 1 in 3 Chinese were addcited Opium. but I digress , China and the rest of the world are making HUGE gains and enjoying the benefits of the Exceptional American 'experience' we'll call it.
September 16, 2011 8:49:45 PM

Real quick before I leave for the weekend.

OldmanGamer has 20 Open threads on the main page (17 Politically motivated/rubbish -Quick Count-)

EVERYONE ELSE combined has 17

September 16, 2011 9:52:38 PM

wanamingo said:
Real quick before I leave for the weekend.

OldmanGamer has 20 Open threads on the main page (17 Politically motivated/rubbish -Quick Count-)

EVERYONE ELSE combined has 17



Your point is?
!