No nv25?

HolyGrenade · Apr 28, 2001

Reports still unconfirmed by nVidia say that they are likely to drop the nv25 and jump directly from the nv20 to the nv30. Now, thats what I like to see. Technology moving fast!

This chip will have several of the technology acquired from 3DFX and Gigapixel. The ex-sgi and 3dfx staff have been working towards this card. So, it may be a little different from the previous of the GeForce Cards. Some of the features in this card will be specific to DirectX 9.

This move is in response to ATI accelerating the Radeon 2 development. The Radeon2 is claimed to be superior to the GeForce 3 in terms of both features and performance. They did however say the samething about the Radeon compared to the GeForce range. So, we'll have to wait and see.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

Guest · Apr 28, 2001

maybe the new kyro have something to do with that !
they start to see the potencial of deferred rendering...
they could use brute force with inteligent rendering and getting with this a killer 3d card...

the problem is that there are others with more experience with deferred rendering (imagination), and when these radeon 2 and geforce 4 arrive into the market we might see another one that could ruin the party ...

Edited by powervr2 on 04/28/01 01:37 PM.

HolyGrenade · Apr 28, 2001

nVidia have 40 people from SGI who also have been working Tile based rendering of their own. And I don't think the Kyro 2 had anything to do with the nv25 being dropped.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

Guest · Apr 28, 2001

I am not saying that they see it as a threat against nv25 (a threat against geforce 2 gts and mx maybe), but they might finnaly realize the potencial of deferred rendering...

the problem is that there are many patents with Kyro guys so they will have to invent others implementations of deferred rendering...

noko · Apr 28, 2001

Do you know if collision detection can be done on the chip or will be vice the cpu? Since collision detection takes up allot of cpu cycles when implemented in a game, really limiting interaction with objects as in picking them up and freely examining them. In other words a more interactive virtual reality could take place if better collision detection was available.

Guest · Apr 28, 2001

they could offload even more the cpu ?
hey, why not throw away the cpu ?

Edited by powervr2 on 04/28/01 02:14 PM.

noko · Apr 28, 2001

Why even have 3d graphics cards? The cpu can do everything heh? Kyro2 must be sheer overkill unloading the cpu in the few things that it can do.

Guest · Apr 28, 2001

I was not saying that...

It was only a joke...
I was not refering anything based on kyro 2

but because you mentioned it
"The cpu can do everything heh? Kyro2 must be sheer overkill unloading the cpu in the few things that it can do."

if few things means that it can beat radeon ddr and geforce 2 gts on most benchamrk then yap it's few things!Edited by powervr2 on 04/28/01 03:56 PM.

HolyGrenade · Apr 28, 2001

This is an interesting point. When nVidia said that the nv20 will be able to do spline tesselation, I thought it will also be performing the collision detection. Instead it seems like the CPU will have to do that somehow.

Doing collision detection before tesselation is like getting a horse to push a cart instead of pulling it, i.e. it will be difficult but it can be done. I thought the nv20 will have Collision detection onboard, but it does not look like it.

So, I cannot tell you for sure if the nv30 will have collision detection, but it would make sense to include it. I hope it does include it, as it will be the first step towards a full physics engine on the GPU. If it does include it, then a lot of the AGP bandwidth will be freed up, as more and more people will start using the onboard tesselation.

As this chip will be using a lot of the acquired technology, as well as the technology developed by the acquired staff, it is likely to have tile based rendering. The card is also likely to have full phong shading, which should produce much better visuals than the garaud used in current level of cards.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

rcf84 · Apr 28, 2001

Well nvidia dropped the nv25 cuz of the ATi r200 "radeon 2". The card could blow away nvidia. ATi will have a Q3 release not Q4. Radeon 2 will use 256-bit DDR sdram at 300mhz. HyperZ greatly improved with a from of Tile Based Rendering with all the Directx 8 features and some directx 9 features. Nividia is scared straight. ATi and PowerVR gotta kill Nnidia. SNAP is broken.

Northwood P4 + i845(brookdale)+ 200mhz DDR-SDRAM + ATi Radeon 2 = Dream Team

HolyGrenade · Apr 28, 2001

You should know by now that games manufacturers don't utilise the GPU to its maximum potential to keep from offending the humble users without a t&l capable card.

If you really want to compare a GPU with a CPU, try running the treemark on the platforms. and see the results.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

HolyGrenade · Apr 28, 2001

Northwood P4 + i845(brookdale)+ 200mhz DDR-SDRAM + ATi Radeon 2 = Dream Team

Incorrect!

AMD Thoroughbred + nVidia Crush + DDR2100 + LMA + LDT + nv30 = Dream Team.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

noko · Apr 28, 2001

I was just kidding with yu too. Don't take my comments so serious. The Kryo II should make a few people eyes wet.

Guest · Apr 28, 2001

Northwood P4 + i845(brookdale)+ 200mhz DDR-SDRAM + ATi Radeon 2 = Dream Team

Incorrect!

AMD Thoroughbred + nVidia Crush + DDR2100 + LMA + LDT + nv30 = Dream Team.

Why bother? They aren't even out yet and we don't even know how they will perform. We can only hope that the nv30 isn't just a geforce2 with a bad attempt at bandwidth saving and some eye candy. Give me more than that for $500 nvidia!

rcf84 · Apr 28, 2001

the thing is the northwood goes up to 6ghz there reporting. the intel i845 will blow away the nvidia crap chipset. Faster and better DDR-sdram and QDR-sdram will come out with northwood 200mhz +. The 400fsb is tons of bandwith and i hear of a 533mhz fsb to come with it. Radeon2 will crush the Geforce3 well the R400 will crush the nv30. So ill stick to my setup which is much better.

Northwood P4 + i845(brookdale)+ 200mhz DDR-SDRAM + ATi Radeon 2 = Dream Team

HolyGrenade · Apr 28, 2001

R U trying to tell me brookdale will have better bandwidth than the crush equiped with LDT+LMA?

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

HolyGrenade · Apr 28, 2001

Even the GeForce 3(nv20) is way more than the GeForce 2 series. It is a functional upgrade. The nv25 was supposed to be a performance upgrade to the nv20, like the nv15 was to nv10. The nv30 will be another Functional upgrade.

I do agree their stuff is kinda expensive. Motherboards based on the Crush are only about £120 including the nv17 onboard Graphics Chipset which will have a direct CPU path via the LMA architecture. You have to agree that is really good. It will be available in Q4. The nv30 will probable be out in Q1 2002.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

noko · Apr 29, 2001

You may find some of this interesting and informative, warning some of it is math intensive:

This will give good insight into the upcoming technology that will be incorporated into graphics cards with amazing tools for programmers to use.

<A HREF="http://www.ati.com/na/pages/resource_centre/dev_rel/CurvedPNTriangles.pdf" target="_new">http://www.ati.com/na/pages/resource_centre/dev_rel/CurvedPNTriangles.pdf</A>

A presentation slide of the above term paper
<A HREF="http://www.ati.com/na/pages/resource_centre/dev_rel/gdc/CurvedPNTrianglesGDC01.PDF" target="_new">http://www.ati.com/na/pages/resource_centre/dev_rel/gdc/CurvedPNTrianglesGDC01.PDF</A>

Vertex Shading with Direct3D and OpenGL: (Also a basic break down of the DX8 3d Pipeline. The fur composition section is interesting.)

<A HREF="http://www.ati.com/na/pages/resource_centre/dev_rel/gdc/ATIGDC2001Vertex.pdf" target="_new">http://www.ati.com/na/pages/resource_centre/dev_rel/gdc/ATIGDC2001Vertex.pdf</A>

Edited by noko on 04/28/01 05:14 PM.

HolyGrenade · Apr 29, 2001

Kewl! thanx! i'll have a peek at them at my convenience. They shouldn't or rather better not seem difficult, cos I am attempting to learn 3D Games development.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

noko · Apr 29, 2001

The DX8 and OpenGL API should take care of most of the technical end without burdening the Developer to much.

HolyGrenade · Apr 29, 2001

Do you know how much the Radeon 2 will cost? Also, How much is the Kyro III likely to cost?

What will be interesting is all three chipsets (nv30, np2/3, r200) are likely have fixed and programmable GPU's with Tile based differed renderring developed by their own people (not licensed from someone else), who will implement the features best? Who will give the best performance? who will give the best quality? Who will give more for the buck?

The best thing is that developers will have some good common features to work towards. As for the new features for each of the chipsets, we'll just have to wait and see.

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

noko · Apr 29, 2001

ATI normally prices their stuff competitively to the competition. Usually a little bit lower initially. Nvidia should have an update to the GF3 by Quarter 4 if the Radeon 2 comes out then. I hope it will be available sooner.

rcf84 · Apr 29, 2001

yes, im staying that. I wouldn't be surprized if i saw intergrated ATi graphic core on i845 chipset. Well PC100 sdram is cheap as hell 256mb stick for $200 or around there. So brookdale is at first with PC100 only, heck i have 1gb of PC100. So Northwood is going to kick A$$.

Northwood P4 + i845(brookdale)+ 1gb PC100 SDRAM + SCSI3 640 +ATi Radeon 2 = Dream Team

HolyGrenade · Apr 29, 2001

Could you tell me what some of the directX 9 features of the Radeon 2 might be?Also, directX 9 will not be out for a while. how will those features be used? Couldn't the price of the card be kept lowerby not including those features?

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

noko · Apr 30, 2001

Looks like one of the features will be N-Patches. A simple way of using a simple polygon (Triangular) object but adding a significant amount of enhancement that makes it appear as if the object is very high quality with a high number of polygons. Allowing developers to quickly design simple objects with existing modellers and techniques but having a superior complex look. Also significantly reducing the overhead of rendering any object in real time because of the radically reduced number of polygons needed, this feature will be combined with vertex shaders. A software N-Patch extension from ATI is already available for 3dsmax users to use to get a feel for the effectiveness of N-Patches.

<A HREF="http://www.ati.com/na/pages/resource_centre/dev_rel/news_spring2001/april2001.html" target="_new">http://www.ati.com/na/pages/resource_centre/dev_rel/news_spring2001/april2001.html</A>

Edited by noko on 04/29/01 09:18 PM.

No nv25?

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