ATI Radeon 9700

What does anyone think of this new Graphics Card??
It really looks like a Nvidia Killer for now..
Then again What about the NV30, has anyone seen any specs on this up and coming card?

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  1. the 9700 is defitnitly in a class of its own atm, and it looks like ATI has fianlly crippled Nvidia for now. below is a quote from AtomicPc

    "Well that was until last week at least, when pretender to the throne, ATI, threw its DirectX9 hat into the ring a few months early with the unveiling of the RADEON 9700, which has made a big effort to suck the wind out of NVIDIAs sails, despite a preemptive launch of the nForce2 chipset the day before ATI's big launch. The problem is that the whispers around the industry are that NVIDIA is still a fair way away from having working sample boards of its next generation NV30 GPU. This is due to the need for a 0.13micron fabrication process, something which fabrication partner TSMC is rumoured to still be having problems with, and time spent dedicated to work on the XBox GPU, which threw NVIDIAs famous six month product cycle out of whack.

    Just as ATI's RADEON 9700 announcement took some of the wind out of the sails of Matrox's recent Parhelia Launch, NVIDIA is obviously confident that it is onto a winner with NV30. So confident in fact that ahead of this week's SIGRAPH conference it has done the almost unprecedented thing of releasing a marketing speak laced PDF outlining some of the features of the NV3X architecture, which has been apparently been internally dubbed 'CineFX' (it is a sad sad day when even the engineers start speaking marketease), due to its ability to produce cinematic quality 3D. "

    ATi however is going 2 release a cut down version of the 9700 , no , not the 9000, but another version of the 9700 with slightly lowered clock speed. it's goin 2 be called 9500, the core is goin 2 be working at around 300-315, while the memory is yet to be decided. the card is going 2 cost around $199 us... how sweet, now all we ocer can oc our way to 9700. hehhehehe.
    Atm, the brief outline of NV30 makes it sounds like its gonna kick some major ATI ass ,see below.
    it's all in chinese, so let me translated 4 ya.
    basically, it says "murdering ATI now is the only thing that Nvidia wants 2 do, and NV30 is going 2 achive this by using the new CineFX engine. compare with NV2x, NV30's archtecture is a breakthrogh, the working frequency of the core is of coz higher then the R300, and it's going 2 imploy 0.13 micron process.

    from the table it can be seen that NV3+ will have Vertex displacement mapping and Geometry displacement mapping.
    it will also use vertex shader 2.0, the max instruction will be 65536!!!! compare with R300's 1024, that's a HUGE difference. static instruction will be boosted to 1024 as well as added static flow control and dynamic flow control.
    now NV30 is said to support 128bit pixel shader, and we are not even sure if R300 support 64bit and finaly, NV30 will do 16texture maps and 1024 texture instruction.

    all these data are still primitive, so dont count on it, but even if thoese data were true, when ATI moves to 0.13 micron, then we'll relly see some major competition between the 2.
  2. NV 30 is a Radeon 9700 killer

    The day i meet a goth queen that tell me Intel suck.I turn in a lemming to fill is need in hardware.
  3. Don't be so quick on the trigger. The game is played in the arena, not on paper. Remember that nVidia's own nForce chipset was supposed to outclass everything on the planet and be lightyears ahead.
    The fact remains that ATi's R300 will be widely available in a few weeks on the market, while nVidia will be watching the parade for the next few months.

    <font color=red>A platform is not an oil rig.</font color=red>
  4. nVidia has turned into a power mongering, unfriendly business participant, it seems. Not just based on this article but the comments nvidia had the day the R9700 was announced. Most of it is probably hyperbole, remnants of the frenetic pace nVidia must be working to "try and make something better." You'd hope that somewhere in this there was some decency, but it seems that not for a long time will we fully understand the competitive situation between nVidia and ATi.

    It used to be that nVidia was crowned king and did well with that. I never knew they absolutely *had* to be the best. For years ATi was like AMD, hiding in the shadows, playing almost exclusively to the budget market. For a 5 year period their stock barely budged.

    They say competition is good, but I'm still worried about the social aspects of it. Apparently the economists from Chicago got everything down. They managed to get a nice system of controlling inflation and keeping unemployment low. But what about the social side of it?

    The social side of it needs work, as we're now discovering. I have read through dozens of posts on multiple web sites that have people exclaiming that the R9700 is good, it will give nVidia reason to do better, and that it will create a giant war by means of competition, where the final prize will be much better products and services. After all, competition equals prosperity, right?

    Unfortunately, I think people have been blindsided by this prosperity. Sure, competition can help. But the recent corruptions, scandals, and the overall uncompetitiveness that nearly all major corporations are guilty of is something no one understands yet or is even thinking about changing.

    Am I anti-nVidia? I don't know. I really want to like them. But forgive me for turning this into a political rampage--I just think that sometimes when it comes to computer hardware there's more to it than the technical aspect. I think all of those AMD v. Intel arguments, all of those nVidia v. ATi arguments, and everything else are partly the result of this underlying political circuitry that is definitely running through our heads. Living in the year 2002 right now, in the midst of corporate scandals, I don't think we can deny its impacts on the computer industry any longer. If anything, the computer industry has been getting away with this kind of scandal and fraud for YEARS, all in the name of prosperity, riches, and development--and that's exactly what people expect from competition.

    Perhaps we are willing to substitute some corruption for the good of the technology. But lately, with patent claims to standards as old as OpenGL and even JPEG images--that's right, a company claims to own all JPEG image formats--corporate fraud, the frustration from uncompetitive business practices, and the courts who are powerless to act on them, don't you think it's partly gotten out of hand?<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by cakecake on 07/27/02 07:35 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
  5. If you were expecting some flaming comments...Sorry to disappoint you. All i have to say is:

    I have found out the hard way, never to believe any advertising hype. When I SEE some killer benchmarks from a non-biased source, then I'll get excited.
  6. No matter who's winning. The competition gives us faster chips at lower costs.
  7. I think the Radeon 9700 looks and performs very well (from reviews i've read). ATI has got a step up on NVIDIA for now, but how long will that last for - To the release of NV 30.

    I need a video upgrade pretty bad in my system
    -Voodoo 5
    -GeForce 2 MX 400
    -TNT 2

    I think for for overall performance and price I will pick up the Radeon 9700 when it is released (Could hold out for NV 30 but I think it will kill my saving and overdraft as well.)


    :smile: <font color=red>Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do! :wink: <font color=black> Think outside the box!
  8. Quote:
    For years ATi was like AMD, hiding in the shadows, playing only to a small budget market.

    That's not true. ATI has the biggest OEM deal I've ever seen. It's changed a little now with budget GeForces around, but ATI was never skulking in the shadows only selling to budget users... they had exclusive deals with all the major computer brands, there was an ATI card in every one, totally ubiquitous. It was that way for many years.
  9. Remember that nVidia's own nForce chipset was supposed to outclass everything on the planet and be lightyears ahead

    I was the only one that was again nforce when the was release the white paper and i was right once again.

    The day i meet a goth queen that tell me Intel suck.I turn in a lemming to fill is need in hardware.
  10. Still, I want to differentiate that ATi has really not innovated, so to speak, very much until now. They are a much older company than nVidia, which is only 4 years old. They weren't on the forefront of consumer graphics, and sure they did have sales, but they were from systems integrators who wanted to sell cheap cards.

    This little cathode light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine!
  11. Quote:

    Still, I want to differentiate that ATi has really not innovated, so to speak, very much until now. They are a much older company than nVidia, which is only 4 years old. They weren't on the forefront of consumer graphics, and sure they did have sales, but they were from systems integrators who wanted to sell cheap cards.

    While I agree about the second comment, I don't see how that is lack of innovation. ATI has always been one step ahead of nVidia in innovation and one step behind in overall performance.

    :wink: <b><i>"A penny saved is a penny earned!"</i></b> :wink:
  12. Ati's new card looks like a winner. I can't wait to buy one.

    :wink: “ <font color=blue> Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.” - Jimi Hendrix </font color=blue> :wink:
  13. Quote:
    ATI has the biggest OEM deal I've ever seen.

    Where do you see this? From what I've seen, system integrators use nVidia cards mostly. The new line of Radeon cards may change that, but right now, nVidia has a much larger OEM market. (Dell, Compaq, IBM, and the such.)

    :smile: Falling down stairs saves time :smile:
  14. One word: Notebooks!

    Nearly all mid-range to high-end notebooks have ATI chips.

    :wink: <b><i>"A penny saved is a penny earned!"</i></b> :wink:
  15. Quote:
    Where do you see this? From what I've seen, system integrators use nVidia cards mostly. The new line of Radeon cards may change that, but right now, nVidia has a much larger OEM market. (Dell, Compaq, IBM, and the such.)

    Everywhere I used to look... things have changed now that Nvidia pushes its budget range, but certainly in the past ATI had things sewn up for ages, Mach64 to Rage 128 at least.
  16. from what you've where did you see yours? just askin...I do believe ATI has the OEM market coz of their lower price and good get what you pay for...anyway how much will be the 9700...any estimations? at ATI website I did see the 9000 to be like 150 US bucks? so is 9700 under300 bucks? or is itfar superior from 9000 to be in a price range of 350-400? too excited but alas no money!!!!
  17. As I said, Dell, IBM, Compaq, HP, whatever. Yeah, I agree with the notebook part, although, that market isn't as big as the desktop sector.

    The R9700 has a MSRP of $399USD. Not too bad for such a good card now and potentially, when DX9 comes out. Stupid MS :tongue: !

    :smile: Falling down stairs saves time :smile:
  18. Not only that, ATI's Radeon 9000/pro is the answer to the lower budget nvidia MX lines, looks like ATI has finally got their act together not just within the driver development field, but have also learnt to design and market their products for ALL consumers. The 9700 will be up high in a class of its own for some time and meanwhile, very soon, the Radeon 9500 will be released for even cheaper at around 199-299 US dollars.
  19. for those who won't be able to afford the 9700 do you guys think the 9500 will be a big leap from the 8500? I bet it would...I jsut remembered the 8500 and 7500 of old days...I guess when they come out pretty damn soon a trip to their website will satisfy my questions...
  20. the 9500 is sorta like the 9700LE, it will most likely contain all the features of the 9700, but only has a lowered clocked core and memory. as long as ATI and other 3rd party manufacturer put in qulaity parts, we can always overclock it to a 9700, hopefully.
    on another note, just heard that the up coming NV30 will use DDR2. looks like ATI still ain't in safe water yet.
  21. Ok, first off, the DDRII wasn't even supposed to mass produce til Q2 2003 IIRC. I'm not doubting that the NV30 may beat the R9700, but these specs are all rumours.

    I've heard that the R9500 may only have 4 pipelines instead of 8. Also, I have a speculation, maybe it'll only have 128bit DDR RAM. Then with lower speeds, it could only barely reach Ti4600 levels. Huh.... barely reach Ti4600 for a mainstream card :smile: .

    :smile: Help the n00bie!! :smile:
  22. Don,t forget the r300 was designed to use ddr II so we may see it in the r350.
  23. Yeah, it was designed to incorporate it, but who knows when DDRII will be available?

    :smile: Help the n00bie!! :smile:
  24. yes maybe.... and i think it is marketed to compete with the GF4 Ti lines. but hopefuly, only the core/memory speed will be the only difference between the 9700 and the 9500.
  25. In that case even 50MHZ below Ti4600 clock speeds would still yeild better performance (at the same clock it is roughly 40% better).

    The sound of determination is the echo of will...
  26. DDR came out on video cards way before it came out on motherboards. DDR-II on motherboards is supposed to come out in 2H 2003, yes, but probably earlier for video cards.

    The R9500 will probably be a Ti4600 competitor due to its decreased pipelines. But by reducing the number of pipelines the production can be sped up, the number of failed cards can be reduced, and the overall price of it can drop. The R9500 may be able to bring Ti4600 speeds to the mainstream at a low price.

    1° of separation between my monopoly and yours. That's business with .NET
  27. Yeah, well said. It'll be great for us customers who want DX9 support, but don't want to spend too much.

    :lol: Finally, I get a capitalized title!! WOOT!! :lol:
  28. it been anouce that it will be ready for use in few month and sure it samsung who else.

    There also 450 mghz DDR cas 4 from infineon i think it ready now for use.

    The day i meet a goth queen that tell me Intel suck.I turn in a lemming to fill is need in hardware.
  29. I'm speaking here out from what I remember...R9700 is 512 bit right? it uses 256bit memory...right? so when you said R9500 uses 128bit memory then the R9500 is only 256bit just like the GF4...right? and R9700 should beat GF4 ti4600 in all aspects right?

    <P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by hartski on 07/29/02 07:41 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
  30. Yeah, the R9700 is 512bit core and 256bit DDR RAM. The R9500 <b><i>may</i></b> have a 128bit DDR RAM. It's just a guess. Yes, it would be like the GF4 Ti's. I'd say the R9500 will perform about the same as a Ti4600. The R9700 beats the Ti4600 handily.

    :lol: Finally, I get a capitalized title!! WOOT!! :lol:
  31. I won't ever buy a ATI because I hate their driver support. Yeah the card looks great, oh.. the driver only comes with 640x480 256 color support only for windows 95. :)
  32. Great knowlege of ATI

    I guess is in programming and electronique

    The day i meet a goth queen that tell me Intel suck.I turn in a lemming to fill is need in hardware.
  33. Mate, I'd say get back in your time machine and go back a couple of years... you left your brain back there somewhere.


    I plugged my ram into my motherboard, but unplugged it when I smelled cooked mutton.
  34. what do u mean ATI lacks driver support? ATI has done everything that they can getting all the bugs fixed and improve performance in their driver, infact, they are going 2 put more focus on their unified Catalyst driver from now on, eventually, the ATI driver will be as reliable as Nvidia's.
  35. Spunkie is absolutely correct! ATI drivers and their 'support' is an embarassment to the graphics industry.

    Sure...ATI has a phone number, they actually answer the phone, and they can tell you which 15 drivers you need to load, but if something, anything, does not work, your are screwed! ATI will give you a song and dance and be "concerned," but will do NOTHING!

    If you care about ATI's "ancient history" (posts from 2 weeks ago!), check out mine titled "Radeon cannot play Dolby DVDs."

    You will find plenty of brainwashed ATI shills, who say ATI is the best, who will say...."just wait for new drivers..."

    Well, here I am...STILL waiting...

    I would not waste my time with a 9700, even it was given to me for free!
  36. I have a Radeon 8500 friend has a Radeon 8500 DV...I built my computer and my friend's computer...I *never* had a problem with my R8500 in games or graphic work...I built my friend a $4000 PC theater system with R8500DV 64MB and he plays DVDs and music just fine, even Dolby...I have no problems with 2 ATI have a problem with yours...maybe it's not the some troubleshooting...ATI still sells their cards even if they have been branded in having bad I guess their cards *do work* afterall and it's not all about the drivers...

    I understand you are mad coz of the problem you have with *your* ATI card but being under the influence of anger can impare your judgement so take it easy on ATI...and try to take it easy on me if you decide to start a flame...:^]

    Catalyst...great idea! they are trying to improve things and they shall succeed...
  37. I'm sure nVidia is around 10 years old. Not 4!

    Now, I don't think ATI is an innovative company. Anything that can remotely be called innovative (nPatches) is 1 part features and 99 parts hype.

    I would call nVidia innovative because of the GPUs, the memory architectures, things that actually help the industry where others are willing to license them.

    Matrox is one company that leads in innovation but trails in performance. With all the bump mapping and now displacement mapping etc. 3D Labs is also joining in with its virtual memory system and high programmability. All of these are features that help the industry. ATI definitely lacks in this department.

    And... To all disbelievers, ATI <b><font color=red>DOES</font color=red></b> have bad driver support! Not talking about the customer support, mind you. Some of them can be rather pleasant, even if not helpful.

    <b><font color=red>I'm a bomb technician. If you see me running, try to keep up.</font color=red></b>
  38. "ATI driver will be as reliable as Nvidia's."

    That's my point. Every ATI card I've owned is very buggy.
  39. Here's a second exzample

    "The Radeon 7500, meanwhile, produced a host of graphical errors using the current Catalyst drivers (to quote ATi, "Industry's most stable 3D acceleration software"), making measurements impossible."

    Read the lastest graphic card review..

    Even our beloved tom sees problems with the drivers they provide.
  40. ...maybe it's not the some troubleshooting...

    THIS KNOWN PROBLEM IS DOCUMENTED WITHIN ATI's knowledgebase. Apparently, some people don't bother to read previous FACTS before relying on lopsided opinions.

    Do some troubleshooting?

    In case you missed the previous comment, THIS IS A KNOWN PROBLEM WITH ALL OF ATI'S 7500 AND 8500 series AIWs and is documented in ATI's knowledgebase. Now, what troubleshooting would you suggest? I really do not care that a friend of my next door neighbor's cousins' sister's best friend's uncle has a AIW and everything works just fine. I bought this card strictly for dolby playback (a feature which 95% of Radeon users do not use) and it does not work and ATI knows it does not work and their only solution is: "We have made a problem report and our engineers are working on it, so all you can do is wait for new drivers."

    The S/PDIF circuitry of the RADEON card is proprietary to ATI, therefore, only ATI can fix it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but ATI's Radeon is the only video card that has a S/PDIF audio output.

    Sure, I forget about dolby and just use the plain old stereo (yawn...) out of the sound card. I can also keep the dolby and shut off the TV. But ATI's advertising states "dolby output!"
  41. ATI is well aware of the problems and trust me they are trying to change and fast. Only a few years ago the nv1 by nvidia was considered and is still is the worst card with the worst drivers and look were they are now. My point yes companies can change ATI has taken the right steps in the past few weeks by changing the reference hardware from the r100 (ancient) to the r300 (modern and IMPORTANTLY DESIGNED BY THE GUYS WHO BROUGHT U THE GAMECUBE AND N64) for their drivers. Catalyst in my opinion was not meant to run properly on the ancient r7500 I mean why bother when older driver versions work just fine with little or no glitches. Lets wait and see the reviews in August.
  42. I always thought the NV1 was a prototype. The Riva TNT used the NV4 core and before that the Riva128 used the NV2 core. Which product used the NV1 core?

    <b>I have so many cookies I now have a FAT problem!</b>
  43. nVidia has only been around for 4 years, ever since the launch of their Riva 128 chipset. They are engineers and businessmen who know how to run a business well. That's how they claimed so much market share from 3dfx.

    1° of separation between my monopoly and yours. That's business with .NET
  44. hyper Z as i know there were the 1

    The day i meet a goth queen that tell me Intel suck.I turn in a lemming to fill is need in hardware.
  45. The nv1 was released in the Diamond Edge3D card in 1996. Thats 6 years ago. They must've been working on it at least a couple of years. They only claimed market share 3DFX lost, as in they did not exactly win marketshare. 3DFX got big headed and said only they will make cards based on their chips. That was the issue.

    <b><font color=red>I'm a bomb technician. If you see me running, try to keep up.</font color=red></b>
  46. Yes, if you look at current benchmarks, the 9700 does perform better then the GF4 TI4600. But, NV30 will quickly reclaim the crown. For your convenience, here's some info about the NV30 direct from Nvidia <A HREF="" target="_new"></A>. If you look at the NV3X papers, you'll find out some info about the NV30. According to Nvidia, the NV30 will be the most important product release they've ever made in the past 10 years. This of course, means that Nvidia has probably been around for about 10 years now. Many sources say that since NV30 will be made on 0.13 process, it will allow Nvidia to clock the card as high as 400mhz. Also, the NV30 probably will use DDR-II, since it's rumoured to have about double the memory bandwith of the NV2X series of cards (somewhere around 20GB/s). And, for all you non-believers of Nvidia, in Nvidia's PDF's and white papers, it states that the NV3X cards will be able to do 1024 instructions per pass. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the 9700 can do only 256 instructions per pass. In conclusion, looking at the white papers, the NV3X cards are a completely new generation of cars. FYI, NV30 has about 107 million transistors, about double that of the GF4 ti4600. There are rumours that the NV30 is so radical, it might have a new name (non-Geforce name). BTW, NV30 is first card from Nvidia to use 3dfx tech. Looks like ATI is in for a fierce battle.

    Ati cards are still found in many low-level computers and notebooks, but Nvidia is quickly scooping up those markets. Thats really the only reason why ATi is still alive. A few months ago, I read on that ATi was on the the verge of bancruptcy, due to alot of profit loss. Now, ATI is again saved with it's 9700.

    Another fact is that Nvidia's drivers are DEFINITELY more reliable and stable than any other video card drivers. Creative's drivers are total rubbish, 3dlabs are average, Matrox's are a disgrace, Ati's are average, and finally getting better, but Nvidia's are exceptional. Sure in the old days (NV1 era), Nvidia's drivers were bad, but Nvidia improved, and during the TNT2 era, Nvidia hired a new driver team (the current one). This current team has alot of vets, and Ati's team simply can't compete with them, even if they try hard. ATI's only chance is to hire new members for their driver team.

    For some reason, whenever a company is leading an industry, or has majority popularity (eg. Intel, Nvidia), people (especially on these forums) like to pick on them. People love to cheer for the underdogs like ATI or AMD for the simple fact that they are underdogs. Apart from value, and great prices, ATI and AMD fans don't really have any arguments against Intel or Nvidia (exception: 9700 is currently performance king). Many AMD & ATi fans argue with me saying how bad Nvidia & Intel suck. Funny thing is, when I bring out my arguments, they reply with their own old arguments, and for some strange reason, cannot, or don't want to counter my arguments. I try to be as realistic as possible in my arguments, and I try to use the facts. On these forums, though, many people for some reason can't handle the facts or the truth.

    - - - - -
    Tejas - "supposedly" the last P4 revision
    [successor to Prescott]
  47. maybe so, but we won't see NV30 for another 6 months or so. by that time, ATI would've released the upgraded version of 9700 as well as 9500 (both around later this yr), making them selves heard,and when NV30 does come out, the 9700 line will be beaten .then ATI will release R350 or R400, something like that which suppose to outclass the NV30, then nvida will release NV3x....etc. the race will go on until one of the company makes a mistake, ie, releaseing a product that dosn't live up to the hype and expectation (just like the voodoo3 line and Tbred ).
  48. Wasnt that long time ago since i read about nvidia ass kissing but here it goes again.
    Before you critisize that ati sucks bla bla drivers stinks(kiss nvidia ass) and all that crap. You should probably know that no computer is another alike (way of speech) Sure it's easy to complain. But have you actually thought of checking other things in your comp except your graphics card? I used to have a hercules gf2 gts. It worked good, last time i used it i had the 23.12 drivers. Then i patched to the new at that time 28.23 and the legendary excellency of nvidia drivers as you nvidia fanboys would say, caused my comp to crash every 15 minutes. I had to reinstall the old drivers to get my comp to work. Same thing can go for your comp and your gfx card. Maybe the later drivers improved and didn't cause the same problem but i don't know cause i sold the gf2 and got a Radeon8500. But have patience. A fix for it will come. but you can't just sit on your ass and wait and expect that a graphic driver update will fix everything.

    feels kinda useless talking to you ass kissers. since you wont care and just say how sucky ATI is.
    BTW ever read that everytime ATI has came with something nvidia has tried to sabotage it with rumours and other things
  49. I know, but all I'm saying is, that if you look at previous ATI releases, the 8500 didn't exactly make a "big splash" in the market. Neither did the 7500. For ATI to seriously compete with Nvidia right now, they have to put in more effort. I'll bet that even the updated 9700 won't be able to beat the NV30, If you compared the current NV30 specs to the 9700. I'm just saying that the NV30 will be a force to be reckoned with, since it the past 3 years, Nvidia has always lived up to the hype with their video cards (not counting Nforce).

    Unit01, do you have any links or proof of this "sabotage" and "rumours"? Now, nobody is perfect, and Nvidia certainly isn't. FYI, the 28.23 might have been beta drivers. Not EVERY SINGLE TINY driver release from Nvidia is amazing. Some releases are beta, where Nvidia might be testing something new in the drivers. I'm saying though, the WHQL certified drivers, and the OFFICIAL new driver releases from Nvidia are very solid. Most of the driver releases are solid, except for a few defunct ones, such as 28.23. BTW, Nvidia's drivers cover all cards ranging from TNT2, to GF4. And considering how varied all these cards are, and how different their architechture is, the fact that Nvidia can make a solid driver which runs fine with all of them is quite a feat. I'm running the 21.81 drivers, the first version of the Detonator XP drivers, if I remember correctly. These drivers are rock solid, and I've been running them for about 8 months.

    Nvidia even discourages you from downloading their drivers, since they never say if the drivers are beta (which I wish they did), but when the drivers are WHQL certified, then that's a sign they are rock solid and are actually final drivers, not beta. You can't expect Nvidia's beta drivers to be super solid. They release the betas, so people can download them, test them, and report if anything bad happens. Nvidia has a fairly large group of driver testers, and once Nvidia is satisfied by a driver version of thiers, then they go and send it to be cretified. BTW, the "Detonator 5" drivers are rumoured to be released soon. These will support all the new features of the NV30, as well as "supposedly" improve on older drivers for their current cards. Nvidia has yet to confirm these details. If you look on their site right now, the newest drivers are the certified 29.42, while in reality, the newest drivers are 30.82, although you don't see them on the site. The reason is, the 30.82 are currently being beta tested, and they've been released, but you have to hunt around for them, since they're beta. I guess Nvidia simply decided that the 29.42 are good enough for now, or simply that the 30.82 are early beta, and have a few problems.

    - - - - -
    Tejas - "supposedly" the last P4 revision
    [successor to Prescott]
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