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Austerity

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October 3, 2011 10:20:59 PM

Should EVERY government adopt austerity? Allow the world economy restart itself, while the rest of us prepare to rid our debts?

More about : austerity

October 3, 2011 10:46:05 PM

Every government should stop confiscating from those who earn to give to those who do not. Parasitism is NOT an appropriate mode of living for human beings.
October 3, 2011 11:01:16 PM

Onus said:
Every government should stop confiscating from those who earn to give to those who do not. Parasitism is NOT an appropriate mode of living for human beings.


QFT.

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October 3, 2011 11:03:11 PM

Onus said:
Every government should stop confiscating from those who earn to give to those who do not. Parasitism is NOT an appropriate mode of living for human beings.


You should stop believing to know what other government have to do.

Talking about parasitism is so... i want to be polite, i won't finish this message.
October 3, 2011 11:12:55 PM

Onus said:
Every government should stop confiscating from those who earn to give to those who do not. Parasitism is NOT an appropriate mode of living for human beings.


Totally agree. Although we probably don't agree on who earn (imo not necessarily the same people who have/make) money and who are the Wall Street scum gambling other people's money away parasites.


And no, not every government should implement austerity: many countries don't have a huge deficit and some of the ones that do have more of a revenue problem than a spending problem. The ones that should really implement austerity don't have to listen to America telling them to do so, because America never listened when foreigners were warning it about its growing debt, credit card society, pointless, costly wars, wasteful/cruel healthcare "system" and deregulation of the banks/Wall Street.
October 4, 2011 12:15:54 AM

The rest of the worlds next
So, nows the time to pick apart each country?
Besides that being a heartless attitude, itd play well on wall street
October 4, 2011 12:26:11 AM

Stop borrowing from tomorrow to finance yesterday, AMIRITE?
October 4, 2011 12:41:48 AM

All Government needs to do is count money coming in, pay the military payroll and keep the Nation running with a fiscal budget on time each year every time.

We have been running on imaginary binary money for way too long. Sort of like using a ledger pad to keep the Monopoly Bank solvent until the cash is transferred back by the losing players.

Living frugal has already been forced onto millions of angry people who are getting angrier by the month. Our soup has been simmering for decades as Jobs went over seas and employers extracted themselves from Unions, Pensions, Liabilitiy and Benefits.

Temp workers not included. These are the lucky ones who can still make a living working when they feel like it and clocking out any time the job is completed instead of riding the clock.
October 4, 2011 12:50:13 AM

The Wall Street gamblers and banksters are indeed parasites, who just move massive amounts of OPM around, skimming the flow. Their mode of parasitism is one of the most pernicious, because to many people it is not anywhere near as obvious as welfare crack whores with their hands out. I'd happily see them stripped to penury, because tricking people out of their money is not at all the same thing as earning it. The government needs to keep its grubby paws out of the Producers' pockets, but snatch up all that unearned wealth. Problem is, too much of it ends up in campaign coffers for me to have much hope things will improve until they've gotten a lot worse.

October 4, 2011 1:11:41 AM

Onus said:
The Wall Street gamblers and banksters are indeed parasites, who just move massive amounts of OPM around, skimming the flow. Their mode of parasitism is one of the most pernicious, because to many people it is not anywhere near as obvious as welfare crack whores with their hands out. I'd happily see them stripped to penury, because tricking people out of their money is not at all the same thing as earning it. The government needs to keep its grubby paws out of the Producers' pockets, but snatch up all that unearned wealth. Problem is, too much of it ends up in campaign coffers for me to have much hope things will improve until they've gotten a lot worse.


Sounds reasonable, but here's the $1 million question: are "the producers" the employees, the executives, the shareholders/investors, the government who build and maintain legal security and infrastructure or a combination of these? If you accept that the employees and government are also producers than "taxing the rich" and "wealth distribution" (towards the working class) suddenly don't sound so unfair anymore... If you see the executives and shareholders/investors as producers you'll come out at the opposite end. So yeah, this is why you can't just get by shouting the obvious in such a way everyone will agree, meaning without strictly defining what you mean by your words and actually describing your ideas in great detail.
October 4, 2011 1:19:49 AM

If you know history, anyone of any merit has said in varying words, we deserve the government we get, so government itself is unimportant in such things, its we the people
October 4, 2011 4:00:59 PM

Quote:
Your system of government election for officials is so screwed up you will never get the kind of people into ffice that you need.

Your government won't push austerity ... it is political suicide ... therefore the US govt will continue running a deficit until it is bankrupted ... no politician takes a view longer than their own term of office ...

You need millions to fund a campaign for office ... so only the rich get in ... or those "bought" buy the rich ... and therefore tainted in the process.


So true. Election cycles start 18 months before the actual election and since representatives are chosen every two years (with only two year terms) it's pretty much constantly "election season". No democracy can function like that because election season means making sky high promises you can't keep instead of actual governing. Then there's the campaign donations (now even from corporations)...

In my country only a minority of politicians come from rich families and only a handful went to elitist, exclusive universities (abroad, because we don't have them and strangely we have a lot less anti-science types despite this), in America it's the majority of politicians, we also only have national elections every 4 years. Since I can easily point to 100 things that are bad about our politicians and government I can only imagine how bad it must be in America...
October 4, 2011 4:04:45 PM

2 years is only the term in the House of Representatives. The Senate is 6 years. The presidential election cycle sometimes begins that early, but not congressional elections, specifically not the House.
October 4, 2011 4:11:02 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
2 years is only the term in the House of Representatives. The Senate is 6 years. The presidential election cycle sometimes begins that early, but not congressional elections, specifically not the House.


All I've seen in American media since late 2007 is elections this and primaries that. The 2010 congressional elections were preceded by months of campaigning for example, there were primaries 6 months (a quarter of a term!) before the elections.
October 4, 2011 4:45:13 PM

The 2012 Senate elections are heating up a bit in my state, but only becuase a sentor is stepping down leaving a seat up for grabs. The House elections haven't begun to heat up yet.

Of course the Presidential field has been heating up for a couple months now, but no primaries or caucus have been held yet. That will kick off with the New Hamshire and Iowa primary and caucus respectively in January 2012.
October 4, 2011 4:50:26 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
The 2012 Senate elections are heating up a bit in my state, but only becuase a sentor is stepping down leaving a seat up for grabs. The House elections haven't begun to heat up yet.

Of course the Presidential field has been heating up for a couple months now, but no primaries or caucus have been held yet. That will kick off with the New Hamshire and Iowa primary and caucus respectively in January 2012.


Sure, but there have been 2149 republican Presidential "debates" already, one of which was apparently so important the president had to reschedule an important speech for it. Election season has already begun, at least for the republicans, so that means a bunch of governors, representatives and senators being more busy making promises they can't keep and appealing to all kinds of fringe ideas (they don't flip flop, they are just telling the bloodthirsty crowds what they want to hear in order to get elected) than they are with governing. Any one of them compromising with the administratio has now become even more implausible and will remain so until at least november 2012. There you have it, at least 14 months wasted.
October 4, 2011 5:32:12 PM

Actually President Obama didn't need to reschedule his campaign speech. But between the Republican debates and the NFL pregame show, he wouldn't have had much of an audience.

Probably the only thing that would have guaranteed him a smaller audience would be a NASCAR race in the same time slot.

Besides, "The 10 O'clock News" (depending on your time zone) would have covered it.

I pretty much do not listen to political speeches. I read transcripts.
October 4, 2011 5:59:51 PM

jsc said:
Actually President Obama didn't need to reschedule his campaign speech. But between the Republican debates and the NFL pregame show, he wouldn't have had much of an audience.

Probably the only thing that would have guaranteed him a smaller audience would be a NASCAR race in the same time slot.

Besides, "The 10 O'clock News" (depending on your time zone) would have covered it.

I pretty much do not listen to political speeches. I read transcripts.


It wasn't "his" campaign speech, it was a speech to outline a new, major program worth hundreds of billions of $. The republican "debate" (which was about presidential candidates) taking up so much viewers just underscores my point that election season has already begun (or is still going, I really can't tell the difference anymore).
October 4, 2011 6:13:07 PM

Individual rights are not uniquely American; they are Human. The Human survival mechanism is not claw and fang, not emotion, and not faith; it is Reason. In the USA, people are no longer held accountable for their errors or their wrongdoing, but are compelled by force to accept the responsibility for everyone else's errors and wrongdoing. That is not at all consistent with Reason.
The damn shame is, I really don't know a better place to be, although I'm worried that could change.
Who knows, maybe in a few years (before such travel becomes impossible), I may end up emigrating to AUS.
October 4, 2011 6:18:04 PM

Quote:
In the USA, people are no longer held accountable for their errors or their wrongdoing


I say this at least once a day. Today there is an excuse or ' justified explanation' for any knd of behavior or social agenda. Nay.
October 4, 2011 6:24:34 PM

That absolutely was a campaign speech Obama gave to the joint session of Congress. Did you even hear or read it? sheesh!
October 4, 2011 6:28:35 PM

That's you hearing what you want to hear. Just because the rethugs are already campaigning doesn't mean everyone is.
October 4, 2011 6:37:08 PM

Gulli said:
It wasn't "his" campaign speech, it was a speech to outline a new, major program worth hundreds of billions of $. The republican "debate" (which was about presidential candidates) taking up so much viewers just underscores my point that election season has already begun (or is still going, I really can't tell the difference anymore).




It was a campaign speech, he wanted to appear to be trying and make the republicans look like obstructionists. It was all about setting up campaign talking points. He keeps saying "Pass this bill" but no Democrat has presented it to the Congress for a vote. Why is that? Its stragety, they might present it next year after the republican primaries and try to use it as a way to say the republicans don't care. Obama says to pass it, but it wasn't ever really meant to be passed, just a talking point.

But you are right, the election season has started. Which I think is both good and bad. Good beacuse we get more time to vet the candidate and bad because of all the money wasted. Don't you wish the media had vetted Obama the same way they do repubs?

Both sides lie and exaggerate, its up to the people to figure out which is the lesser of the evils or at least who will do the least amount of damage.
October 4, 2011 6:40:05 PM

Gulli said:
That's you hearing what you want to hear. Just because the rethugs are already campaigning doesn't mean everyone is.



I thought I went back in time and was listening to his stilmulus package speech. It was nearly verbatim except for the $$ amount he was asking for.

That was his great economic plan. More stimululs slush fund.
October 4, 2011 7:34:47 PM

1) 'rethugs' ..Really ? it always amazes how the leftists call for 'civility'
2) you dont have to be rich to get elected ..(though it does not hurt) ..the recent FL senate Election of Marco Rubio is a prime example of that; The incumbant Governer Crist was a 'shoe in' , known name, more money, support of the press etc etc, NO one thought Rubio had a snowballs chance in hell (except the people of FL) ..and geuss what ex-Governer Crist is doing now ? oh he works for Morgan&Morgan (a personal injury trial lawyer firm, ie 'Ambulance Chasers') and is NOT a Senator, ..
you could also go back to Jimmy Carter or Harry Truman (who did Not come from money, and the media back then was as full of crap as they are today (anyone remember that famous pic of Truman holding the Newspaper with the Headline "Dewey defeats Truman" ??)
I just watched a Doc about the Representative who ran SOLELY on the platform of repealing the "Dont Ask; Dont Tell" Gays in the Military policy..and guess what it has been repealed, and he lost his re-election, but he was ok with that , re-election was not his goal.
3) not EVERY Gov't needs Austerity ..though the US certainly does ..and while the pundits will say it is political suicide for the politician, they are wrong, the American People have wanted a "Balanced Budget Amendment" for quite some time, I would be willing to bet that they would vote for the guy or gal, who brings that up and RE-elect them.
4) Yes Big O's speech was a re-election speech , it was a setup , to try and label the republicans as 'obstructionist' and make it look like he is trying to 'get things done' and make it look like he is trying to create jobs' ..it was a rehash of the epic fail Stimulus of the past , I got my 'Shovel ready' ..everyone else got their shovel? you're gonna need it for the upcoming 'silly season' as you are about to witness some of the most epically huge loads of BS you have ever seen in your life.
but even still I will give Big O a chance ..soo lemme see if I got this straight, we are in epic debt, you just had spent a record amount of money that we dont have, it failed to create jobs, soo your solution is to (after losing your good credit score; after visiting the Queen of England and bringing a larger Entourage than even the Queen herself has, including your own personal chef (what the Queens Food aint good enough for ya? after telling Americans to 'eat their peas' ? after vacationing in your $50,000 a WEEK Martha's Vinyard retreat) your solution is to spend more money that we dont have ? ...hmm sounds like more epic fail to me...
October 4, 2011 10:26:27 PM

0bama's goal seems to be that he wants to be the last President of the United States; or at the very least, the last elected one.
October 4, 2011 10:44:04 PM

Onus said:
0bama's goal seems to be that he wants to be the last President of the United States; or at the very least, the last elected one.


Yeah, cause he's so much worse than Nixon, Reagan and Bush Jr...

All this "Obama is the second Hitler/Stalin/antichrist, etc..." crap is unfounded BS. It goes from the NRA saying he'll make all guns illegal (the only law he has signed on the subject actually made it legal to carry guns in national parks), O'Reilly saying his taxes will be raised to 50% (Obama only wants them to get back to the rates of the Clinton era, meaning 35% --> 39,6% for the top rate) to Glenn Beck saying ACORN stole the election for Obama (not one single republican senator, representative or governor reported voting irregularities in their state and not one has publicly supported Glenn Beck's theory), to various pundits saying he wants to nationalize healthcare (he never proposed anything of the sort, ever), hell, there's even a thread about Obama wanting to chip everyone, right here on Toms. It's all a load of crap, but hey, facts don't matter anymore. Obama is more centrist/slightly to the right than Clinton, FDR or Johnson and they didn't cause the world to come to an end, now did they?

How about the politicians and pundits calling him the worst thing in the universe first get rid of the religious/anti-science nutjobs and corporate whores among their own first (there'd be none left if they did that, so this is a rhetorical question)?

These days, there is just so much hatred, propaganda and ignorance in politics... The hatred is just so much stronger than when Clinton was in office, I really don't blame people for thinking this hatred is rooted in racism (although I do not subscribe to that theory myself, I'm more a "Karl Rove's spin machine f*cked everything up by making people care more about opinions and spin than about actual facts" kinda guy).

With the few remaining sane republicans almost instantly eliminated more than a year before the presidential elections, Obama remains the least worst of the 2012 candidates by far. Perry has his heart in the right place but is just a dumb puppet of corporate interests (just like the previous Texas governor) and Ron Paul and Herman Cain belong to that rare breed of republicans that do have half a brain (maybe John Huntsman too, but he was eliminated at the get go for being sane) they are just too far out there with their free market fundamentalism that would condemn 90% of the population to poverty (robber baron age style), finally, Romney is a dirty corporate whore who'd sell his own mother and publicly declare eating cyanide is healthy, if his corporate donors asked him to.
October 4, 2011 11:54:52 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
^^ wow you edited and still came off as a git.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE


No, he said that if he could start a new country from scratch he MIGHT give it single payer universal healthcare (which is still not nationalized healthcare, such as the British NHS, because the state does not own the hospitals and does not employ doctors). He has never promoted a bill that would introduce a single payer system, not as a senator and not as president and he has repeatedly said that a universal healthcare system with insurance companies (like Germany or the Netherlands) is the best way to go for the America that exists today.
October 5, 2011 12:02:28 AM

The point being, he is advocating government involvement in what is NOT a US Government job, at the forced expense of American taxpayers. No thanks. We need reform, but that's not it. Reform isn't about finding "somebody else" to pay for it, it's about lowering the costs. Get rid of the layers of bureaucracy, the ambulance chasers, call insurance companies to heel, all of the above; but any recent plan I've heard ADDS cost.
October 5, 2011 12:20:45 AM

Onus said:
The point being, he is advocating government involvement in what is NOT a US Government job, at the forced expense of American taxpayers. No thanks. We need reform, but that's not it. Reform isn't about finding "somebody else" to pay for it, it's about lowering the costs. Get rid of the layers of bureaucracy, the ambulance chasers, call insurance companies to heel, all of the above; but any recent plan I've heard ADDS cost.


And this is different from, say FDR, Clinton or Johnson, how exactly? What makes them (in your eyes) ordinary bad presidents while Obama will (in your eyes) destroy the America?
October 5, 2011 12:38:58 AM

Onus said:
The point being, he is advocating government involvement in what is NOT a US Government job, at the forced expense of American taxpayers. No thanks. We need reform, but that's not it. Reform isn't about finding "somebody else" to pay for it, it's about lowering the costs. Get rid of the layers of bureaucracy, the ambulance chasers, call insurance companies to heel, all of the above; but any recent plan I've heard ADDS cost.


Obama got his lowest job approval numbers last week. Years ago during rush hour Michelle called him to warn him that a crazed idiot was driving on the wrong way on the freeway. Barack replied that he'd already counted about four hundred of them.
October 5, 2011 12:47:16 AM

I certainly hope I didn't imply anywhere that FDR, Johnson, or Clinton were better Presidents, although "America" was so much stronger then that the damage wasn't as severe (though it would have lasting consequences). From what I've been reading lately, FDR's policies increased the duration and severity of the Great Depression, Johnson's "Great Society" trained entire generations to be Government-dependent, and Clinton's incompetence pretty much forced his successor to resume and then expand on an extremely costly war, definitely contributed to the specifics of 9/11 (the Saudis pretty much offered us Osama bin Towel's head on a plate during the time that unzipped miscreant was living in the White House), and start on still more (again costly) warfare. No, 0bama's "virtue" may be that government [condoned and/or sponsored] wrondoing during his term may be the last straw that breaks the camel's back. America's larger cities are already becoming increasingly and visibly unsafe, from feral humans with no respect or even a basic understanding of Right and Wrong. People are slowly coming to the realization that this dog needs a flea bath, badly.
October 5, 2011 12:49:52 AM

Quote:
0bama's "virtue"


Poor judgement, blind ambition and a lack of rectitude are inherent in his case.
October 5, 2011 12:59:08 AM

Gulli said:
And this is different from, say FDR, Clinton or Johnson, how exactly? What makes them (in your eyes) ordinary bad presidents while Obama will (in your eyes) destroy the America?




Its a matter of success. No previous president has wasted more money, taken socialist policies as far or kissed our enemies butts.

Obama is advocating a healthcare system patterend after Europe, while many European officials are telling him to stop because it has failed in their countries and they are trying to get out of it. Yet he just keeps pushing on. Obamacare is the first huge step towards socialized healthcare and the American people screamed they didn't want it, but Dems didn't care and passed it anyways.

Look at how he has conned people. He talks about the evil corporations and greedy rich people, now we have a bunch of sheeple protesting on Wall St. Yes, the rich pay a lower percentage but that percentage figures to a much high amount paid. Those people are basically protesting against jobs and for higher prices. But think about it:

Raise corporate taxes = either fewer employees or higher prices on the products. Either way, the middle class and poor pay the taxes. Corporations don't pay taxes, consumers do.
Raise taxes on the rich = Rich move to other countries or start finding ways to hide income.

Some say tax the rich and give to the poor, but when you've taxed the rich down, then who will you tax to give handouts to the poor? Socialism is trickle up poverty, Capitalism is trickle down wealth. Capitalism is failing right now due to all the socialist regulations imposed that mandated banks and credit compaines to help over-extend people that couldn't afford the credit given them, which is why the housing market went bust. Many of those predatory lenders we keep hearing about were following rules put forth by the likes of Barney Frank, among others.

I could go on but I'm getting a headache. You can't be as naive as you appear. Take an economics class.
October 5, 2011 1:06:43 AM

Excellent comments, Martell. Too bad the current generation isn't being taught things like that, as it would not serve the interests of the PTB.

Edit: Anyway, 5:00a comes early; I'll catch up in the morning.
October 5, 2011 4:06:14 AM

Gulli has quite a way of putting words into people's mouths , and ASSuming things.
Martell is exactly right ..and Gulli's argument ALWAYS about someone else's money ..its ALWAYS about the money..hmmm helping poor people by taking from someone else. it never occurs them that to say that maybe turning off MTV and reading a book would help, or maybe getting a second job for a while, or maybe Not spending your money on crap (be it fancy rims, fancy jewelry, that new music CD, that trip to see that new movie, maybe staying in and cooking instead going out, or instead of tickets to that new Rock/Rap concert , maybe putting that money in the bank; oh cant afford that new book, try the Library ..no if they cant afford the new book, it must be because someone else has more money than they do right ? it has nothing to do with how they spent what little money they have.. but of course it much easier to blame someone else , and find a way to justify taking someone else's money. I know , I know none of my suggestions are easy , or 'cool' ..but I just dont believe in taking from someone else ..btw , I dont recall FDR, or Johnson , apologizing to the world or to our enemies , I dont recall FDR or Johnson directing to the DoJ to ignore its own laws. I Dont recall FDR or Johnson losing the AAA+ rating, I dont recall FDR or Johnson , wasting a record amount of money with absolutely NOTHING to show for it. I dont recall FDR and Johnson's College Thesis being a closely held locked and sealed national secret. I dont recall FDR or Johnson , putting out a Birth Certificate that is obvious fake, (or at least obviously altered post scan so sloppily that a kid on youtube can disect it) ..and jtt is also correct , the point being that he is imposing the Gov't on the people when the people DONT want it.
the interesting thing to me ..since you mentioned Johnson and his 'great society' ..have you tallied up how much the taxpayer has paid out on welfare/food stamps etc ..since those programs were instuted..and how much the poverty level has changed ? have you looked at Social Security for example ..whne it started there 35 workers paying into social security for every 1 taking out of it..in the year 2000 , that figure was down 3 workers paying for every 1 taking out..I myself will get to pay SS for my entire life , and probably never see a dime of it. Im sorry but throwing money at the problem withOUT changing the behavior will just waste the money.
"Socialism is great , until you run out of other peoples money" --Winston Churchill
October 5, 2011 4:31:44 AM

Assume: Making and Ass our of U M E.
October 5, 2011 11:23:09 AM

Quote:
Your system of government election for officials is so screwed up you will never get the kind of people into ffice that you need.

Your government won't push austerity ... it is political suicide ... therefore the US govt will continue running a deficit until it is bankrupted ... no politician takes a view longer than their own term of office ...

You need millions to fund a campaign for office ... so only the rich get in ... or those "bought" buy the rich ... and therefore tainted in the process.

Moreover ... who are you people to judge other countries political systems when your own is so screwed up?

Worry about the grass withering on your own side of the fence ... the rest of us will take care of our own thanks ... in this sense I belive gropouce has the right answer.


Well you look at Greece. Riots and protesting.

If I was running for PM, I'd do political sucide of sorts, offer to cut the paycheck of all politicians, ban 3rd party 'endorsements'. I would be damn popular.

People hate politicians.

In giving them less pay, I'd be a miracle in the polls.
October 5, 2011 1:46:06 PM

Martell77 said:
Its a matter of success. No previous president has wasted more money, taken socialist policies as far or kissed our enemies butts.

Obama is advocating a healthcare system patterend after Europe, while many European officials are telling him to stop because it has failed in their countries and they are trying to get out of it.


Name one European "official" (and no, lobbyists from insurance companies are not officials). You could hold a poll in every European nation (or Canada, NZ, South Korea, Australia, Taiwan, Argentina, Chile, Brazil or Japan) and find that the vast majority of these populations would never take their government out of their healthcare. No European president, prime minister or MP has proposed this in the past decades, not even the libertarians. In fact European politicians often use the term "American circumstances" as a pejorative term, to (often successfully) scare voters, when the subject is healthcare, the prison system or higher education.

You talk about reading books, maybe you should travel a bit and experience other societies first hand (and find out that paying thousands of $ in insurance per year and still getting shafted when you need surgery is not considered normal in other developed nations) and be humbled by the fact that America is not #1 in everything.

In a 2008 poll 59% of American doctors supported universal healthcare, while only 32% opposed it, but hey, what do they know, right? http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/03/31/idUSN31432035

If you think Obama's proposals are more drastic than what FDR and Johnson did you need a reality check.
October 5, 2011 2:48:11 PM

Gulli said:
No, he said that if he could start a new country from scratch he MIGHT give it single payer universal healthcare (which is still not nationalized healthcare, such as the British NHS, because the state does not own the hospitals and does not employ doctors). He has never promoted a bill that would introduce a single payer system, not as a senator and not as president and he has repeatedly said that a universal healthcare system with insurance companies (like Germany or the Netherlands) is the best way to go for the America that exists today.



You are deranged.

This is what he believes Gulli. He didn't propose a single payer system because he knew it would have never passed through the Congress. The Democrat controlled Congress. (at the time)

So they are doing it the progressive way. Baby steps.

October 5, 2011 3:39:49 PM

Gulli , you should travel to America sometime ..and while I personally have not visited the great European Utopia ..my Folks and friends are VERY well traveled in Europe , let list some of thier experiences for you .. (in fact my Ex, and one of my Best Friends since 7th grade now both LIVE in the UK and have for more than a decade)
My Folks ..
1) first time in Paris ..PickPocketed ..
2) in Athens , Greece , they broke into the Hotel Room and stole my fathers wallet; and no this was not a dump in a bad neighborhood, it was a very nice hotel
3) in Northern Italy , they made a wrong turn, and wound up at the Italian border, where they were arrested , held for 48 hours without charge, my Mother was strip searched and held for no reason whatesoever. they basically saw some tourists and shook them down for a bribe, my Father wanted to just pay them whatever, but my Mother refused because they had done nothing wrong, however after being strip searched and held for 48 hrs , became obvious they were just holding (kidnapping them) for money
shall I go on ?
my Friends
1) on a train tour of Europe somewhere around the Austrian Border, he woken up in the middle of night , and demanded papers and passports , and even though everything was in order , they still arrested him and basically shook him down for a bribe
2) my friend that Lives in London , just last year , he was mugged , and robbed of his wallet.
shall I go on ?

Thanks but I will keep my american dollars right here in america.

as for your 2008 poll ..that was when the people were lied to about what was going to be in the HealthCare Bill 'that we had to pass it , before we could read it' ..take that same poll today , and %59 of Americans want Obamacare Repealed .

David G. Green, Ph.D
Philippe Manière
Paul Belien
Johan Hjertqvist
Friedrich Breyer, Ph.D

though I dont know if they qualify as 'officials'
October 5, 2011 5:32:50 PM

Gulli said:
Yeah, cause he's so much worse than Nixon, Reagan and Bush Jr...

All this "Obama is the second Hitler/Stalin/antichrist, etc..." crap is unfounded BS. It goes from the NRA saying he'll make all guns illegal (the only law he has signed on the subject actually made it legal to carry guns in national parks), O'Reilly saying his taxes will be raised to 50% (Obama only wants them to get back to the rates of the Clinton era, meaning 35% --> 39,6% for the top rate) to Glenn Beck saying ACORN stole the election for Obama (not one single republican senator, representative or governor reported voting irregularities in their state and not one has publicly supported Glenn Beck's theory), to various pundits saying he wants to nationalize healthcare (he never proposed anything of the sort, ever), hell, there's even a thread about Obama wanting to chip everyone, right here on Toms. It's all a load of crap, but hey, facts don't matter anymore. Obama is more centrist/slightly to the right than Clinton, FDR or Johnson and they didn't cause the world to come to an end, now did they?

How about the politicians and pundits calling him the worst thing in the universe first get rid of the religious/anti-science nutjobs and corporate whores among their own first (there'd be none left if they did that, so this is a rhetorical question)?

These days, there is just so much hatred, propaganda and ignorance in politics... The hatred is just so much stronger than when Clinton was in office, I really don't blame people for thinking this hatred is rooted in racism (although I do not subscribe to that theory myself, I'm more a "Karl Rove's spin machine f*cked everything up by making people care more about opinions and spin than about actual facts" kinda guy).

With the few remaining sane republicans almost instantly eliminated more than a year before the presidential elections, Obama remains the least worst of the 2012 candidates by far. Perry has his heart in the right place but is just a dumb puppet of corporate interests (just like the previous Texas governor) and Ron Paul and Herman Cain belong to that rare breed of republicans that do have half a brain (maybe John Huntsman too, but he was eliminated at the get go for being sane) they are just too far out there with their free market fundamentalism that would condemn 90% of the population to poverty (robber baron age style), finally, Romney is a dirty corporate whore who'd sell his own mother and publicly declare eating cyanide is healthy, if his corporate donors asked him to.
Being a Dutchman I can forgive your mis-perceptions and ignorance of American politics. But, someone who didn't know you are not an American might actually think that your opinions on American politics are valid. I just wanna know how you breath with your head is so far up your fart hole; at least a $hit head is easy to recognize.
October 5, 2011 6:11:00 PM

ltrazaklt said:
Gulli , you should travel to America sometime ..and while I personally have not visited the great European Utopia ..my Folks and friends are VERY well traveled in Europe , let list some of thier experiences for you .. (in fact my Ex, and one of my Best Friends since 7th grade now both LIVE in the UK and have for more than a decade)


UK is not really in UE, you know...


ltrazaklt said:

My Folks ..
1) first time in Paris ..PickPocketed ..


Haha!
You were a tourist, it's normal.
You should have read the signs (or not go in the subway)
You can get your stuff back next time you go to Romania.

ltrazaklt said:

David G. Green, Ph.D
Philippe Manière
Paul Belien
Johan Hjertqvist
Friedrich Breyer, Ph.D

though I dont know if they qualify as 'officials'


They are'nt.
October 5, 2011 7:04:06 PM

so it's 'normal' to be stolen from in Paris ..that's nice, and you think it is funny ? you know between things like that and the 'French-IndoChine' and the "hua lo" and 'Operation Vulture' ... it's a wonder anyone goes there at all. fear not though , the gleam of the city of lights is fading fast ..I understand France is now about 30% Muslim, and they use their own 'Security Force' to block off the streets for Friday prayers ..how were the Riots over there by the way ? I saw a lot of burned cars , and I read that one of the police cheifs called it 'intifada' ...
are saying that UK is NOT part of the EU ?
October 5, 2011 7:23:28 PM

Come on now Itrazaklt, tourists are robbed and even murdered over here in the States. It happens everywhere and is definitely not funny no matter where it happens.

Let's try to keep the tribal, nationalistic "your country sucks and mine is awesome" down to a minimum. i.e. Don't attack a person's nationality. People are pretty much the same no matter where they are from. There is good and bad everywhere.

We are all adults here I think with the exception of badge who I am conviced is a deity of some sort. Possibly even the reincarnation of Merlin himself.
October 5, 2011 7:41:52 PM

ltrazaklt said:
so it's 'normal' to be stolen from in Paris ..that's nice, and you think it is funny ? you know between things like that and the 'French-IndoChine' and the "hua lo" and 'Operation Vulture' ... it's a wonder anyone goes there at all. fear not though , the gleam of the city of lights is fading fast ..I understand France is now about 30% Muslim, and they use their own 'Security Force' to block off the streets for Friday prayers ..how were the Riots over there by the way ? I saw a lot of burned cars , and I read that one of the police cheifs called it 'intifada' ...
are saying that UK is NOT part of the EU ?



Be stolen from in Paris? i don't know, i lives for 6 years there and never have been stolen.
Concerning the rest, i surrender :) 
Except for this police chief calling intifada: never heard before.

And i agree with Oldman. My coutry sucks as yours and yours is as awesome as mine.
But it's different, we have a deal and he welcomes me home if my economy would collapse. (I only bring the beer)
October 5, 2011 8:02:09 PM

I was going to say ....its getting waaaay off topic here ..not trying to attack anyone's nationality ..
October 5, 2011 9:04:39 PM

ltrazaklt said:
so it's 'normal' to be stolen from in Paris ..that's nice, and you think it is funny ? you know between things like that and the 'French-IndoChine' and the "hua lo" and 'Operation Vulture' ... it's a wonder anyone goes there at all. fear not though , the gleam of the city of lights is fading fast ..I understand France is now about 30% Muslim, and they use their own 'Security Force' to block off the streets for Friday prayers ..how were the Riots over there by the way ? I saw a lot of burned cars , and I read that one of the police cheifs called it 'intifada' ...
are saying that UK is NOT part of the EU ?


When on a school trip, two of my classmates were almost robbed at knife-point by an amateur.

;) 

At this point I should invent a story of how I saved they day.

But one of the classmates tried to explain to the robber that he wanted to take his camera's SD card out to save his photos in French.

Tried...

He was so busy trying to communicate to the poor thief with the pocket dicitionary.

Fear makes people do the weirdest things.

The thief ended up running away. Took way too long to rob them.

As for me I was busy in the hotel room eating chocolate when it happened. ;) 

Oh well.

Some of you should come over Down Under. Particularly if you come from Britian as a backpacker.

All I can say is the best of luck.

You might not survive, but you will get 15 minutes of fame.

Being the next British backpacker to die here.
October 5, 2011 9:37:45 PM

What about any of us Yankees in the States?
!