MadOnion Ranks Radeon 8500 #1

[noko]

Even with immature drivers from the driver team from hell at ATI, Nvidia couldn't maintain the crown any longer with the Hot! running TI500 nor the Det 4 drivers. ATI dethrones and topples Nvidia's best in a matter of a few weeks on the release of the Radeon 8500. 3dMark2001 now belongs to the new champion the Radeon 8500. Now what is Nvidia going to do when ATI puts out faster drivers which have already started to appear, the 7199 from ATI has already pushed 3dMark2001 even further away from Nvidia's grasp.

<A HREF="http://gamershq.madonion.com/profile/?login.shtml" target="_new">8500 ranked #1</A>

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 10/22/01 09:04 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[flamethrower205]

Dude, it's only 1 benchmark, and it's theoretical. I care more about real world performance, and I bet you that my Quadro DCC will destroy the Radeon 8500 in OpenGL.

U got a problem?! Then dial 1800-328-7448!

 

[noko]

<font color=purple>Dude, it's only 1 benchmark, and it's theoretical.

</font color=purple>

Hey dude, it isn't only one benchmark it is also a game engine that is used in a very popular game <b>MaxPayne</b>, with many variants using this same game engine in the future. So no, it isn't all theoretical not in the least bit. Yes, ATI will improve the drivers and the difference between the Radeon 8500 and TI500 will be even larger. Are you really sure about your claim in OpenGL? :lol:

 

[flamethrower205]

Yes I am sure.

U got a problem?! Then dial 1800-328-7448!

 

[flamethrower205]

Otherwise, if the R8500 was better than Quadro, they would just switch them. I don't see anything like Maxtreme for R8500.....

U got a problem?! Then dial 1800-328-7448!

 

[flamethrower205]

Tell ya what....get someone with R8500 to use 3DSMAX, and there are benchmarking files there. I want to see how well it runs them. I can get way higher than 30FPS even in the geometry ones, which are rather complex.

U got a problem?! Then dial 1800-328-7448!

 

[noko]

Looks like your claims are flawed, here the Radeon 8500 ousted the GF3 TI500 4 out of 6 times in OpenGL on an AMD system.

<A HREF="http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/util_get_image/0/0,3363,i=5726,00.jpg" target="_new">ViewPerf 6.1.2 </A>

<A HREF="http://common.ziffdavisinternet.com/util_get_image/0/0,3363,i=5727,00.jpg" target="_new">ViewPerf 6.1.2</A>

These are professional OpenGL benchmarks in which a superior GF3 TI 500 to your antiquadated Quadra is compared. So I wouldn't be to sure about what you said unless you want to eat crow buddy.

Plus these are with very immature Radeon 8500 OpenGL drivers, soon the TI 500 would probably loose in all tests in which your old card wouldn't even have a chance to begin with. Besides you should be comparing a Radeon 8800 vice a Radeon 8500.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 10/22/01 09:32 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[flamethrower205]

If you haven't realized, first a Quadro isn't an antique, and also, it specializes in OpenGl, at the expense of some D3D performance loss. I really would like to see my Quadro DCC, which mind you is teh newest Quadro in Max R4 versus an R8500. Also, in teh end, who gets tmore bragging rights

U got a problem?! Then dial 1800-328-7448!

 

[SerArthurDayne]

Considering Nvidia has held the 3dmark crown for a looooooong time now, ATi should be ashamed that it's taken them this long to claw their way to the top And didn't you used to be one of the people on this board who ridiculed 3dmark and called it a synthetic benchmark yourself? After all, according to MadOnion, the Radeon DDR was always behind even the Ge2 GTS.

Plus there's the little problem that the Radeon 8500's 3dmark2001 scores just don't seem to add up right in comparison with other game benchmarks. The 8500 thwomps the Geforce3 in 3dmark2k1, but then the Geforce3 thwomps the 8500 in the vast majority of game benchmarks? What gives eh? One might suspect ATi of optimizing their drivers specifically for certain benchmarks like... oh.... say... Q3 and 3dmark?



"Laziness is a talent to be cultivated like any other" - Walter Slovotsky

 

[somerandomguy]

One might suspect ATi of optimizing their drivers specifically for certain benchmarks like... oh.... say... Q3 and 3dmark?

I wouldn't be surprised, but then I wouldn't be surprise if NVidia is doing the same thing.

"Ignorance is bliss, but I tend to get screwed over."

 

[flamethrower205]

Yeah, NVidia optimizes- it's teh mainstream, so games are optimized for NVidia's GPU's.

U got a problem?! Then dial 1800-328-7448!

 

[Crashman]

The GF2 could beet the Radeom DDR in 2000 but not in 2001. Unless you were talking about a Pro or Ultra, which wasn't in the same price catagory.

Back to you Tom...

 

[LoveGuRu]

u cant optimise drivers but you can optimise games or patches, besides otimisation wont get you much over 2-5 fps in best cases.

<font color=green>
*******
*K.I.S.S*
*(k)eep (I)t (S)imple (S)tupid*
*******
</font color=green>

 

[SerArthurDayne]

Here's a snippet from HardOCP:

"The Facts As We See Them:

It certainly seems to us here at [H]ardOCP that ATi has in fact included application specific instructions in their version 5.13.01.3276 Win2K drivers that make Quake 3 arena benchmarks faster by up to over 15%.

The Real Question:

Does this really make a difference?

There are those that will argue that ATi is in fact cheating at the benchmark game by producing and distributing drivers that are aimed at increasing scores in what is the most widely used 3D benchmark in the world. The other side of that argument is that ATi is simply building a driver set that is aimed at giving Quake 3 Arena players the smoothest gaming experience that ATi can deliver.

We are not going to interject a lot of opinion on this matter except to say this. We think that ATi should be producing Radeon drivers that are 3D engine specific and not game specific. Especially when the one targeted game is a widely used benchmark that people trust.

As we mentioned we are not out to start an anti-ATi crusade over this matter as the Radeon 8500 already has a great battle in front of it in the battle for market share. Still we think it is important in situations like this that you are armed with this type of information when evaluating your next VidCard purchase. In closing we would like to say that all the same testing was run on the latest set of NVIDIA DetonatorXP drivers without any of the same issues. Your thoughts and opinions are always welcome HERE with us as well."

"Laziness is a talent to be cultivated like any other" - Walter Slovotsky

 

[xxsk8er101xx]

lalalala doobey doobey dooooo! oh btw .. Go Yankees! woo!
also a hockey game on tonight... lets go sabers!

this has to be the lamest posts ever! where is that guy that scales the posts for lamness?? i'd give this a 8/10 on the lamness scale 10 being the highest thats for sure.



<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>

 

[phsstpok]

SerArthurDayne, thanks for that information. I had read about alleged Quake III enhancements in ATI's driver elsewhere but I could not remember where.

The article at HardOCP that you mentioned (<A HREF="http://www.hardocp.com/reviews/vidcards/ati/8500/quack/" target="_new">clickable</A>) is pretty convincing.

The question still remains. Does the ATI driver have game specific <b>tweaks</b> or game specific <b>cheats</b>?

Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.

 

[noko]

Well this is what ATI said to Rage3d.com about it:

<font color=purple><b>As John Challinor said he would, he got back to me a little earlier with ATI's official statement. I'll quote in full here:


ATI optimizes its drivers on many different levels, including the application level, the game engine level, the API level, and the operating system level. That is, some optimizations work only on specific games, while others work only on specific game engines or only on specific operating systems. In the case of Quake III and Quake III Arena, we were able to achieve certain optimizations specifically for that game, as we do for other popular games. Our engineering team is committed to providing the best visual experience for the user in all applications, with the optimal combination of high frame rates, image quality, and stability.</font color=purple></b>

Yep, ATI trys to give you the most out of your ATI card, sometimes they fail.

 

[noko]

<font color=red><b><i>Considering Nvidia has held the 3dmark crown for a looooooong time now, ATi should be ashamed that it's taken them this long to claw their way to the top And didn't you used to be one of the people on this board who ridiculed 3dmark and called it a synthetic benchmark yourself? After all, according to MadOnion, the Radeon DDR was always behind even the Ge2 GTS.

</font color=red></b></i>

Well 3dMark2001 is now less then a synthetic benchmark since the game engine used for it is also being used in a very popular game with more games probably on the way. Actually the Radeon beat the GF2 in 3dMark2001 especially when the benchmark first came out since Nvidia didn't have DX8 drivers. I guess ATI should be ashamed for beating Nvidia fastest and top notch card with very mature drivers with their own first release immature drivers. HEHE that just doesn't sound right. wOOT wOOT ATI, long live the New King.

 

[flamethrower205]

new King? No. I'll just sit back, watch and laugh at you when I get my water cooling system and clock my Quadro DCC to 300MHz+.

U got a problem?! Then dial 1800-328-7448!

 

[noko]

Laugh all you want, I can't hear you, I will probably laugh when your Quadra goes up in smoke . Why isn't it fast enough now for you :lol: .

 

[somerandomguy]

<A HREF="http://www.sourcemagazine.com/csm/Forum2/HTML/000131.html" target="_new">ATI answers a few questions about the Radeon 8500</A>

"Ignorance is bliss, but I tend to get screwed over."

 

[phsstpok]

That is a very reasonable explanation but it could be just a PR response. Now that the question has been raised I think ATI owes the public a detailed description of just what "optimizations" have been done. Do they change LOD options set by the user within Q3 and Q3 Arena? If I select maximum quality options do I get something else?

Don't get me wrong. I think the 8500 is a complete success, giving strong competition to the GF3 family. This can be nothing but a positive for the consumer.

Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.

 

[noko]

Frankly I think ATI compromised image quality for increase FPS in Q3. Go to Rage3d.com and you can see comparison images that does show that. Now was that intentional or a boo-boo? Frankly to me if ATI degraded image quality when the FPS was way over 100 anyways then they did the wrong thing and people do notice. Are the Radeon driver good for the Radeon 8500 I would say NOT! At least yet. For Win9x they are OK but they need alot of improvement. The good thing about this is that the Radeon 8500 will really shine when they are.

 

[phsstpok]

The good thing about this is that the Radeon 8500 will really shine when they are [improved].

I agree.

As for game specific, engine specific, and circumstance specific optimizations, I'm all for it, especially if hidden performance is being found. However, if compromises are being done then the user should be made aware of this and the choice whether or not to use these compromises should be available in the Display Manager.

Would you like a Quarter Pounder?
No, thank you. Just give me the BIG heatsink. It's an Athlon.

 

[SerArthurDayne]

hehehe, ok ok

I'll concede the point that the Radeon 8500's technology is superior to the Geforce3, but it just really makes me mad that they can't get their driver act together. The 8500 is such a promising product - ATi has delivered on the hardware level, but they promised us excellent drivers and fell really far short in my opinion.

I've made a bit of a fuss about ATi's apparent game specific optimizations, but after thinking about it, I feel it's acceptable. If ATi can provide top notch performance in some of the most played games due to game specific optimizations, I think that's a semi-fair trade to wait for them to provide overall performance boosts. But ONLY if ATI actually delivers strong overall performance fairly soon.... it would be a major disappointment to see the Radeon 8500 be undisputed king of a handful of popular games and then fall behind in everything else just because of driver problems, especially considering the potential power behind it. What can I say... I love Nvidia for their drivers, and ATi for... um... uh.. oh yeah, I still dislike ATi for that time I bought that Rage128 and had to deal with miserable drivers for months before I swapped it for a TNT. I swear - my first time installing those Detonator drivers I think I heard angels singing from above

"Laziness is a talent to be cultivated like any other" - Walter Slovotsky