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PCI graphics cards on Dimension 3000

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Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 2, 2005 5:08:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

My dad, a great guy sometimes overwhelmed by computers, went out and
replaced my broken down 2 gig P4 system with 3GHz Dimension 3000.
Unfortunately, it looks like the new machine has less potential for
graphics upgrade than the machine it replaced - itself a 3.5 year old
machine - lacking both the new PCI-e slot or the old AGP slot. This
isn't a post about the wisdom of Dell's restrictive MoBo architecture,
or the agony of integrated graphics or sound. There's plenty of that
on usenet already.

I simply want to know if anybody's had any reasonable degree of luck
adding some high end PCI graphics card to their non AGP/PCI-e machine.
Will PCI cards provide any improvement over "Intel Extreme"? Will they
conflict with the on-board graphics set? I'm not expecting something
comparable to AGP, but I'd like to know I can exceed what I already
have.
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 3, 2005 1:36:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1117742902.763366.125820@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> My dad, a great guy sometimes overwhelmed by computers, went out and
> replaced my broken down 2 gig P4 system with 3GHz Dimension 3000.
> Unfortunately, it looks like the new machine has less potential for
> graphics upgrade than the machine it replaced - itself a 3.5 year old
> machine - lacking both the new PCI-e slot or the old AGP slot. This
> isn't a post about the wisdom of Dell's restrictive MoBo architecture,
> or the agony of integrated graphics or sound. There's plenty of that
> on usenet already.
>
> I simply want to know if anybody's had any reasonable degree of luck
> adding some high end PCI graphics card to their non AGP/PCI-e machine.
> Will PCI cards provide any improvement over "Intel Extreme"? Will they
> conflict with the on-board graphics set? I'm not expecting something
> comparable to AGP, but I'd like to know I can exceed what I already
> have.
>

Well, I run a 128MB nVidia PCI card in my 2400 and it works fine. I don't do
games, though, just did it for compatibility with Snapstream's Beyond TV.

As for Dell's wisdom, it seems spot on to me. Entry level machine at entry
level pricing.

Another option, depending on your timing, is to return the machine. You
have 21 days from the invoice date. Return it and order a 4700 or 8400.
Consider a refurb from outlet.dell.com to stay in the price range.

Tom
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 3, 2005 1:49:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

You have 21 days from invoice date to return it. Get a 4700 or better.

"FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1117742902.763366.125820@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> My dad, a great guy sometimes overwhelmed by computers, went out and
> replaced my broken down 2 gig P4 system with 3GHz Dimension 3000.
> Unfortunately, it looks like the new machine has less potential for
> graphics upgrade than the machine it replaced - itself a 3.5 year old
> machine - lacking both the new PCI-e slot or the old AGP slot. This
> isn't a post about the wisdom of Dell's restrictive MoBo architecture,
> or the agony of integrated graphics or sound. There's plenty of that
> on usenet already.
>
Related resources
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 3, 2005 3:00:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On 2 Jun 2005 13:08:22 -0700, "FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote:

>My dad, a great guy sometimes overwhelmed by computers, went out and
>replaced my broken down 2 gig P4 system with 3GHz Dimension 3000.
>Unfortunately, it looks like the new machine has less potential for
>graphics upgrade than the machine it replaced - itself a 3.5 year old
>machine - lacking both the new PCI-e slot or the old AGP slot. This
>isn't a post about the wisdom of Dell's restrictive MoBo architecture,
>or the agony of integrated graphics or sound. There's plenty of that
>on usenet already.
>
>I simply want to know if anybody's had any reasonable degree of luck
>adding some high end PCI graphics card to their non AGP/PCI-e machine.
>Will PCI cards provide any improvement over "Intel Extreme"? Will they
>conflict with the on-board graphics set? I'm not expecting something
>comparable to AGP, but I'd like to know I can exceed what I already
>have.


I installed a Nivdia PCI FX5200 128 Meg card in my Dimension 2400 for
the same reason. Not a whole lot of improvement, and in just a hair
over a year, the car by PNY with a Lifetime Guarantee is out of
warranty. The reason is that PCI stuff is obsolete as far as high
end video cards go. Send the PC back and get something with a PCI
Express Card or bus.

Bob
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 3, 2005 5:01:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Dell's restrictive MoBo architecture". Not exactly. The Dimension 3000 is a
low-end computer, so it has only on-board graphics with no AGP slot. The
Dimension 4000-series and 8000-series are more expensive and they have AGP
slots. Still, Intel's Extreme Graphics is pretty good, except for gaming.

.... Ben Myers

On 2 Jun 2005 13:08:22 -0700, "FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote:

>My dad, a great guy sometimes overwhelmed by computers, went out and
>replaced my broken down 2 gig P4 system with 3GHz Dimension 3000.
>Unfortunately, it looks like the new machine has less potential for
>graphics upgrade than the machine it replaced - itself a 3.5 year old
>machine - lacking both the new PCI-e slot or the old AGP slot. This
>isn't a post about the wisdom of Dell's restrictive MoBo architecture,
>or the agony of integrated graphics or sound. There's plenty of that
>on usenet already.
>
>I simply want to know if anybody's had any reasonable degree of luck
>adding some high end PCI graphics card to their non AGP/PCI-e machine.
>Will PCI cards provide any improvement over "Intel Extreme"? Will they
>conflict with the on-board graphics set? I'm not expecting something
>comparable to AGP, but I'd like to know I can exceed what I already
>have.
>
June 3, 2005 2:59:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

FatKat wrote:
> My dad, a great guy sometimes overwhelmed by computers, went out and
> replaced my broken down 2 gig P4 system with 3GHz Dimension 3000.
> Unfortunately, it looks like the new machine has less potential for
> graphics upgrade than the machine it replaced - itself a 3.5 year old
> machine - lacking both the new PCI-e slot or the old AGP slot. This
> isn't a post about the wisdom of Dell's restrictive MoBo architecture,
> or the agony of integrated graphics or sound. There's plenty of that
> on usenet already.
>
> I simply want to know if anybody's had any reasonable degree of luck
> adding some high end PCI graphics card to their non AGP/PCI-e machine.
> Will PCI cards provide any improvement over "Intel Extreme"? Will they
> conflict with the on-board graphics set? I'm not expecting something
> comparable to AGP, but I'd like to know I can exceed what I already
> have.
>
I have put a Radeon 7000 PCI 64 meg graphics card in my 3000 and haven't
met with a great deal of success. First off I had to install the Radeon
card in the machine but still connect the monitor up to the itegrated
onboard card to get something to display. Once i had done that I got
into device manager and disenabled the onboard graphics. Then I
connected the monitor up to the newly installed PCI card and re-booted
the pc. Upon rebooting the new Radeon card did its thing and the display
worked. Also I noticed after the reboot that the integrated garaphics
that I had disabled was now enabled and now both graphics cards are
enabled and don't conflict with each other.
I have to say though if I had the option I would return the machine and
upgrade to one that has PCIe as although the Radeon card is working it
aint working as well as it should.
Hope this helps
ricardo
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 4, 2005 3:28:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

the chaintech Geforce FX5200 128MB 128-bit DDR is an excellent 128mb
card for $70 for a pci slot.
write me if you have any specific ques about it.

i bought mine at newegg.com but also found at a few other sites.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...


i would send back that 3000 computer because for $50 more, you could get
the 4700 model with better graphic support, faster memory, and faster
hard drives!!!
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 4, 2005 3:38:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 23:28:24 -0400, Jay B <jayb@audiman.net> wrote:

>the chaintech Geforce FX5200 128MB 128-bit DDR is an excellent 128mb
>card for $70 for a pci slot.
>write me if you have any specific ques about it.
>
>i bought mine at newegg.com but also found at a few other sites.
>
>http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...
>
>
>i would send back that 3000 computer because for $50 more, you could get
>the 4700 model with better graphic support, faster memory, and faster
>hard drives!!!


The problem with a PCI bus card ( not PCI express) is that the PCI bus
has a real limiting factor on how fast you can process your graphics.
So no matter how good the card is, it will choke on the bus. Like
running a 6" water main into a piece of 1/4" copper tubing and then
into your house.

Bob
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 6, 2005 6:01:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

ricardo wrote:
> FatKat wrote:
> > My dad, a great guy sometimes overwhelmed by computers, went out and
> > replaced my broken down 2 gig P4 system with 3GHz Dimension 3000.
> > Unfortunately, it looks like the new machine has less potential for
> > graphics upgrade than the machine it replaced - itself a 3.5 year old
> > machine - lacking both the new PCI-e slot or the old AGP slot. This
> > isn't a post about the wisdom of Dell's restrictive MoBo architecture,
> > or the agony of integrated graphics or sound. There's plenty of that
> > on usenet already.
> >
> > I simply want to know if anybody's had any reasonable degree of luck
> > adding some high end PCI graphics card to their non AGP/PCI-e machine.
> > Will PCI cards provide any improvement over "Intel Extreme"? Will they
> > conflict with the on-board graphics set? I'm not expecting something
> > comparable to AGP, but I'd like to know I can exceed what I already
> > have.
> >
> I have put a Radeon 7000 PCI 64 meg graphics card in my 3000 and haven't
> met with a great deal of success.

>From what I've seen around here, you're not likely to seen any
improvement unless you use a 128 meg card. The FX 5700 LE seems to be
the card of choice according to CW. Anything less than 128 won't be
enough, while more than 128 meg won't get past the bottleneck of the
PCI bus. man, to think that a 12 meg 3DFx card was once the most I had
to look forward to.

> First off I had to install the Radeon
> card in the machine but still connect the monitor up to the itegrated
> onboard card to get something to display. Once i had done that I got
> into device manager and disenabled the onboard graphics. Then I
> connected the monitor up to the newly installed PCI card and re-booted
> the pc.

This is what I don't understand. The original 3D cards weren't
supposed to replace your existing graphics hardware - just augment it.
So instead of messing with jumper settings or mess with the device
manager, you just use a pass-through cable. When I put in my Monster
Voodoo2, it was auto-detected immediately. I thought that was the
saving grace of PCI - data-transfer would never match AGP, but what you
put in was taken in seamlessly. I would have thought that that fact
remained as true 5 years later - but then again, I'm still getting over
the fact that my brand new computer has less upgradability than the one
I got in 2001. What's next? A stereo deck with an 8-track? Cars w/o
power doors and locks?

> Upon rebooting the new Radeon card did its thing and the display
> worked. Also I noticed after the reboot that the integrated garaphics
> that I had disabled was now enabled and now both graphics cards are
> enabled and don't conflict with each other.

Which doesn't suprise me. I've got an extra sound card on my board - I
haven't got the sound to work yet, but the game port seems to function
as advertized.

> I have to say though if I had the option I would return the machine and
> upgrade to one that has PCIe as although the Radeon card is working it
> aint working as well as it should.
> Hope this helps
> ricardo

Thanks for the response. Good luck whatever you decide.
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 7, 2005 3:12:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1118091667.799433.196960@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> ricardo wrote:
>> FatKat wrote:
>> > My dad, a great guy sometimes overwhelmed by computers, went out and
>> > replaced my broken down 2 gig P4 system with 3GHz Dimension 3000.
>> > Unfortunately, it looks like the new machine has less potential for
>> > graphics upgrade than the machine it replaced - itself a 3.5 year old
>> > machine - lacking both the new PCI-e slot or the old AGP slot. This
>> > isn't a post about the wisdom of Dell's restrictive MoBo architecture,
>> > or the agony of integrated graphics or sound. There's plenty of that
>> > on usenet already.
>> >
>> > I simply want to know if anybody's had any reasonable degree of luck
>> > adding some high end PCI graphics card to their non AGP/PCI-e machine.
>> > Will PCI cards provide any improvement over "Intel Extreme"? Will they
>> > conflict with the on-board graphics set? I'm not expecting something
>> > comparable to AGP, but I'd like to know I can exceed what I already
>> > have.
>> >
>> I have put a Radeon 7000 PCI 64 meg graphics card in my 3000 and haven't
>> met with a great deal of success.
>
>>From what I've seen around here, you're not likely to seen any
> improvement unless you use a 128 meg card. The FX 5700 LE seems to be
> the card of choice according to CW. Anything less than 128 won't be
> enough, while more than 128 meg won't get past the bottleneck of the
> PCI bus. man, to think that a 12 meg 3DFx card was once the most I had
> to look forward to.
>
>> First off I had to install the Radeon
>> card in the machine but still connect the monitor up to the itegrated
>> onboard card to get something to display. Once i had done that I got
>> into device manager and disenabled the onboard graphics. Then I
>> connected the monitor up to the newly installed PCI card and re-booted
>> the pc.
>
> This is what I don't understand. The original 3D cards weren't
> supposed to replace your existing graphics hardware - just augment it.
> So instead of messing with jumper settings or mess with the device
> manager, you just use a pass-through cable. When I put in my Monster
> Voodoo2, it was auto-detected immediately. I thought that was the
> saving grace of PCI - data-transfer would never match AGP, but what you
> put in was taken in seamlessly. I would have thought that that fact
> remained as true 5 years later - but then again, I'm still getting over
> the fact that my brand new computer has less upgradability than the one
> I got in 2001. What's next? A stereo deck with an 8-track? Cars w/o
> power doors and locks?
>
>> Upon rebooting the new Radeon card did its thing and the display
>> worked. Also I noticed after the reboot that the integrated garaphics
>> that I had disabled was now enabled and now both graphics cards are
>> enabled and don't conflict with each other.
>
> Which doesn't suprise me. I've got an extra sound card on my board - I
> haven't got the sound to work yet, but the game port seems to function
> as advertized.
>
>> I have to say though if I had the option I would return the machine and
>> upgrade to one that has PCIe as although the Radeon card is working it
>> aint working as well as it should.
>> Hope this helps
>> ricardo
>
> Thanks for the response. Good luck whatever you decide.
>

I'm confused. If you have a 1999 BMW and then buy a 2005 Hyundai, then
you're going backwards with a newer car.

If you buy a Dimension 2400 or 3000, you bought a Hyundai -- perhaps
reliable transportation, but no BMW.

If you wanted a PCIe slot, then a 4700 or an 8400 or an XPS were all
available to you. Sorry you made a bad choice.

Tom
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 7, 2005 3:21:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 23:12:31 GMT, "Tom Scales" <tomtoo@softhome.net>
wrote:

>
>"FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
>news:1118091667.799433.196960@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>> ricardo wrote:
>>> FatKat wrote:
>>> > My dad, a great guy sometimes overwhelmed by computers, went out and
>>> > replaced my broken down 2 gig P4 system with 3GHz Dimension 3000.
>>> > Unfortunately, it looks like the new machine has less potential for
>>> > graphics upgrade than the machine it replaced - itself a 3.5 year old
>>> > machine - lacking both the new PCI-e slot or the old AGP slot. This
>>> > isn't a post about the wisdom of Dell's restrictive MoBo architecture,
>>> > or the agony of integrated graphics or sound. There's plenty of that
>>> > on usenet already.
>>> >
>>> > I simply want to know if anybody's had any reasonable degree of luck
>>> > adding some high end PCI graphics card to their non AGP/PCI-e machine.
>>> > Will PCI cards provide any improvement over "Intel Extreme"? Will they
>>> > conflict with the on-board graphics set? I'm not expecting something
>>> > comparable to AGP, but I'd like to know I can exceed what I already
>>> > have.
>>> >
>>> I have put a Radeon 7000 PCI 64 meg graphics card in my 3000 and haven't
>>> met with a great deal of success.
>>
>>>From what I've seen around here, you're not likely to seen any
>> improvement unless you use a 128 meg card. The FX 5700 LE seems to be
>> the card of choice according to CW. Anything less than 128 won't be
>> enough, while more than 128 meg won't get past the bottleneck of the
>> PCI bus. man, to think that a 12 meg 3DFx card was once the most I had
>> to look forward to.
>>
>>> First off I had to install the Radeon
>>> card in the machine but still connect the monitor up to the itegrated
>>> onboard card to get something to display. Once i had done that I got
>>> into device manager and disenabled the onboard graphics. Then I
>>> connected the monitor up to the newly installed PCI card and re-booted
>>> the pc.
>>
>> This is what I don't understand. The original 3D cards weren't
>> supposed to replace your existing graphics hardware - just augment it.
>> So instead of messing with jumper settings or mess with the device
>> manager, you just use a pass-through cable. When I put in my Monster
>> Voodoo2, it was auto-detected immediately. I thought that was the
>> saving grace of PCI - data-transfer would never match AGP, but what you
>> put in was taken in seamlessly. I would have thought that that fact
>> remained as true 5 years later - but then again, I'm still getting over
>> the fact that my brand new computer has less upgradability than the one
>> I got in 2001. What's next? A stereo deck with an 8-track? Cars w/o
>> power doors and locks?
>>
>>> Upon rebooting the new Radeon card did its thing and the display
>>> worked. Also I noticed after the reboot that the integrated garaphics
>>> that I had disabled was now enabled and now both graphics cards are
>>> enabled and don't conflict with each other.
>>
>> Which doesn't suprise me. I've got an extra sound card on my board - I
>> haven't got the sound to work yet, but the game port seems to function
>> as advertized.
>>
>>> I have to say though if I had the option I would return the machine and
>>> upgrade to one that has PCIe as although the Radeon card is working it
>>> aint working as well as it should.
>>> Hope this helps
>>> ricardo
>>
>> Thanks for the response. Good luck whatever you decide.
>>
>
>I'm confused. If you have a 1999 BMW and then buy a 2005 Hyundai, then
>you're going backwards with a newer car.
>
>If you buy a Dimension 2400 or 3000, you bought a Hyundai -- perhaps
>reliable transportation, but no BMW.
>
>If you wanted a PCIe slot, then a 4700 or an 8400 or an XPS were all
>available to you. Sorry you made a bad choice.
>
>Tom
>

One difference in the Hyundai vs BMW, the BMW is much more likely to
break down and need service.... Per extensive Consumer reports poll
of owners of the 2 vehicle brands.
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 7, 2005 4:02:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Capt Bob" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:2im9a11d6bc67iubnfn2cb1kp5u7duu9rj@4ax.com...

> One difference in the Hyundai vs BMW, the BMW is much more likely to
> break down and need service.... Per extensive Consumer reports poll
> of owners of the 2 vehicle brands.

Perhaps, although my 1999 BMW has been pretty reliable.
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 7, 2005 6:05:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Tom Scales wrote:
> "FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:1118091667.799433.196960@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > ricardo wrote:
> >> FatKat wrote:
> >> > My dad, a great guy sometimes overwhelmed by computers, went out and
> >> > replaced my broken down 2 gig P4 system with 3GHz Dimension 3000.
> >> > Unfortunately, it looks like the new machine has less potential for
> >> > graphics upgrade than the machine it replaced - itself a 3.5 year old
> >> > machine - lacking both the new PCI-e slot or the old AGP slot. This
> >> > isn't a post about the wisdom of Dell's restrictive MoBo architecture,
> >> > or the agony of integrated graphics or sound. There's plenty of that
> >> > on usenet already.
> >> >
> >> > I simply want to know if anybody's had any reasonable degree of luck
> >> > adding some high end PCI graphics card to their non AGP/PCI-e machine.
> >> > Will PCI cards provide any improvement over "Intel Extreme"? Will they
> >> > conflict with the on-board graphics set? I'm not expecting something
> >> > comparable to AGP, but I'd like to know I can exceed what I already
> >> > have.
> >> >
> >> I have put a Radeon 7000 PCI 64 meg graphics card in my 3000 and haven't
> >> met with a great deal of success.
> >
> >>From what I've seen around here, you're not likely to seen any
> > improvement unless you use a 128 meg card. The FX 5700 LE seems to be
> > the card of choice according to CW. Anything less than 128 won't be
> > enough, while more than 128 meg won't get past the bottleneck of the
> > PCI bus. man, to think that a 12 meg 3DFx card was once the most I had
> > to look forward to.
> >
> >> First off I had to install the Radeon
> >> card in the machine but still connect the monitor up to the itegrated
> >> onboard card to get something to display. Once i had done that I got
> >> into device manager and disenabled the onboard graphics. Then I
> >> connected the monitor up to the newly installed PCI card and re-booted
> >> the pc.
> >
> > This is what I don't understand. The original 3D cards weren't
> > supposed to replace your existing graphics hardware - just augment it.
> > So instead of messing with jumper settings or mess with the device
> > manager, you just use a pass-through cable. When I put in my Monster
> > Voodoo2, it was auto-detected immediately. I thought that was the
> > saving grace of PCI - data-transfer would never match AGP, but what you
> > put in was taken in seamlessly. I would have thought that that fact
> > remained as true 5 years later - but then again, I'm still getting over
> > the fact that my brand new computer has less upgradability than the one
> > I got in 2001. What's next? A stereo deck with an 8-track? Cars w/o
> > power doors and locks?
> >
> >> Upon rebooting the new Radeon card did its thing and the display
> >> worked. Also I noticed after the reboot that the integrated garaphics
> >> that I had disabled was now enabled and now both graphics cards are
> >> enabled and don't conflict with each other.
> >
> > Which doesn't suprise me. I've got an extra sound card on my board - I
> > haven't got the sound to work yet, but the game port seems to function
> > as advertized.
> >
> >> I have to say though if I had the option I would return the machine and
> >> upgrade to one that has PCIe as although the Radeon card is working it
> >> aint working as well as it should.
> >> Hope this helps
> >> ricardo
> >
> > Thanks for the response. Good luck whatever you decide.
> >
>
> I'm confused. If you have a 1999 BMW and then buy a 2005 Hyundai, then
> you're going backwards with a newer car.

This is lost on me - mostly because I'm not into trophy cars. I drove
a rental Hyundai once and found it quite peppy. Though I'm sure I'd
miss some of the bells and whistles that come with a BMW (GPS,
multi-disk CD player, bullet-proof glass, rearward looking security
cam), and because I'm not the Chuck Yeager of cars, that extra
performance would be lost on me. The analogy is also somewhat
misplaced because the core technology of automobiles doesn't advance
from year to year as that for computers does (odometer aside, you
seldom have to worry about accidentally buying yesterday's car at
today's prices), and cosmetics aside, who really upgrades their cars?
Getting that new Hyundai doesn't put you behind an older BMW.
>
> If you buy a Dimension 2400 or 3000, you bought a Hyundai -- perhaps
> reliable transportation, but no BMW.

I don't see the analogy. If you buy a 3000, you're getting something
made for the 3rd world car with the veneer of something higher class.
No frills in a Dell case with color-coded labels.

> If you wanted a PCIe slot, then a 4700 or an 8400 or an XPS were all
> available to you. Sorry you made a bad choice.

Could you go back and find where I even suggested I wanted PCI-e? All
I wanted was the same AGP slot I had on my 2001 machine or, barring
that, a simple and vendor-supported option to replace the existing mobo
with a new one that I'd be willing to pay for and install myself. I
didn't choose this machine, and I can't very well go back and ask my
dad for the invoice, telling him that he doesn't know how to buy a PC.
June 7, 2005 6:21:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

FatKat wrote:
>Could you go back and find where I even suggested I wanted PCI-e? All
>I wanted was the same AGP slot I had on my 2001 machine or, barring
>that, a simple and vendor-supported option to replace the existing mobo
>with a new one that I'd be willing to pay for and install myself. I
>didn't choose this machine, and I can't very well go back and ask my
>dad for the invoice, telling him that he doesn't know how to buy a PC.
If you got this computer as a gift why be so concerned about it not
being
EXACTLY what YOU would of ordered. Keep in mind Dell does not sell
computer with AGP slots AT ALL anymore. Add a regular pci video card
or use as is or even sell it but jeez its not Dells or yours or
anybodys fault
its not exactly what you wanted. You option of purchasing a new mother
board
just does not make sense (would cost a large percentage of a new
computer price).
There are many people that would be very greatful to have a brand new
computer regardless of model or specs as a gift. Show a little
appreciation
and gratefulness already.
Dave
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 8, 2005 1:37:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1118178317.762948.201750@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Tom Scales wrote:
>> "FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
>> news:1118091667.799433.196960@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Could you go back and find where I even suggested I wanted PCI-e? All
> I wanted was the same AGP slot I had on my 2001 machine or, barring
> that, a simple and vendor-supported option to replace the existing mobo
> with a new one that I'd be willing to pay for and install myself. I
> didn't choose this machine, and I can't very well go back and ask my
> dad for the invoice, telling him that he doesn't know how to buy a PC.
>

Then you can't buy a current Dell machine. They don't offer a machine with
AGP anymore. Period.

Too bad you're so out of touch. Did you really make a decision to buy this
machine and then regret your decision? Did someone from Dell drop by your
house and FORCE you to buy their entry level model?

Did you buy a Hyundai and then complain it didn't have a navigation system?
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 8, 2005 3:25:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Maybe the 1999 BMW was manufactured without Windows? That would explain
everything as to why the newer BMWs are not as reliable... Ben Myers

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:02:56 GMT, "Tom Scales" <tomtoo@softhome.net> wrote:

>
>"Capt Bob" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:2im9a11d6bc67iubnfn2cb1kp5u7duu9rj@4ax.com...
>
>> One difference in the Hyundai vs BMW, the BMW is much more likely to
>> break down and need service.... Per extensive Consumer reports poll
>> of owners of the 2 vehicle brands.
>
>Perhaps, although my 1999 BMW has been pretty reliable.
>
>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 8, 2005 3:48:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Purely DOS based.
<ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
news:42a62cb7.8114273@nntp.charter.net...
> Maybe the 1999 BMW was manufactured without Windows? That would explain
> everything as to why the newer BMWs are not as reliable... Ben Myers
>
> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:02:56 GMT, "Tom Scales" <tomtoo@softhome.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Capt Bob" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>news:2im9a11d6bc67iubnfn2cb1kp5u7duu9rj@4ax.com...
>>
>>> One difference in the Hyundai vs BMW, the BMW is much more likely to
>>> break down and need service.... Per extensive Consumer reports poll
>>> of owners of the 2 vehicle brands.
>>
>>Perhaps, although my 1999 BMW has been pretty reliable.
>>
>>
>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 8, 2005 6:29:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

That's it then! ... Ben Myers

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:48:33 GMT, "Tom Scales" <tomtoo@softhome.net> wrote:

>Purely DOS based.
><ben_myers_spam_me_not @ charter.net (Ben Myers)> wrote in message
>news:42a62cb7.8114273@nntp.charter.net...
>> Maybe the 1999 BMW was manufactured without Windows? That would explain
>> everything as to why the newer BMWs are not as reliable... Ben Myers
>>
>> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:02:56 GMT, "Tom Scales" <tomtoo@softhome.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Capt Bob" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>news:2im9a11d6bc67iubnfn2cb1kp5u7duu9rj@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>> One difference in the Hyundai vs BMW, the BMW is much more likely to
>>>> break down and need service.... Per extensive Consumer reports poll
>>>> of owners of the 2 vehicle brands.
>>>
>>>Perhaps, although my 1999 BMW has been pretty reliable.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 8, 2005 11:18:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

David wrote:
> FatKat wrote:
> >Could you go back and find where I even suggested I wanted PCI-e? All
> >I wanted was the same AGP slot I had on my 2001 machine or, barring
> >that, a simple and vendor-supported option to replace the existing mobo
> >with a new one that I'd be willing to pay for and install myself. I
> >didn't choose this machine, and I can't very well go back and ask my
> >dad for the invoice, telling him that he doesn't know how to buy a PC.

> If you got this computer as a gift why be so concerned about it not
> being EXACTLY what YOU would of ordered.

It's nowhere near what I would have ordered.

> Keep in mind Dell does not sell computer with AGP slots AT ALL
> anymore.

Which I can understand in principle. But it's not like they're
abandoning AGP purely for PCI-e in the name of progress when they sell
systems that can't take cards of either type. This isn't a case of
being asked to pay for a MoBo with something exotic like PCI-e that I
might not ever need. It's about a machine that can't even use my 3
year old GeForce3.

> Add a regular pci video card

Up until 2 months ago, my 64 MB GF3 was a regular video card. I'm
planning on picking up the PCI version of the 5700LE. In NG threads
where I can inquire about the upgrade potential of my 3000 w/o being
derided as a complainer, the 5700LE seems to be the card I hear the
warmest recommendations about.

> or use as is or even sell it but jeez its not Dells or yours or
> anybodys fault its not exactly what you wanted.

Who said anything about "fault"? I'm just trying to get my machine to
perform measurably better than the one it replaced. It's not like I'm
even trying to overclock the thing.

> You option of purchasing a new mother board just does not make sense
> (would cost a large percentage of a new computer price).

Thanks for answering the principle question...eventually.

> There are many people that would be very greatful to have a brand new
> computer regardless of model or specs as a gift. Show a little
> appreciation and gratefulness already.

Dave's right. I'm so sorry I even considered asking how I can spend my
own money to upgrade my own machine. I should be forced to apologize
to Dell on every NG thread I ever contributed to - warning youngsters
of computerland that it's more important to be BOTH appreciative AND
grateful for a lackluster gift than it is to spend one's own money and
time to make it something worth keeping.

> Dave
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 8, 2005 1:29:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Ben Myers wrote:

> Maybe the 1999 BMW was manufactured without Windows? That would explain
> everything as to why the newer BMWs are not as reliable... Ben Myers

Manufactured without Windows? Should make it *nore* reliable, not less,
wouldn't it?
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 8, 2005 1:30:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Tom Scales wrote:

> Purely DOS based.

Wasn't it GAS based?
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 8, 2005 3:52:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Tom Scales wrote:
> "FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
> news:1118178317.762948.201750@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Tom Scales wrote:
> >> "FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1118091667.799433.196960@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Could you go back and find where I even suggested I wanted PCI-e? All
> > I wanted was the same AGP slot I had on my 2001 machine or, barring
> > that, a simple and vendor-supported option to replace the existing mobo
> > with a new one that I'd be willing to pay for and install myself. I
> > didn't choose this machine, and I can't very well go back and ask my
> > dad for the invoice, telling him that he doesn't know how to buy a PC.
> >
>
> Then you can't buy a current Dell machine. They don't offer a machine with
> AGP anymore. Period.

But apparently they have no problem selling machines that fall even
below AGP, making sure that the sedate integrated graphics chipset
chosen for their machines has the pleasantly innocuous "Intel Extreme"
name.

> Too bad you're so out of touch. Did you really make a decision to buy this
> machine and then regret your decision?

Speaking of out of touch, could you go back and review my OP if you're
going to criticize. I didn't buy this machine - it was a gift. If I
had purchased it, I would have taken my lumps, spent the cash to
replace/upgrade it, and posted a few NG messages warning others in the
market to avoid my experience. Because it was a gift, it's just going
to look a bit awkward if it's suddenly replaced.

> Did someone from Dell drop by your house and FORCE you to buy their entry
> level model?

Wait - I knew you sounded familiar!!! "Intel Extreme" my ass!!!!

> Did you buy a Hyundai and then complain it didn't have a navigation system?

Oh, the Hyundai analogy...again. Boy, it just gets funnier every time
I hear it. Okay - the Hyundai thing seems to go like this. I buy a
Hyundai to replace my older BMW (assuming that that sort of thing
happens with any sort of regularity - I've never owned either make).
The Hyundai is newer, but somehow more backward than the BMW. The BMW
had a GPS system but the Hyundai does not. Now putting aside the
plausibility that anybody who ever owned a GPS-equipped BMW would be in
the market for any model of Hyundai regardless of its options, the
analogy has its problems.

First, my last PC wasn't a BMW - it wasn't even a Saab. I'm not sure
what it was, but it had no brand name which matters much to all those
Dell fans who think you can't get support with a non-name machine. I'd
say it was an import from some eastern country that doesn't exist any
more. It was at one point extremely cranky and not quite reliable.
But I learned its limits and its potential and a shaky 1st year was
followed by nearly 3 smooth ones. So it's not like my expectations
were unrealistically boosted.

The next problem is that the analogy's comparison of AGP to GPS is
somewhat forced - why compare it to something as exotic as GPS?. My
'93 Explorer came with an AM/FM radio & cassette player. Already the
compact cassette is fading into history - supplanted by the CD.
Unless, of course, I buy a Hyundai - which, according to the analogy,
will be stuck with tape players through the mid-point of the century.
AGP has been around for about 8 years - even on such hoary boards as
the Socket 7. GPS has been around for years, but how many cars really
had them? Who's to say that AGP is any less a standard item than power
locks and windows?
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 8, 2005 5:59:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Thanks.
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 8, 2005 6:57:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Capt Bob wrote:
> Like running a 6" water main into a piece of 1/4" copper tubing and then
> into your house.

Yeah, that would be a totally messed up demonstration of Bernoulli's
Equation. It would probably mess up the house also.
>
> Bob
June 8, 2005 7:15:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Why are you wasting time and bandwidth, with
these endless bleats? Grow up and contribute
something useful or go away. We heard you already.


"FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1118256754.752517.119760@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tom Scales wrote:
>> "FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
>> news:1118178317.762948.201750@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > Tom Scales wrote:
>> >> "FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:1118091667.799433.196960@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > Could you go back and find where I even suggested I wanted PCI-e?
>> > All
>> > I wanted was the same AGP slot I had on my 2001 machine or, barring
>> > that, a simple and vendor-supported option to replace the existing
>> > mobo
>> > with a new one that I'd be willing to pay for and install myself.
>> > I
>> > didn't choose this machine, and I can't very well go back and ask
>> > my
>> > dad for the invoice, telling him that he doesn't know how to buy a
>> > PC.
>> >
>>
>> Then you can't buy a current Dell machine. They don't offer a machine
>> with
>> AGP anymore. Period.
>
> But apparently they have no problem selling machines that fall even
> below AGP, making sure that the sedate integrated graphics chipset
> chosen for their machines has the pleasantly innocuous "Intel Extreme"
> name.
>
>> Too bad you're so out of touch. Did you really make a decision to
>> buy this
>> machine and then regret your decision?
>
> Speaking of out of touch, could you go back and review my OP if you're
> going to criticize. I didn't buy this machine - it was a gift. If I
> had purchased it, I would have taken my lumps, spent the cash to
> replace/upgrade it, and posted a few NG messages warning others in the
> market to avoid my experience. Because it was a gift, it's just going
> to look a bit awkward if it's suddenly replaced.
>
>> Did someone from Dell drop by your house and FORCE you to buy their
>> entry
>> level model?
>
> Wait - I knew you sounded familiar!!! "Intel Extreme" my ass!!!!
>
>> Did you buy a Hyundai and then complain it didn't have a navigation
>> system?
>
> Oh, the Hyundai analogy...again. Boy, it just gets funnier every time
> I hear it. Okay - the Hyundai thing seems to go like this. I buy a
> Hyundai to replace my older BMW (assuming that that sort of thing
> happens with any sort of regularity - I've never owned either make).
> The Hyundai is newer, but somehow more backward than the BMW. The BMW
> had a GPS system but the Hyundai does not. Now putting aside the
> plausibility that anybody who ever owned a GPS-equipped BMW would be
> in
> the market for any model of Hyundai regardless of its options, the
> analogy has its problems.
>
> First, my last PC wasn't a BMW - it wasn't even a Saab. I'm not sure
> what it was, but it had no brand name which matters much to all those
> Dell fans who think you can't get support with a non-name machine.
> I'd
> say it was an import from some eastern country that doesn't exist any
> more. It was at one point extremely cranky and not quite reliable.
> But I learned its limits and its potential and a shaky 1st year was
> followed by nearly 3 smooth ones. So it's not like my expectations
> were unrealistically boosted.
>
> The next problem is that the analogy's comparison of AGP to GPS is
> somewhat forced - why compare it to something as exotic as GPS?. My
> '93 Explorer came with an AM/FM radio & cassette player. Already the
> compact cassette is fading into history - supplanted by the CD.
> Unless, of course, I buy a Hyundai - which, according to the analogy,
> will be stuck with tape players through the mid-point of the century.
> AGP has been around for about 8 years - even on such hoary boards as
> the Socket 7. GPS has been around for years, but how many cars really
> had them? Who's to say that AGP is any less a standard item than
> power
> locks and windows?
>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 8, 2005 7:15:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"RJ" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:i8adnTdLc4PL3jrfRVn-hQ@adelphia.com...
> Why are you wasting time and bandwidth, with
> these endless bleats? Grow up and contribute
> something useful or go away. We heard you already.
>
>


<snip>

Dude, if you're gonna crack on him for bandwidth at least snip out the
considerable comments like so. :-)


Stew
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 9, 2005 2:29:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Bernoulli's Equation....wasn't that the movie with Nicholas Cage and...Oh
wait a second. Sorry, I was thinking of Archimedes The Sandreckoner with
Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor. No wait a second....

Regards,
John O.


"FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1118267846.205932.243430@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Capt Bob wrote:
>> Like running a 6" water main into a piece of 1/4" copper tubing and then
>> into your house.
>
> Yeah, that would be a totally messed up demonstration of Bernoulli's
> Equation. It would probably mess up the house also.
>>
>> Bob
>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 9, 2005 7:21:08 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

I thought maybe the 2004 BMW ran Windows. I meant newer than 1999... Ben

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 09:29:37 -0400, Sparky Spartacus
<Sparky@universalexports.org> wrote:

>Ben Myers wrote:
>
>> Maybe the 1999 BMW was manufactured without Windows? That would explain
>> everything as to why the newer BMWs are not as reliable... Ben Myers
>
>Manufactured without Windows? Should make it *nore* reliable, not less,
>wouldn't it?
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 9, 2005 7:02:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote:

>Speaking of out of touch, could you go back and review my OP if you're
>going to criticize. I didn't buy this machine - it was a gift. If I
>had purchased it, I would have taken my lumps, spent the cash to
>replace/upgrade it, and posted a few NG messages warning others in the
>market to avoid my experience. Because it was a gift, it's just going
>to look a bit awkward if it's suddenly replaced.

Were you, or the misguided person(s) who gave you that 3000. not
out of touch, you/he/she/they would know that, like its other
major competitors - Gateway, HP/Compaq, IBM - Dell has arranged
its home/home office/small business desktop computer lines into
three tiers, the 2xxx/now 3000 series of basic entry-level
computers, the 4xxxx series of mid-level desktops, and the
8xxx/soon to be or now 9000 series of higher level desktops.

Had your donor taken the time to read the info readily available
on the Dell website pages featuring the 3000, they would have
seen by the technical specs that it was an entry-level computer
with integrated graphics, with no AGP/PCI-E slot, limited empty
PCI slots, no second internal drive bay, etc, etc, etc. Then,
knowing you as well as I would hope they know you, they could
have gone up to the 4xxx or 8xxx Dell, which offer increasing
flexibility in both pre- and post-purchase configuration/upgrade
potential with more slots, drive bays, etc, as shown in /their
technical specs..

Dell [or Gateway, or HP/Compaq, or ...] can't make anyone *read*
the information they put on their web pages about any of their
computer models. All they can do, and have done, is make it
available to be read by anyone computer literate enough to know
that they should /always/ read the specs on any computer they are
considering for purchase for themselves or as a gift..
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 10, 2005 9:52:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Ogden Johnson III" <oj3usmc@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2v2ha19reumqqbpvf5mra6h61lin5jfrjq@4ax.com...
> "FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote:
>
> >Speaking of out of touch, could you go back and review my OP if you're
> >going to criticize. I didn't buy this machine - it was a gift. If I
> >had purchased it, I would have taken my lumps, spent the cash to
> >replace/upgrade it, and posted a few NG messages warning others in the
> >market to avoid my experience. Because it was a gift, it's just going
> >to look a bit awkward if it's suddenly replaced.
>
> Were you, or the misguided person(s) who gave you that 3000. not
> out of touch, you/he/she/they would know that, like its other
> major competitors - Gateway, HP/Compaq, IBM - Dell has arranged
> its home/home office/small business desktop computer lines into
> three tiers, the 2xxx/now 3000 series of basic entry-level
> computers, the 4xxxx series of mid-level desktops, and the
> 8xxx/soon to be or now 9000 series of higher level desktops.
>
> Had your donor taken the time to read the info readily available
> on the Dell website pages featuring the 3000, they would have
> seen by the technical specs that it was an entry-level computer
> with integrated graphics, with no AGP/PCI-E slot, limited empty
> PCI slots, no second internal drive bay, etc, etc, etc. Then,
> knowing you as well as I would hope they know you, they could
> have gone up to the 4xxx or 8xxx Dell, which offer increasing
> flexibility in both pre- and post-purchase configuration/upgrade
> potential with more slots, drive bays, etc, as shown in /their
> technical specs..
>
> Dell [or Gateway, or HP/Compaq, or ...] can't make anyone *read*
> the information they put on their web pages about any of their
> computer models. All they can do, and have done, is make it
> available to be read by anyone computer literate enough to know
> that they should /always/ read the specs on any computer they are
> considering for purchase for themselves or as a gift..
> --
> OJ III
> [Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
> Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

I'd categorize them as:
Level 1 - Disposal/Non-upgradeable, every corner cut to lower price,
basic beginner use, no demanding games.
Level 2 - Semi-Upgradeable, may have slightly lower performance components,
some corners cut but you can pay to uncut them.
Level 3 - Upgradeable, latest technology, handles demanding applications.
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
June 10, 2005 4:07:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"snert" <snert@bowwow.com> wrote:


>"Ogden Johnson III" <oj3usmc@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> "FatKat" <robynari@juno.com> wrote:


[Stuff snipped throughout, including most of FatKat's stuff]

>> >... I didn't buy this machine - it was a gift. If I
>> >had purchased it, I would have taken my lumps, spent the cash to
>> >replace/upgrade it, and posted a few NG messages warning others in the
>> >market to avoid my experience. Because it was a gift, it's just going
>> >to look a bit awkward if it's suddenly replaced.

>> ... like its other
>> major competitors - Gateway, HP/Compaq, IBM - Dell has arranged
>> its home/home office/small business desktop computer lines into
>> three tiers, the 2xxx/now 3000 series of basic entry-level
>> computers, the 4xxxx series of mid-level desktops, and the
>> 8xxx/soon to be or now 9000 series of higher level desktops.

>I'd categorize them as:
>Level 1 - Disposal/Non-upgradeable, every corner cut to lower price,
> basic beginner use, no demanding games.
>Level 2 - Semi-Upgradeable, may have slightly lower performance components,
> some corners cut but you can pay to uncut them.
>Level 3 - Upgradeable, latest technology, handles demanding applications.

Can't really argue with your categorization. I've had 8xxxs [L3]
at work, and 4xxx [L2] at home. My first home Dells were the
then L1 Lxxx series [L733s to be specific]. The 4400 I have at
home meets all my needs - since I don't do anything exotic with
it like heavy graphics apps, games, etc. Just basic plain
vanilla computing. But given program and data file bloat, I
always want that second internal HD bay for expansion when the
time comes - as it inevitably does. ;->
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]
!