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Freedom of marriage... is it a right?

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September 29, 2011 6:55:21 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/national/girl-16-gets-court-to-ha...

Quote:
A COURT has placed a 16-year-old girl on the airport watch list to prevent an arranged marriage taking place in Lebanon.

The girl, who cannot be named for legal reasons, applied to the Federal Magistrates Court for an order to restrain her parents from taking her out of Australia to marry a man she had met only once.



Makes you wonder, does the girl really have the right to break her social and cultural continuity.

Where is the line that has to be drawn between "we accept your culture and beliefs" and "that's not acceptable by our western standards".

Is it really fair that our Western legal system can impose restrictions on what would have invarably happened out of normality in Lebannon?

More about : freedom marriage

September 29, 2011 7:18:35 PM

The concern obviously is, does anyone meet someone one time, then decide to make a life long commitment to that person.
Having less experience in the ways of love arent too far from that of everyday things.
Would it be acceptable for a child to determine forever the shoes he wears, permanantly?
The shirts? Clothing of any kind, not knowing about weather changes?
Theres a million examples, and in each, anyone has the right, yo say clothe themself, but which clothes can be the problem
September 29, 2011 8:34:34 PM

There are several states in the US that allow marriage at age 16. I think Alabama is one of them. I agree with jaydee though. At age 16 you don't know crap but you think you know everything.
September 29, 2011 8:57:10 PM

Please reread, AND read the article. The girl does NOT want to be made to accept a pre-arranged marriage. It is her parents who are trying to make her marry a stranger. She got herself added to the watch list so if her parents try to fly her out, they will HOPEFULLY be prevented.
I say, GOOD FOR HER!

Edit: So yes, freedom FROM FORCED marriage is indeed a right.
September 29, 2011 9:10:09 PM

Agree with u ^ jtt283.

Once u are citizen of another country, u have to obey the laws of that country.

Freedom for who? For that girl? Freedom decided by her father? What about her right to refuse?

Right, she has no saying in that. >Shocker<

She will probably end up death, killed by her father or brother, with no right to refuse.

Sad, but its the truth.
September 29, 2011 9:34:40 PM

Let's hope she doesn't now fall victim to an honor killing.
September 29, 2011 9:36:03 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
Let's hope she doesn't now fall victim to an honor killing.

Odds are not in her favor.
September 29, 2011 10:52:20 PM

amdfangirl said:

Is it really fair that our Western legal system can impose restrictions on what would have invarably happened out of normality in Lebannon?

If they wanted to live under Lebanese standards, they should have stayed there.
September 29, 2011 10:57:24 PM

jsc said:
If they wanted to live under Lebanese standards, they should have stayed there.

Agree. U can't have it both ways.
September 29, 2011 11:11:58 PM

You usually dont see a country back away from its laws to appease others, foreigners, with a different set of laws.
My previous post was under the general misunderstanding of it being her choice, BUT, regardless, what I wrote still applies
September 30, 2011 12:59:46 AM

To be fair, everyone has the right to preserve their culture. Her parents have every right to make that arrangement. But our law does not allows it. In Australia, it would be violation of human right and it is a big no. So that gives the power for the girl to reject it, which is a good thing. But as soon as they persuade her to Lebanon, there is absalutely nothing we can do to protect her and it would be normal for her to get merried, which is both the social norm and accepted by law.

If we have a western mindset, it is a terrible thing, but if we are Lebanses, it would be a celebration of the union of two family, a happy day (at least for the people enjoying the festivity, but may be not he for the bride and/or groom).

I understand that parents from ethnic background want their child to marry someone from the same ethnic group. You don't have to tell me, my parents alway introduce Chinese girl of the same age to me. In my opinion, the best thing the parent can do is what my parents do. They have their hope up that I may merry a Chinese, but I also have the freedom to met the people I want.
September 30, 2011 1:06:36 AM

Quote:
Makes you wonder, does the girl really have the right to break her social and cultural continuity.


No, it makes you wonder. To me it's obvious that she has every right to object to this.
September 30, 2011 1:08:02 AM

"Her parents have every right to make that arrangement. "


They have that right, but if she can be put through potentially life endangering journey, the authorities should step in. She has rights too. And they must be protected.

Its not the first time it is happening.

This girls rights wore not protected in time.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/01/24/honor-killing...
September 30, 2011 1:20:57 AM

@Cuecuemore

Her right to reject the wedding is because she is in a western society. If she is in Lebanon, she will be forced to do it.

In Australia, we want the wedding to stop and we are right. But if we stop her wedding in Lebanon, we are wrong.

@nikorr

Her parents have every right to make that arrangement regardless of which contry they are in. But in Asutralia, the gril has the right to not go to Lebanon for the wedding, so what her parents did just embarrass themselves. Hopefully it wouldn't cause any problem for that girl. I know the honour killing is nasty and hopefully her parents can come to their sense in time to prevent that tragedy. However, in Lebanon, that girl is doing something wrong by rejecting her duty and that could be her punishment, which is also illegal (killing people is illegal in pretty much every country's law). However, they go un-noticed because the group of people doing the killing, often relatives of the girl often make it looks like an accident and the authority is not making an effort to stop it. Killing someone you don't know is hard enough, I have no idea how they can kill someone they know.
September 30, 2011 1:27:49 AM

Hey Pyree,

I am not in disagreement with u. It just sucks for her.
September 30, 2011 1:29:04 AM

To me, this is about disrespect
Of course for the girl, where opinion obviously doesnt exist
But also, for Australia, and its people, and its sovereign rights
September 30, 2011 1:56:52 AM

@nikorr

I am just pointing out how the situation could look like if we are in Lebanon. If this discussion was in a cafe in Lebanon and we are a bunch of old conservative Lebanonese, we would condemn that girl to hell!

@jaydeejohn

For many Asian culture, the opinion of the child deserves no respect. The child respect the parents. That being said, everone respect the law and their culture regardless where they are from. I think Her parent needs to figure out the balance and priority between the two; wether they will respect the Australian law more or the traditional Lebanese culture/social norm more.
September 30, 2011 2:00:59 AM

19500,17,861134 said:
@nikorr

I am just pointing out how the situation could look like if we are in Lebanon. If this discussion was in a cafe in Lebanon and we are a bunch of old conservative Lebanonese, we would condemn that girl to hell!

Yeah, they are keeping the "lid" on the freedom over there.
September 30, 2011 2:11:47 AM

It is difficult becasue of the geographic location they are in. As far as I can understand, they are democracy but just not working very well. IMO, we should help them, not by using military means, to liberate the people in Lebanon politically to become a democracy, should the majority of the people in Lebanon wants it. However, the social liberation is a sensitive issue. We do not fully understand their culture and therefore, it is for the Lebanese people to figure out which social norm and aspect of culture is deem offensive in modern standard and should be discourage and demolished. Pretty much like the in China foot binding, arranged merriage and oppression of female rights is no longer praticed. Unrelated to this article, but I strongly support an orderly political change in mainland China where they can at least make some prograss politacally.
September 30, 2011 2:24:42 AM

I find whats happened in Saudia Arabia a chance at this, with women getting the vote
September 30, 2011 2:27:08 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
I find whats happened in Saudia Arabia a chance at this, with women getting the vote

King over there knows, he must sit on two chairs to stay in power, or else...
September 30, 2011 2:29:25 AM

I just hope the women there can vote the king out.
September 30, 2011 2:37:44 AM

That would lead to Al-Qaeda rule.

Can't say it would help the local woman much, instead it would turn slowly into Afghanistan's direction.
September 30, 2011 2:41:41 AM

I think Saudi Arabia contains too much oil, Uncle Sam will never let it fall on the hands or AQ like Afghanistan.
September 30, 2011 2:44:35 AM

Pyree said:
I think Saudi Arabia contains too much oil, Uncle Sam will never let it fall on the hands or AQ like Afghanistan.

Same with Iraq. Bad apples know, that it would destabilize the free world markets and our living as we know it. IMHO
September 30, 2011 3:03:37 AM

"Makes you wonder, does the girl really have the right to break her social and cultural continuity. "
She is a human being, It is her right to live the way she wants, its not her culture, its her parents culture. I think backward countries like that can go to hell with their beliefs and stay in the dark ages and stay the hell out of my country. Its no longer 2000 BC any more people, wake up!
September 30, 2011 3:31:28 AM

1) in most of those US sates allowing under age marriage, it is With Parental consent ..
2) the choice of wording of 'imposing' western values is a little too late imho , the young girl has obviously been 'exposed' to these western values, and has made a choice for herself ..in fact the very Contact of different cultures , the simple exchange of ideas from group to another can have 'imposing' affects ..from the Conquistidors stopping the Human sacrifices of Aztecs , to the Island of Japan's Centuries of self Isolation from fear of outside influence affecting its culture and religion to even in Modern Times where can find video of, in Africa, a culture where if the woman is simply accused of adultery , the way they prove her innocence is to take an iron skillet , heat up over an open fire , then she has to lick the bottom of skillet 3 times , if her tongue burns she is guilty , if it does not burn , she is innocent; to the meeting European and Native Americans (where Europeans to smoke, and Natives learned to Drink)

The simple geographic intersection of different cultures meeting one another is going to Affect each culture; simply talking to each other has an affect , this is why some cultures Isolate themselves and other cultures venture out for new ideas. ..

that being said , the Parents chose to live in Australia ..and thus chose to live by that Countries laws (even if not it's Culture) ...and That being said , if the situation were reversed ..say an Australian family living in Lebanon ; I doubt the Australian Family would try to 'impose' it's culture (although it bring up another question, what an Aussie Family living in Lebanon, had a Lebanese 16 yr old come to them for help to stop a marriage?) ..
also , there seems to be a presupposition that the arranged marriages in other cultures are totally %100 accepted the by Both the man and the woman invovled (sometimes it the Man who doesnt want to marry the girl) ..and in many cases it is , many cases it is not. of course we are talking cultures that also make it illegal for women to learn to read ..
But the 'Imposing of Western Values' is too late , the simple exchange of ideas has already affected obviously this girl ..and MANY MANY others as well may not express their desire to not have an arrange marriage for fear of the Consequences of going against their own culture. ..take for example the Internet and its ability to allow Every Culture to interact with one another. from the use texts to rally a Million Philipinos to the street to oppose a law being passed, to the Protesters in Iran , to Tianamin Square , to the Movements in Iraq, Egypt , Syria , Libya Tunisia, South Africa, ...while they were not living in another country ..they are still having the western value 'imposed on them' ..simply by being 'exposed to them' ..
Luckily the for US and the West ..freedom has a certain 'contagious quality' to it.
September 30, 2011 3:41:41 AM

^I wouldnt call it "Imposing", these people see a better, more free way of life, and they would be ignorant to deny it. Arranged marriages are not whats best for anyone, and I think we should all do whats best for ourselves and others and do what makes us happy, not live the rest of our lives miserable just because thats how everyone before us lived. If someone is forced into marriage they may aswell be imprisoned, its the same thing.
September 30, 2011 3:50:50 AM

It is an innate human right to choose who you marry. You are not granted that right by a government, you are born with it. A government (whether religious or secular) therefore has no authority to force you to marry or deny you your right to marry who you choose. In fact, they really have no business regulating it at all. They claim that they want to prevent tax fraud, but their taxation systems are rife with loopholes and fraud already. It is clearly governmental overreach when you must apply to the government in order to simply marry the person you choose. This is a right that is far beyond their authority.
September 30, 2011 4:20:05 AM

^It is an innate human right to choose who you marry.

LOL! Then I should be merried to Emma Watson in the future.

It should be a mutual selection of mating partner, which due to the monogamy social behaviour of the western society and by law, evolve to become a wife and husband or partner (of same or different gender) relationship recognised by the law for their union right (some times proved by a piece of certificate).
September 30, 2011 4:39:44 AM

Pyree said:
^It is an innate human right to choose who you marry.

LOL! Then I should be merried to Emma Watson in the future.

It should be a mutual selection of mating partner, which due to the monogamy social behaviour of the western society and by law, evolve to become a wife and husband or partner (of same or different gender) relationship recognised by the law for their union right (some times proved by a piece of certificate).


No you are only thinking of your innate right while ignoring Emma's. So no you can't marry her unless Emma Watson wants to marry you. Violating another's right is immoral and that's where laws come in. You would be violating her right to choose her partner if you forced her to marry you. Your analysis listing cultural western norms and laws misses what an innate right is. It transcends cultural norms and laws. It is above these. You have that right because you exist, not because a society has a certain culture or a certain set of laws.

If the girl was already in Lebanon that culture and that set of laws would purport to deny her the right to refuse her parents' marriage wishes. This would violate her human rights regardless of what Western laws or Eastern laws say.
September 30, 2011 5:05:18 AM

I am not saying you can force a marriage or just thinking of my innate right while ignoring other. I wrote:

"It should be a mutual selection of mating partner"

I just think you should refined your selection of words or defined carefully the meaning of "It is an innate human right to choose who you marry."

It sounds like you can pick a person on the street you want to merry and they have to merry you, pretty much like Kim Jong Il.

It is an innate human right to propose a marriage. (could be made by one or both of the the involving couple or by others). However, the agreement on marriage must be a personal consent from both of the involving couple.

I put in "by others" because some culture made wedding proposal via their parent although the two people in a relationship know each other very well and wants to have a wedding.

For example, if I am going to marry to a Chinese girl and their family is absolutely strict on the ceremony procedure, then I have to do this.

Get a ring and propose like normal. Tell our parent. Our parents will meet in a fancy restaurant and arrange a proposal ceramony where the couple will not be involved. My parents, the groom side of the family will hire an announcer to send wedding proposal letters and proposal gift.
September 30, 2011 5:41:50 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
You usually dont see a country back away from its laws to appease others, foreigners, with a different set of laws.
My previous post was under the general misunderstanding of it being her choice, BUT, regardless, what I wrote still applies


Oh we accept traditional Aboriginal law here.

Once an Aboriginal man raped someone in huis tribe and the court let the elders spear him (almost) to death.

We honour their laws and customs. Why not Lebanese ones?

Right or wrong is subjective here.

From the socially constructed viewpoints of both cultures, they are acting in what they say are right.
September 30, 2011 5:46:59 AM

^exactly and it is so hard to argue.

I think this become majority rules, democratically imposed dictatorship where number is might type of situation. If we allow it to happen, then it is right but if we we don't allow it to happen, then it is wrong. Big flaw!
September 30, 2011 6:30:11 AM

"We honour their laws and customs. Why not Lebanese ones?"

probably because ur not in Lebanon ..as for the Honoring of the Aboriginal customs ..the crime happened in their tribe , prolly iside the 'land borders' ..if the same thing had been done say inside downtown Melborne (Melbourne? , I cant spell, sorry ) then which customs or laws would apply ? ..but it prolly had some geographical 'jurisdiction' taken into account as well ..I dont know you have heard of the story Cabaza De Vaca ..but its a great look at the intersection of cultures
September 30, 2011 12:57:19 PM

amdfangirl said:
Oh we accept traditional Aboriginal law here.

Once an Aboriginal man raped someone in huis tribe and the court let the elders spear him (almost) to death.

We honour their laws and customs. Why not Lebanese ones?

Right or wrong is subjective here.

From the socially constructed viewpoints of both cultures, they are acting in what they say are right.



Aboriginal law precedes Austrailian law. i.e. they were there first. The US government recognizes the laws of native american tribes and their right to prosecute violators any way they see fit.
September 30, 2011 1:20:58 PM

amdfangirl said:
Oh we accept traditional Aboriginal law here.

Once an Aboriginal man raped someone in huis tribe and the court let the elders spear him (almost) to death.

We honour their laws and customs. Why not Lebanese ones?

Right or wrong is subjective here.

From the socially constructed viewpoints of both cultures, they are acting in what they say are right.


Can you give us a link for that because I don't believe one word of it. I know of a case where an Aboriginal man was on trial and the judge put a restraining order on him so he couldn't go back to his tribe and receive (non-lethal) spearing punishment (which he preferred over jail time). I'm fairly certain spearing is illegal in Australia, even for Aboriginals.
September 30, 2011 1:29:55 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
Aboriginal law precedes Austrailian law. i.e. they were there first. The US government recognizes the laws of native american tribes and their right to prosecute violators any way they see fit.


There are limits to this. Just like the states Native American tribes can't just instate torture or the chopping off of hands. Although there are key differences (Native Americans are not bound to all aspects of common law), basic human rights still apply.
September 30, 2011 2:14:20 PM

http://www.lrc.justice.wa.gov.au/2publications/reports/...

Indigenous law has a place within our legal structure here but it is clearly difficult to navigate.

I agree in the case of the young woman that she has rights as an Australian citizen and we have an obligation to protet her.

The issue here must therefore centre on her citizenship status first.
October 1, 2011 5:56:59 AM

Reynod said:
The issue here must therefore centre on her citizenship status first.

Does it? In the U.S., citizenship is not the determining factor. Residency is.
October 1, 2011 1:22:12 PM

By citizenship status I mean is she an Australian or some other nationality?

The whole permanent resident thing stinks as far as I am cconcerned ... I consider people who want to be a permanent resident but keep their original status second class citizens in my country.

If they want to be naturalised and become an Australian then I'll back them to the hilt.

If she is from some other country then her family can all pack their bags and go home ... and take her with them.

If she wants to become an Australian ... then they are not taking her anywhere.
October 1, 2011 6:07:48 PM

"If she wants to become an Australian ... then they are not taking her anywhere."

Exactly, that's my stand on that. Nothing less than that...
October 1, 2011 6:46:36 PM

Onus said:
Please reread, AND read the article. The girl does NOT want to be made to accept a pre-arranged marriage. It is her parents who are trying to make her marry a stranger. She got herself added to the watch list so if her parents try to fly her out, they will HOPEFULLY be prevented.
I say, GOOD FOR HER!

Edit: So yes, freedom FROM FORCED marriage is indeed a right.


Hell yes. Agree 100%.

I live in a country where an arranged marriage is still a common thing and I have to watch some of my friends being forced into it and not be able to do ANYTHING. It's horrible. Western culture or not, there's a set of rights that every human being is entitled to, and that is a freedom of choice that doesn't affect other people's lives. Your religion, your beliefs, you love or the absence of it are YOUR CHOICES.

I'd point-blank shoot anyone attempting to force the opposite on me, but unfortunately, I can't even help my friends - you don't want to risk the wrath of the outnumbering community. I'll still try to do whatever I can, but it feels like a lost cause and I hate these [:amk-aka-phantom:1] traditions [:amk-aka-phantom:1]. Follow them, if you like, but give your children a free choice. They WANT it.
October 1, 2011 7:14:00 PM

I think people are missing the point. Freedom of marriage is a human right. It is intrinsic to one's existence. Lebanon may do its best to deny its citizens this right, but that fact will always remain.
October 2, 2011 2:03:47 AM

amk-aka-Phantom said:
Hell yes. Agree 100%.

I live in a country where an arranged marriage is still a common thing and I have to watch some of my friends being forced into it and not be able to do ANYTHING. It's horrible. Western culture or not, there's a set of rights that every human being is entitled to, and that is a freedom of choice that doesn't affect other people's lives. Your religion, your beliefs, you love or the absence of it are YOUR CHOICES.

I'd point-blank shoot anyone attempting to force the opposite on me, but unfortunately, I can't even help my friends - you don't want to risk the wrath of the outnumbering community. I'll still try to do whatever I can, but it feels like a lost cause and I hate these [:amk-aka-phantom:1] traditions [:amk-aka-phantom:1]. Follow them, if you like, but give your children a free choice. They WANT it.


Shooting is a bit extreme.

Can't we just put soap in their mouths ... or make them listen to the Bee Gees for 4hrs ??

:) 
October 2, 2011 2:15:04 AM

Air Supply would do it. LOL
October 2, 2011 2:18:02 AM

No, we cant make them listen to music, as some consider this torture

CIA's Harsh Interrogation Techniques Described

The detainees were also forced to listen to rap artist Eminem's "Slim Shady" album. The music was so foreign to them it made them frantic, sources said.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Investigation/story?id=13...


ABC has spoken
October 2, 2011 2:52:31 AM

Make them watch 5 years of the Oscars presentation instead?

:) 
October 2, 2011 2:57:05 AM

What if they actually like watching award presentation ceremony?
October 2, 2011 3:07:05 AM

Give them Gilbert Gottfried

No, really



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