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Detonator 40, improvements anyone?

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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August 29, 2002 10:11:16 PM

Nvidia claims they have up to 25% improvement, any test results? I usually base mine on a small Nature test cuz I don't like spending long time for the full 3dMark.
I currently get about 30FPS on my Ti200 with an AXP 1600+ on WinXP.
I will report new results once I reboot.

Also it seems we the old NV card owners can benefit from CineFX in the future as well, just emulated slow performance.

--
When buying an AthlonXP, please make sure the bus is at 133MHZ, or you will get a lower speed!

More about : detonator improvements

August 29, 2002 10:29:04 PM

I havent been able to make 3dmark2001se complete once, with the new drivers.
It terminates without error around test 15. Im running winxp, on a gforce2mx400.

~~DukeP~~
August 29, 2002 10:29:30 PM

Holy crap Nvidia delivered more than expected!!!

In some areas of the nature test, it got up to 54 FPS which was never attained before even when OCed, the performance was always smooth and never once got below 30, miraculously.
I got an average of 37.1 FPS, an average 17% improvement.
WOW, all I can say is Nvidia's driver team has once again delivered some true magic!!!

It has however in sometimes gotten up to twice the performance I'd get before in that test, but that is ranging from the absolute minimum to absolute max.
At first I got 39FPS but I realized I was tweaking before benching and set to Blend texture quality in D3D, I then put it back to Max Image, to remove any bias and be sure that I am getting the real deal.
It got more than when I had the card OCed.

To everyone, GET THE DRIVERS! Never mind WHQL for now, this is true power. I just WHQL won't lower performance when they release them.

--
When buying an AthlonXP, please make sure the bus is at 133MHZ, or you will get a lower speed!
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August 29, 2002 10:37:54 PM

Hehe, I've been looking around: nVidia is pulling an ATI on ATI. They've apparently boosted performance by adjusting the LOD bias, and Nature is the one benchmark that truly benefits. Other games will see about 1 or 2 FPS improvement. I've also heard of a couple of graphic glitches in that driver set. It sounds remarkably identical to the Catalyst 2.2 release. ATI promised a 25% improvement in some games, and yet a 5-10% improvement was the best I saw. Also, the Catalyst 2.2 drivers have a couple of memory leaks.

Intelligence is not merely the wealth of knowledge but the sum of perception, wisdom, and knowledge.
August 29, 2002 10:48:44 PM

Disappointing result, I got 6340 3dMarks. I think it makes no sense, I used to get higher than that, yet the Nature test spoke for itself!
Something is fishy, the results are awefully nice, though I wish I could access my MadOnion account, there's no way right now. Can you get in or is it really shut down?

--
When buying an AthlonXP, please make sure the bus is at 133MHZ, or you will get a lower speed!
August 29, 2002 10:52:02 PM

Its jumping all over the forums.
The new drivers are broken for the gfarce2 line. Random exits from programs. I can only confirm random exit from the 3Dbench2001SE.

Seems they just adjusted the setting for the "Level of Detail" (LoD). This might only have boosted some scenes in some test. Dont think it will carry into games.

~DukeP~~
August 29, 2002 10:57:03 PM

So much for "nVidia always makes perfect drivers and ATI always makes buggy ones". ::rollseyes::

Disclaimer: This is not meant to be a troll post


Intelligence is not merely the wealth of knowledge but the sum of perception, wisdom, and knowledge.
August 30, 2002 2:48:08 AM

I installed the Det. 40.41 on my GF2 GTS played Medal of Honor, Quake 3 and Unreal. Did not crash. Have not yet run 3Dbench2001se. Need to download it but I'm on 56k dial up.

Athlon xp 1800+
ECS K7S5A
256 DDR
GForce 2 GTS
Win 2000 SP3
SIS AGP 1.11
DX 8.1
Det 40.41
August 30, 2002 2:54:56 AM

Woah! 50-60fps in Nature scene (didn't dip below 50) on Quadro DCC! This is insane!!! Other stuff runs really well too. Damn! And CS is off da hook! I love this.

What if you had admin rights to life?
August 30, 2002 3:57:22 AM

This is pure PR that's all - from the other benches @ Rage3D it is apparent that not only has NVIDIA intentionally targetted 3DMark to pull the old wool, it has sacrificed quality in order to do so. The only thing that is now apparent, is that 98SE is going the way of the dodo - not surprising, but significant, imo, nonetheless. Peace.

From Rage3D:
GLQuake - Tenebrae mod
1024x768x32 - NoAA, NoAniso

30.82 = 43.1fps
40.41 = 43.4fps

Tiger Woods 2002

1024x768x32bit - NoAA, NoAniso
30.82 = 63.045
40.41 = 63.125

1280x1024x32bit - NoAA, NoAniso
30.82 = 48.137
40.41 = 48.109

F1 2002

1024x768x32bit - NoAA, NoAniso
30.82 = 97.872
40.41 = 98.965

1600x1200x32bit - NoAA, NoAniso
30.82 = 65.880
40.41 = 66.524


From VR-Zone:

3DMark 2001SE

30.82 = 55.29
40.41 = 54.3

Comanche 4

30.82 = 65.880
40.41 = 66.524

Quake 3

30.82 = 271.4
40.41 = 277.7

RTCW
30.82 = 160.4
40.41 = 162

Serious Sam SE
30.82 = 107.8
40.41 = 108.3



<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Fionavar on 08/29/02 10:00 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 30, 2002 8:39:56 AM

First of all, yes there are improvements in performance, major ones. The FPS in the 3dmark nature test skyrocket from 50-60fps to 100-110fps! Without any visible decrease in quality. (my 3dmark score also increased by almost 1000 points)

However it is clear that nvidia cheated on us with this performance increase; visual quality was reduced in the latest 40.41 drivers due to the lower anisotropic filtering enabled by default in those latest drivers. Nevertheless I'm think nvidia did the right thing with this decision. The reduced image quality is almost not visible when playing games unless you compare still screenshots taken with different driver versions. Therefor this shouldn't worry any gamer out there and if you really want the same image quality then in previous drivers, just enable "Texture Sharpening" in the anti-aliasing tab and set the directx ansitropic filter to 1x or 2x. Of course performance will then again suffer from it. It's your choice.

The new control panel of the 40.41 should have been released a while ago, I really like the fact that you can now configure every settings using just one panel. There is also one hidden GPU Temperature panel which I will try out later, some enhanced SP1 for XP support (I believe it has something to do with refresh rates) and a revised version of nvidia's nview tool. Not bad for a new driver release, since there are even more changes which you can find at nvidia's website.

But now the most interesting thing of those new 40.41 drivers (and some speculation from my side): the nv30 emulation mode.

As many websites already have reported, nvidia included full nv30 emulation support in the latest drivers which can be enabled by a tool, also available from nvidia, to run programs specifically written for the upcoming GF5. But what does that now mean since there are no such programs or games available and they won't be for the next 3-4 months until one can buy the GF5. So I believe (and here is my speculation) that nvidia is up to something big. It wouldn't surprise me if they release some ground-breaking demo in the next few weeks which will be optimized for and run only on the nv30 chipset. Of course at that time there will be no GF5 to run that demo but nvidia will simply say: "If you like to get a glimbse of our upcoming technology, just install the 40.41 drivers, enable the nv30 support and watch our demo. Now if you really like to see this awesome cinematic-like graphics running smooth at 60fps, wait until the GF5 arrives in stores."

This way nvidia could fill the gap until the nv30 arrives and at the same time pull back potential Radeon 9700 buyers so they would wait for the nv30.

Any comments?
August 30, 2002 1:26:31 PM

25% is a marketing number. I've never seen the 25-30% than Nvidia promises in their new driver releases. But, they got it somewhere on at least one card, so they advertize it. Besides, what looks better, a 5-10% speed increase across the board, or "Up to 25% speed increase"? to Joe Average?

Not that Nvidia is the only company to make claims like this, they're just the one we're talking about at the moment.

If ignorance is bliss, then why is everyone so miserable?
August 30, 2002 1:39:37 PM

Quote:
However it is clear that nvidia cheated on us with this performance increase; visual quality was reduced in the latest 40.41 drivers due to the lower anisotropic filtering enabled by default in those latest drivers. Nevertheless I'm think nvidia did the right thing with this decision. The reduced image quality is almost not visible when playing games unless you compare still screenshots taken with different driver versions.

Just to ask, didn't ATI do this with one program and get lambasted for it?

I find it dishonest if they claim to get superior speed through drivers when they also turned down the IQ without telling anyone. Even if it isn't noticable, that's an underhanded way to increase performance.

It's nice that companies are finaly tweeking their driver interface. It's something that seems to have gone by the wayside.

If ignorance is bliss, then why is everyone so miserable?
August 30, 2002 2:39:18 PM

What ATI did a year ago with its drivers was something completely different. They build an routine in their drivers which will detect when you start quake3 and then noticeable reduced texture quality to increase performance and be able to compete somewhat with nvidia. This tweak/cheat would only be enabled when playing quake3.

The thing nvidia did now with its 40.41 drivers is that they globally reduced the ansitropic filtering (or LOD map bias) to increase performance dramatically in some games, not only in one specific prog/bench/game. This with an almost unnoticeable quality decrease.

Before someone now screams that nvidia only optimized 3dmark in the latest drivers, one should at first read some of those now available 40.41 reviews.

e.g.: http://www.3dgpu.com/reviews/det40.php
the review depicts an in specific example of an almost 30% increase in speed when running quake3. Other games however aren't that impressive, guess you can't optimized your driver for every game...
August 30, 2002 3:21:10 PM

It seems to me that Nvidia is going downhill. I've been hearing a lot of PR stuff from them, but they aren't really doing much right now. Seems to me that they did real well with GF2, 3, and 4, but now they're right back in the middle of the pack and all they can do is yap the loudest. I have nothing against Nvidia, and I'm not partial to ATI, I'm just pointing out some stuff. I was also reading an article here at THG (Siggraph 2002: Nvidia vs World) and they mentioned that alot of the old-school guys have left Nvidia. It looks like Nvidia has got the big head and is growing too big for their britches. Omid Rahmat brings up some really good points in that regard. Check out his Siggraph article.

My Rig is bigger than yours.

Huzzah for Antec, AMD, and ASUS!!!
August 30, 2002 4:26:35 PM

I'm using an 128mb Radeon 8500, with The newest Catalyst.
Do you have prove of these memory leaks in the drivers you keep refering to. I've not really found any difference in game play from Catalyst 2.1 to 2.2.

Games I'm currently playing

Commache 4
Mohaa
Sum of all fears
Warcraft 3
The Thing
August 30, 2002 4:29:27 PM

I know it exists in WinXP. Try winning Spider Solitaire. There are a couple more places but I don't remember. Try searching on Rage3D. It isn't a huge problem but I'm sticking to the Catalyst 2.1 for now.

Intelligence is not merely the wealth of knowledge but the sum of perception, wisdom, and knowledge.
August 30, 2002 4:38:01 PM

You play Comanche 4! I think it is of the most sucking game in the world. How much you like it?
August 30, 2002 5:05:19 PM

I think that the simple fact, imo, is that the NV30, with its poor taping and rumoured issues, is not ready and may not be until 1Q 2003. I think vacs may be right in that NVIDIA is trying to make the NV30 compete with the 9700 when it cannot with actual silicon.

I do not know if NVIDIA is in actualy trouble, but I think the NV30 architecture may be more than they thought and by the time they get it out the 9700 will respond with the improved DDR solution, plus it is is evident the card has a lot more mhz in it. I think NVIDIA may be out-gunned for the first time in some time and NVIDIA is scrambling to damage control before the fact - or I could be way off ;)  Peace.
August 31, 2002 2:57:45 PM

Yeah, seems like at first NV30 wasn't all that great, then R300 came out, and would'ce beaten NV30, so they're pushing it back some to improve the core and card overall to compete with the R9700 PRO.

BTW, it seems like they'llbe a R9700PRO, a R9700 and a R9500.

<i>Past mistakes may make you look stupid, but avoiding future ones will make you look smart!</i>
August 31, 2002 3:14:52 PM

Yep, Nvidia has done it again. Even the old Geforce cards are said to get a performance improvement. The only problem for me is that I'm running Win98SE, and right now, detonator 40 is not available for me. Also, I despise WinXP right now, and I won't be upgrading to it for a while.

Staying on topic, these new drivers further strenghten my belief that software optimization is a powerful thing, just as powerful as hardware optimization. For example, on my current system, all components are running at stock speed. Instead of OCing, I have done a TON of software tweaks, optimizations, and alot of general configuring. The result, my system right now is running faster than when I first got it (even though I have a full hard drive). My internet is faster than it's ever been, and Windows is really responsive. In fact, I've done so much optimizations that my HD can't keep up. Sometimes, my HD slows down the whole system, even though I'm running it at the max that my cables/chipset can support. So, I'm getting rock solid stability, while also getting some really nice performance. It's just like if I overclocked, only I'm keeping all of the stability that I would lose.

Not ALL games and/or cards will see a 30% performance improvement. The 30% comes only works for certain cards/games. Now, that doesn't mean that the other cards don't get a boost. It's just that the other cards have reached their performance limit, and even Nvidia's magic can't give a really high boost anymore.

Nvidia isn't going downhill. For all you people who are skeptical, the NV30 taped out in the beginning of august. That means that at the earliest, Nvidia may release the NV30 in november, if they really push it. Most likely december, though, in limited quantities. The reason NV30 has been delayed is becuase the production of Xbox GPU's threw Nvidia's 6 month product cycle out of whack. And to make matters worse, TSMC had problems for their 0.13 micron process, which further delayed NV30, and which really angered Nvidia. Now, it seems Nvidia is going full speed ahead now that TSMC has "supposedly" solved it's problems. Historically, it's taken Nvidia 90-100 days to go from
tape-out to production.
- - -
All good things must come to an end … so they can be replaced by better things!
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Dark_Archonis on 08/31/02 11:25 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
August 31, 2002 4:53:40 PM

Quote:
TSMC had problems for their 0.13 micron process, which further delayed NV30, and which really angered Nvidia.

Actually, I'm not so sure about that. I've read a couple articles that seem to point the finger at nVidia. They wanted to make some changes to the core at the last moment, therefore putting themselves back.

<i>Past mistakes may make you look stupid, but avoiding future ones will make you look smart!</i>
September 1, 2002 11:15:42 PM

My 3DMark score went from 9049 to 9705. With some overclocking i can get 10261, but the GPU is getting rather hot then.

Asus V8420 Deluxe 128Mb.
Athlon XP 1600+
512Mb Infineon DDR 266 CAS2
September 2, 2002 12:21:42 PM

Ok to start with. No wonder people say tomshardware community is falling apart. Mostly idiots making false claims. You people really think that those magical numbers from 3dmark came for free? Oh yes of course nvidia optimized it.... yeah sure. No quality loss at all...... Tried morrowwind? Seen the nice non-linear walls with your magical nvidia drivers. Nothing is free in 3d land. There is degraded quality in 3dmark. why else the magical increasement. And it was nature mark specifically. They're using tricks and media pr and then they trust their majorilly idiotic card owners to say "wow 800 more points in 3dmark WOW" "Yes i buy a 300-400$USD card to benchmark yesyes..........."
September 2, 2002 12:30:22 PM

And IIRC they still are beta, so there's nothing guaranteed. Try them at your own risk.

<i>Past mistakes may make you look stupid, but avoiding future ones will make you look smart!</i>
September 2, 2002 4:15:23 PM

U know what's funny? I never used an official driver, it's always beta. Risk my ass- if u can tweak drivers right, u'll be fine and system won't crash. As for unit10, A) Most computer users DON'T KNOW WHAT VID CARD THEY HAVE so when and if they dl det 40's, they won't understand. B) For those who do, they can make the choice. So go shove it you Ati bitch.

What if you had admin rights to life?
September 2, 2002 7:44:07 PM

Dude you better calm down because you will receive a lot of negative replies.

First of all, I touted its performance because that was what I first got. I then inspected the image quality, and indeed it was a trick in the end. I don't go crazy if I find more points because 3d Mark does not represent my gaming. So far I don't play many games where I have FPS problems, Battelfield 1942 is buggy by itself online, so it lags and skips, WarCraft III, well I wouldn't notice, because it only lags in intensive battles. In fact if companies would be a bit smart and consider us gamers first, they'd make each game have an FPS Display command that can be enabled.

However there is no doubt under any circumstance, the best drivers ever, are the Detonator XPs. Anyone who bought a Geforce 3 when it came out, will agree, its performance matched the GF2 Ultra, and barely could itch above. When the Detonator XPs came out, almost any Nvidia card got from 10-20% boost, while the GF3s rocked the boathouse and gained a truly sizeable boost, that put them finally sky high above the GF2 series, enough to warrant the price and features. Even the Ti200 which is far downclocked compared to the GF2 Ultra's speeds, could beat it by 15-20% most of the time.
If anybody disagrees, you are a hypocrite who never was reading and getting informed during the GF3 days.

--
When buying an AthlonXP, please make sure the bus is at 133MHZ, or you will get a lower speed!<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Eden on 09/02/02 04:04 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
September 2, 2002 7:55:42 PM

The issue that was discussed was the 40.41 drivers and since nvidia is releasing them themselves their partially official. And the other issue was the performance boost in 3dmark(which you people seem to run more than gaming). And i've stuck to that. And still some issues you keep forgetting since you have to act all superior

NOTHING IS FREE IN 3D-LAND.
Do you understand that?
September 2, 2002 9:32:14 PM

Hahah, the fact that NV made em does not mean they are official. Like I said, people can choose whether or not to run em. I gain considerable increase in speed w/ my Quadro DCC, while image quality looks the same in 3d s max using Maxtreme drivers. As for things being free in 3d land, sure they are, it just takes a good programmer to find em. Example: OGL increase is rather significant usin a minor driver tweak on the GF cards. Sometimes it's merely activating certain features on the card, other times its using them more efficiently.

What if you had admin rights to life?
September 3, 2002 9:09:10 PM

Considering my GF3, GF3 TI500, and GF4 TI4600 were all free i'm gonna have to disagree with you.

To everyone:
I'll test these new drivers out tonight and see what i can come up with. Will see how visual quality goes in NWN and warcraft 3 and i'll go ahead and run the nature test to for kicks. Had 73fps in nature before with 28.32 drivers last time i ran it. I'm really curious to see if there really is a noticable quailty difference or not. Probably gonna trade in the 4600 for a ATI 9700 pro tomorrow though anyhow...free graphics cards, love it to death.

The itsy bitsy spider climbed up the empires state building, along came goblin, wiped the spider out
!