Windows 7 same problems different dollar...

[V8VENOM]

So far my Windows 7 experience has been almost exactly the same as my Vista experience. After doing a clean install I was left with 3 directories that appeared to be GUID names -- i.e. "as1234sdfaek9097532lkhgfasf32424". Ran some Windows 7 updates and got another one -- 4 of these "mysterious" directories in total.

So I was successfull at deleting 3 out of the 4, but the 4th directory just didn't permit me (Administrator) to delete it (Access Denied). So once again I'm in Google research land trying solve a problem that shouldn't exist (I feel sorry for the normal human race that actually try to use this POS Windows 7). I tried Safe Mode, I tried creating the "real" Administrator account and logging into that, I tried cmd "Run as Administrator" and RMDIR, still "Access Denied".

So I look at the "owner" of this directory (it should be me since this was a new install and I'm the only person that uses my PC" -- turns out the owner is "Unknown" followed by S-1-5-21...1003 -- WTF who is this owner, all I did was a fresh install and run Windows 7 Updates. So, digging some more I figure out how to take "ownership" of this directory -- key being to also "include sub-directories" and finally I'm able to delete the directory. One would think that since I installed the OS, and I creatd my Admin account, that the OS would realize that I'm the OWNER, hello!!! What a LAME security implemenation, the same lame one that is in Vista.

Clearly, Microsoft just aren't gettin' it -- your average user isn't going to figure this out or most likely will just leave the Windows 7 updates directories/garbage on their drives (some of these garbage folders are huge, 2-3GB). It's mind boggling that Windows 7 really is just Vista SP3. It took less than an hour for me to run into yet again problems with Microsoft's OS and once again I'm wasting my time Googling for solutions.

As far as compatibility, try installing AOE III on Windows 7 - oh it doesn't and Windows 7 even warns you it will not work and "Check for solutions" -- I check the solution is .... drum roll ... there is NO solution - one of Microsoft's own games!!! I'm cracking up at just how lame Windows 7 is, I'm sure it will sell to those that think the interface is better (pretty always sells), but deep down it's clearly the same old junk that is Vista.

Honestly folks, don't waste your money on Windows 7 upgrade, if you think it is different from Vista, you will be sadly disappointed.

 

[Scotteq]

Thank you for sharing.

 

[sminlal]

So, digging some more I figure out how to take "ownership" of this directory -- key being to also "include sub-directories" and finally I'm able to delete the directory. What a LAME security implemenation, the same lame one that is in Vista.

The file and object security infrastructure you're describing was first introduced with the original version of Windows NT way back in the 90's. If you're using any of the 32-bit versions of Windows, you're already dealing with it. It's a sound architecture that has stood the test of time.

Sometimes the biggest problem with a car is the nut that holds the wheel....

 

[brendano257]

2-3GB x 4 = 8-12GB OH NOEEESSSS! Any computer sold with Win7 will most likely come with an HD over 500GB, that's not more than 2% of the HDD. It's not a big deal. You've got to have MASSIVE OCD problems if you can't handle having 4 directories on your computer, especially since they're there to help you?

As for update directories.....They are there in case you need to undo an update. THAT is why they are huge, they contain all the information to undo any update that it pertains to. Honestly, this is not something that in any way pertains to the average user and or even an enthusiast. If your way is so much better, write your own Mac/ Windows hybrid as your avatar suggests.

 

[V8VENOM]

Problem is you're thinking inside the box and the focus of this problem is not about "taking ownership" -- as I said, that was my solution on how to remove this folder. If you were thinking outside the box, you would have said "hey wait a minute, I installed the OS, I've logged in under Admin account, I am the OWNER" --but as with many users, you're thinking within the box.

Because it has always operated as such (going back to NT and the 90's) does NOT justify anything nor suggest it has stood the test of time. In fact, 114,000+ viruses that have circumvented this "security" model would suggest it has NOT stood the test of time at all. Given the sales figures of Vista (even with massive marketshare) it would also suggest this "security" infrastructure is not acceptable from a usability perspective. Your average user isn't going to know or understand why they aren't the OWNER.

Anyway back to the real problem:
1. Windows Update and/or OS Install process created an "Unknown" SID - this is not good.
2. Admin account (the "root" admin account) was still excluded for accessing.
3. Temporary folders like this should be removed appropriately and not left in obvious site (of the root of my boot drive) the first time someone opens explorer.

Funny how Tom's senior editor was quick to list applications that wouldn't work on OSX Snow Leopard, but doesn't mention anything about apps/games that will not work on Windows 7 -- even funnier that it's the first game (AOE III) I try to install that failed, even more amusing that the game is a Microsoft game.

 

[CptTripps]

All this coming from a guy with an apple avatar. Suprise suprise.

Btw, I installed Sacrifice on my Vista 64 PC and it works fine. Same with many older games I own.

 

[mindless728]

load up a linux live cd, mount the drive, chmod 777, them remove it, not too hard

 

[V8VENOM]

2-3GB x 4 = 8-12GB OH NOEEESSSS! Any computer sold with Win7 will most likely come with an HD over 500GB, that's not more than 2% of the HDD. It's not a big deal. You've got to have MASSIVE OCD problems if you can't handle having 4 directories on your computer, especially since they're there to help you?

As for update directories.....They are there in case you need to undo an update. THAT is why they are huge, they contain all the information to undo any update that it pertains to. Honestly, this is not something that in any way pertains to the average user and or even an enthusiast. If your way is so much better, write your own Mac/ Windows hybrid as your avatar suggests.

Ah, so now you've decided what is and isn't a big deal? I see you folks don't want to address the issue, just side step and try to focus on something else. I realize this is common form of debate among fan boys and girls, however, look at the facts as presented.

No OS should be producing GUID dirs off the root/boot drive. This is just sloppy cleanup -- also existed in Vista. Like I said, Windows 7 is Vista with a different name and slight facelift.

Windows 7 is Microsoft as usual -- didn't take long to discover that -- hopefully they'll offer Windows 7 to WinXP downgrades on new computers so others aren't FORCED to suffer this mickey mouse security model ... again.

 

[TheDraac]

You say potato
And I say potahto
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[V8VENOM]

You say potato
And I say potahto
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Informative and valuable contribution ... exactly what I expect from Microsoft Windows hardware forum ... errrr ... I mean Tom's Hardware.

 

[TheDraac]

Why thank you Venom....
Sorry I don't like apples..... I like peaches better.

 

[cjl]

Windows 7 is Microsoft as usual -- didn't take long to discover that -- hopefully they'll offer Windows 7 to WinXP downgrades on new computers so others aren't FORCED to suffer this mickey mouse security model ... again.

Are you honestly suggesting that Win7 is less secure than XP?

Honestly?

:lol:

 

[verrul]

the point is the directory is for uninstalling updates and you can turn off that feature if you so wish. services manager windows backup manager is the service. and age of empires 3 is developed by ensemble studios not microsoft they just published it. they have nothing to do with the coding of the game

 

[endorphines]

just because you installed it doesn't mean that the owner of the folder will be the administrator. there are alot of accounts that are hidden and run various system services and functions. you try to sound like you know the intricate details of how windows works but you obviously don't understand the permissions structure.
if you REALLY want to get rid of it, administrators can take ownership of any file or folder. do that. then close out of the permissions window and the folder properties. go back in, give yourself permissions and delete it.

 

[parleyp]

Because it has always operated as such (going back to NT and the 90's) does NOT justify anything nor suggest it has stood the test of time. In fact, 114,000+ viruses that have circumvented this "security" model would suggest it has NOT stood the test of time at all. Given the sales figures of Vista (even with massive marketshare) it would also suggest this "security" infrastructure is not acceptable from a usability perspective. Your average user isn't going to know or understand why they aren't the OWNER.

.

To equate that NTFS problems have anything to do with the proliferation of viruses on the windows platform demonstrates your fundamental lack of understanding of the file system and how it works with the operating system. Windows has more viruses because it is more profitable for virus writers. OSX is no more secure than windows...just a perception. It isn't profitable to write viruses if no money can be made.

I would suggest that you avoid technology and just pack up your pc and ship it back to the manufacturer because you really don't have enough understanding to run anything.

Anyone who believes your recommendation is simply not very bright. You have one experience that you are surely not technically equipped to handle and you think you have the only correct opinion--that windows 7 sucks!

You are so wrong on so many levels but I don't think there is enough room here to write it all. Windows 7 is faster, more secure and stable than Vista and certainly as fast but much more secure than xp. It also runs faster than OSX on my notebook...you see I run them all---so i think that unless you have empirical data to back up your story, you should keep your opinion to yourself.

 

[sminlal]

Problem is you're thinking inside the box and the focus of this problem is not about "taking ownership" -- as I said, that was my solution on how to remove this folder. If you were thinking outside the box, you would have said "hey wait a minute, I installed the OS, I've logged in under Admin account, I am the OWNER" --but as with many users, you're thinking within the box.

I agree that install kits that leave garbage folders lying around is very annoying, and IMHO that's a perfectly valid criticism.

BUT your gripes about ownership are bogus - the problem isn't the concept of ownership per se, but rather the fact that you didn't understand how ownership and file security works and therefore were frustrated in your attempts to remove the file.

Again, that's not a fault of the OS. It's a design feature that's ALWAYS been in NTFS, and being amazed that Windows 7 is "just like Vista" in this regard simply demonstrates your lack of understanding.

As most administrators know, being able to set ownership and specify security on files that limits Administrative access is a key requirement to ensure privacy and confidentiality. And your comment on viruses is amusing because if Administrative accounts really did have blanket access to all files then the virus problem would be MUCH worse (especially given how many XP users do all their work using and Administrative account, a horrible practice IMHO).

 

[Bolbi]

Um... I want to avoid all the angry discussion above. Maybe there is a problem with the way Windows implements folder security/permissions, and maybe there isn't. I won't judge. Anyway, an easy way to delete a folder you want to forcibly destroy with or without the OS's consent is Unlocker. Easily rename, delete, or move anything the OS wants to stop you from modifying. I use it very frequently.
DISCLAIMER: Only use Unlocker if you know what you are doing. You can do some serious damage if you use it on a file you shouldn't.

 

[Dark Lord of Tech]

i just found a hidden folder on my g5 and i can't remove it!!!!!lol!!!!!!!!!!

 

[V8VENOM]

To equate that NTFS problems have anything to do with the proliferation of viruses on the windows platform demonstrates your fundamental lack of understanding of the file system and how it works with the operating system. Windows has more viruses because it is more profitable for virus writers. OSX is no more secure than windows...just a perception. It isn't profitable to write viruses if no money can be made.

I would suggest that you avoid technology and just pack up your pc and ship it back to the manufacturer because you really don't have enough understanding to run anything.

Anyone who believes your recommendation is simply not very bright. You have one experience that you are surely not technically equipped to handle and you think you have the only correct opinion--that windows 7 sucks!

You are so wrong on so many levels but I don't think there is enough room here to write it all. Windows 7 is faster, more secure and stable than Vista and certainly as fast but much more secure than xp. It also runs faster than OSX on my notebook...you see I run them all---so i think that unless you have empirical data to back up your story, you should keep your opinion to yourself.

Windows 114,000+ viruses vs. OS X 0 (Zero) -- I'm defining a virus/malware or any software that is able to gain access to one's computer without the user entering their credentials (password) to do so.

If you define Virus as "existing" sure there are many that exist targeting OSX -- but every single OSX virus that has gain access to a user's resources has REQUIRED the user to enter the account password. THIS IS NOT the case with Windows XP, Vista, and 7 -- on Microsoft's platforms the user just needs to hit an Ok button or even a faked Close X or faked Cancel and the Virus is in -- one of many ways to enter a Windows along with crashing Services to gain elevated rights.

So are you saying that OSX has NO marketshare because they don't have single virus (as defined above)? Last check Apple was around 8-10% marketshare.

But I see your intent on diverting the key issues using "ownership" as an excuse. As I said, I had to take ownership of an "unknown" SID and this can be done via an Admin account. I'm very well aware of how security works (although I'd suggest 90% of users don't want to be involved in how it works, just that it works or in this case doesn't) as that's how I was able to discover this bogus "unknown" SID that had control of this directory. So you're arguement attempting to discredit my knowledge of this Windows 7 OS, or Vista is silly and obviously a fanboy reaction ... typical Junior grade debating.

Windows 7 is just like Vista - proof is above in my OP. You brought into this thread NTFS going back to Windows NT -- did I say Vista isn't like NT? No I didn't, you somehow made a ridiculous assumption I did?? No idea where you got that from but it sounds like a typical infussion of informtion "not mentioned" to valid YOUR point? Vista was based on Windows 2000 code, Windows 2000 code was based on NT (Windows XP follows the same code source path back to NT also).

Thinking outside the box, means understanding that:
1. NOT all computers are in a cooperate environment and have NO need for differential user accounts.
2. Consumers exists that buy a computer and OWN it - this is user context (something Microsoft refuse to acknowledge)
3. The OS doesn't OWN the user

You are unfortunately under the impression that a computer should control the user, not the user controlling the computer. Computers are tools. This is the box that you appear to have bought into -- it's always been like that so therefore is must be good -- that logical progression leads to a dead end world.

The day Microsoft failed and the reason they're loosing BIG chunks of marketshare is the day they said "security is the user's problem". User rejected this in Vista, and they gonna do the same with Windows 7. Or I suppose you think Vista was a success for Microsoft? If you do feel Vista is good and sold well, then there really is not point in a continued discussion with you.

 

[V8VENOM]

i just found a hidden folder on my g5 and i can't remove it!!!!!lol!!!!!!!!!!

Nice try at diversion, but as I said in my original post, these Windows 7 folders aren't hidden, of the root drive and easy to spot.

 

[Dark Lord of Tech]

mac will always be a minor player.........go bill gates!!!!!!!!!!

 

[V8VENOM]

Um... I want to avoid all the angry discussion above. Maybe there is a problem with the way Windows implements folder security/permissions, and maybe there isn't. I won't judge. Anyway, an easy way to delete a folder you want to forcibly destroy with or without the OS's consent is Unlocker. Easily rename, delete, or move anything the OS wants to stop you from modifying. I use it very frequently.
DISCLAIMER: Only use Unlocker if you know what you are doing. You can do some serious damage if you use it on a file you shouldn't.

Point of my post is why do I even have an "Unknown" SID in control of a folder? This is an account that doesn't exist.

This was a fresh install I performed under my admin account -- someone has to install the OS at some point soooo..... All I did was run Windows updates and I got these folders left on my root drive.

I later ran ATI driver install and Creative Labs driver install and attempted to install AOE III -- and look at the mess I had left over. This is basic stuff that many users will attempt to do. Overtime if this left over temp dirs stay around they'll continue to eat up disk space and slow my system down.

Every single file you add to a hard drive will slow the OS down -- that's why people seem to think a new OS install makes their PC seem "faster", it's because there isn't much on it -- start adding a bunch of stuff and it starts to slow down and the registry gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

This is why Window 7 is like Vista and like XP and like 2000 and like NT, Microsoft seem intent in just leaving junk that is not need on one's hard drive and/or in one's registry. This is the same reason why windows applications will make 40-50 calls to the exact same registry entry when they start -- nothing is optimized. You can easily validate/monitor just how crappy microsoft's code is with filemon and regmon. You'll be left wondering why on earth they just didn't call this entry once during app load and make it global rather than call it 50 times. I do know the answer to this, it's Microsoft way of developing apps, they taught (best practices) to NOT make anything Global because it uses memory and is hard to parse out and manage projects.

In the real world, it is actually Ok to use some global workspace to improve efficiency, just don't OVER use it -- it's this fear that has lead Microsoft developers into these packaged apps that call the same registry entry 50+ times for a single task rather than use a global scope.

Getting off topic now, but clearly Windows 7 is no better than Vista, and heck I could at least run AOE III on Vista, can't on Windows 7.

I think Microsoft got somewhat taken down the wrong road -- a road lead by cooperate IT, not realizing that cooperate users are also human. Also not realizing that cooperate users and home users were about 50/50. It's almost as if they felt a computer MUST have some higher entity governing it -- the Admin User and the real "Administator" two similar but different accounts.

 

[V8VENOM]

mac will always be a minor player.........go bill gates!!!!!!!!!!

Bill Gates?? You do know he's not pulling the strings anymore right?

Based on what I read on Tom's, I sorta hope Mac's remain a minor player, but they've increased from 5% to 10% marketshare in a relatively short period of time while Microsoft are losing marketshare (even more so in the Browser arena where it's down to 67% IE).

The more Windows user the better, Windows user spend on average 4X more time fixing/research problems than Mac users. This means that Mac users are getting more done -- in this job market/economy, the one who gets more done is the desirable one.

-- Apple just needs enough Marketshare, not a majority.

 

[ulysses35]

V8VENOM.... there is one minor detail you seem to be overlooking..............

No one is forcing you to buy Windows 7 when it goes on general release, thats part of the reason Microsoft allow you to download the Beta's and RC so you can trial the new product without parting wiht any cash.

Windows by and large needs to be able to run / open old files and programs as well as new ones. Now no one is going to tell you everything will work 100% - but priorties lie with business users first as this is MS's core market.

Anyway show me an OS without flaws...

 

[sminlal]

Windows 7 is just like Vista - proof is above in my OP.

The thing I'm missing is why you're expecting it to be any different in regards with the basic NTFS security mechanism. That's what you were complaining about.

From your original post:
One would think that since I installed the OS, and I creatd my Admin account, that the OS would realize that I'm the OWNER, hello!!! What a LAME security implemenation, the same lame one that is in Vista.

This is fundamental to the security architecture, always has been, and if you expect it to change then I'm afraid you're just "not getting it"...