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Dane politicians living high on the hog, an things

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October 4, 2011 1:34:45 AM

So? What's wrong with a fat tax? Why should fat people (the 95% of them who are fat because they eat too much, don't exercise or both as opposed to the 5ish% who can blame it on their genes) get to unload their astronomical healthcare costs unto the general population? You don't have to be born rich to eat healthy and exercise so there's no excuse.
October 4, 2011 1:37:56 AM

I know I know, the only bad tax is one that doesnt exist
October 4, 2011 1:40:49 AM

Denmark is the size of any number of our 50 states. All of which have thier own money issues except the Dakotas and Wyoming.
October 4, 2011 1:41:23 AM

Oh, and having a differing metabolism is surely a good enough reason

Whats next, blues eyes?
Left handed?
Fill in the blank _____ ?
October 4, 2011 2:13:33 AM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Oh, and having a differing metabolism is surely a good enough reason

Whats next, blues eyes?
Left handed?
Fill in the blank _____ ?


A different metabolism? Yeah right, that's only a valid excuse for a tiny minority (who are not even disproportionally affected by a fat tax). Unless you can find an analogy that's more fitting than blue eyes and left handedness (since when do those raise medical costs) why bother strawmanning?
October 4, 2011 2:30:16 AM

How about age?
Those with certasin hereditary tendencies?
Those with hereditary tendecies marrying others with the same or similar ones?
The feeble? The poor suffer from this tax, but its only small, theyre poor right?
And why should the government get a nickle of this money?
I say government should volunteer to oversee the new training program to help these people with a problem that may not be easily fixred, unless its just a penalty?
October 4, 2011 5:45:38 AM

Here's to all you Danish Born to be Wild fat assed inbred 'tards.


October 4, 2011 1:07:47 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
How about age?
Those with certasin hereditary tendencies?
Those with hereditary tendecies marrying others with the same or similar ones?
The feeble? The poor suffer from this tax, but its only small, theyre poor right?
And why should the government get a nickle of this money?
I say government should volunteer to oversee the new training program to help these people with a problem that may not be easily fixred, unless its just a penalty?


Getting old or having a hereditary defect are things that happen to you, no choice involved. Eating fatty food is a choice. Simple as that. The fat tax doesn't tax people for being fat, it taxes them for eating fatty food, so it doesn't tax people who get fat from a normal diet. It is both the simplest, most effective and most fair solution to the problem.

P.S. Denmark already has social programs to help people lead a healthy lifestyle.
October 4, 2011 1:52:46 PM

If people paid for themselves it would be a non-issue. And yes, I agree with Gulli that fat, unhealthy people should have to pay more. However, we have discrimination laws in the USA that prevent insurance providers from charging these unhealthy people more. So, the healthy people that use very little medical care are forced to pay the same premiums as the Big Mac chomping fatty with diabetes.
October 4, 2011 2:14:50 PM

What if the person has eating disorder or mental illness?
What if the person was feed those fatty food as a kid and so continue into adulthood with these bad eating habit?
What if a person had an accident which disable their movement but have not yet adjust to the lower food energy intake?

There are other factors which makes a person obese not by their choice and not due to genetics. The legislator have to be very careful in these grey area.
October 4, 2011 2:22:01 PM

That why I said if a person pays for themself it doesn't matter how unhealthy they want to live. The individual suffers the consquences of their actions, not society as a whole.
October 4, 2011 2:31:01 PM

Headline should be "Danish politicians...". I'm from Denmark and find this tax to be no problem at all. The percent of overweight people in Denmark is less than 10, which is lower than most European countries, and this tax will surely help us maintain that number. We already pay 50% income tax and 25% tax on foreign products, so 5% is really nothing. On the other hand we get: free education, money from the government while studying, money when we are unemployied, free healthcare, free retirement homes, free housing if evicted etc. etc.
October 4, 2011 2:44:41 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
If people paid for themselves it would be a non-issue. And yes, I agree with Gulli that fat, unhealthy people should have to pay more. However, we have discrimination laws in the USA that prevent insurance providers from charging these unhealthy people more. So, the healthy people that use very little medical care are forced to pay the same premiums as the Big Mac chomping fatty with diabetes.


And that's why a fat tax (whose proceeds go to healthcare) is such a good idea (provided there is enough government oversight to force insurers to lower their premiums again accordingly, Denmark has a state run system so they don't have this problem, in the US the individual states might provide the oversight).
October 4, 2011 2:46:25 PM

Pyree said:
What if the person has eating disorder or mental illness?
What if the person was feed those fatty food as a kid and so continue into adulthood with these bad eating habit?
What if a person had an accident which disable their movement but have not yet adjust to the lower food energy intake?

There are other factors which makes a person obese not by their choice and not due to genetics. The legislator have to be very careful in these grey area.


Again, it's not a tax on being fat, it's a tax on buying fatty food.
October 4, 2011 2:46:45 PM

Some don't have a choice but to become obese. Their poor health will become a disability and disadvantage them. Is a government just going to ignore disadvantaged people?

I really don't see any western government will do something as extreme as to ignore the needs of real disadvantage citizen in order to avoid some abuse of the system.

You will probably say if the system isn't there then there is nothing to abuse. But just think of a time in the future you may become one of the unfortunate individual. Hopefully that will change your opinion.
October 4, 2011 2:51:25 PM

@Gulli

oh ok, forgot to stick to the topic sorry

but my last reply is relevant to oldmangamer_73'scomment
October 4, 2011 3:14:34 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Oh, and having a differing metabolism is surely a good enough reason

Whats next, blues eyes?
Left handed?
Fill in the blank _____ ?


read the links, they are taxing fattening foods not fat people. Way to misrepresent a topic! well done.
October 4, 2011 3:15:07 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Oh, and having a differing metabolism is surely a good enough reason

Whats next, blues eyes?
Left handed?
Fill in the blank _____ ?


double post, sorry
October 4, 2011 3:16:07 PM

Pyree said:
What if the person has eating disorder or mental illness?
What if the person was feed those fatty food as a kid and so continue into adulthood with these bad eating habit?
What if a person had an accident which disable their movement but have not yet adjust to the lower food energy intake?

There are other factors which makes a person obese not by their choice and not due to genetics. The legislator have to be very careful in these grey area.


And again the tax is not fattening foods, not fat people, duh.
October 4, 2011 3:19:04 PM

I say sorry, what do you want me to do, send you a virtual beer? (THW forum should have items like that).
October 4, 2011 3:38:18 PM

I think the concept of individual freedom and equality is beyond most people.

Any 'tweak' to the system by government interferes with liberty and equity.
October 4, 2011 7:33:44 PM

Which fits within the topic, and is my point, tho some just dont get it.
I was asked for examples, I gave them, RTFM
Now, again, this is just another excuse to raise taxes
Some may wonder why countries are going broke
Some may wonder why taxes werent as high back in the day, while all along, people said, its no big deal, its easy to afford, meanwhile, were all in debt as countries.

If government first comes in with ways to not spend more, and even cuts, without any true changes, just clean up the waste, rid itself of unnecessary spending, then comes up short, all the while, rids the debts owed, then go for it
October 4, 2011 8:07:34 PM

JAYDEEJOHN said:
Which fits within the topic, and is my point, tho some just dont get it.
I was asked for examples, I gave them, RTFM
Now, again, this is just another excuse to raise taxes


Denmark has staterun healthcare (the option of private healthcare exists but few people choose it because it's so damn expensive, just like in America) so taxes would have to be increased anyway to compensate for the rising healthcare costs stemming from obesity.

Hell, even in countries with 100% private healthcare people would feel it in their pockets if obesity became more widespread because insurance premiums would rise.
October 4, 2011 8:52:33 PM

isnt this the same Gov't that allows 'Hash Bars' or Marijuana Cafes ? and has legalized prostitution ..I am curious how the potheads feel about the 'twinkie tax' ..it seems almost incongruent and disengenuous, ..you let people smoke pot and have sex with hookers , but then claim to be 'looking out for their health' ?? I am curious ..what is the tax rate on the Marijuana ? what is the tax rate on the prostitutes? and how are the 'health benefits' of those integrated (not sure how to word this) ..how are the costs of said smoking related issue or the transmission of STDs factored into the Gov't HealthCare ? it just seems illogical to me or counterproductive ..and what are the Stats on STD's and smoking realted issues in this country ? it just doesnt make sense to me to say that Fat Unhealthy people are costing more while not taxing say condoms for the 'sex obsessed' or Pot for those who cant quit an addiction ?
and just so we are clear ..the US already pretty much has Free Healthcare , go ot ANY Emergency room in the Nation , they are required by law to treat you, whether you have Insurance or not(hell whether your a taxpayer or not, whether your EVEN a legal citizen or not), if they refuse , they WILL get Sued in a heartbeat (with no limit on payouts; I think the Dutch and most Europeans nations have adopted Tort reform, as the Major Factor in cutting healthCare costs thus allowing them to attempt Universal Healthcare) this is not to mention the Countless amount of Volunteer Clinics where they give away $30,000 surgeries for FREE ..
as for Education , again Practically free in the US, ..Free up to high school, Billions in Grants and Scholarships for College, aside the from the fact that no one is stopping anyone from going to a library and reading a book..now that being said , we must also bear in mind that NOT everyone is cut out for College, NOT everyone has the Brains or the Willpower to goto or finish College, But due to discrimination Laws , no one can really be turned away for a chance at it.
October 4, 2011 9:22:47 PM

ltrazaklt said:
isnt this the same Gov't that allows 'Hash Bars' or Marijuana Cafes ? and has legalized prostitution ..I am curious how the potheads feel about the 'twinkie tax' ..it seems almost incongruent and disengenuous, ..you let people smoke pot and have sex with hookers , but then claim to be 'looking out for their health' ?? I am curious ..what is the tax rate on the Marijuana ? what is the tax rate on the prostitutes? and how are the 'health benefits' of those integrated (not sure how to word this) ..how are the costs of said smoking related issue or the transmission of STDs factored into the Gov't HealthCare ? it just seems illogical to me or counterproductive ..and what are the Stats on STD's and smoking realted issues in this country ? it just doesnt make sense to me to say that Fat Unhealthy people are costing more while not taxing say condoms for the 'sex obsessed' or Pot for those who cant quit an addiction ?


Lol at you thinking making pot and prostitution illegal actually stops people from going after these things... One would think Americans learned some lessons from their prohibition era...

P.S. pot is illegal in Denmark. Prostitution is legal and is taxed just like any other work that generates income.
October 4, 2011 10:06:47 PM

Gulli said:
Denmark has staterun healthcare (the option of private healthcare exists but few people choose it because it's so damn expensive, just like in America) so taxes would have to be increased anyway to compensate for the rising healthcare costs stemming from obesity.

Hell, even in countries with 100% private healthcare people would feel it in their pockets if obesity became more widespread because insurance premiums would rise.



Health insurance used to be quite affordable in America. This began to change in the 1970's, funnily enough with the creation of HMOs.

So, thinking Americans ask themselves "why is what used to be very affordable, now too expensive?" We are told it's because of greedy insurance companies and doctors. Thinking Americans know differently.

Why not go back to the policies when healthcare insurance was affordable? Oh no, we can't do that. That wouldn't be progressive, would it?

October 4, 2011 11:15:58 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
Health insurance used to be quite affordable in America. This began to change in the 1970's, funnily enough with the creation of HMOs.

So, thinking Americans ask themselves "why is what used to be very affordable, now too expensive?" We are told it's because of greedy insurance companies and doctors. Thinking Americans know differently.

Why not go back to the policies when healthcare insurance was affordable? Oh no, we can't do that. That wouldn't be progressive, would it?


Doctors making more money, people leading less healthy lifestyles, having an aging population, insurance companies having much more power over doctors and patients than they used to, more advanced medical technology, defensive medicine, longer life expectancy, they all drive up costs and anyonw would be a fool to deny it. Some of these things we can't do anything about, let's try to do something about the remaining ones.
October 5, 2011 4:25:38 AM

oh Denmark , I though you were in Amsterdam , sorry , I alway get those BeNeLux countries confused.. but prostitution is legal there eh?..I am curious as to the tax rates, and the STD stats ..btw , Some places in America in still have legalized prostitution as well..Nevada , and New Orleans in certain jurisdictions .. and Pot is practically legal in many places now as well, or at least Decriminalized ..I geuss we'll find out if its good or bad after a while.

as for the whole Health Care costs issues ..there are waaay too many factors to put into a forum post , but I can tell ya that lack of Tort reform (which I believe Gulli's country has) is a big factor ..the insurance companies are actually pretty simplistic, all they do is run the numbers, numbers and statistics , that's it, they total up X dollars paid out , and divide the number of policies they got coming in ..and dont be fooled by the BS media ..insurance companies fail all the time, they go bankrupt, go belly up , and disappear. even the greedy stock profit driven ones.. thats the thing no one ever seems to notice when they point the finger at companies and corporations ..the Bad ones will eventually get caught, or the consumer will catch on to them and stop buying from them, and those bad companies wether they treat their employees bad or their customers bad.. they will NOT last ..they WILL go under. happens all the time (excluding taxpyer bailouts of course ;) ) ..any good company knows to treat its people good and its customers even better, they know its the ONLY way they will STAY in business.
October 5, 2011 1:25:50 PM

ltrazaklt said:
oh Denmark , I though you were in Amsterdam , sorry , I alway get those BeNeLux countries confused.. but prostitution is legal there eh?..I am curious as to the tax rates, and the STD stats ..btw , Some places in America in still have legalized prostitution as well..Nevada , and New Orleans in certain jurisdictions .. and Pot is practically legal in many places now as well, or at least Decriminalized ..I geuss we'll find out if its good or bad after a while.

as for the whole Health Care costs issues ..there are waaay too many factors to put into a forum post , but I can tell ya that lack of Tort reform (which I believe Gulli's country has) is a big factor ..the insurance companies are actually pretty simplistic, all they do is run the numbers, numbers and statistics , that's it, they total up X dollars paid out , and divide the number of policies they got coming in ..and dont be fooled by the BS media ..insurance companies fail all the time, they go bankrupt, go belly up , and disappear. even the greedy stock profit driven ones.. thats the thing no one ever seems to notice when they point the finger at companies and corporations ..the Bad ones will eventually get caught, or the consumer will catch on to them and stop buying from them, and those bad companies wether they treat their employees bad or their customers bad.. they will NOT last ..they WILL go under. happens all the time (excluding taxpyer bailouts of course ;) ) ..any good company knows to treat its people good and its customers even better, they know its the ONLY way they will STAY in business.


Amsterdam is not a country (it's the capital of The Netherlands) and Denmark is not part of the Benelux (it stands, surprise, surprise, for Belgium-Netherlands-Luxembourg), but I digress...

Prostitution is legal in many European countries, but it's always taxed and surrounded by legislation (condoms are mandatory for example and most countries have outlawed pimping). That's the beauty of legalizing something that would happen anyway: you can exert some control over it, have inspections and recoup the cost to society (which becomes lower because you have to put fewer people in jail) through taxes and fines. Many American libertarians, including Ron Paul share that same idea. Of course a true libertarian would say the government doesn't have the right to ban any voluntary choice, including taking drugs (I don't agree with this because people have been known to become addicted to heroine after one try, so there's not much choice involved).

I think alcohol is a much greater threat to society than pot or tobacco and many experts agree on this (think of it, have you ever heard of someone beating up his wife when he was high on pot?). Still, since people would brew it themselves if it were made illegal we might as well keep it legal and exert some control over it and collect taxes from it to offset some of the damage it does. During the prohibition era many people died or became blind because of methanol poisoning, now this number is much lower because the state can actually inspect breweries. There's also this theory that many drugs become less "interesting" to youths when they're legal (proponents cite lower user rates in countries with a more relaxed attitude).

We should treat shrooms, xtc, LSD and pot the same as we do tobacco, alcohol and caffeine: legalize, tax and regulate because some people will use these things anyway (this is actually very similar to an argument conservatives use against gun control: "if you make guns illegal criminals would still get them somewhere", with the difference that it's much easier to grow some pot in your basement than it is to smuggle a gun from The Ukraine or Brazil to the US).



On tort reform, yes, continental Europe doesn't have all those crazy damage claim cases, because we have civil law instead of common law, the UK is an exception but they have 100% government run healthcare (there is also a private sector but that's optional), well, maybe instead of "but" I should say "therefore" (goverment run healthcare eliminates defensive medicine). However that's only part of the difference. Our doctors are also paid less than American doctors (they still make a lot of money though), this is in part possible because medschool is cheaper as well. In addition we have almost everyone paying at least something into the system but the biggest difference is regulations: healthcare providers, pharmaceutical companies and/or insurers (depending on the system in question) can't just jack up their rates without a damn good explanation to the government and no one may be denied treatment and profit is outlawed, except on optional packages people can choose on top of basic coverage (basic coverage covers all treatment of life, sense or limb threatening conditions, as well as for example reconstructive surgery, it is paid for by the state, optional packages may include things like alternative medicine or laser eye surgery, this is not paid for by the state and providers may make a profit out of it). And it works, free market fundamentalists may not like it but the numbers are very clear on this: Americans do not get what they paid for when compared to other countries. It's an empirical fact. Apparently profit/greed and healthcare just don't go together, maybe that's because healthcare is by definition altruistic.
October 5, 2011 3:07:28 PM

1) I know what the BeNeLux countries are it was a joke ; trying to keep the debate light ; I know that Denmark is not part of those; (nor part of Germany , thanks to certain countries from across 'the pond' ;) )
2) you have still not given anything that shows (other than your personal opinion) that A) Legalizing prostitution and taxing it, shows any kind of improvement on the society as a whole; B) does anything to reduce the spread of STDs. C) is in anyway cost effective to healthcare
3) your argument of 'well people are going to do it anyway' is flawed , people still kill each other; therefore by your argument Murder should be legalized and taxed; using prohibition is a poor example, the net effects of alcoholism remain the same before ,during and after prohibition
4) 'ever heard of someone beating up his wife when high on pot?' yes , happens all the time. sometimes people even beat thier wife or kids when completely sober. (sometimes the issue is financial or stress related , not drug related)
5) yes some Libertarians, and other politicians have argued to legalize certain drugs; it a very touchy and volatile issue ..and it pertains to the balance between Individual Rights and Freedoms , and the reach of the Gov't to affect or control those freedom and rights ..the question is how far does this go , legalize Heroin? or Meth ? or Oxy ? it is a balancing act , I peronally think that kids would stay the heck away more if they got to tour the jails and the hospitals , when I was a kid , they took us all downtown , and introduced us to the Jail (and the people in them)..and showed the possible consequences of our future actions and decisions.. I personally think that showing kids (or adults) the REAL world of what happens to people who use drugs (I am talking about the OD's at the morgue, and the people trying to quit going through DT's and withdrawals ) ..I personally think real world experience has a far greater effect than any legal status. the same goes for the Prostitutes and STDs , if people got to tour what the nurses refer as the 'crotch ward' (and that is as descriptive as I will get here , but believe me there are far more graphic terms I could use) or take for example Motorcycles ; quite frankly they are simply deathtraps (whether you where your helmet or not) Doctors and Nurses call them 'Donorcycles' because when they opted for the 'screw the helmet laws' they also (prolly without even realizing it) opted to become organ donors, now as an Individual Right and/or Freedom, it's your choice to take the risk ..but A) why should I pay for your poor decision? B) to what extent should the Gov't intervene ? ..I just think that real world experience would have more of an affect on behaviour than any legal status , just my own personal opinion here.
6) yes on this we can agree , Tort reform ; however my Ex and one of my best friends now live in the UK and have for more than a decade now, one of them Loves the UK system, my Ex however (and being female she goes to the doctor more than us guys do) she has told me some of the horror stories of the socialized medicine over there.
7) your 'empirical fact' is questionable ..in the North , Canadians and Americans are trading off their prescriptions drugs for surgery or other healthcare. in the last say 100 years , the greatest advances in Medicine have come from the USA , from drugs, to surgeries, to preventive (defensive medicine) from psychology to genetics to research. I have to disagree with your statement that 'Americans do not get what they paid for compare to other countries'
!