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The new Radeon 8500 vs Geforce 3 Article

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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November 7, 2001 1:51:33 PM

I want to hear what you all think about the new article.

My issues with it.

1. The way the CPU setup is discussed, it makes it sound like the AMD 1.33 Athlon is a mid to low level system. It was near top of the line as early as 2 months ago. However, I do think that it is a better test ground because it is closer to what most people have at the moment than the high powered systems. What might have been better is to have done 3-4 different CPUs with the test. A top of the line, Mid line, and bottem end (XP 1800+, Athlon 1.33, Duron 1.0). It would give a good reference for many different users.

2. AMD Stability issues were brought up as an issue. I wonder if they are using a clean install on each system or not. Most AMD users have less stability issues than the tech's at Tom's Hardware.

3. I do like how they used 98 and XP, however, I would have liked to have a 2000 compairison. Many non-XP users are running 2000, and 2000 would have somewhat different stats than 98. Plus, I've found the 2000 Radeon 8500 drivers to be more stable and more complete than the 98 versions.

4. When they did the Quake demo, they mentioned the "Cheating". Why didn't they use the Quack patch to try to test it without the "Cheating"?

5. He adressed ATI stability issues in XP. However, as many people have posted, there can be stability issues with the Geforce 3 as well. However, they miraculously encountered none.

6. If ATI was supposed to come out with new drivers in Mid-November, why bother doing this compairison now? Why not wait till the new drivers come out? Now they'll have to do it all over again.

Overall, I thought the article was well done and relitively impartial. And, like many other reviews, he did come to the conclusion that the 8500 needs better driver work, but has great potential. I did find it interesting that he complimented ATI on a few driver optimizations in some circumstances.

60 FPS, 70 FPS, 80 FPS Crash!
Daylight comes and I have to go to work :frown:
November 7, 2001 3:42:04 PM

Quote:
In the prestigious Quake 3 test, the R8500 edges out the previous champion, the Ti500! But ATI is using a driver optimization for Quake 3 which results in lower image quality.


LoL, "optimisation", its called cheating!


My only other problem with the review was when he ONLY USED THE QUAKE RESULTS FOR THE OVERCLOCKING TEST!!!!!

THE CHEATING RESULTS!!!

Toms reviews suck I have decided.

Regardless, the review shows that except in benchmarks which the radeon optomised for, the card cannot keep up, giants, ut just dismal performance.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 7, 2001 4:40:15 PM

Bah @ Matisaro. Well have you ever 1920x1200 100hz. Well ATi's Ultra high-end 2d was my deciding factor. 400mhz RAMDAC w00t w00t.

Nice Nvidia and ATi users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
Related resources
November 7, 2001 4:40:26 PM

Mid-November i get new divers. Smoothvision enabled, Quake will be fixed. More proformace and Where in the hell is DX 8.1 ?

Thomas pasbt didnt wrote the artcle Lars did.

Nice Nvidia and ATi users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
November 7, 2001 7:31:36 PM

here we go again with the "ati is a cheating and should be banished so nvidia will be the only graphics card maker and have a monopoly on all of us so they can raise their prices so we'll end up paying $4k for a 16mb card."
oh...and the whining too.

I don't claim to know anything about everything, I just tell people what I know.
-PSB
November 7, 2001 7:56:15 PM

Yeah, and you forgot and the GF3 Ti500 would be around $500 if there was Radeon 8500 to compete. Well Nvidia is rushing a DX8.1 geforce 4 now. Well the R300 fully DX 9.0 is coming too.

Nice Nvidia and ATi users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
November 7, 2001 10:53:46 PM

ATI shoudnt be banished, I think cheating is a repugnant thing, apparently you think its fine.


It is NOT driver optimisation, its bald face cheating, you can live with that, thats fine, I dont have to.

ATI brings prices down, thats fine, if thats your only defence of their actions, thats pathetic.


Know this, I do not want ATI to go down, and I was genuinly interested in getting an 8500 for myself, untill I learned of the cheating. My personal objection to the 8500 is a moral one. There are other non moral arguments to ATI, such as piss poor drivers, selling lower clocked radeons without labeling them(which they have fixxed since it was publicised). Those are the points I debate about, the cheating is only MY PERSONAL reason not to buy the 8500.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 7, 2001 10:55:55 PM

Quote:
Well have you ever 1920x1200 100hz. Well ATi's Ultra high-end 2d was my deciding factor. 400mhz RAMDAC w00t w00t.


At that resolution the screen dimentions would be messed up, I unlike you, do not prefer to look at things in such a warped fasion.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 7, 2001 11:05:14 PM

Woah, that's really wide screen! Odd, I'v eseen GF3 2D at 1600x1200 and 120hz, and must say it was great- no probs with it.

U got a problem?! Then dial 1800-328-7448!
November 8, 2001 12:23:43 AM

Seriously though, how can such res be useful if things are WAY too small??? I never found why they use such big res for playing. To me 1024*768 is more than enough as long as FPS is high. I've been on 640*480 forever.

I personaly liked the article, because it finally showed what the R8500 can do! I mean the previous one showed nothing but disappointment, now I see it much better. Even if it is still castrated, bad drivers; like Lars said, it has potential, and this means that once ATi gets it right, we have a hidden ultimate card. I just hope they don't go for GF4 already, it makes us GF3 buyers look too poor now! Go for a GF3PRO, GTS or Ultra, but not GF4 now!
November 8, 2001 12:30:48 AM

Since I use WinMe (Games), W2K(everything else plus games), plus I use an AMD system, this review was more useful for me to gauge which card to get. I was very amazed with FiringSquad review of the LeadTech GF3 Ti500, it had better 2d quality then a Matrox G450 and goes into why it did. DVI and TV out as well. A must read for those looking at the high end commercial cards.

<A HREF="http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/winfastti500/" target="_new">LeadTech GF3 Ti500 kickass card</A>

Still I am hedging towards the Radeon 8500 because of Hydravision and SmoothVision (if it ever works and works good). ATI has very good 2d quality in colors and sharpness but it looks like finally a manufactuer of a Nvidia Chipset card did its homework and produced a superior 2d/high resolution card 2nd to none. Drivers are also much more mature on the Nvidia card only problem I see is that the GF3 TI 500 is priced to high for the competition making me want to stick with ATI. I will wait about 2 more months, probably after christmass to buy my video card update.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 11/07/01 09:31 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
November 8, 2001 12:41:46 AM

relax man...there's a thing called sarcasm. and no...cheating isnt ok, but if you took a class with a teacher that gave the exact same test every year, wouldnt you tend to cheat a little?

I don't claim to know anything about everything, I just tell people what I know.
-PSB
November 8, 2001 12:50:37 AM

No, I would not cheat a "little".
Nor would I call turning down the detail settings and the color depth without telling the teacher cheating a "little" .I would call it flat out bullshitting the test.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 8, 2001 1:16:14 AM

Ok, now I am upset.

I just found out that not only is my Radeon 8500 OEM card underclocked, but actualy has a slower RAMDAC (350, not 400). Now that is quite underhanded. I payed for a Radeon 8500. I specificly checked, and it was not a Radeon 8500 LE. I'm going to have words with ATI, and the company where I got the card from.

60 FPS, 70 FPS, 80 FPS Crash!
Daylight comes and I have to go to work :frown:
November 8, 2001 1:19:41 AM

whoops...

I don't claim to know anything about everything, I just tell people what I know.
-PSB
November 8, 2001 1:29:51 AM

Matisaro, I feel you are becoming an nVidia troll. You keep refering to the cheating ATI did but that's not fair!! As a 15 year old, I still remember the days when my friends and I would do something and then I'd get caught while they didn't. I really really hated those situations!! I know nVidia has cheated before because no human can resist the chance to cheat. nVidia was just fortunate enough not to get caught.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2001 3:23:26 AM

Hi Everyone, i'm new to this Board.

Hey Matisaro, what's up? Hey I don't want to make it seem like i'm jumping all over you beucase it's not what i'm trying to do, this is just my point. You seem to have a lot of morals and I don't have anything against it, but If you want to talk about morals, I think you should recall not too long ago when the Kyro chip came out, I believe nvidia did some very questionable marketing tactics towards Kyro. A lot of us have bad memeory when it comes towards certain things and now i'm sure you will remember what i'm talking about. So if you want to talk about Morals and what ATI is doing, Nvidia is no better then ATI, they are worst I think becuase they can flex their muscles because the have the market in the palm of their hand.

Think about it.

Peace

Termite.
November 8, 2001 3:45:06 AM

Forget that the just look at number.I run 2k/Radeon 8500 it have never lag and there is not others GPU that beat them at graphic quality.

Go ATI.1 thing anti-ati they right now looking for software engiener for driver in toronto/germany .... so every place.


Wisdom dont come with time
Meilleur chance la prochaine fois
November 8, 2001 4:09:04 AM

Ok, there is a HUGE difference between being competitive and cheating, I do not object to nvidias actions against kryo(as underhanded as they may or may not have been), I object to ATI OR ANYONE!!! cheating on benchmarks, if its ok for ati to cheat on benchmarks, i mean they are the under dog lets give them a shot, the benifit of the doubt, when does it stop. A benchmark is an indifferent test to show which piece of hardware works best, if we allow it to be violated then we will no longer have any way to measure the performance of hardware. This week ati turns down its graphical settings to get more fps, next week nvidia designs its next chip to run quake 3 uber fast, at the expense of everything else. Then ati comes back with more "optimisations". A benchmark by deffinition must be equal on both sides, if the gf3 ran with 32 bit color, then the radeon should too run with 32 bit color. If the radeon sets its color to 16 bit while you think it is still at 32 bit, this is blatanly wrong.

This is my objection to ati, the devaluation of benchmarking.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 8, 2001 4:14:29 AM

AMD, I am not an nvidia troll, ATI CHEATED HELLO!

If nvidia cheated I would hold them to the same high standards I hold ati to now, the fact remains, IF NVIDIA HAS CHEATED LIKE ATI HAS IN THE PAST, they have never been caught. So you and I cannot hold them guilty of something we have no proof of, bring me proof and I will debate against nvidia as well.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 8, 2001 4:17:15 AM

I am sorry bront, you should seriously RMA it. It is not so much atis fault as the dealer, you specifically asked for retail, thats what you should get. When you RMA it, get the retail radeon 8500 if you still want ATI, or a gf3 if you dont trust them anymore.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2001 8:10:23 AM

My main impression from the review was just how much of the performance of these expensive graphics cards was eaten by Windows XP, particularly in DirectX. Although the conclusion commented that the ATI drivers in XP weren't too gooed, the nVidia cards seemed to suffer a lot in XP directX games too. IIRC some games lost upto 20+% framerates in XP on both nVidia/ATI cards. If you look at the benchmark Evolva Bump - DirectX 7 Game - T&L, the GeForceTi500 went from 126.9 ->99.2 just by changing from Win98 to WinXP. These losses in frame rates totally eclipse the differences in the nVidia v ATI debate. I'm surprised the conclusion didn't make more of this ! Using XP would seem to destroy much of the advantage of having a fast but expensive graphics card if you use DirectX, not upgrading to XP would mean maybe you don't need that expensive card upgrade so much !

Tony
November 8, 2001 9:05:23 AM

Dudes, who the hell cares if ATI cheated or not, don't make me laugh suddenly everybody is a pathetic moral troll, what? are you guys telling me that Nvidia doesn't cheat?? LOL!!LOL!!LOL!!, just as much or more than ATI, but again WHO the hell cares, let the ATI and NVidia fight to death, in the end we'll be the winners with a better product at a better price. But please you guys seem to be in love with Nvidia, Nvidia this, Nvidia that, it reminds me of the good old times when there was a true king 3DFx and the Nvidia copied everything good that 3DFX had and made a better card, kind of ehat ATI is doing with Nvidia, so don't hold your breath for the GeForce 3 because chances are that ATI will eat Nvidia in a near future anyways.
November 8, 2001 9:56:58 AM

Hmm alot of no name no post strangers coming out attacking me lately.

regardless, nvidia has never been caught cheating, if you want to claim they have then so be it, your the one who looks ignorant in the end.

Pathetic moral troll? LoL.

I dont really care ati cheated, see theres this thing called a forum, and on it you discuss tech topics and answer other peoples questions, which I and others on both sides are doing.

Now run along little flamer, your bullshit comments are not welcome on this thread.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 8, 2001 10:08:53 AM

Dude I'm not attaking you at all, you don't even cross my mind, why would I waste my time attaking an stupid nerd, and Idiot like your self who spends the whole day posting and posting. Get a life!! Looser
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
November 8, 2001 10:19:35 AM

... all this makes me think I was probably right to hold off (not that I can actually afford it !) to get a GF2 MX card instead while the price settles down a bit.
Was originally going for a GF2 Ti (laugh all you want) then I decided it wasn't worth double the money for 20% performance gain.

(GF2 MX compared to GF3 Ti500 - quarter of the price, half the performance. )

of course, when you want the absolute bleeding edge, prepare to be gouged in the wallet....



"Just when you thought it was safe to log on..."
November 8, 2001 10:26:44 AM

nVidia did cheat!!!!!! Two words: Texture Compression.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
November 8, 2001 11:44:21 AM

Are you going to call me a poopie head now?

Run along little troll, you are not welcome here.


AMD_MAN texture compression is not cheating. Also nvidia didnt invent it, as I recall ATI invented texture compression,(and nvidia couldnt get it to work right at first) perhaps it was 3dfx who invented it, but I am positive it was not nvidia.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 8, 2001 11:57:05 AM

"I'm not attaking you at all...stupid nerd, and Idiot"

ROFL. Kind of a dumbass aren't ya?
November 8, 2001 12:05:52 PM

Good point. However, I think that XP is a new beast of an OS. What needs to happen, is that drivers need to be streamlined for it, learn to use it's advantages and strengths, and then you won't see that sort of drop off.

XP does look bad at the moment, however, anyone who is getting a new computer and isn't sure what OS to get, XP is still the way to go. However, XP may not be the best Upgrade path at the moment.

60 FPS, 70 FPS, 80 FPS Crash!
Daylight comes and I have to go to work :frown:
November 8, 2001 12:47:41 PM

Interesting. ATI told me that all boards that they manufacture with 8500 have a 400MHZ Ramdac. They aslo said they don't manufacture the OEM cards. However, they couldn't confirm the origins of my GPU by the serial number.
So...

Looks like I'll need to talk to the retailer and find out what is going on.

On a side note, ATI's tech support is quite nice, knowledgable about their products, and was very easy to deal with. Perhaps one of the better tech support experiences I've had with a manufacturer.

60 FPS, 70 FPS, 80 FPS Crash!
Daylight comes and I have to go to work :frown:
November 8, 2001 12:53:04 PM

Texture compression isn't cheating. Otherwise everyone since the days of the S3 Virge have been guilty. 3dfx, ATI, nVidia, Matrox...

hehe you might think nVidia is cheating given their crappy implementation of texture compression. They don't get any actual performance benifit from it looking ugly though.
November 8, 2001 7:33:40 PM

I agree with Mat completly here (although calm the language down, you always looked professional and acted like one before, so keep that image!) ATi is cheating, or rather lying to sell. I would not get something that would make me have bad quality to get more performance, without an option for it. I'm going with Nvidia for sure, ATi has done enough and will be punished in some way. 3dfx went down because of their poor overpricing and performance, Ati will go down if the drivers don't give the truth. I don't see Nvidia doing anything wrong so far. Their cards give top of the line performance, new drivers that boost your card making you think you payed less for much more than your card, which is not cheating but rewarding. Don't bash Mat, he is right, and this is a board to discuss not to flame each others.
November 8, 2001 7:57:09 PM

I didn't say texture compression was cheating. I meant that nVidia's aweful implementation of texture compression (just to get an extra 2fps) is cheating! When did nVidia start all this? In the Detonator 3 drivers!!!! I'd call that deliberate cheating, Matisaro!

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by AMD_Man on 11/08/01 06:43 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
November 8, 2001 8:08:13 PM

Did ATI Cheat on it's drivers? Yes.
Do I think they shouldn't have? Yes.
Was their performance without the cheats still pretty good? I believe so yes.
Will ATI learn from this? We can hope.

What I am interested in, is ATI deciding to open up the manufacturing front with it's OEMs. Hopefully, this will lead to them allowing for people to put their chipsets on other graphic boards. An Elsa R200 could be fun ;) 


60 FPS, 70 FPS, 80 FPS Crash!
Daylight comes and I have to go to work :frown:
November 8, 2001 8:56:43 PM

I'd have to agree with ATI's Tech support being the best I've ever come across which is the reason why I held off on buying a GF3.

I've had ATI cards in all computers I've built for about 5 years. The reason why I stick with them is because of the service I get when there is a problem. When my ATI RAGE FURY PRO dvd playback froze within 2 seconds of initializing, they gave me BIOS settings to try, emailed them back, didn't work. They CALLED ME at my house and went through some more troubleshooting finally coming to the conclusion that the dvd playback on the card was bad. I sent it to their new york office, they tested it, found it bad, sent me a new card.

Worked perfectly.

OC my Radeon 8500? k
CPU: 285, 295, 305
memory: 510, 520, 530
what was that? :eek: 
November 9, 2001 12:47:15 AM

Hey Troll in Mid-Novembers Drivers. Quake 3 is fixed so can you shut your month on that issue.

Nice Nvidia and ATi users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
November 9, 2001 12:52:30 AM

Got a Gigabyte R8500 and R7500 coming.

Nice Nvidia and ATi users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
November 9, 2001 6:15:57 AM

You calling me stupid rcf?

Very professional.


The damage is done, the inital reviews are out with the tweaked quake 3 cheat results are in them, and the public backlash was tremendous, of course they will disable their "feature" in the latest drivers.


Eden, I have tried to maintain professionalism in this entire debate, but some people in this and other threads have attacked me for debating my points, and it pissed me off to some extent, but I am calm now and will return to my general demeanor.



~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 9, 2001 10:20:55 AM

You keep on saying "ATi cheats" in every other post. Well when mid-november comes and they fix it. Then what are you going to bash with ?

Nice Nvidia and ATi users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
November 9, 2001 10:24:24 AM

When mid november comes I will say ATI cheated in its release for review 8500's, which they did. If you have a problem with good friendly non insulting debate, perhaps you should go to another forum, because calling someone stupid because they arent telling everyone that ATI cheated, but they will stop cheating in November. Is not a good way to look mature.

~Matisaro~
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
~Tbird1.3@1.5~
November 9, 2001 11:03:08 AM

LoL your a real life troll. I cleaned up lately and your the one posting trash now. Well Nvidia cheated with the DET 3 drivers with texture Compression to get 2+ fps in quake3. Well i dont attack with that every post. You keep bring up this topic and nothing else but ATi Cheats.

Nice Nvidia and ATi users get a Cookie.... :smile: Yummy :smile:
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
November 9, 2001 12:31:39 PM

Bront, about your OEM...
1. The RAMDAC *IS* 400, not 350. It's a driver error that makes the card report a 350, even though it really is 400. The reporting error should be fixed in the next driver release.

2. About the clock speeds--You probably saved about 50-60 bucks going with the OEM. Yea, it's 250/500, yet it should EASILY overclock to 275/550 with stock cooling (e.g., retail levels). I have mine at 300/570 (stock cooling, no artifacts).

Thus, don't RMA it just yet. Play around with it.

<font color=blue>Jesus saves...</font color=blue><font color=red>and takes half damage!</font color=red>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
November 9, 2001 1:57:40 PM

I had read somewhere that the OEM Radeon 8500s have lower quality, slower RAM chips in them, not just a lower clock speed. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

btw, I had an OEM 8500 and returned it because I was pissed off like bront. I got a GF3 and like it. With the 8500 there were noticeably more artifacts in games I played than with the GF3. That's just my observance, so take it as that.

I also agree with Matisaro that what ATI did with Q3 was wrong. If they fix it and the 8500 turns out like it is supposed to, I will consider them the next time I buy a card, but for now I'm going with a proven card (performance and compatibility wise)--GF3.

Save the children :smile:
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
November 9, 2001 2:07:50 PM

Who cares if they remove the Q3 "optimization" in the next driver release? Quake 3 is old enough that its only real value is as a benchmark. When you compromise image quality without telling anyone to get more fps, you negate the reason for the benchmark (a performance comparison of software with EQUAL systems and SETTINGS)--and thus the reason for Quake 3.

As Matisaro said, the damage is already done. Who cares if they fix the Q3 problem unless, somehow they get substantially MORE fps without their "optimization". LoL!

Save the children :smile:
November 9, 2001 3:22:42 PM

Actualy, it doesn't overclock correctly. I get a large amount of artifacts when I try to, strange 3D protrusions that stay around even when the perspective changes.

However, I get a 3DMark score of 7405 like that as opposed to my 7073 score with it not overclocked, so It's still a great performer. I'll straighten it out with the store.

486/SX 25 @ 256. Anyone have any dry ice to cool down the system?
November 9, 2001 3:26:00 PM

Quote:
btw, I had an OEM 8500 and returned it because I was pissed off like bront. I got a GF3 and like it. With the 8500 there were noticeably more artifacts in games I played than with the GF3. That's just my observance, so take it as that.

I got artifacts in 98 under most circumstances, but didn't have any problems under 2000. The artifacts did clear up with the Omegadrive driver in 98.

We'll see about returning it. I'm getting sick of sending cards back and forth.

486/SX 25 @ 256. Anyone have any dry ice to cool down the system?
November 9, 2001 8:11:59 PM

I just bought a pci slot fan to stick next to my radeon 8500.. seems to fix that problem with the odd little protusions and such..

Overclock? more. More. MORE. MORE!!

OC my Radeon 8500? k
CPU: 285, 295, 305
memory: 510, 520, 530
what was that? :eek: 
November 9, 2001 8:27:29 PM

I'll give that a try. Thanks for the tip.

Chesnuts roasting on an open CPU
Bill Gates nipping at your wallet
!