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Finally got monitor info, need some help here...

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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November 18, 2001 5:31:46 PM

After pilfering through the disorder, breaking necks, and all the things that happen when you go to the store, underground of your appartment... I found the damn monitor box finally, which is at my grandparents' house, and finally found its capabilities which I desperatly needed to know for my purchase of the Asus GF ti200 DLX, for the 3d Glasses. My question is to know the following:

-Upon reading the box, it says Horizontal Frequency, and Vertical Freq, the VF says it's around 70-120hz. Is the Vertical one the freq we use to determine monitor frequency?
-The other thing is, the max it goes is 1280*1024, but how do I know the max freq at resolutions like 1024*768? I need that res to play well, and I gotta know if the 120hz max is appliable on all res, as it doesn't specify which.
-Also if 120hz is the max, does it mean it's ok to put it at 120? Or is it a bit risky?
-Another thing too, is that the 3d Glasses need to check the monitor's capabilities to work at a decent frequency, unless I disable that check, but how would they detect it, if the monitor does not have a driver for it, and is put as "Plug and Play" monitor? Would it still look inside the monitor speccs and test it without probs?

I appreciate the help guys, this is the last thing I need, to finally know if I can experience the stereo mode like it should, without blowing my monitor or buying a new one!

Btw the brand is a Vision Lab GM710, which I looked EVERYWHERE on the net, even the company site, and it doesn't show, plus the FCC code and nothing, so I am stuck with generic PNP drivers by Windows, so I can't specify frequency.

More about : finally monitor info

November 18, 2001 11:33:54 PM

Hey, Eden ...

This is the second time I've spent a couple of hours, browsing around the Net, looking for monitor drivers for your Vision-Lab. This time I decided to add to your thread.

Unless you can locate someone with this particular monitor ... finding a driver is just not going to happen. The company website is just a shell, and it's very likely that Vision-Lab no longer exists.

What you are going to have to do is use your common sense when figuring out the basic specs of the monitor, and perhaps download a program like PowerStrip to set up custom display resolutions. PowerStrip may even help you detect the basic specs for your monitor, even without a driver.

<A HREF="http://www.entechtaiwan.com/ps.htm" target="_new">http://www.entechtaiwan.com/ps.htm&lt;/A>

Generally, with a good 17" monitor, you are going to be looking at a normal refresh rate of 82-85Hz at 1024x768x32. The refresh rate that the monitor can support is going to decrease, the higher the resolution.

The vertical refresh rate is not the sole frequency used ... it's really a combination of both the horizontal and the vertical averaged out. Mentioning only one frequency (and the lowest) is a marketing ploy meant to confuse a prospective buyer.

The maximum resolution for your monitor is probably no more than 72-75Hz at 1280x1024. It may even be less. Anything higher would be odd. A max supported resolution of 1280x1024 is just not that high ... although not unusual for a 17".

The monitor will not run at 120Hz at all resolutions, I guarantee. No monitor can run at the maximum refresh rate at all resolutions ... and 120Hz is very high; certainly more than your monitor can support, regardless of the resolution. If you set the refresh rate that high, the monitor will be severely damaged ... most assuredly beyond repair. It doesn't take very long at an intolerably high refresh rate to destroy a monitor ... and you won't even be able to see the display well enough to change anything back. All you'll be able to do is restart the machine, and then look at the "melted" areas on the screen ... if it works at all.

I suspect that if you ran the monitor at around 75-82-85Hz, at one of these refresh rates, the monitor display will look the best. You could probably push up the refresh rate slightly at a different, lower resolution, such as 800x600, but it shouldn't be a large increase. Actually, the monitor might not support a higher refresh rate at all, regardless of the resolution. I've seen that before, on cheaper units.

A good thing to do would be, (best ...if you can identify the tube manufacturer by any written specifications pasted on the back), to locate a monitor that appears to have similar attributes. Find a few older monitors that support the same maximum resolution, and check out the average numbers. There are not many companies that make CRT tubes ... and there should be several brands of monitors that are much like your unit.

In that case, you could re-detect your monitor in Windows as another brand, and load that driver, instead of using the "real" driver.

Techs used to do this all the time with modems and video cards, if a working driver was not available.

If the 3D glasses detect the monitor's capabilities incorrectly, set everything manually. Whether the glasses will work without a monitor driver, I can't say; you'll have to find out the hard way.

Or ... you could invest in another monitor made by a company that still exists, so that you can have some decent technical support, drivers, and few less headaches.

That's my two cents.

Toejam31

<font color=red>My Rig:</font color=red> <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847" target="_new">http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?rigid=6847&lt;/A>
____________________________________________________

<font color=purple>"Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."</font color=purple>
November 19, 2001 12:03:35 AM

LoL. Go on admit it. You enjoy browsing & sifting for info.

<b><font color=blue>~scribble~</font color=blue></b> :wink:
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November 19, 2001 12:30:25 AM

Hoowee that was some big writing!
But if it says 120hz in Vertical, so how can I know which? I do beleive it is running at 80hz or less for sure though, but why the hell would Asus/Nvidia recommend 120hz if not many can be using that! Monkeyspank could here, he told me, but I dunno how in 800*600.
a b U Graphics card
November 19, 2001 1:53:29 AM

You can write your own monitor driver using Powerstrip, or choose the wrong monitor from the list in windows and hope it works.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
November 19, 2001 10:40:31 AM

That's a bit risky there ain't it? Also can Powerstrip detect my monitor info? I mean ain't there one utility out there which can determine the max refresh rate I can get without problems?
And still, the frequencies options we can choose in Windows, what unit do they use to mesure? I mean is it the Vertical or Horizontal Freq?
a b U Graphics card
November 19, 2001 1:52:25 PM

Powerstrip is supposed to be able to detect monitor info.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
November 19, 2001 9:03:55 PM

Hey Eden, you've got me thinking about this and i am wondering if the recommended refresh rate of 120 relates to the refresh rate of the glasses.
I could be way off the mark here but as you may know, these things work by alternately flickering on/off. Therefore having a refresh rate of sorts.

someone tell me if i am being thick.
November 19, 2001 9:44:58 PM

OK yes i am being thick.
I was just in the bath when it all started to make sense. (not comparing myself to einstien of course).
Remember i said that 3d would only work in 800x600? Well I had the refresh rate for the 3d set to 120. My monitor supports that rate at 800x600. If i put the res up to 1024x768, set the 3d refresh to 120 they dont work.... unless i disable the monitor check in the advanced tab. Then they do. at 1024x768 my screen refreshes at 100. The glasses work at that res if i set them to 100. (or 120 if monitor check disabled).
it is starting to make sense to me now.
Of course the glasses need to refresh at the same rate as the monitor or they wouldnt give the right effect. a rate of 120 in 3d is an effective overall rate of 60, because the screen needs to refresh twice in order to give both of your eyes one complete picture. Makes sense that they recommend you can get this rate, because anything under 60 Hz is bound to cause some people some problems.

I dont know how risky it is to try to run your monitor over its capabilities, i am sure someone else can help with that.
The asus drivers supplied give you a quick tweak to change the refresh rate of your monitor, which is how i know what my monitor can do.

I hope this goes a small way to answering your questions. do remember.. there is one good way to find out for sure. And it is still a good card, even without the glasses.
November 19, 2001 10:32:51 PM

monkey you just made sense dude! If it is true that Asus' software actually detects the monitor's capabilities for refresh rates, I think I should have no probs then, and play in a lower res, but still get high refresh rates! But what confuses me, is that you mean 120hz as monitor RR or the addition of both the glasses and the mon? So this means I would want my monitor running at 60hz and up? If not then it doesn't make sense as not many have this type of monitor to run 120hz at high res! If not, then I think I understand why the Monitor Check is essential to it. But the only thing remaining that worries me, is that if it doesn't detect it cuz it is set as a standard PNP monitor, but maybe I'm wrong, maybe it really goes through the hardware inside...I HOPE!

And still what should I beleive of the box? the vertical's max at 120hz?
November 21, 2001 10:48:36 PM

hello??? Monkey?
Something I also wanted to know, is that do you play the Stereo when you want? This means that you do not enable it forever right? If that is the case, you use a Hotkey in game, that activates the 3d huh? How does it work and what do you see during the transforming? I'm very appreciating for your patience, cuz you're the only person around who has the same card I want, and I wanted to know since, how the 3d Glasses work and how to make them work! I am still waiting to see how my mon and the glasses will work at lower RRs!
November 22, 2001 5:58:23 PM

Hi dude, i'm back again. Not been here for a while due to lousy dial up service.
this may take a few posts as i try to cover the different points. Are you sitting comfortably?

DISCLAIMER - This is my slant on things and not necessarily fact.

Firstly, i think the vertical RR is what is referred to in general as the refresh rate. This IS what you want to pay attention to.
My understandings of CRT (cathode ray tube) monitors is that there is a metal assembly at the far end of the tube called an electron gun. When power is applied to the gun it heats up and emits a stream of electrons. At the other end is the screen which is coated with phosphor. When a high voltage is applied to the screen it attracts the electrons that hit the phosphor and cause it to emit light. Different typed of phosphor emit different coloured light.
The electron gun fires electrons at one group of phosphors (a pixel) at a time. The gun starts with (as you look at it) the top left of the screen, going from left to right. When it gets to the right it starts on the next line down at the left again, until it has covered the entire screen. I think this is known as a raster scan. Therefore by the time the gun has done one vertical 'lap' it has refreshed the entire display once. The number of times it does this a second is measured in Hz. 120 Hz = 120 times per second.
The higher the resolution, the longer it takes the gun to cover the distance, which results in a lower RR.

OK, to apply this to your monitor...
your monitor has a max res of 1280*1024 and, it is safe to assume, a min res of 640*480. It has a max RR of 120Hz and a min of 70 according to the box. So at 640*480 it will refresh at 120Hz. At 1280*1024 it will be more like 70Hz. Plot this as a straight (i think) line on a graph and you can see your refresh rates at all resolutions. At 1024*768 you shold theoretically get around 90Hz. i think.. Not bad! :) 

Secondly, the glasses and the monitor need to refresh at the same rate. if the monitor is at 120, so are the glasses. But as per my previous post, if your eyes are getting two different pictures (3D), the monitor has to output twice as much info to stay at the same effective RR according to your eyes. Which it cant. So effectively your monitor may be running at 100Hz but your eyes are only seeing 50Hz. Anything much lower than that, even i wouldn't recommend cos you will get headaches. And long periods of this may well damage your eyes. Asus play it safe by recommending 120, but this is not necessary, only recommended (which is why you can disable the monitor check). AMD recommend you dont overclock your CPU but do we listen to them???? Do please remember though -- CPUs are replacable but eyes are not. Not yet anyway.

Thirdly, as you will be spending a fair amount of cash on a vid card, why not save up and get a nice second hand 19 or even 21" trinitron screen. It really is worth it. you may be able to trade in your current monitor for a spanky new one.

I find some games work well in 3D, some dont. i like FPS games and like to have them on high res so i dont use the glasses for those. I do use them for some slower games. I will activate the glasses before starting any particular game and not during, based on which game i am playing.

WHAT THIS MEANS TO YOU:
I cant be certain that the p+p drivers will work with the 3d glasses. If not it is purely due to drivers and not hardware. Unlike eyes, drivers ARE replaceable. Toejam has said about using different drivers so with a little time you should be fine in theory. Please dont take this as gospel though - you know what computers are like.
when using the glasses i personally wouldnt go below 90Hz as i value my vision. According to your box and my maths, your monitor will get at least 90Hz (effective 45Hz in 3d)at 1024*768.

I think you should go and buy the card. It is a tasty bit of kit even without the glasses. But i am basing this suggestion on the assumption that the rest of your hardware is up to scratch -- does your MB support AGP 4x? Have you got a decent amount of RAM? What CPU.. etc etc.

-- and so ends my dissertation on monitors. I expect my PhD through the post next week. tee hee.
November 22, 2001 7:09:00 PM

hehe the PhD ain't too far...

Thanks for all this, it helps me know more now!

So in conc, the 120hz Vertical is indeed a feasable RR if I want to play with the glasses, right? Besides I would play them in 640*480 only anyway, and in shooters! You said you enable them, what do you mean? Do you use the hotkey mode or have to go through the Display Settings?
I could go for a 19", but my money is limited to a PC upgrade! I am getting a huge AthlonXP system with much of the best, so don't worry about 4x AGP or whatever! And I think the monitor is actually a Trinitron tube, not sure, but the Vision Lab shows it. I will look at the back again to see. I will also ask about the trade-in, but I doubt my local shop will accept.
It is of no doubt that I will enjoy the card, it's not just the glasses that make it all worth it! But I do enjoy using them occasionally, and ranting about it at school!! :)  Man they will all look jaleous... but nevertheless the GF3 cards are the way to go, and any of my games will run at max performance, regardless of card speed or whatsoever. Truly the only thing that worries me is the monitor damaged! It's that stupid PnP driver... I will however, if you say Vertical RR is 120hz max, put it at 100hz just to play safe again, and play at 640*480. I hope that monitor check is worth it...

Thanks again A LOT, I mean it!
November 22, 2001 9:52:13 PM

No worries mate.
I'm not 100% about other OSs but definately in win98SE, in the windows display properties box, on settings tab, click advanced, click adaptor. In there you can select 'optimal' as the refresh rate. your monitor will run at the best refresh rate possible at that resolution. very useful.
Asus drivers (also nvidia's own) provide you with an icon in the system tray. Using that you are only about 3 clicks away from enabling/disabling the 3D stereoscopic mode. You can do this in seconds from your desktop. Piece of cake man.
you will be fine running at 800*600 and getting a refresh of 100Hz. This will provide a good 3d experience and should keep your eyes clean. The video card can handle much higher res and still keep the graphics flowing. If youre not using the glasses, try whacking the res up to 1280*1024 for a better game.

Good choice of card dude. Have fun. Dont forget to check out a loop of 3dmark 2001 with 3d enabled. It rocks.
November 23, 2001 1:01:41 AM

Damn this is what I wanted! The Optimal RR was the thing that kept me from knowing what was inside my head! I forgot about this!
So this means at the Optimum, then the Asus one will also use this one, without any problems! (I didn't think I'd get such solution, but it makes it all so reassuring now) But just so you know, I can't choose any RR other than Adapter Default and Optimal, for some reason the Voodoo won't do it, or the monitor Pnp driver is that way... in any case the OPTIMAL thing makes it a good thing. But do I have to switch screens so that the Asus Stereo Enable would also use the current Optimal, or when I enable it, it switches to the res, with the Optimal RR for that one?
BTW I should get 3dMark, to see how my current PC does, and the new one! (think about a leap from a P2 350 with 128SDRAM and voodoo 3 2000 PCI, to an AthlonXP 1.4ghz with 256DDR and V8200T2 Deluxe!!)
I have tried once the 1280*1024, and it wasn't that good actually, the screen was already not well sized, so I have to make the monitor adjustments, and frankly it's too small... I think I'll keep 1024*768, it is generally the recommended one for 17" monitors...

Btw, did you try Sacrifice? It's pretty kewl huh? It's smooth, beautiful and the special effects are awesome! Good ol' GF3 does the job for anything...


EDIT: Ok something is wrong here, I just decided to look at the back label of the monitor, it has some voltage info and FCC model, then I saw Frequency: 60hz/50hz.... WTH is that all about??? How could the box say otherwise? Something wrong here?.......no wait, I visited their site, looked at other monitor models (since mine is no longer there) and this looks like voltage frequency, so never mind!
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 11/23/01 11:04 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
!