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Actual culture flippings in history

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December 8, 2004 5:33:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I don't know
very much about history, could someone tell me if/where/when/how these
things has occured IRL, or point me to someone/something that can?

Thanks

More about : actual culture flippings history

Anonymous
December 8, 2004 11:05:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Examples:

1. Burgundy culturally flips to France after no heir to the Burgundy
throne.

2. Scotland culturally flips to England upon King Stuart of Scotland
inviting to take the throne in England.

3. Protogual culturally flips to Spain in a merger of crowns. (A 100
years later, successfully revolts against Spain.)
Anonymous
December 8, 2004 11:07:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Yes, East Germany culturlly fliped to West Germany.

Poland and the others would be a case of successfully declaring
independence from the USSR.
Anonymous
December 8, 2004 2:32:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

What would be more interesting than culture flips would be civil war or
an independence movement. In Call To Power, this was a feature of the
game. If the happiness in cities got low enough, they would break off
and form a new civilization. Neat features and pretty realistic.

It would also make for an interesting espionage feature. Perhaps force a
country into civil war. Now you can encourage a city to revolt. What if
you were able to convince all the cities from a conquered civilization
to revolt. Imagine the headaches for the other player.


Tom Petrocelli

"Never send a monster to the work of an evil scientist" - Evil Scientist
while chasing Bugs Bunny

On 12/8/2004 11:07 AM, joncnunn@yahoo.com wrote:
> Yes, East Germany culturlly fliped to West Germany.
>
> Poland and the others would be a case of successfully declaring
> independence from the USSR.
>
Anonymous
December 8, 2004 6:36:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

IRL, religion and language are the most massive determinants of
cultural allegiances, but both are a product of culture, to an extent.

I think there is culture flipping at play right now in the Ukraine,
which is demanding that Western European cultural institutions like
fair elections and freedom of speech, become Ukrainian cultural
institutions. Russia meanwhile, which has had a tremendous cultural
influence on the Ukraine in the past, is losing it's cultural grip on
at least a portion of the Ukraine. If the Ukraine, or at least a
portion of it, successfully flips to our side, it will be a huge
military and political boon for those of us who live in the Western
democratic nations.

Note: This is a GROSS oversimplification of a complex situation; if you
want the facts and background, do some research.




Erik wrote:
> I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I don't
know
> very much about history, could someone tell me if/where/when/how
these
> things has occured IRL, or point me to someone/something that can?
>
> Thanks
Anonymous
December 8, 2004 6:40:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

well for me one example would be germany, poland etc leaving soviet rule? I
not sure if its the same though

--
From Adam Webb, Overlag
www.tacticalgamer.com
CS:SOURCE server now active :D 

"Erik" <spam@someoneelse.com> wrote in message
news:o psin1abst2kedvn@datorn.bredbandsbolaget.se...
> I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I don't know
> very much about history, could someone tell me if/where/when/how these
> things has occured IRL, or point me to someone/something that can?
>
> Thanks


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.807 / Virus Database: 549 - Release Date: 07/12/2004
Anonymous
December 8, 2004 11:34:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Erik <spam@someoneelse.com> wrote in
news:o psin1abst2kedvn@datorn.bredbandsbolaget.se:

> I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I don't
> know very much about history, could someone tell me if/where/when/how
> these things has occured IRL, or point me to someone/something that
> can?


Texas ?

data64
Anonymous
December 9, 2004 5:16:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Actually, I hear that New England is under some very strong culture
pressure from Canada.
Anonymous
December 9, 2004 11:54:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Erik" <spam@someoneelse.com> wrote in message
news:o psin1abst2kedvn@datorn.bredbandsbolaget.se...
> I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I don't know
> very much about history, could someone tell me if/where/when/how these
> things has occured IRL, or point me to someone/something that can?
>
> Thanks

I could see that maybe in the distant future the whole of New Zealand would
flip over to Australia. Then again, most of the Kiwis are already here, down
at Bondi and collecting the dole ;-)
Anonymous
December 10, 2004 2:43:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

data64 <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>> I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I don't
>> know very much about history, could someone tell me
>> if/where/when/how these things has occured IRL, or point me to
>> someone/something that can?
>
> Texas ?

nice try. that was an annexation, usually cultural flips don´t equal
bullets, provocations and wars ;-)
Anonymous
December 10, 2004 4:44:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 23:43:02 +0100, "Tomislav Grabic"
<grabic@uni-duesseldorf.de> wrote:

>data64 <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>> I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I don't
>>> know very much about history, could someone tell me
>>> if/where/when/how these things has occured IRL, or point me to
>>> someone/something that can?
>>
>> Texas ?
>
>nice try. that was an annexation, usually cultural flips don´t equal
>bullets, provocations and wars ;-)

I thought the war was with Mexico who they broke off from. I can't
imagine anything but a small settlement would defect without a fight
from their rulers.
Anonymous
December 10, 2004 4:44:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On 9 Dec 2004 14:16:46 -0800, joncnunn@yahoo.com wrote:

>Actually, I hear that New England is under some very strong culture
>pressure from Canada.

The only cultural influence Canada has on NE is the sale of weed.
Most New Englanders thing Canada is nuts.
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 1:06:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Tomislav Grabic" <grabic@uni-duesseldorf.de> wrote in message
news:cpakb8$867$1@online.de...
> data64 <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>> I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I don't
>>> know very much about history, could someone tell me
>>> if/where/when/how these things has occured IRL, or point me to
>>> someone/something that can?
>>
>> Texas ?
>
> nice try. that was an annexation, usually cultural flips don´t equal
> bullets, provocations and wars ;-)

Are you kidding? They are very much a part of that.
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 1:28:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

P12 <nowhere@all.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 23:43:02 +0100, "Tomislav Grabic"
> <grabic@uni-duesseldorf.de> wrote:
>
>> data64 <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>> I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I
>>>> don't know very much about history, could someone tell me
>>>> if/where/when/how these things has occured IRL, or point me to
>>>> someone/something that can?
>>>
>>> Texas ?
>>
>> nice try. that was an annexation, usually cultural flips don´t equal
>> bullets, provocations and wars ;-)
>
> I thought the war was with Mexico who they broke off from.

depends on your point of view.
Anonymous
December 12, 2004 11:43:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Nicholas Byram <n.byram@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Tomislav Grabic" <grabic@uni-duesseldorf.de> wrote in message
> news:cpakb8$867$1@online.de...
>> data64 <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>> I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I
>>>> don't know very much about history, could someone tell me
>>>> if/where/when/how these things has occured IRL, or point me to
>>>> someone/something that can?
>>>
>>> Texas ?
>>
>> nice try. that was an annexation, usually cultural flips don´t equal
>> bullets, provocations and wars ;-)
>
> Are you kidding? They are very much a part of that.

true - not in Civ though
Anonymous
December 13, 2004 1:21:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Texas is somewhat complex:

1830s : Declares Independence from Mexico.
(Texan-Mexican War)

Upon Indepence being granted, Texans admire the US culture so much they
declare they want to join, but this is rebuffled!

In the 1840s, Texans agree admire the US culture so much that they want
to join. This time it's accepted. (Difference from Civ 3 where you
don't get a second chance)

US-Mexican war follows, in a tricky way:

US sends an undersized unit thru disputed territory down to the edge of
the disputed territory and waits for it to be attacked. Then the
politicans call it an attack on US soil, and congress declares war.

US conquers the territory it wants, plus takes enough cities for the
Mexican govt to talk peace. (Includes Mexico City.) The US then sends
money + returns the cities it didn't want for peace.
December 14, 2004 2:22:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Wed, 08 Dec 2004 11:32:40 -0500, Tom Petrocelli
<petrocelli@adelphia.net> wrote:

>What would be more interesting than culture flips would be civil war or
>an independence movement. In Call To Power, this was a feature of the
>game. If the happiness in cities got low enough, they would break off
>and form a new civilization. Neat features and pretty realistic.


I like the Civil War idea. It could mean an additional civ to conquer
and/or befriend. :) 


Buck
--
For what it's worth.
Anonymous
December 15, 2004 6:42:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Suddenly, Erik, drunk as a lemur, stumbled out of the darkness and
exclaimed:

> I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I don't
> know very much about history, could someone tell me if/where/when/how
> these things has occured IRL, or point me to someone/something that
> can?
>

I would count West Virginia at the start of the ACW as a culture flip.

--
Billy Yank

"Divine Comedy has the hallmarks of a bad fanfic. It's a crossover,
and the author appears in the story as a central character. In fact,
we should all be glad that Dante wasn't into furry."
- Nockermensch

Billy Yank's Baldur's Gate Photo Portraits
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2xvw6/
Anonymous
December 17, 2004 4:23:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Actually, I think Texas and California (Bear Flag revolt) both are
cultural flips that the original owner of the cities didn't like and
then attacked. On the Bear Flag revolt:

"The first conquest of California, in 1846, by the Americans, with the
exception of the skirmish at Petaluma and another towards Monterey, was
achieved without a battle. We simply marched all over California, from
Sonoma to San Diego, and raised the American flag without opposition or
protest. We tried to find an enemy, but could not."
>From www.sfmuseum.org
Anonymous
January 2, 2005 5:55:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Here ind Denmark we have an island, (Bornholm) that in 17th og 18th century
had a referendum on were they should belong to Denmark or Sweden. And they
chose Denmark despit the fact that the were Swedish at the time.
In an onther part of Sweden (Skåne) the hat a survey some years back on
where they should belong to Sweden or Denmark. And a third said the would
rather be Danish. So there a potential for culture flipping.

And after a war in 1865, Germany conqued a part of southern Jutland (in
Denmark). But after WWI (in 1921) a referandum was held in the three former
counties. Two chose Germany and one (the most northen) chose Denmark -
flipping from Germany til Denmark.

The German "adoption" of Austria and Czechoslovakia before WWII can also
been seen as "culture flipping" because a large part of the population
rejoice when the german drove into their country.

- Baskedyt

"Billy Yank" <billyUSCOREyank@verizonDOT.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:Xns95BFE765D1E7Ebillyyanknetzeronet@199.45.49.11...
> Suddenly, Erik, drunk as a lemur, stumbled out of the darkness and
> exclaimed:
>
> > I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I don't
> > know very much about history, could someone tell me if/where/when/how
> > these things has occured IRL, or point me to someone/something that
> > can?
> >
>
> I would count West Virginia at the start of the ACW as a culture flip.
>
> --
> Billy Yank
>
> "Divine Comedy has the hallmarks of a bad fanfic. It's a crossover,
> and the author appears in the story as a central character. In fact,
> we should all be glad that Dante wasn't into furry."
> - Nockermensch
>
> Billy Yank's Baldur's Gate Photo Portraits
> http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2xvw6/
>
Anonymous
January 3, 2005 7:34:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:55:10 +0100, Baskedyt <mail@Baskedyt.dk> wrote:
>
> And after a war in 1865, Germany conqued a part of southern Jutland (in
> Denmark).

Yes, this is when some of my ancestors left Denmark to come to the USA,
I think. Germany took their land and gave it to german people.

> But after WWI (in 1921) a referandum was held in the three former
> counties. Two chose Germany and one (the most northen) chose Denmark -
> flipping from Germany til Denmark.

Is the island of Sylt (Syld) one of these places?

Dave Hinz
Anonymous
January 4, 2005 6:36:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

> > But after WWI (in 1921) a referandum was held in the three former
> > counties. Two chose Germany and one (the most northen) chose Denmark -
> > flipping from Germany til Denmark.
>
> Is the island of Sylt (Syld) one of these places?

Yes it is. It is in the northen part of the middle county (Slesvig), which
is now part of Germany. The border between Denmark and Germeany runs just
north of Sylt, and that makes it the most northen part of Germany.

> Yes, this is when some of my ancestors left Denmark to come to the USA,
> I think. Germany took their land and gave it to german people.

Well, they didn't gave it to the Germans, they just took it... That part of
Danmark (and now Germany) have always had a large part of Germans and Danes
mixed together, and the areas that a now a part of Germany still have a lot
of Danes. There a still Danish schools, even a High School, and a newspaper.
And by looking at your name (Hinz), a would say that you come from the
German culture, but I can't be sure, because of the mixed cultures...

- Baskedyt

"Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:33tah0F43cbb9U8@individual.net...
> On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:55:10 +0100, Baskedyt <mail@Baskedyt.dk> wrote:
> >
> > And after a war in 1865, Germany conqued a part of southern Jutland (in
> > Denmark).
>
> Yes, this is when some of my ancestors left Denmark to come to the USA,
> I think. Germany took their land and gave it to german people.
>
> > But after WWI (in 1921) a referandum was held in the three former
> > counties. Two chose Germany and one (the most northen) chose Denmark -
> > flipping from Germany til Denmark.
>
> Is the island of Sylt (Syld) one of these places?
>
> Dave Hinz
Anonymous
January 4, 2005 9:55:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:36:46 +0100, Baskedyt <mail@Baskedyt.dk> wrote:
>> > But after WWI (in 1921) a referandum was held in the three former
>> > counties. Two chose Germany and one (the most northen) chose Denmark -
>> > flipping from Germany til Denmark.
>>
>> Is the island of Sylt (Syld) one of these places?
>
> Yes it is. It is in the northen part of the middle county (Slesvig), which
> is now part of Germany. The border between Denmark and Germeany runs just
> north of Sylt, and that makes it the most northen part of Germany.
>
>> Yes, this is when some of my ancestors left Denmark to come to the USA,
>> I think. Germany took their land and gave it to german people.
>
> Well, they didn't gave it to the Germans, they just took it... That part of
> Danmark (and now Germany) have always had a large part of Germans and Danes
> mixed together, and the areas that a now a part of Germany still have a lot
> of Danes. There a still Danish schools, even a High School, and a newspaper.
> And by looking at your name (Hinz), a would say that you come from the
> German culture, but I can't be sure, because of the mixed cultures...

My Hinz line is from Pommern; the Danes in my family are Christiansen
(which, in 1860s, may have been a patronym). I'm still working on my
Norwegian lines, but the Danish research will be next since I can already
read the language fairly well.

Thanks for the confirmation on Sylt(d).

Dave Hinz
Anonymous
January 9, 2005 12:50:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

In article <cpakb8$867$1@online.de>,
"Tomislav Grabic" <grabic@uni-duesseldorf.de> wrote:

> data64 <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> >> I'm kinda fascinated by the whole deal with culture flipping. I don't
> >> know very much about history, could someone tell me
> >> if/where/when/how these things has occured IRL, or point me to
> >> someone/something that can?
> >
> > Texas ?
>
> nice try. that was an annexation, usually cultural flips don´t equal
> bullets, provocations and wars ;-)

One day in the future, it is not inconceivable that the proud Texans
could branch off and form their own independent nation state...you know,
when the debt-riddled US national economy implodes, the federal
government becomes intolerably burdensome and ineffective, and China
invades the west coast, etc.

Doug
Anonymous
January 9, 2005 7:18:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

China coudn't invade Taiwan if they wanted to today or tomorrow or in the
next 10 - 15 years, so i thint he west coast is safe from them for a while,
from Mexico however???

"Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:34074jF442jjgU1@individual.net...
> On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:36:46 +0100, Baskedyt <mail@Baskedyt.dk> wrote:
>>> > But after WWI (in 1921) a referandum was held in the three former
>>> > counties. Two chose Germany and one (the most northen) chose Denmark -
>>> > flipping from Germany til Denmark.
>>>
>>> Is the island of Sylt (Syld) one of these places?
>>
>> Yes it is. It is in the northen part of the middle county (Slesvig),
>> which
>> is now part of Germany. The border between Denmark and Germeany runs just
>> north of Sylt, and that makes it the most northen part of Germany.
>>
>>> Yes, this is when some of my ancestors left Denmark to come to the USA,
>>> I think. Germany took their land and gave it to german people.
>>
>> Well, they didn't gave it to the Germans, they just took it... That part
>> of
>> Danmark (and now Germany) have always had a large part of Germans and
>> Danes
>> mixed together, and the areas that a now a part of Germany still have a
>> lot
>> of Danes. There a still Danish schools, even a High School, and a
>> newspaper.
>> And by looking at your name (Hinz), a would say that you come from the
>> German culture, but I can't be sure, because of the mixed cultures...
>
> My Hinz line is from Pommern; the Danes in my family are Christiansen
> (which, in 1860s, may have been a patronym). I'm still working on my
> Norwegian lines, but the Danish research will be next since I can already
> read the language fairly well.
>
> Thanks for the confirmation on Sylt(d).
>
> Dave Hinz
>
Anonymous
January 9, 2005 7:19:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

In article <crq7r4$uu6$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
"John Smith" <someone@microsoft.com> wrote:

> China coudn't invade Taiwan if they wanted to today or tomorrow or in the
> next 10 - 15 years, so i thint he west coast is safe from them for a while,
> from Mexico however???

Why do you say that? They don't seem that far off from means, though
politically it might take longer to get to that point in international
relations. The nature of China is patience. 10-15 years might be a
reasonable time window when they might become sufficiently
militaristically and economically threatening both to Taiwan, which they
very much would like to reabsorb, and to the US if it came down to it.
Spread as thinly as the US is at present fighting two unwinnable and
interminable police actions right now, China could conceivably take
advantage if it were in their interests. It's not really at the moment,
but in 5-10 years it might be. I live in the Seattle area, so I'm not
too thrilled about being first in the gunsights if they ever head east
to annex a few thousand Starbucks branches.

Doug
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 1:11:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

1 Battlegroup off the coast of taiwan (other side from Taiwan) would be
okay. Missles would be intercepted by patriot system as best they coud, a
coupe nuclear powered subs operating without the taiwanesse subs could tae
out the Chinese subs (Taiwan's subs at the ends of the staight to stop new
ones coming in). then US fighters could take out ay Chinese Migs, transport
ships etc, either from a aircraft carrier or Okinawa.

the PRC may go nuclear, but thats the M.A.D. option of course, i;m sure
there are many "General Macarthurs" in todays US Army etc


"DigitalXS" <spamshredder@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:spamshredder-90CC98.23513408012005@news.gte.net...
> In article <crq7r4$uu6$1@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
> "John Smith" <someone@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> China coudn't invade Taiwan if they wanted to today or tomorrow or in the
>> next 10 - 15 years, so i thint he west coast is safe from them for a
>> while,
>> from Mexico however???
>
> Why do you say that? They don't seem that far off from means, though
> politically it might take longer to get to that point in international
> relations. The nature of China is patience. 10-15 years might be a
> reasonable time window when they might become sufficiently
> militaristically and economically threatening both to Taiwan, which they
> very much would like to reabsorb, and to the US if it came down to it.
> Spread as thinly as the US is at present fighting two unwinnable and
> interminable police actions right now, China could conceivably take
> advantage if it were in their interests. It's not really at the moment,
> but in 5-10 years it might be. I live in the Seattle area, so I'm not
> too thrilled about being first in the gunsights if they ever head east
> to annex a few thousand Starbucks branches.
>
> Doug
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 1:11:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Do you work for the Chinese intelligence agency? You seem very up-to-date on
that part,
and very well informed.
Is the treat from China really that reel? I know they don't like Taiwan, but
invading (or bombing) the US?!? That would really be MAD! They can purhaps
make a sting or two, but without nukes, that can't really hurt them. And
even China will not use nukes - they are not THAT crazy...
I live in Denmark (in the EU) and after the Iron-curtain has gone, I feel
pretty safe. Even though there is only one country between both Iraq and
Iran and the EU (actually there is also only one country between EU and
China, but then they had to go all through Russia).

- Baskedyt


"John Smith" <someone@microsoft.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:crqsfm$c3q$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> 1 Battlegroup off the coast of taiwan (other side from Taiwan) would be
> okay. Missles would be intercepted by patriot system as best they coud, a
> coupe nuclear powered subs operating without the taiwanesse subs could tae
> out the Chinese subs (Taiwan's subs at the ends of the staight to stop new
> ones coming in). then US fighters could take out ay Chinese Migs,
transport
> ships etc, either from a aircraft carrier or Okinawa.
>
> the PRC may go nuclear, but thats the M.A.D. option of course, i;m sure
> there are many "General Macarthurs" in todays US Army etc
>
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 1:11:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

> Is the treat from China really that reel?

Hey, I'd like a reel from China, it might be a treat. ;-)


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/
Anonymous
January 11, 2005 2:13:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

No, (just read alot books & internet). i am very pro ROC (taiwan) & think
the world should stand up to Communist China, instead of bowing to almost
every demand. Good on the EU for keeping the weapons freeze in place!

"Baskedyt" <mail@Baskedyt.dk> wrote in message
news:41e1707a$0$36609$edfadb0f@dread15.news.tele.dk...
> Do you work for the Chinese intelligence agency? You seem very up-to-date
> on
> that part,
> and very well informed.
> Is the treat from China really that reel? I know they don't like Taiwan,
> but
> invading (or bombing) the US?!? That would really be MAD! They can purhaps
> make a sting or two, but without nukes, that can't really hurt them. And
> even China will not use nukes - they are not THAT crazy...
> I live in Denmark (in the EU) and after the Iron-curtain has gone, I feel
> pretty safe. Even though there is only one country between both Iraq and
> Iran and the EU (actually there is also only one country between EU and
> China, but then they had to go all through Russia).
>
> - Baskedyt
>
>
> "John Smith" <someone@microsoft.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:crqsfm$c3q$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
>> 1 Battlegroup off the coast of taiwan (other side from Taiwan) would be
>> okay. Missles would be intercepted by patriot system as best they coud,
>> a
>> coupe nuclear powered subs operating without the taiwanesse subs could
>> tae
>> out the Chinese subs (Taiwan's subs at the ends of the staight to stop
>> new
>> ones coming in). then US fighters could take out ay Chinese Migs,
> transport
>> ships etc, either from a aircraft carrier or Okinawa.
>>
>> the PRC may go nuclear, but thats the M.A.D. option of course, i;m sure
>> there are many "General Macarthurs" in todays US Army etc
>>
>
>
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 11:00:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Took me a while to think about this so i lost the early part of the
thread...

but anyway, what about this?
Australia was a "barbarian nation" pre 1788. Then the English commenced
settlement, and there were also various colonies / cities established by
various other European nations throughout the 1800's.

But, by and large, by 1850 this was well and truely an English outpost
nation and in Civ terms would be a continent as part of the English /
British civ.

Then WWI comes along and the decline of the English empire commences. US
cultrally starts to become more significant here and by the end of WWII, I
would suggest Australia has culture flipped from the English to the USA - to
the extent we follow USA into the Korean conflict Vietnam even before it
becomes a "police action", and we have followed the US into Iraq twice since
then as well as Afghanistan etc.

So a very peaceful culture flip, between two (effectively) allied nations.

Garrie
Anonymous
January 23, 2005 1:37:41 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

I just thought of another one. When Prince Ranier's family took over
Monaco, they ruled a couple of towns that had citrus and olive orchards.
These towns later revolted and joined France, forcing the prince to turn to
gambling as a source of income.

--
Billy Yank

"Divine Comedy has the hallmarks of a bad fanfic. It's a crossover,
and the author appears in the story as a central character. In fact,
we should all be glad that Dante wasn't into furry."
- Nockermensch in rec.games.frp.dnd

Billy Yank's Baldur's Gate Photo Portraits
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2xvw6/
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 1:04:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Garrie Irons" <girons@optusnet.deletethis.andthis.com.au> wrote in message
news:41e78a7d$0$2625$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Took me a while to think about this so i lost the early part of the
> thread...
>
> but anyway, what about this?
> Australia was a "barbarian nation" pre 1788. Then the English commenced
> settlement, and there were also various colonies / cities established by
> various other European nations throughout the 1800's.
>

I always thought all the colonies and towns were founded by the British.
Also the "barbarians" were tribal and had no nation to speak of. The British
legally declared the continent "terra nullius" (empty land) so simply took
it as they wished.

> But, by and large, by 1850 this was well and truely an English outpost
> nation and in Civ terms would be a continent as part of the English /
> British civ.
>
> Then WWI comes along and the decline of the English empire commences. US
> cultrally starts to become more significant here and by the end of WWII, I
> would suggest Australia has culture flipped from the English to the USA -
to
> the extent we follow USA into the Korean conflict Vietnam even before it
> becomes a "police action", and we have followed the US into Iraq twice
since
> then as well as Afghanistan etc.
>
> So a very peaceful culture flip, between two (effectively) allied nations.
>

Not a culture flip.....those were merely alliances. Australia has been an
independent country since 1901 although we still have a foreign head of
state, the Queen of England.

> Garrie
>
>
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 9:34:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Byron Creek" <byroncreek@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KRcLd.141803$K7.48811@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Garrie Irons" <girons@optusnet.deletethis.andthis.com.au> wrote in
message
> news:41e78a7d$0$2625$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > Took me a while to think about this so i lost the early part of the
> > thread...
> >
> > but anyway, what about this?
> > Australia was a "barbarian nation" pre 1788. Then the English commenced
> > settlement, and there were also various colonies / cities established by
> > various other European nations throughout the 1800's.
> >
>
> I always thought all the colonies and towns were founded by the British.
This might be the case but where do you think "Barossa Valley", "Germonton"
(later became "holbrook" due to a thing called a war), and other such areas
got names from? Look at place names in this country and they tell most of
the story - "blacktown", western Sydney is simply "Black's Town" smashed
together (well documented, I'm not making it up, look at
blacktown.nsw.gov.au under history - aboriginal)



> Also the "barbarians" were tribal and had no nation to speak of.
Careful, your aboriginal status is showing even more than mine is! ;)  >The
British
> legally declared the continent "terra nullius" (empty land) so simply took
> it as they wished.
>
"Terra Nullis" was a legal means of sidestepping the number of troops needed
to subdue a "warring nation", and to allow the frequent "kulling" of
aboriginal tribes (the last recorded, officially recognised "kull" taking
place in 1956 or so near Peak Hill NSW). Even countries at war weren't
supposed to round up non-combatants and execute them, even in the 18th
century. But if you declare them part of the wildlife - by declaring "Terra
Nullis" - then hey they're just an animal.

If done this (or last) century the British would be charged with genocide.


> > But, by and large, by 1850 this was well and truely an English outpost
> > nation and in Civ terms would be a continent as part of the English /
> > British civ.
> >
> > Then WWI comes along and the decline of the English empire commences. US
> > cultrally starts to become more significant here and by the end of WWII,
I
> > would suggest Australia has culture flipped from the English to the
USA -
> to
> > the extent we follow USA into the Korean conflict Vietnam even before it
> > becomes a "police action", and we have followed the US into Iraq twice
> since
> > then as well as Afghanistan etc.
> >
> > So a very peaceful culture flip, between two (effectively) allied
nations.
> >
>
> Not a culture flip.....those were merely alliances. Australia has been an
> independent country since 1901 although we still have a foreign head of
> state, the Queen of England.
>
She's as much the head of state here as she is in England - what would
actually happen if she tried to veto an act of parliament? LOL!

And for an independant nation we waited a long time to join in two wars
which were taking place ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE PLANET at the time we
joined in! We were only mildly more independant than say Papua - New Ginea
was from us in 1975 (and it's not even mentioned in school that they were
ever an Australian protectorate!)
But in terms of CULTURE I think we are more USA than UK. And in the next 50
years we will be islamic the only question is will we be arabic/middle
eastern, or asiatic? - it is the religious duty of an islamic woman to have
MANY children wheras English Christian descendants are currently having less
than 1 child each on average. And population changes are based on averages,
not the fact that your sister is having 10 children. (the social groups with
the most children are first and second generation migrants, so the 5th
generation white australians will decline [in population rank terms] over
the next 50 years). This change may be less noticable in those areas
affluent n-th generation Australians choose to retire to such as coastal NSW
& QLD.

But I would like to see a good attempt do disuade me from my opinion that we
have culture flipped?
Garrie
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 1:08:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Garrie Irons" <girons@optusnet.deletethis.andthis.com.au> wrote in message
news:41fddfe1$0$14721$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> "Byron Creek" <byroncreek@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:KRcLd.141803$K7.48811@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > "Garrie Irons" <girons@optusnet.deletethis.andthis.com.au> wrote in
> message
> > news:41e78a7d$0$2625$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > > Took me a while to think about this so i lost the early part of the
> > > thread...
> > >
> > > but anyway, what about this?
> > > Australia was a "barbarian nation" pre 1788. Then the English
commenced
> > > settlement, and there were also various colonies / cities established
by
> > > various other European nations throughout the 1800's.
> > >
> >
> > I always thought all the colonies and towns were founded by the British.
> This might be the case but where do you think "Barossa Valley",
"Germonton"
> (later became "holbrook" due to a thing called a war), and other such
areas
> got names from? Look at place names in this country and they tell most of
> the story - "blacktown", western Sydney is simply "Black's Town" smashed
> together (well documented, I'm not making it up, look at
> blacktown.nsw.gov.au under history - aboriginal)

I know all about that........I work in the Blacktown area. What a
shithole!!!

>
>
>
> > Also the "barbarians" were tribal and had no nation to speak of.
> Careful, your aboriginal status is showing even more than mine is! ;) 

I have no boong in me as far as I know. I'm actually a descendant of the
early settlers (pre 1820). Who knows, my ancestors may have been shooting at
yours! And no, I won't say sorry!! ;-)

> > The British
> > legally declared the continent "terra nullius" (empty land) so simply
took
> > it as they wished.
> >
> "Terra Nullis" was a legal means of sidestepping the number of troops
needed
> to subdue a "warring nation", and to allow the frequent "kulling" of
> aboriginal tribes (the last recorded, officially recognised "kull" taking
> place in 1956 or so near Peak Hill NSW). Even countries at war weren't
> supposed to round up non-combatants and execute them, even in the 18th
> century. But if you declare them part of the wildlife - by declaring
"Terra
> Nullis" - then hey they're just an animal.
>

Exactly my point..........it allowed the British to take the land as they
wished!

> If done this (or last) century the British would be charged with genocide.
>

Would have been worse if the French or Dutch got to Australia first!!

>
> > > But, by and large, by 1850 this was well and truely an English outpost
> > > nation and in Civ terms would be a continent as part of the English /
> > > British civ.
> > >
> > > Then WWI comes along and the decline of the English empire commences.
US
> > > cultrally starts to become more significant here and by the end of
WWII,
> I
> > > would suggest Australia has culture flipped from the English to the
> USA -
> > to
> > > the extent we follow USA into the Korean conflict Vietnam even before
it
> > > becomes a "police action", and we have followed the US into Iraq twice
> > since
> > > then as well as Afghanistan etc.
> > >
> > > So a very peaceful culture flip, between two (effectively) allied
> nations.
> > >
> >
> > Not a culture flip.....those were merely alliances. Australia has been
an
> > independent country since 1901 although we still have a foreign head of
> > state, the Queen of England.
> >
> She's as much the head of state here as she is in England - what would
> actually happen if she tried to veto an act of parliament? LOL!
>
> And for an independant nation we waited a long time to join in two wars
> which were taking place ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE PLANET at the time we
> joined in! We were only mildly more independant than say Papua - New Ginea
> was from us in 1975 (and it's not even mentioned in school that they were
> ever an Australian protectorate!)
> But in terms of CULTURE I think we are more USA than UK. And in the next
50
> years we will be islamic the only question is will we be arabic/middle
> eastern, or asiatic? - it is the religious duty of an islamic woman to
have
> MANY children wheras English Christian descendants are currently having
less
> than 1 child each on average. And population changes are based on
averages,
> not the fact that your sister is having 10 children. (the social groups
with
> the most children are first and second generation migrants, so the 5th
> generation white australians will decline [in population rank terms] over
> the next 50 years). This change may be less noticable in those areas
> affluent n-th generation Australians choose to retire to such as coastal
NSW
> & QLD.
>
> But I would like to see a good attempt do disuade me from my opinion that
we
> have culture flipped?

Well, we haven't culture flipped otherwise Australia would be the 52nd state
of the USA. True, we have followed them into many wars over the decades but
so have many other countries. Also true is that our "culture" follows the US
more than British but most countries in the world have been Americanised to
a great extent.
Big Mac anyone? Washed down with a Coke while taking a trip into Marlboro
country.
Most citizens of the world are aware of these brands, probably the three
most reconizable brands on earth and available almost everywhere!!

> Garrie
>
>
>
Anonymous
February 2, 2005 11:20:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Byron Creek" <byroncreek@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:W%xLd.143152$K7.68344@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Garrie Irons" <girons@optusnet.deletethis.andthis.com.au> wrote in
message
> news:41fddfe1$0$14721$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > "Byron Creek" <byroncreek@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:KRcLd.141803$K7.48811@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > >
> > > "Garrie Irons" <girons@optusnet.deletethis.andthis.com.au> wrote in
> > message
> > > news:41e78a7d$0$2625$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > > I always thought all the colonies and towns were founded by the
British.
> > This might be the case but where do you think "Barossa Valley",
> "Germonton"
> > (later became "holbrook" due to a thing called a war), and other such
> areas
> > got names from? Look at place names in this country and they tell most
of
> > the story - "blacktown", western Sydney is simply "Black's Town" smashed
> > together (well documented, I'm not making it up, look at
> > blacktown.nsw.gov.au under history - aboriginal)
>
> I know all about that........I work in the Blacktown area. What a
> shithole!!!
>
Sorry to hear you don't like the place. I own a house there...

> >
> >
> >
> > > Also the "barbarians" were tribal and had no nation to speak of.
> > Careful, your aboriginal status is showing even more than mine is! ;) 
>
> I have no boong in me as far as I know. I'm actually a descendant of the
> early settlers (pre 1820). Who knows, my ancestors may have been shooting
at
> yours! And no, I won't say sorry!! ;-)
>
Yeah, I've got first fleeters in both redcoats and white shirts as well as a
large mix of other European nations. I never said I'm not white only that
you're making it more obvious - at least you were staying respectable about
it in your previous post rather than this most recent one.
<<SNIP>>
> > "Terra Nullis" was a legal means of sidestepping the number of troops
> needed
> > to subdue a "warring nation", and to allow the frequent "kulling" of
> > aboriginal tribes (the last recorded, officially recognised "kull"
taking
> > place in 1956 or so near Peak Hill NSW). Even countries at war weren't
> > supposed to round up non-combatants and execute them, even in the 18th
> > century. But if you declare them part of the wildlife - by declaring
> "Terra
> > Nullis" - then hey they're just an animal.
> >
>
> Exactly my point..........it allowed the British to take the land as they
> wished!
>
Not many ppl argue why it was done, just if it was reasonable given
international law at the time.
The biggest difference between the state of (indigenous) culture in
Australia and New Zeland at the time, was the ability of the locals to wage
a war.

> > If done this (or last) century the British would be charged with
genocide.
> >
>
> Would have been worse if the French or Dutch got to Australia first!!
>
Hey - I don't think there'd be any land rights, there wouldn't be a
recognisable group to ask for them. But hey, compare that to Tasmania, the
Riverina - and no doubt other areas of Australia which in truth have been
repopulated by tribes endemic to other parts of the country.
> >
<<SNIP>>
> >
> > But I would like to see a good attempt do disuade me from my opinion
that
> we
> > have culture flipped?
>
> Well, we haven't culture flipped otherwise Australia would be the 52nd
state
> of the USA. True, we have followed them into many wars over the decades
but
> so have many other countries. Also true is that our "culture" follows the
US
> more than British but most countries in the world have been Americanised
to
> a great extent.
> Big Mac anyone? Washed down with a Coke while taking a trip into Marlboro
> country.
> Most citizens of the world are aware of these brands, probably the three
> most reconizable brands on earth and available almost everywhere!!
>
I don't think many RL situations are as cut and dried as they are in a
rule-driven strategic game.
But I agree you've gotten the big 3 pretty much there.

I think in terms of "culture flipping" most RL sociologists would point to
the death of local
language / dialect as being more significant than the ability to have a say
in the election of
a nominal ruler.
(How much say did Little John really have in the Free Trade Agreement? USA
could
discard Australia as a trading partner quite easily with negligible impact
on their economy,
I think we'd be in trouble if the reverse happened.)


> > Garrie
Anonymous
February 2, 2005 11:20:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Garrie Irons" <girons@optusnet.deletethis.andthis.com.au> wrote in message
news:42009ba0$0$1019$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> "Byron Creek" <byroncreek@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:W%xLd.143152$K7.68344@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > "Garrie Irons" <girons@optusnet.deletethis.andthis.com.au> wrote in
> message
> > news:41fddfe1$0$14721$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > > "Byron Creek" <byroncreek@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:KRcLd.141803$K7.48811@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > > >
> > > > "Garrie Irons" <girons@optusnet.deletethis.andthis.com.au> wrote in
> > > message
> > > > news:41e78a7d$0$2625$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > > > I always thought all the colonies and towns were founded by the
> British.
> > > This might be the case but where do you think "Barossa Valley",
> > "Germonton"
> > > (later became "holbrook" due to a thing called a war), and other such
> > areas
> > > got names from? Look at place names in this country and they tell most
> of
> > > the story - "blacktown", western Sydney is simply "Black's Town"
smashed
> > > together (well documented, I'm not making it up, look at
> > > blacktown.nsw.gov.au under history - aboriginal)
> >
> > I know all about that........I work in the Blacktown area. What a
> > shithole!!!
> >
> Sorry to hear you don't like the place. I own a house there...

I don't like Liverpool either and I own a unit there........too many junkies
in both those suburbs, would be good if they just got lost! In Civ, they
would be the "unhappy" people that cause the preseident so much trouble!

>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Also the "barbarians" were tribal and had no nation to speak of.
> > > Careful, your aboriginal status is showing even more than mine is! ;) 
> >
> > I have no boong in me as far as I know. I'm actually a descendant of the
> > early settlers (pre 1820). Who knows, my ancestors may have been
shooting
> at
> > yours! And no, I won't say sorry!! ;-)
> >
> Yeah, I've got first fleeters in both redcoats and white shirts as well as
a
> large mix of other European nations. I never said I'm not white only that
> you're making it more obvious - at least you were staying respectable
about
> it in your previous post rather than this most recent one.

Not being disrespectful there, just my rather dark and extreme sense of
humour ;-)

> <<SNIP>>
> > > "Terra Nullis" was a legal means of sidestepping the number of troops
> > needed
> > > to subdue a "warring nation", and to allow the frequent "kulling" of
> > > aboriginal tribes (the last recorded, officially recognised "kull"
> taking
> > > place in 1956 or so near Peak Hill NSW). Even countries at war weren't
> > > supposed to round up non-combatants and execute them, even in the 18th
> > > century. But if you declare them part of the wildlife - by declaring
> > "Terra
> > > Nullis" - then hey they're just an animal.
> > >
> >
> > Exactly my point..........it allowed the British to take the land as
they
> > wished!
> >
> Not many ppl argue why it was done, just if it was reasonable given
> international law at the time.
> The biggest difference between the state of (indigenous) culture in
> Australia and New Zeland at the time, was the ability of the locals to
wage
> a war.
>
> > > If done this (or last) century the British would be charged with
> genocide.
> > >
> >
> > Would have been worse if the French or Dutch got to Australia first!!
> >
> Hey - I don't think there'd be any land rights, there wouldn't be a
> recognisable group to ask for them. But hey, compare that to Tasmania, the
> Riverina - and no doubt other areas of Australia which in truth have been
> repopulated by tribes endemic to other parts of the country.
> > >
> <<SNIP>>
> > >
> > > But I would like to see a good attempt do disuade me from my opinion
> that
> > we
> > > have culture flipped?
> >
> > Well, we haven't culture flipped otherwise Australia would be the 52nd
> state
> > of the USA. True, we have followed them into many wars over the decades
> but
> > so have many other countries. Also true is that our "culture" follows
the
> US
> > more than British but most countries in the world have been Americanised
> to
> > a great extent.
> > Big Mac anyone? Washed down with a Coke while taking a trip into
Marlboro
> > country.
> > Most citizens of the world are aware of these brands, probably the three
> > most reconizable brands on earth and available almost everywhere!!
> >
> I don't think many RL situations are as cut and dried as they are in a
> rule-driven strategic game.
> But I agree you've gotten the big 3 pretty much there.
>
> I think in terms of "culture flipping" most RL sociologists would point to
> the death of local
> language / dialect as being more significant than the ability to have a
say
> in the election of
> a nominal ruler.
> (How much say did Little John really have in the Free Trade Agreement? USA
> could
> discard Australia as a trading partner quite easily with negligible impact
> on their economy,
> I think we'd be in trouble if the reverse happened.)
>

OTOH, the Yanks would possibly be in trouble without us. Pine Gap is an
essential part of their intelligence gathering system.
Also, whenever I drive past Richmond air base, there is ALWAYS at least one
or two US planes there, usually tankers or transport planes. Perhaps our
government should have used their reliance on us to leverage a better deal
on the FTA, although the US presidents attitude towards us might have gone
from gracious back to merely polite if we push too hard for better deals ;-)

I wonder what the Indonesian presidents attitude towards our leader is? For
a tribute of nearly two billion gold spread over five turns, I hope it's
gracious ;-)

It's a worry........ever since I started playing Civ, my mind often thinks
of things in the world in Civ terms!!!

>
> > > Garrie
>
>
Anonymous
February 3, 2005 3:43:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Byron Creek" <byroncreek@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:zy1Md.144973$K7.73670@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> It's a worry........ever since I started playing Civ, my mind often thinks
> of things in the world in Civ terms!!!
>

Yeah, I keep thinking of the growing population of latinos in the US.
Are they trying to slowing overtake our country and flip to Mexico or some
other Latin American country. Or are we trying to get enough commonality to
flip Mexico and/or other Latin American countries to us. Just twenty years
ago, Spanish was something I heard about in school. Now Spanish is something
I hear on a daily basis. There has got to be some kind of cultural flip
going on here.... Don't you think?
Anonymous
February 9, 2005 4:20:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

The current US congress would rebluff any rebels in adjoining Mexican
states & Canadian proviences wanting to join the US for the simple
reason of not wishing to give the opposition party two more senators
per state/province.

Puerto Rico is currently the only nearby territory that if they wanted
US statehood could get it, and everytime the issue came up there, it
didn't get pass the refremum on should a state constution be written.

A significant amount of Spainish words have entered the English
language in the past twenty years, but many of them are used in ways
that would be inproper in Spainish itself [or at the very least reverse
the emphasis from what is probably intended], and in some cases the
pronuction of the words have drifted more towards American english
pronuction. (The most obvious case of this in the St Louis area is a
radio commerical for a Mexican restraunt is actually pronoucing the
inital "h" in the name of the resturant instead of leaving it silent.)

>From this area, it looks to me like overall like the ones that even the
illegal aliens prefer our health care system to Mexicos and our economy
to Mexicos and wouldn't want the Mexican govt to follow them. New
illegal aliens compete most directly with the illegal aliens already
here. The state govts bigest expense in regard to this are to the
dependent kids who are US citizens by birth of the illegal aliens and
second to the extent the state govt is reimbursing hospitals for their
care to those who can't pay their bills followed by the costs of
keeping in prison the small percentage of illegal aliens that commit
other crimes. And there is also one border state that is lax about
ensuring the person applying for unemployment aid is even a US citizen
let alone eligible by recently working for an employer that paid into
the system and as a result pays more than it has to.
!