Kyro 2

[SammyBoy]

Okay, here's the thing. I currently purchased Conquest: Frontier Wars, and High Heat 2002. My problem: I have a Voodoo3 in my AMD machine (everything else is near bleeding edge) and at random times, without warning, the video will freeze and the audio with do a 1 sec. loop. The only constant is that both of these games are new and that I have DirectX 8 installed because of that. So, since these problems vanished on my bro's AMD machine when he got a GeForce3, I figure it's my video card.

Anyway, so now I'm stuck. I have a car in need of repair (around 300-500), tuition, and biils to pay off, so I have limited funds for a card. Therefore, I have been looking at the Kyro 2 as a solution. It has good fps, but I am unaware of compatibility issues (with certain games or systems) and if the card, which isn't really DX8 based, would still exhibit the same problems as my Voodoo3. Also, is there much difference between the 32MB version and the 64MB version? And, other than the Hercules Prophet 4000 and 4500, has anyone heard of an Apollo Kyro 2 card (also called Prophet 4000 and 4500.)

One more thing. Since the GeForce2 GTS and Pro are older, would I experience the same issues that I have with my Voodoo3? And since the Kyro2 is faster in some cases, cheaper, and newer, are they even worth buying anymore? Thanks in advance.

-SammyBoy

 

[Arbee]

The Kyro (Power VR) family and the Geforce (or Radeon/Voodoo/everything else) family are radically different in the way the image is rendered. Therefore it brings aditional complexity to the driver issue.

Despite being older, the GeForce 2 doesn't use older technology than the Kyro. Imagination Technologies were a bit late in implementing their solution.

This doesn't mean that Kyro is a bad solution - probably is has the best "bang for the buck" of todays cards, and makes a good stop gap card while waiting for a more performing solution but:
-Consider only the 4500 model (the difference isn't only the 32 extra MB but also core speed);
-Check for performance and incompatibilities with the games you want to run;
-Do a price comparison with the Geforce models (I really don't know todays price levels).

But before you buy anything, borrow your brother's GF3 just to check if your problem arises from the video card.

How terrible is wisdom when it brings no profit to the wise

 

[phsstpok]

Freezing can be caused by a video card overheating, video driver problems, chipset driver problems, BIOS problems, and sound card problems.

What motherboard are you using? Do you have the latest chipset drivers installed? How about the latest official BIOS?.

You can test a sound card issues by simply removing it and retesting.

Heat issues can be tested by opening the case and using a room fan to blow in extra air.

Although 3DFX is gone there are still people supporting their video cards with new drivers. Try this link.

<A HREF="http://www.gamers-ammo.com/" target="_new">http://www.gamers-ammo.com/</A> <b>(update: Gamers-ammo just went down. There's now a note stating they will be down for a day or two with new design underway).</b>

It might be worth trying these drivers but considering the situation new drivers should be treated as Betas. They may fix some problems but create new ones.

Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by phsstpok on 08/26/01 03:23 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[SammyBoy]

Well, what I have is a Athlon 1200 C, a7a266 with the 1006 BIOS (latest, and the problems happend with the 1004 BIOS as well), and Omega Voodoo3/4/5 drivers (w/ DX8 support), and I had these problems with the latest 3Dfx official driver as well. I also have a SBLive! card with latest drivers, and Win98SE, updated completely. As to cooling, it might be the problem, but since I am not overclocking my machine at all, and I have an Antec 830 (nice, big, good airflow) and other cooling devices, I can't see that being a problem. Now, like I said, my bro, who has a cramped, poor airflow case, with a 1GHz B athlon, an A7V-VM board, and XP Game Theater sound card, I would be lead to believe that it was either overheating, or the card itself. But, my bro now has a GeForce3 in that case, and has not had a single problem. Therefore, I would think it's the board. The only constants between the two was the video card, and an Asus board.

Now, I'd love to get a hold of the GeForce3, but I'd have to pry it out of my brother's cold, dead hands. But, with his system, he hasn't had the same problems since he got rid of the Voodoo3. Update: I just watched my bro play through two homerun derbys in High Heat 2K2, without a freeze, where before hand, I couldn't get through one. So, that almost seals the deal, it's the voodoo3. Now, I need to know if a Kyro II is the way to go, or if I should get a GTS or Pro. Given the prices are near identical (10-50 difference depending on vendor), I'm looking for the best bang for the buck, and the ability to shore up my system until I can upgrade to a bleeding edge video card. Thanks

-SammyBoy

 

[phsstpok]

You did not say if you loaded the chipset drivers for your motherboard. I recommend you do this if you haven't already done so.

The two tests I suggested earlier are easy to do so I still suggest that you try them before you spend money.

You may be right and the Voodoo3 may be at fault but it might just be overheating. Ordinary case cooling won't help a video card much.

A new video card will not guarantee that your problem will go away. Search these boards for the keyword "freeze" in conjunction with the keyword "3d". You will find people with Radeons, Kyro II's, Geforces 256's, MX's, GTS's, Ultras, and 3's having this kind of problem. There is usually a solution other than buying a new video card.

On the other hand, you will certainly enjoy a newer video card which will be faster and will have 32-bit color.

Good luck.


Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.

 

[madmike]

For what it's worth: I had a 3D Prophet 4500 for one day. I had read good reviews, and figured it was alot less costly than the GF3. I had multiple problems with it - software compatibility (including one game that shipped with the card), wierd screen artifacts, etc. I decided it wasn't worth wasting my time with it. I got a refund and ordered the GeForce3 that I really wanted.

I haven't heard of these problems from anyone else, but if you asked me, I'd say go for the best GeForce2 you can afford.

BTW - I think the other guys are right. Try to determine if your vid card is really the problem before you replace it.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by MadMike on 08/26/01 11:11 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[SammyBoy]

Okay, here's another update. I went through and updated ever driver I could, and also tested for overheating. I couldn't test the sound card, since the game would not load without one. Now, after all this testing, I still believe that there is a problem with the voodoo3 and DX8 games. I can run Black and White for hours, max settings, without a problem (which makes me think it's a driver/DX8 conflict). Also, Conquest: Frontier Wars and High Heat 2K2 are my only two games that require DX8, and the only two that freeze. Now, since that happened on my brother's system as well when he had the Voodoo3, and has not happened anymore since he got a GeForce3, I also would think that points to a Voodoo3/DX8 problem, as opposed to overheating, sound card issues, or chipset problems (my bro had an Asus A7V-VM mb, which is Via, and I have an A7A266, an ALi). So, I can't see how my problems could be anything but my card's inability to correctly process DX8 instructions, causing it to freeze, and the system to hang.

So, now that I've satisfied myself that it is my vid card, can anyone out there recommend a good card that is going to run me less than 125-150, but still allow me to enjoy gaming on high settings and be usable enough for the next 6-9 months? I think I want a Kyro II, but I've heard so many mixed things about them, I would like to hear from people who own one right now.

-SammyBoy

 

[phsstpok]

Radeon LE is great interim video card (better with the Z-buffer hack). At $73 (shipping included) from <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com" target="_new">http://www.newegg.com</A> it's also dirt cheap for what you get. The original Geforce 2 GTS, now below $100 (internet pricing), is also a bargain and probably a better choice than MX cards.

Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.

 

[SammyBoy]

Okay, I know I can get the Radeon hack on Anandtech, but my question then is this: I've heard lately that ATI's drivers haven't been all that great, and that there are many issues that come up with those drivers, so is it even worth it to get a Radeon VE card, or should I stick to Nvidia? Also, I really would like to know the opinion of people who own and use the Kyro II. That right now is my card of choice, mainly because I like high res and color depth, and if I can get near Ultra performance at those levels without having to spend 100 extra, I'm all for it. And, in regard to Kyro II, does not having a hardware T&L engine really affect real-world performance much, and will it be much of a factor in the next 6-9 months? Thanks!

-SammyBoy

 

[phsstpok]

I would not buy a Radeon VE. I recommended a Radeon LE.

As for the Kyro II, the poor 3DMark2001 scores hint at problems but who knows how much of an issue it will be for the next 6 to 9 months.


Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.

 

[Rubberbband]

I tried a Radeon 64Mb DDR VIVO for two weeks on my system (AMD Duron 700, Gigabyte Mobo with a VIA Chipset) and suffered through all kinds of problems/glitches. Then i got a Prophet 4500 64Mb Kyro II it worked flawlessly with every game I had but Nascar 4. I now run a Geforce 2 MX 400 64Mb from Vision Tek. It's a cheaper card but it performs reasonably well without any glitches...
Another reason I got rid of the Kyro II is that it doesn't support T&L and alot of games are incorporating that into their graphics.
Later!

 

[SammyBoy]

Well, I really wouldn't want to get an MX, mainly because I think that it doesn't offer much for the price. That is another reason why I am looking at the Kyro II. So, since you owned one, what about Nascar 4 didn't work right?

-SammyBoy

 

[Rubberbband]

It wouldn't run Nascar 4 in Open GL. It ran fine in Direct 3D. Other games I've run without a problem are:Motox Madness2, Offroad, Hitman, Half Life (Op-For and Blue Shift although Blue Shift wouldn't run in Open Gl), NFS Porshe Unleashed...

As for the price I paid #229 Cdn for the Kyro and $199 for the MX 400 (The Geforce has S-Video out the Kyro didn't).

I was happy with the prophet but the lack of T & L support is what made me shy away. Check out the following address to see some of the problems Prophet 4500 owners are experiencing and then make your choice.

http://forum.hercules.com/

 

[Palpatine]

I had Kyro II for two months and i was disappointed. Performance wasnt that great as in the reviews or previews of the cards and it had problems with many games. Also the T&L is a big problems as many games will play alot better with it. I replaced kyro II (hercules 4500) with a Radeon 32SDR (the LE version is not sold in Europe) and o/c it to 185/185 with no artifacts or tearing at all. The o/c experiment continues and i think i can get it to 190/190 (stock speeds were 160/160). The 3dmark 2000 are equal to my Kyro II and the 2001 are 45% higher with my radeon. And let's not speak about 2d quality and DVD support.
My advise is go with the Radeon 32MB DDR LE version, enable hyperZ and o/c it until it melts!!!!

Palpatine

 

[SammyBoy]

Well, I've bit the bullet, and have decided to get a Kryo II. My reason is this: For all vid cards out there, I've heard stories of happiness and horror. The games I am currently playing are not all that GPU intensive, so in reality, my Voodoo3 is fine. But since it's older, no longer supported, and unable to process DX8 instructions properly, I need a new one. The lack of a hardware T&L doesn't bother me much, since, again, most games I play are very easy on the GPU, and my 1.2GHz Athlon and 512MB DDR should be able to absorb much of the hit I'll take when a game calls for T&L.

In the future, I will get a GeForce3, Radeon 8500, the Kyro III, or whatever deserves the 250-350 that I will plunk down. For now, though, I have limited funds, and to me, it seems that the Kyro II offers the best bang for my buck. I may regret it later, but that's the chance you take when you get anything for the computer. I'm betting on the fact that the Hercules company will continue the high quality shown in the Game Theater and other products and will continue with the Prophet 4500. If not, I can simply send it back, take the restocking charge, and find something else to tide me over until I can afford a real video card.

Thank you all for your suggestions, I will be posting my results when they come in. BTW, the card cost me $90, plus $15 S&H, since I wanted the card here quickly. Considering the same card would have cost me $175 at the local Best Buy, I feel that it was worth the extra money to ship it that way.

-SammyBoy

 

[phsstpok]

Good luck with your choice. I for one am curious how well the card works with Black & White.

So you don't get irritated trying to get AGP 4X to work note the following excerpt from the Hercules 4500 FAQ.

<i>What AGP modes do the Prophet 4000XT/Prophet 4500 support?


Date: 2001-08-14
Product:
- Hercules 3D Prophet 4000XT
- Hercules 3D Prophet 4500 64MB
- Hercules 3D Prophet 4500 TV/Out


The Prophet 4000XT series support up to AGP 4x mode. The Prophet 4500 series support up to AGP 2x mode. </i>"

Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.

 

[SammyBoy]

Yeah, I noticed the AGP 4X vs. 2X thing myself. It doesn't really bother me much, since this is a temporary solution. And as to Black and White, what about it makes you wonder about it's possible performance? I have heard that OpenGL isn't all that good on the KyroII, and does Black and White use OpenGL? I dunno... won't really bother me much, since I don't play it much anymore (or anything else for that matter.) Thanks you your advice though.

-SammyBoy

 

[phsstpok]

No, I have no specific concerns about the Kyro II and the game Black & White. I just haven't picked up the game because I had concerns that my Geforce256 SDR is not up to the task. Since, I too have been thinking about getting a temporary video card, I was merely wondering how well the Kyro II handles the game.

I do have one concern about the Kyro II. Why does it have such poor performance in 3DMark2001? I know the old argument. 3DMark2001 is only a benchmark program. Yet, the program is designed to test video hardware and the Kyro II performs poorly. I want to know the reason why before I purchase one. I was waiting to see if DX 8.1 or newer Kyro drivers fixes the problem. Alternatively, if I learned that Max Payne, which uses the same graphics engine as 3DMark2001, performs well with the Kyro II then that would put me at ease.

The only game (that I know of) that definitely doesn't work well with the Kyro II is Grand Prix 3. According to the Hercules 4500 FAQ there is no work-around. I forget the details. GP4 will not have the problem, whatever it is.

I've been leaning toward a Radeon LE, myself, but I am still holding on with my Geforce256. If I can hold on a little longer then I probably won't need an interim card at all.

I'm hoping the Geforce3 MX is a real product, is released soon, and is also reasonably priced.

Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.

 

[SammyBoy]

I noticed that as well in the reviews I read. Most chalked it up to the software-based T&L. I also noticed that at increased color depth and res, the Kyro II was able to come very close to it's competition. I think that at that point, most card reach their limit. It just shows that the Kyro II doesn't lose much as things get more strenuous. Now, as to the GeForce256 SDR, I'm not sure how that compares to the Voodoo3, but all I know is that unless things got real busy on the screen, it was able to run B&W at max settings at a 44FPS, give or take a few frames. It does chug sometimes, but that's usually when there are tons of moving, onscreen graphics. And, I can give you a report on it's performance in Max Payne, since my bro has it right now on his comp.

-SammyBoy

 

[Palpatine]

One more thing about the Kyro II: in some games that i tried it (Falcon 4.0 with the 1.09 eFalcon patch) the fps would drop to half when i used 32 color and textures, also in half when i used anisotropic and also in half when i used 4xFSAA. When i used all three together i would go from 40fps to 5 fps (1/8 performance). In my radeon stock clock i would get 58 fps and when i used anisotropic and 32 bit i would lose only about 8 fps. So the advise is dont you ever use anisotropic, the FSAA isnt that great unless you play at 800x600 and the 16 to 32 difference in performace is big. But the good thing is that it has the true 32bit thing that renders all things in 32bit and degrades it to 16 if you ask for 16bit. So the colors should be better than other cards doing 16. But why the lose is so big when you actually do 32 i dont know.

Enjoy your card
Palpatine

 

[SammyBoy]

Well, I can't understand why you'd have a drop in fps if you went to 32 colors. It seems to me that maybe there was something wrong with the system or card, or maybe Falcon 4.0 is another of those games that doesn't work right. Who knows. Thanks for the heads up though.

-SammyBoy

 

[phsstpok]

One thing I recall is the Kyro II does extremely well with higher speed processors, meaning CPU scaling is superior compared with other video cards, less of the brickwall effect. Since I only have a Duron and for the other reasons I mentioned, the Kyro II did not seem like a good choice for me but as Tbirds get cheaper and cheaper this may change.

Your opinion of how well Max Payne works with the Kyro II will be most appreciated. Thanks.

As for a Geforce256 SDR vs a VooDoo3, the Geforce is faster even with 32-bit color vs 16-bit color. Plus the Geforce has hardware T&L and plays Serious Sam very nicely. (Serious Sam is very impressive game, technically speaking. I'm amazed how it has so much action yet remains smooth even with extreme high quality. There can literally be 100 or more objects moving simultaneously. I'd love to see it with a Geforce3 at very high resolution. I can only play at 1024x768x32-bits).

Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.

 

[lhgpoobaa]

serious sam is very cool aint it?

the action mated with the very advanced graphics engine.
nice bright textures
walls that DONT go blurry as you get close (go very bumpmapped)
piles of monsters with zero slowdown
fullscreen antialiasing without much slowdown
huge play areas
multiple gravity zones! (found the red room yet?)
advanced lighting
fog
ooh yeah. gaming nirvana!
*drool*

I'll respect your comments & opinions, even if i disagree with them, Provided you display maturity.

 

[SammyBoy]

Getting Max Payne from my bro may be difficult, but I can do it. Beyond that, my Kyro II is in and functioning. So far, so good. The only problem I've had was that I have an occasional crash to the desktop, but since it's happened in a very new game (Conquest: Frontier Wars) and very old game (X-Com: UFO Defense), it could be chalked up to game bugs. Other than that, my HHB2K2 runs perfectly, and looks just as good as my bro's GeForce3, and just as smooth. I also ran 3dMark2001 and got 2424 at 1024x768, 32bit, which I don't think is too bad, considering there is no hardware T&L. All in all, it's a good card. I like it, and for the $90 I paid, well worth it.

-SammyBoy

BTW: I have yet to try Black and White, since the game is nearly unplayable without the patch, which I've been too lazy to download.

 

[Guest]

<< So, I can't see how my problems could be anything but my card's inability to correctly process DX8 instructions, causing it to freeze, and the system to hang. >>

This problem is most likely due to the voodoo3 only having 16mb of ram and therefore having to swap textures over the agp bus in texture rich games which can stale the rendering process.

<< As for the Kyro II, the poor 3DMark2001 scores hint at problems but who knows how much of an issue it will be for the next 6 to 9 months. >>

No that hints at the fact that MS messed up DX8.

<< I was happy with the prophet but the lack of T & L support is what made me shy away. >>

Thats a strange thing to do if you don't mind me saying, if your happy with the card then why get rid of it because it doesn't have HW T&L? (unless you have a VERY weak CPU in which case fair enough). The MX just doesn't have the memory bandwidth to even use that HW T&L on any decent CPU at 1024x768x32.

<< I had Kyro II for two months and i was disappointed. Performance wasnt that great as in the reviews or previews of the cards and it had problems with many games. Also the T&L is a big problems as many games will play alot better with it. I replaced kyro II (hercules 4500) with a Radeon 32SDR (the LE version is not sold in Europe) and o/c it to 185/185 with no artifacts or tearing at all. The o/c experiment continues and i think i can get it to 190/190 (stock speeds were 160/160). The 3dmark 2000 are equal to my Kyro II and the 2001 are 45% higher with my radeon. And let's not speak about 2d quality and DVD support.
My advise is go with the Radeon 32MB DDR LE version, enable hyperZ and o/c it until it melts!!!! >>

Yep at this point the Radeon is faster in a synthetic benchmark but what about games???

<< I do have one concern about the Kyro II. Why does it have such poor performance in 3DMark2001? I know the old argument. 3DMark2001 is only a benchmark program. Yet, the program is designed to test video hardware and the Kyro II performs poorly. I want to know the reason why before I purchase one. I was waiting to see if DX 8.1 or newer Kyro drivers fixes the problem. Alternatively, if I learned that Max Payne, which uses the same graphics engine as 3DMark2001, performs well with the Kyro II then that would put me at ease. >>

Kyro doesn't do well with 3Dmark2001 because when MS made DX8 only Kyro was out there (Kyro II wasn't out then) which was very low key and so when MS included Kyro in DX8 they didn't even have a Kyro to test so they just disabled certain features incase Kyro didn't support them. One of those features was rendering into textures. This feature is used heavily in the 3dmark2001 high detail tests for dynamic shadows. Kyro does actually support this feature in hardware (as does most cards out there today) but because MS disabled it for Kyro in DX8 and 3dmark2001 is a DX8 app anything using rendering into textures needs to be rendered in software by the system CPU instead of being rendering by Kyro (which obviously would be significantly faster, thats why Kyro seems overly CPU intensive in 3dmark2001). This problem has been fixed in a beta of DX8.1 and as a result the high detail tests of 3dmark2001 are now much improved while using this beta of DX8.1 (for instance on my system the car chase test has gone from 6fps to 20fps when going from the official DX8 to the beta DX8.1). However the beta of DX8.1, while fixing rendering into textures, actually introduced a bug to 3dmark2001 for Kyro which messes up the high detail lobby test so that all of the scene is visible (even overdraw which would normally not be rendered by Kyro). This problem almost completely negates the overall speed up that DX8.1 gives for Kyro as the high detail lobby test is slower then ever because its totally fillrate limited because of having to render everything in that test (no other tests or games are effected by this bug though). This problem is already fixed in a new version of 3dmark2001 but this version has not been released to the public yet.

<< In my radeon stock clock i would get 58 fps and when i used anisotropic and 32 bit i would lose only about 8 fps. >>

What do you get when you use anisotropic filtering together with 4xFSAA on the Radeon though? I bet the Radeon loses more then half its speed when using 4xFSAA, I do admit though that anisotropic filtering is a weak point of Kyro and I don't use it much myself but FSAA has a lesser hit then cards like the Radeon. Although I do think the Radeon is a good card.