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What I don't like about the Radeon 8500...

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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December 30, 2001 8:35:28 PM

Well after 4 days of playing around with the Radeon 8500, I'll list what I don't like about it, because it's a lot fewer things than what I do like about it.

1.) <b>OVERCLOCKING SUX!</b>
Sure, I can reach 300/300, but what's the point if my performance doesn't increase significantly. That barely gets me ~200 points in 3dMark2001. Forget it, it's not worth the hassle.

2.) <b>WINXP devours performance</b>
Under ideal conditions in Win98SE, a Radeon 8500 can beat a GeForce3 Ti500 in some tests but ATI really needs to work on those XP drivers!

3.) <b>Stuck with MMC7.1!</b>
Why hasn't ATI updated the MMC for the TV-WONDER yet? The last update was in July! A lot of new releases came out but none are TV-WONDER compatible. So now I'm stuck with the less than stellar MMC 7.1 for a while.

I guess those are my main beefs with the Radeon 8500. If ATI can release an updated driver to fix them, I'll be happy.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor

More about : radeon 8500

December 30, 2001 8:45:04 PM

LOL!
Having second thoughts about paying $250 for an 8500?
December 30, 2001 8:48:32 PM

Not at all....

I know ATI will release a fix in very quickly.
The Radeon 8500 is an excellent card. All cards have pros and cons however. I thought this would be beneficial for people trying to consider between the cards.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
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December 30, 2001 9:06:33 PM

But ATI is known for bad drivers, so it may not be fixed, or when it is, anothe rbug will arise.

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
December 30, 2001 9:27:42 PM

Agh, I've tried ATI service. It's unbeatable! If they can have a to-your-door-exchange service then I know they'll fix the bugs.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
December 30, 2001 9:29:55 PM

Customer service does not provethe capability of their programmers. Also, consider that teh overclocking thing will still be there. Finally, do u realize that their processor, clock for clcok is weaker than the GF3's?

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
December 30, 2001 9:39:26 PM

Quote:

Finally, do u realize that their processor, clock for clcok is weaker than the GF3's?

You can only say that about the current drivers. That would also explain lack of increase in performance from overclocking. Clock for clock, the Radeon 8500 processor is superior to the GeForce3 without a doubt but the deciding factor in benchmarks is the memory architechure. It all comes down to two things: Bandwidth efficiency and driver efficiency

First of all, can ATI make solid drivers? I think so, but they need time. Secondly and more importantly, which technology is superior, Lightspeed architechure or HyperZ 2? That's the #1 deciding factor! No one can say for certain yet due to the immature nature of the drivers currently for the Radeon 8500. But as we saw with the Detonator XP drivers, the Radeon 8500 may in the end show off it's true strength. How long did it take nVidia to release the Dentontor XPs anyway (how long after the Geforce3 was released?)

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
December 30, 2001 10:39:42 PM

Thanks for the information, I've been debating on Ti200 or 8500 for some time now as a upgrade for my GTS. Everyone says the dvd playback is far beyond nvidias and I watch many dvds on my pc so thats a major draw. I dont really need anymore speed than I have now but wouldnt mind some and better image, the dvd is important to me. I love the GTS, its fast and stable, I use 4xFSAA on my dirt track racing sprint car game with 15 cars and its fast.

Whats the deal with that rice car signature about leaving a r8500 in the dust?
My firebird formula LT1 with 100shot of NOS will leave your Geforce3 in the DUST! actually my formula will leave your entire system and car in the dust.
What does that have to do with anything? BTW the formula with nos i really own.
for those who might be into cars as well as 'puters-
kb forged pistons, 1.6 alum roller rockers, 2800stall, ported and polished heads, flowmaster exhaust, moroso (k&n) intake kit, stock cam. I cant wait to find out 1/4mi time with my nos and slicks this spring!!!! die rice burners!

BTW I am using ATI MMC7.5 with my gts and TV wonder card, it works much better than 7.1 (i use XP). Check out my post under TV/Video cards I think I outlined everything to get it. You get transparency mode also for output if you have a ATI card with the tv wonder but none without.

Transparency mode is very cool to.

"dude your getting a dell", is that kid trying to say he wants to stick his 'dell' in you?
December 30, 2001 11:20:36 PM

Well, the Radeon 8500 is a very nice card. Sure, it has it's problems, but no card is perfect! All my favourite games play perfectly, silky smooth!

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
December 30, 2001 11:22:40 PM

Also, the lack of major increase in performance might be the fact that my CPU is the bottleneck.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
December 30, 2001 11:31:03 PM

Ew cars!
mine,
70 Mustang Mach 1, 351 Windsor stroked to 427 CID, Speed demon 750 carb dual plane manifold, Air Flow Research aluminum heads, Forged everything in the engine, 9 inch Mark Williams rear end... 560 hp, 12.02 1/4 mile at 126 on street tires.
December 30, 2001 11:39:34 PM

90% teh time, theory means nothing. Why does Ati need such a high RAM speed and GPU speed? b/c they aren't as efficient as NVidia's.

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
December 30, 2001 11:40:53 PM

Bet u my freind's $140,000 Porsche w/ NOS will woop ur car :wink: .

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
December 30, 2001 11:41:51 PM

It doesn't need the speed. It's just there to compete with nVidia, MHz-wise. You can't compare the hardware directly because the software (driver) isn't the same.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
December 30, 2001 11:44:43 PM

BTW, kinney, that link to the MMC7.5 is done. By any chance, could you please post the setup file to a server or something. MMC7.1 is my worst complaint. If I get rid of it, I'll be a happy camper!

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
December 30, 2001 11:45:27 PM

Then Ati's software team blows. That's a very bad quality. By the time good drivers come out, GF4 will probably be on teh market, blowing away R9000 probably by then, with excellent drivers.

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
December 30, 2001 11:49:59 PM

For 140,000 it better, for that much money i'd be runnning 6 second 1/4 miles
December 30, 2001 11:51:10 PM

Lol. It's mad fast.....he may even give it to me as my first car!

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
December 31, 2001 1:37:44 AM

I have always wondered why is overclocking vid cards so thrilling, while it merely gives any performance increase!
I dunno but when you look at the results, often they give out or literally "squeeze" 10 more FPS. Look at THG's overclockings, I dunno but Ocing vid cards just isn't that exctiting, even though the MHZ numbers seem big difference!
Same goes for the Rad 7500, look at its speed! More than the Ti500 and 8500, yet it's slower... but that we know why..

--
The other day I heard an explosion from the other side of town.... It was a 486 booting up...
December 31, 2001 8:54:20 AM

If the radeon8500 is clock for clock stronger than the gf3, how come a radeon @275/550 can barely keep up with a gf3 @240/500???

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
December 31, 2001 12:14:32 PM

Barely define barely all these vague terms whats up with that give examples please which test rig which game what drivers used ?
December 31, 2001 12:16:59 PM

check this out :
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Bruckschlegel, from ToMMTi-Systems who is also a registered ATI developer has received a new XP driver set and ran some quick tests with those. The new version number is 6.13.10. 6011. Improvements:

3DMark 2001 Default:
:: 3286 - 6117 (Game 4 Nature: 27.2)
:: 6011 - 6250 (Game 4 Nature: 40.3)
FS 2002, Comanche 4 & Aquamark (Aquanox) problems fixed
Different issues with DVI/TV/VGA modes fixed
HyperZ II optimizations
---------------------------------------------------------------------

SOURCE : WARP2SEARCH
December 31, 2001 4:36:15 PM

hahahahha! My quadro DCC got a max of 62FPS on nature, and 50's average!

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
December 31, 2001 4:49:38 PM

Yes, obiviously those tests were done on a very weak system, flamethrower! Look at the overall 3DMark2001 scores! That's LOW!!! And stop comparing your monster card to the Radeon 8500, which is 1/3 the retail price.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
December 31, 2001 4:58:34 PM

U just admitted R8500 costs $300:)  GF3 Ti500 is cheaper:) 

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
December 31, 2001 5:30:57 PM

Lol, the suggested retail price of the Radeon 8500 is $300 while the suggested retail price of the GeForce3 Ti500 is $350. However, both can be found for significantly less. I bought my Radeon 8500 for the equavalient of $250.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
December 31, 2001 5:50:10 PM

A mach 1 without a BOSS, now thats a shame.
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
December 31, 2001 6:08:59 PM

Why would I modify a Boss? I could have bought a Boss but if I did I would have restored it to original condition.
Only stupid people buy the low production models (i.e. Shelby's, Boss, Yenko Camaros) and modify them.
December 31, 2001 9:28:17 PM

I just got a thing for BOSS 302's and 429's. I really want a BOSS 302 for my 1966 mustang, or at least something bigger than the 289. There's only so much you can do with headers, and bigger carbs.
January 1, 2002 7:55:21 AM

www.anandtech.com

www.hardocp.com(radeon8500 revisited)

the only benchmark radeon wins (handily)is 3dmark2001.

The rest are mixxed bag nearly faster, or slightly slower than the gf3 ti 500

EXCEPT, for ut, which the gf3 smokes by some 20%!!!!!!!!!!


There, enough linkage for ya?

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!
January 1, 2002 11:21:50 AM

I disagree with the UT scores! I'm getting over 100fps average under UT in WinXP.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
January 1, 2002 11:36:27 AM

I also get ~100fps at 1600*1200! It's amazing! There's hardly a drop! Those scores listed by Anandtech are WRONG, at least for UT. I bet they had VSync on! When I had it on, I was getting scores in the same range.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
January 1, 2002 9:33:01 PM

You can only trust the benchmarks you make yourself.

<b><font color=green>Raleldor says in out of character,'PHAT LEWTZ!'</font color=green></b>
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 1, 2002 11:19:10 PM

Flame, you seem to have a love for nVidia and completely hate ATI. I actually like both cards, but with video cards what I want is what I see, and video quality of ATI outmatches nVidia. I think the reason ATI has so much trouble in their drivers is because of all the features their cards boast. I mean, there are a lot of features just in the 8500 alone not to mention their past cards. nVidia focuses more on speed and performance, which is a good thing, but when you are comparing 100fps vs. 90fps, who cares?? I sure the hell won't see the difference and will take the better image quality any day. I agree that in the past ATI has had some crappy drivers (ah, the Rage Pro days), but they are improving upon that and know that they need to turn their bad reputation for that around and are trying to. It's hard to kill a bad rep. though......

Jack Burton is a great man...
January 1, 2002 11:37:14 PM

Hey, also, did you know Serious Sam supports Truform now? If you go to ATI's site, they list all the games that take advantage of specific features in the Radeon 8500. Look for ones that support the SmartShader, Truform and Dual-monitors! Those are the truly amazing games! I'm assuming however the SmartShader games only make use of the DX8 ones not the updated DX8.1 ones, which means they'll look just as good on a GeForce3. Ahh, I'm really looking forward to DX8.1 games. This is when the Radeon 8500 will truly shine!

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
January 1, 2002 11:40:18 PM

Vid quality is the same from both cards..this has been covered numerous times. As for features...dude, the Quadro DCC has a lot of stuff goin on, and the drivers rock! Reason I hate Ati is cause peops buy their vid cards for performance..and they think that the Ati series is better. I have people here (well, ot in the forum, but at school and in my area) saying their 32MB SDR Radeon will destroy my Quadro. WTF! Plus Ati did lie about that thing in Q3. Finally, I just don't liek them as a company. Plus, performance matters most, cause in order for a card to last long, it needs top notch performance, not dual monitor bs no one uses. Plus, for people like me,u can never have a card that's too p[owerful.

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
January 1, 2002 11:41:41 PM

Oh, and when DX8.1 gets implemented, ur card will be too slow anyway.

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
January 1, 2002 11:50:23 PM

Quote:

I have people here (well, ot in the forum, but at school and in my area) saying their 32MB SDR Radeon will destroy my Quadro.

Those people obviously don't know what they're talking about! The Quadro DCC is in a different league from all the other "gamer-only" cards. The Radeon SDR is barely able to compete with the GeForce2MX, let alone even touch a Quadro. Just tell them it's retail cost, lol. They'll run off scared! Anyway, ATI lied, and maybe so did AMD (according to Fugger)? Is there a trend here? Well, it tells me that there is no 100% truthful company. I mean, DDR RAM is said to have a bandwidth of 2.1GB/s but it doesn't even come near that? Noooooo and we don't care! Why? Because we know RAM is not 100% efficient. We know about latency and and bandwidth requirement of different apps. The Radeon 8500 does have top-notch performance plus a whole load of extra features!

As for this:
Quote:

Plus, for people like me,u can never have a card that's too p[owerful.

Had you actually paid the full $1000 on that Quadro DCC, I don't think you'd be as happy with it, hehe j/k :smile:

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 1, 2002 11:55:55 PM

Isn't the Quadro a workstation card???? Geeze, a FireGL 8700 would blow that thing away....

Jack Burton is a great man...
January 1, 2002 11:59:04 PM

Not to mention the 128MB FireGL 8800 monster! hehe!

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
January 2, 2002 12:00:45 AM

Haha. No. This guy tested the Quadro DCC against it. The Quadro smoked it!

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
January 2, 2002 12:06:21 AM

Disregard that comment, thought u said GL4. As for the GL8800, I dunno.... In 3D S Max, it's never bandwith that's an issue, it's processing power. Quadro DCC w/ maxtreme would probably still beat it, tie at the least. Plus look at NVidia's drivers....the performance improvement u get for a GF3, quadro dcc gets double that I have noticed!

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 2, 2002 12:12:26 AM

Uh, that's not what I see on tests and benchmarks. I'd like to see some proof of this claim....

Jack Burton is a great man...
January 2, 2002 12:13:25 AM

Plz show me benches of the GL8800. I'd really like to see (i'm very curious).

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 2, 2002 12:21:45 AM

I don't have any benches, but from the specs alone you would know that the FireGL 8800 would blow the Quadro away.

Jack Burton is a great man...
January 2, 2002 12:25:51 AM

Well, the FireGl 8800 is merely a souped up Radeon 8800, hehe. Does that mean it runs at 300/600?

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
January 2, 2002 12:29:08 AM

Right......from looking at the Mhz rating on a P4 u'd assume it'd kill an Athlon, but hey, its vice versa. Specs mean nothing in this stuff. If you have studied theoretical comp science and all the nice, fuzzy stuff that gets ur brain overheating, u'll know that every algorithm has a certain processing time. However, with uncompiled code/ something that isn't written specifically for it, there will be constant k to factor in as well. Maxtreme optimizes 3d s max totally for Quadro series. Plus, as far as I see, the GF3 series runs more efficiently clock for clock than the R8500, and all a Quadro DCC is is an OGL monster GF3. So basically, imho, the Quadro DCC will win. Sorry, I need proof to accept it. Plus, u see the 128MB GL4 monster- it gets destroyed by Quadro DCC.

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
Anonymous
a b U Graphics card
January 2, 2002 12:34:39 AM

Sorry, but you don't have proof either, so you can't claim anything on your part. However, I'll look into it, as I am sure your claim is way off....

Jack Burton is a great man...
January 2, 2002 12:35:47 AM

Please do show me if I'm wrong...I don't like being wrong. Don't be dissapointed if ur wrong though.

My rice car will leave your R8500 in the dust!
!