How to upgrade

[Guest]

I have a P3 500Mhz with a TNT2 Ultra card. Performance is pretty ok in most 3D games(after some tweaking) but i'm not satisfied with some newer games. I don't wanna spend a lot of money on this so i wonder if buying a GeForce2 Titanium or PRO would increase the performace a lot or if i better save the money for a faster CPU?

 

[yiliang]

Hi there. I once had a similar system setup like yours. I assume u're using a slot 1 P3, pc100 SDRAM, AGP TNT2U and BX or VIA694x. You know, if u don't want to spend much(like changing a new motherboard), the best thing to get most out of your hardware is getting a more powerful CPU. Old P3 has 1/2 speed L2, really needs a upgrade. However, u can't upgrade to a P3 coppermine_133 if you're using BX because BX can't work relibly at 133FBS. Since BX are AGP2/3, if you run at 133FBS, AGP would be at 89Mhz and your AGP card will be smoked. But PCI shouldn't have a problem if the board can run PCI at 1/4 speed of the FBS when FBS>124Mhz. You can find a 100Mhz FBS coppermine(slot1 or FCPGA-370). Or you can get a new Celeron 1G and above. Yes, straight to 1G (not 1.2G, coz lower voltege required). P3_500 hardly providing enough horsepower to ur TNT2U. Also make sure your memory is running at 100Mhz,CL2. But seriously, buying a new motherboard can offer you much more flexability for upgrade and better performence.
And almost forget, the simplest way is to increase your FBS a little. As long as your FBS is<108Mhz(108/3=36Mhz for PCI), it's safe enough to get the extra a few Mhz for your TNT2U (108x5=540Mhz, 40Mhz more, not bad)Oh, last thing, don't use the lasted Nvidia driver coz they're optimzed for GF and up, use the 6.xx driver set for best. Good tuning.

Once I used my i386/34+i387 and 4 MB Ram for CAD...

 

[Guest]

First, thank's a lot for your great reply, really helpful to me!

Yep, you assumed right and it's a 440BX motherboard.
I'd also prefer a new motherboard but i need to do it the cheap way right now so i think i'll go for a Celeron. As i understand i'll first need a "converter" for slot1 to socket for the new celeron to fit. However are you sure I could only use the 1GHz and not the 1.2GHz?

Thanks again
/Figjet

 

[Dani_mq]

If you are going to get a new motherboard why dont you get a duron with a ddr board, you'll have plenty of room for upgrades up to the Xp procesors, with the celeron your pretty much at the top of that motherboard.

 

[Crashman]

YOu could get a few miles out of a better card. If your motherboard supports a 133MHz FSB, and your PIII is the 500E, you can overclock it to 733 by raising the FSB to 133, provided you are using PC133 RAM.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[Guest]

Thanks guys,
I think i've figured the best solution for me now(price/performance).
Check this out: http://www.powerleap.com/Products/iP3T.htm
With this adapter i can use a Celeron II 1.2 GHz "Tualatin".
I've seen benchmarks with this and a system like mine that are very good!

 

[xxsk8er101xx]

don't listen to anyoe that tells you to buy a cpu to increase gaming performance! I have a 1.4ghz cpu with the ATI AIW radeon and i get about 3100 in 3dmark2001. With my old duron 750 i got about a 3100. For a tnt2 i'd probably get about a 1000. No matter what cpu speed i have it'll be about a 1000.

get a new graphics card. a geforce2 will help a lot as far as graphics.... as for divx encoding and photoshop and 3dstudio or a similiar program ya that could use a faster cpu but not a PC game.

It's all in the graphics card when it comes to games!

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by xxsk8er101xx on 12/12/01 11:48 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Crashman]

I get about 15% better scores with my PIII than my Celeron, clock for clock, both Coppermine. I got about 20% better scores by overclocking my PIII 700 to 933. So it does make a difference when your below the minimum the card likes.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[xxsk8er101xx]

3dmark2001

3151 2001-12-6 1024*768*16 ATI RADEON DDR
AMD Athlon(tm) XP/MP/4 1400MHz

3124 2001-12-6 1024*768*16 ATI RADEON DDR
AMD Athlon(tm) Processor 1300MHz

2729 2001-12-6 1024*768*16 ATI RADEON DDR
AMD Duron(tm) Processor 700MHz

3dmark2000
5605 2001-8-10 1024*768*16 Generic VGA
AMD Athlon(tm) Processor 1288MHz

4772 2001-4-15 1024*768*16 ATI RADEON DDR
AMD Duron(tm) Processor 700MHz

2030 2000-11-6 1024*768*16 NVIDIA RIVA TNT
AMD Duron(tm) Processor 733MHz

1881 2000-11-5 1024*768*16 NVIDIA RIVA TNT
AMD Duron(tm) Processor 728MHz

1857 2000-11-3 1024*768*16 NVIDIA RIVA TNT
AMD Duron(tm) Processor 700MHz

OK now notice the difference in numbers! from a duron 700 to a xp 1.4ghz i gained what 300 points. from a duron 700 to a athlon 1.3ghz i gained about 900 points.

with the same cpu and mhz from a tnt to a better graphics card it's more then double. from 1800 to 4700.

I hope that is more then proof for ya! A geforce2 GTS or a PRO will give you even better scores then my slow ass ATI AIW radeon.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>

 

[Crashman]

If you download the VID pin assignments from Intel, you'll probably find how you can raise the detected voltage, so you can overclock the FSB with stability, if you like.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[xxsk8er101xx]

from a tnt to a ATI AIW radeon (which is clocked slower then the normal radeon) i got over 100% increase i'd like to see you beat that with a cpu upgrade!

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>

 

[Guest]

Did a test at a friend...He got a GeForce2 MX card and a Celeron. A timedemo in Q3 the result increased about 30% when we upclocked the CPU from 600 to 1000 MHz.
With my TNT2 Ultra and P3-500 i get about 2500 points in 3dMark2000, wonder how much more i can get out of that card but it should help with a faster cpu?

 

[xxsk8er101xx]

not much. you would doulbe your score with a faster gfx card. geforce2MX can't be considered faster. my card is faster then the geforce2mx.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>

 

[yiliang]

What's up? I've been gone for a few days and I saw a handful of posts. Well, I'm glad to be at service. About the Celeron1.2G, it's a new version of celeron. It uses 0.13 micron manufacturing processes, thus it requires very low voltage, around 1.3v. I don't think many BX support that low. If your borad supports it, then congratulations, new celeron1.2G has a 256K L2, like a cooppermine, but faster. About "xxsk8er101xx" said "don't listen to anyoe that tells you to buy a cpu to increase gaming performance" you used 3dmark2001 for example. But how much can we really trust the damn 3Dmark? Different system setup can't be compared head to head. I tell you if you use a PCI 3d card(a GF2 Pro for example), very low score will you see. About overclocking BX, I repeat, DON'T USE 133FBS OR YOUR Gfx CARD WILL BE SMOKED. I'm afraid that"Crashman" is alway giving inproper advise about overclock a BX and a PIII Klamath(at least I've seen twice). "YOu could get a few miles out of a better card. If your motherboard supports a 133MHz FSB, and your PIII is the 500E, you can overclock it to 733 by raising the FSB to 133, provided you are using PC133 RAM."
First you alway assume people're using a PIII-xxxE, which isn't alway true. Second, increase FBS to 133 will put the AGP carded in great danger. AGP (I mean the port)is desighed to run at 66Mhz, so AGP2x=133Mhz=66Mhzx2, this what BX opperates at 100Mhz FBS. But when you change FBS to 133Mhz, AGP is running at 89Mhz, which will make the whole system instable and risk damage the AGP card forever. Why do you think Intel make i81x chipests? Not for fun, but to support AGP1/2 at 133FBS. Drop me private Msg if anyone has comments. Good luck upgrading figjet.

Once I used my i386/34+i387 and 4 MB Ram for CAD...

 

[Crashman]

I'm sorry, but you don't seem to know what your talking about. First of all, the iP3t converter he spoke of is a TUALATIN converter, that's what the "t" stands for. It has all the necessary hardqare to regulate it's own voltage and make the signal compatable, and works in most Slot 1 boards.
Second, I have used NUMEROUS cards on the BX@133 and NEVER damaged one. Sure, maybe an old Rage II card or something might not like it, but I've used a TNT2, i740, ATI Radeon LE, GeForce2 MX, MX200, and GTS on a BX at 133MHz FSB and NEVER seen damage even after prolonged gameplay or 3D-Mark 2000 in continuous loop for days! Most cards can handle 89MHz quite well!
I of coarse mentioned the fact that for him to reach 733@133, he would need the 500E. And for those who don't know any different, the Slot One version is in the SECC2 package. And for those who don't know any different, that's the Slot 1 PIII with one open side.

Oh, and AGP 2x is not 133MHz, but DDR133, which is 66MHz.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[yiliang]

Well, it's certainly interesting to see such a product. I admit that didn't check out the "iP3t" at first place. So if the motherboad is compatible with it, why the hell not getting one of such? BTW I thought Tualatin needs lower than 1.475 VCORE, than guess I was wrong.(I just check the Celeron Specs, it is 1.475v)
I know AGP2x isn't "actually clocked" at 133Mhz. That's why I wrote "AGP2x=133MHz=66Mhzx2". Besides, 133Mhz only means bandwith 133Mhz, so why can't I said AGP2x is 133Mhz?
I think it's not right to encourage people run BX at 133FBS. While they do get the performance gain, they're also risking system instablity. As I metoned before, "one of the main purpose of i81x chipest is to support AGP1/2 at 133FBS." If not, BX can live forever. Running BX at 133FBS won't nessecerily alway damage the Video card, but involves a great risk. Check out this from THG: "http://www6.tomshardware.com/mainboard/00q2/000405/150mhzbus-02.html". No one says "BX at 133FBS is never going to work out". I agree you can "run BX at 133FBS", but you take risks. There's only one exception. I know a few Taiwain Motherboard maker mod the BX board w/ additional ICs and clock generators to fix the problem at 133FBS. "I've used a TNT2, i740, ATI Radeon LE, GeForce2 MX, MX200, and GTS on a BX at 133MHz FSB and NEVER seen damage even after prolonged gameplay or 3D-Mark 2000 in continuous loop for days! Most cards can handle 89MHz quite well!" Oops, "Most cards", well good luck then. And you don't want your Gfx card have very low life cycle(a few days? what about a year or so?) Your most cards didn't had a problem doesn't mean other's won't! You don't need to show how many cards you tested to make you right. I collect Gfx card and I know them. Overclocking is risking, everyone know. In fact, I don't think OC a PIII-500(even 500E)to 733 will make it long live. Sure a few months, though there're faster and faster CPUs out there, why do I need them if mine's already good enough?

Once I used my i386/34+i387 and 4 MB Ram for CAD...

 

[yiliang]

About 3dmark2000 and TNT2U, I get 33xx-34xx with Cleron 900(100x9), 256MB(CL2), Abit SL6, 100Mhz FBS win98, dx8.0, Nvidia v6.7.5 WHQL driver set. And I think that probably as much as you can get from a TNT2U

Once I used my i386/34+i387 and 4 MB Ram for CAD...

 

[yiliang]

Another reference from THG about running AGP at 89Mhz: http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/00q1/000321/agp-overclock-01.html.

Once I used my i386/34+i387 and 4 MB Ram for CAD...

 

[Crashman]

That Tom, quite a card! The TNT2 model I used on the system WAS a Viper V770, which according to him failed to post. Hmmmm. Oh well, all the GeForce2 series works at that speed, even the crappy MX200. All the Radions work too. Notice no mention of any card "burning up".

Out of all the guys I've recommended to upgrade to 133MHz FSb on a BX, only ONE had a consistant failure for it to work, and NONE had any damage done. So the smart money is on bumping it up to 133, with nothing to loose! Quit being so cynical, I'm a professional, I wouldn't recommend anything I wouldn't put my own money on with a customer's computer. I do all kinds of things that go against the grain of more cautious technicians and have not had any failures because of it. All my work is warranteed.



What's the frequency, Kenneth?

 

[yiliang]

I'm not trying to argue who's right and who's not. All I want to say is, as your example of the V770, just proves not every card works, even they're the same brand. You can't guarrantee every single piece hardware(CPU, Gfx card, sound card... etc.) is identical, (so someone can overclock a Celeron600 to 900, while the other one fails with a same CPU). You can't take chances on it. Will you overclock a CPU and sell it to people because you've tested on you computer? I hope not. And I hope Intel and AMD won't OC cpus instead of develop new CPUs Either!

Once I used my i386/34+i387 and 4 MB Ram for CAD...

 

[Flyboy]

Dude, I don't know if can part with my 440BX...you sure your up to it?

Catheter and Caffeine IV are in place. Let's PLAY.