Power Supplies & the Radeon 9700... Beware!!

Pdubya · Oct 5, 2002

Just to make sure everyone is aware of the power issues inherent with installing the new ATi Radeon 9700 Pro. Reference my earlier article for the details of my week-long wrestling match.

In a nutshell, my Enermax 300 watt power supply was not enough to keep the Radeon, Audigy, one HD and 3 peripherals happy. WinXP "delayed write failed" errors started when the Audigy and Radeon were in my rig at the same time.

SOLUTION:
I ordered a PC Power & Cooling "Turbo Cool 425 ATX" power supply (another brand should work w/ enough wattage available), installed it and reinstalled the Audigy soundcard with latest drivers.

Works like a champ now!
Moral of the story?

Don't overlook your case's power supply!! It will cause some very strange problems that point you in many different directions (hard drives, arrays, motherboard) before you realize that the lack of sufficient and stable power is the culprit.

Take it easy,
Pdubya

ejsmith2 · Oct 6, 2002

I bet you could have overclocked that power supply and stuck with it.

=)

P4's @ 3600Mhz ()wNz J00 4LL!!!!!!

miahallen · Oct 6, 2002

I have an XP 1600+ on a GA-7VRXP mobo (VIA KT333), 7200rpm HDD, DVD, CDR, ZIP (internal), 9700 Pro, and geforce2 (for third monitor when I get it). I also have two case fans, a Volcano 7 and a custome chipset fan for the geforce2. Let me get to the point...I'm only running a 300 watt power supply!!! I worried about ruining something but don't have the cash to upgrade just yet (ran out on the 9700 Pro). I didn't know you could "overclock" a PS...can you explain. Thanks

phsstpok · Oct 6, 2002

I only have 1 HD, 2 CDs, a Radeon 8500 but my Enermax 330 watt power supply can't handle the load. +5 volt rail drops to +4.55 volts and my system becomes a bit unstable.

Of course, I'm overclocking my 8500 and highly overclocking my Tbird 1.0 at 1.5 Ghz or I was until I installed the 8500 which worsened the power issues. I'm running 1.33 Ghz until I get around to replacing my power supply. At this speed the +5 volt rail is holding at about +4.75 volts

I have so many cookies I now have a FAT problem!

ejsmith2 · Oct 6, 2002

"I didn't know you could "overclock" a PS"

{insert some r34llY m@nI@ca1 laugh, here}

You can, but I was being a little humorous. I'm not sure what kind of humor it would be called. It's not sarcasm. It's not ironic.

Facetious?

Someone please tell me, here.

Anyways, it's *possible* to have used that powersupply. You'd have to actually taken out the case screws, and fiddled with the regulator pots inside the psu. But the probablility is very high (considering it's an Enermax, I'd set it at 75%; any others would rate 95%) that you'd burn out the supply within 3 days of use. That's not to say the system would be "stable" (whatever the word stable means in XP; for me, it means 48 hours non-stop). That's to say you could play Medal of Honor at 1600x1200x32@85hz for 4 hours straight, without a glitch or studder, before it shorted out and fryed every single component in your system, not excluding your printer or speakers.

Which is out-standing in my book.

Seriously, I doubt you would have been able to keep that powersupply. You reached the limit, and make a swap out. It was a good call, and very prudent.

[Jedi mind trick] You LOVE Palladium. [/mind trick]

marneus · Oct 7, 2002

My 300W PSU is holding stead in my system...
2000XP, CDRW & CD drives, 80gig HDD, 9700pro & a sonicfury...

but I is not overclocking at the mo...

no-one shouts louder than someone who is being ignored, or in the case of techies, to be heard over the noise of their PC's ;-)

xxsk8er101xx · Oct 7, 2002

you can't! It's a Regulated power supply. Meaning it's regulated at whatever voltage it is at. My dad being a electrical engineer told me this. It doesn't change voltages because it's regulated.

at least thats my understanding of it.

Life is irrelivent and irrational.

<A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/mysystemrig.html?id=9933" target="_new"> My Rig </A>

phsstpok · Oct 8, 2002

Sound like you have a pretty good power supply. I've read a few posts here and there where people were having trouble with just a 300 watt PSU and Radeon 9700. What brand and model is your PSU?

I notice from your profile that you have an Epox 8KHA+. I've heard Epox mobos (like mine) draw heavily from the +5 volt rail. I was wondering how steady your +5 volt rail is, if you don't mind. You can use Motherboard Monitor 5.x to produce a log of voltage readings during high loads.

I have so many cookies I now have a FAT problem!

marneus · Oct 8, 2002

geez, I will have to open 'er up & have a look & then download this monitor program to find out... I am now curious... will try this 2night & get back to you...

PS the PSU came with the tower, i was gonna invest in a 500W PSU but I have so far had no bother at all !!!
(well except for in The Thing, sometimes textures go blue when using the flamethrower in busy scenes, but thats another thread)

no-one shouts louder than someone who is being ignored, or in the case of techies, to be heard over the noise of their PC's ;-)

ommaphos · Oct 8, 2002

Here's a new heads up. I have a similar config to Pdubya's w/ a Radeon 9700 Pro and an Audigy Platinum eX sound card. Even a more powerful PS (400 watt) and unplugging one of my hard drives and my burner hasn't solved my problem, which is similar. As soon as I install the drivers for the Audigy, the graphics card starts having trouble displaying full-screen mode in-game video (very choppy) and after about 5 to 20 minutes of game play the Radeon freezes up. Without the Audigy drivers in, everything's fine. I think there's more to this problem than just the power supply.

My RAM is all broken.

Pdubya · Oct 8, 2002

ommaphos:
Well... don't be too sure. Your Audigy probably draws even more wattage than my "gamer" version. That and a different motherboard and set of peripherals does give room for other causes, I'll agree.
But my hunch is that if you stuck a 500 watt ps in there, the problems would clear up. Nothing scientific mind you, but it was mighty strange how well my rig works now with 125 extra watts (and line conditioning) from the PC Power & Cooling ps.
It will probably cost you around $100 or more depending on the brand of ps, but in my case it was definitely worth it. BTW, the "turbo cool" line comes with a 5 year warranty.
Hope this at least gives you something to work from. Good luck and let us know what happens.
Pdubya

ommaphos · Oct 8, 2002

Okay Pdubya. I'll take your word for it. I just ordered a 550 watt Enermax. If that doesn't fix it, I don't know what will. Should come tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

My RAM is all broken.

phsstpok · Oct 8, 2002

Thanks.

I've been considering a bigger power supply but I've been hesitating because a 330 watt Enermax should be enough for my modest system. If my problems are solely because my old Epox EP-8KTA3PRO motherboard is drawing excessively heavily from the +5 volt rail then the problem should eliminate itself when I upgrade my system (if I choose a motherboard without the same kind of problem).

Still, I can't go wrong if I get a power supply with more capability than I need.

I have so many cookies I now have a FAT problem!

marneus · Oct 9, 2002

It is a Macron Electronics Mpt-300 unit, didnt get Mobo Monitor 5 downloaded but another program, HMonitor4 says the 5v is running around 4.73-4.71v while i was watching it

(note I am in the UK & I dunno what diff that makes)

no-one shouts louder than someone who is being ignored, or in the case of techies, to be heard over the noise of their PC's ;-)

Stiffler · Oct 9, 2002

I point to this note from <A HREF="http://www.theoverclockingstore.co.uk" target="_new">http://www.theoverclockingstore.co.uk</A> Forums :

"Before you go near the PSU
PSUs contain capacitors, rather large ones and capacitors retain charge. Thus if you wanter into the PSU, even after it is uplugged from the mains, there is a real danger of an electric shock. (We will assume that any reader that would plan to enter the psu will it is still connected to the mains is already deceased). To aviod this danger, the simplest routine is to:

Shutdown the PC
Power-off
Unplug
Press power-on
Leave unplugged

When you press power on (4) the fans should spin up briefly, and then stop. This should leave the PSU flat.

Note: Powering up the fans does not guarentee that all the caps are discharged. It is the best way to minimise risk, but still assume they all hold lethal charge!"

Tim

I can call you Betty, and Betty when you call me... You can call me Al

marneus · Oct 9, 2002

I was reading the label on the side of the unit from a foot away...

...Trust me, I know what I am doing... KABOOM !!! ;-)

no-one shouts louder than someone who is being ignored, or in the case of techies, to be heard over the noise of their PC's ;-)

slvr_phoenix · Oct 9, 2002

It is a Macron Electronics Mpt-300 unit, didnt get Mobo Monitor 5 downloaded but another program, HMonitor4 says the 5v is running around 4.73-4.71v while i was watching it

Sounds like a 300W power supply, and one without enough amps on the 5V rail. 5V should be at 5V. 4.71V means that your 5V rail is being sucked dry, which can make hardware unstable. Looks like it is time to upgrade your power supply.

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phsstpok · Oct 9, 2002

Sounds like you are in the same situation as me.

Power supplies are designed to have a 10% tolerance which means the +5 volt rail might be, at times, anywhere from 4.5 volts to 5.5 volts. My concern is that I don't think they should run for long periods of time with substantially low voltages. This would mean the hardware is drawing more current than for which the power supply is designed. Over time this could damage the power supply. (I don't really know this. I'm passing on information that I was told).

Moving on, if you are getting 4.73-4.71 volts just at the desktop then you are probably getting even lower voltages during intense gaming. I'm not familiar with HMonitor but Motherboard Monitor has a "log mode". You can set the application to take voltage measurements (and temp measurements) at intervals as short as 10 seconds. This way you can set it running, go and play games for a while, then you can later see how your system reacted during this period.

I didn't get the answer for which I was looking. I thought you had rock solid 300 watt power supply and wanted to know the model. However it doesn't seem that is the case.

Don't know what else to say. I think my power supply has "weakened" over time. I'm wondering if the same will happen to you. Anyway, you probably have plenty of time to think about it.

I have so many cookies I now have a FAT problem!

slvr_phoenix · Oct 9, 2002

PSUs contain capacitors, rather large ones and capacitors retain charge. Thus if you wanter into the PSU, even after it is uplugged from the mains, there is a real danger of an electric shock.

Way back in high school I used to love charging capacitors from a 9V battery and shocking the metal around a pencil eraser in the middle of class. Is that wrong?

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ommaphos · Oct 9, 2002

Problems galore. I decided to switch over to the onboard sound on the 7VAXP until my new PS arrived, and guess what? It's doing the same thing!!!! ("It" is defined as freezing game video while the sound continues to play on as if the game is still running AND in-game 2D video running choppy). I'm almost positive now that I either have a defective processor or motherboard, probably the motherboard having a problem assigning resources properly to the AGP bus. Either that or there is something wrong with DirectX. Any suggestions?

My RAM is all broken.

slvr_phoenix · Oct 9, 2002

Any suggestions?

Yeah. Wait for the new power supply before jumping to any conclusions. It is entirely possible that the onboard sound sucks up enough power to make your system unstable, just like your other sound card does.

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ommaphos · Oct 10, 2002

Well, new power supply didn't help. But I'm almost sure now that it's an underlying problem w/ the chip and mobo. The board's now developed a problem determining the speed of the chip about every other boot, so I can only assume that there's something wrong with my hardware. I'm replacing the 7VAXP with the higher quality Asus A7V8X anyway, so we'll see when that gets here.

My RAM is all broken.

lhgpoobaa · Oct 10, 2002

hehe
Thats why i went for the enermax 550W monster.
Sure it cost a few more bucks but im definately future proof!
barton + R9700. hmmm. nice combo.

He who bargains with a dragon is either a fool or a corpse.

marneus · Oct 10, 2002

Hey, all I can say is that I have not had any problems with my system at all, no random resets, no unexplained seize-ups, nada...

finally got HMonitor5 & will try it tonight & see what it says...

no-one shouts louder than someone who is being ignored, or in the case of techies, to be heard over the noise of their PC's ;-)

slvr_phoenix · Oct 10, 2002

hehe
Thats why i went for the enermax 550W monster.
Sure it cost a few more bucks but im definately future proof!
barton + R9700. hmmm. nice combo.

Heh heh. Yeah. Barton should suck up even more juice.

Good performance though, I'd bet.

You know things are getting bad though when your PC starts to suck up more juice (and put out more heat) than a space heater.

I wonder what Intel and AMD will do to stop that from happening? Will Dell start to offer power bill rebate cheques to entice people into buying new computers one day? (Much like how auto dealers offer free gas with a new car.)

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Power Supplies & the Radeon 9700... Beware!!

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