Other suggestion for Civ4

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Lots of people complained about new unit types losing to older ones.
Some answers said that it can be explained by saying that this outdates
units use some of the modern technology (ex. tank vs. rifleman - the
rifleman could use some grenades, bazookas etc, but not as much as infantry
would).
This could be a good explanation but for me its hard to cope with it because
when I see unit animations I sometimes just can't force myself to believe
that they could win/lose this battle.

So in civ4 this could be handled by changing the unit images, animations,
etc at some time after someone discovers new technology that would give new
or better units. The units maybe could have old attributes but the new look
would make a difference (for me at least).

So what do you people think about this? ;-)

Mantades

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Mantades"
<matito@abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijk.com>
wrote in message news:d0fuj0$5j9$1@atlantis.news.tpi.pl...
> Lots of people complained about new unit types losing to older ones.
> Some answers said that it can be explained by saying that this outdates
> units use some of the modern technology (ex. tank vs. rifleman - the
> rifleman could use some grenades, bazookas etc, but not as much as
infantry
> would).
> This could be a good explanation but for me its hard to cope with it
because
> when I see unit animations I sometimes just can't force myself to believe
> that they could win/lose this battle.
>
> So in civ4 this could be handled by changing the unit images, animations,
> etc at some time after someone discovers new technology that would give
new
> or better units. The units maybe could have old attributes but the new
look
> would make a difference (for me at least).
>
> So what do you people think about this? ;-)
>
> Mantades
>
>

Could be interesting....

A pikemen with a P-90 as a back up weapon.....

kinda like an infantry man with bayonet on his rifle....

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Mantades <matito@abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijk.com> wrote:
>Lots of people complained about new unit types losing to older ones.
>Some answers said that it can be explained by saying that this outdates
>units use some of the modern technology (ex. tank vs. rifleman - the
>rifleman could use some grenades, bazookas etc, but not as much as infantry
>would).
>This could be a good explanation but for me its hard to cope with it because
>when I see unit animations I sometimes just can't force myself to believe
>that they could win/lose this battle.

>So in civ4 this could be handled by changing the unit images, animations,
>etc at some time after someone discovers new technology that would give new
>or better units. The units maybe could have old attributes but the new look
>would make a difference (for me at least).

>So what do you people think about this? ;-)

I think that you are thinking about open-field battles where
armies line up and then go at it.

In such battles the tanks take out the spearmen every time.

However, think about it another way. In times modern enough
to have tanks, the spearmen have learned how to make Molitov
Cocktails, dig thinly covered pits in the roadways, etc.

So defensively they can win a battle or two. And on attack
just think that infiltrators got into the camp when nobody
was expecting them and used their knives to good effect.

In other words the modern unit, even today, does not always
beat the older one (spearmen was an extreme example), but that's
the way to bet.

----- Paul J. Gans

PS: It happens in history too. In 1304 a large bunch of
Flemish townsmen (basically spearmen) lined up against the
flower of French chivalry.

At the end of the day the Flemings were victorious and over
a thousand French knights had died.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

In alt.games.civ3 on Sun, 6 Mar 2005, Mantades wrote :
>Lots of people complained about new unit types losing to older ones.
>Some answers said that it can be explained by saying that this outdates
>units use some of the modern technology (ex. tank vs. rifleman - the
>rifleman could use some grenades, bazookas etc, but not as much as infantry
>would).

If it's like the British army, the new technology either won't work, or
be in very limited supply...
--
Paul 'US Sitcom Fan' Hyett

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

U¿ytkownik "Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
news:d0g8i9$20r$3@reader1.panix.com...

> I think that you are thinking about open-field battles where
> armies line up and then go at it.
>
> In such battles the tanks take out the spearmen every time.

Might be, unless the spearman took some weapons by trade from other
countries (still not as good as modern infantry but much better then the
ancient spearman)
Other example could be cavalry facing tanks which happened quite often in
1939 (the cavalry won few battles)

> However, think about it another way. In times modern enough
> to have tanks, the spearmen have learned how to make Molitov
> Cocktails, dig thinly covered pits in the roadways, etc.
>
> So defensively they can win a battle or two. And on attack
> just think that infiltrators got into the camp when nobody
> was expecting them and used their knives to good effect.
>
> In other words the modern unit, even today, does not always
> beat the older one (spearmen was an extreme example), but that's
> the way to bet.

Yes and my idea was to show the player that his old units are really
different from the time they were first invented. (that would exclude
probably isolated countries and units because they wouldn't have anybody to
trade/steal new weapons or tec.)

> ----- Paul J. Gans
>
> PS: It happens in history too. In 1304 a large bunch of
> Flemish townsmen (basically spearmen) lined up against the
> flower of French chivalry.
>
> At the end of the day the Flemings were victorious and over
> a thousand French knights had died.

 

[Buck]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:51:21 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com>
wrote:


>In such battles the tanks take out the spearmen every time.
>
>However, think about it another way. In times modern enough
>to have tanks, the spearmen have learned how to make Molitov
>Cocktails, dig thinly covered pits in the roadways, etc.
>


Who trains and arms men with spears when they are battling tanks?

guerrillas are trained to use un-common weapons and there are
guerrillas in the game.


Buck
--
For what it's worth.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 23:00:28 +0100, "Mantades"
<matito@abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijk.com>
wrote:

>Lots of people complained about new unit types losing to older ones.
>Some answers said that it can be explained by saying that this outdates
>units use some of the modern technology (ex. tank vs. rifleman - the
>rifleman could use some grenades, bazookas etc, but not as much as infantry
>would).
>This could be a good explanation but for me its hard to cope with it because
>when I see unit animations I sometimes just can't force myself to believe
>that they could win/lose this battle.
>
>So in civ4 this could be handled by changing the unit images, animations,
>etc at some time after someone discovers new technology that would give new
>or better units. The units maybe could have old attributes but the new look
>would make a difference (for me at least).
>
>So what do you people think about this? ;-)

New animations could work, except that in practice, the problem
isn't that outdated units fight and beat modern ones. It is that the
outdated units are present at all.

In order to get around it, the game's unit upgrade system would need
to be changed, to automatically improve units as new technology
becomes available in the world. This would require a very different
model for units, or at least their upgrades -- free, automatic field
upgrades would happen whenever the technology was available and/or war
against a superior technology enemy occurred. In practice, riflemen
just don't fight vs. tanks, and definitely, you don't have ancient
spearmen fighting even industrial age units. The lower tech units can
readily adopt some new technology.




--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

>
> Who trains and arms men with spears when they are battling tanks?
>

In world war 2, the british govt issued something very close to spears(pikes)
to civillians (ie. people not trained in firearms) for homeland defence in
case germany invaded.
I saw this on a documentary on History channel, and BBC refers to it breifly
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/dads_army_03.shtml

data64

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

In alt.games.civ3 on Tue, 8 Mar 2005, data64 wrote :
>
>>
>> Who trains and arms men with spears when they are battling tanks?
>>
>
>In world war 2, the british govt issued something very close to spears(pikes)
>to civillians (ie. people not trained in firearms) for homeland defence in
>case germany invaded.

>I saw this on a documentary on History channel, and BBC refers to it breifly
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/dads_army_03.shtml

"They don't like it up 'em!"
--
Paul 'US Sitcom Fan' Hyett

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 18:42:33 -0600, Jeffery S. Jones
<jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote:

> In order to get around it, the game's unit upgrade system would need
>to be changed, to automatically improve units as new technology
>becomes available in the world. This would require a very different
>model for units, or at least their upgrades -- free, automatic field
>upgrades would happen whenever the technology was available and/or war
>against a superior technology enemy occurred. In practice, riflemen
>just don't fight vs. tanks, and definitely, you don't have ancient
>spearmen fighting even industrial age units. The lower tech units can
>readily adopt some new technology.

I think Civ III took a big turn in the way upgrades are handled from
vanilla Civ to Conquests. When I first started playing Civ III I
recall fighting warriors with my tanks. I always new when I was
breaking down a city because the ancient units buried underneath would
start to appear. Now seems much less likely I will find the AI
running around with ancient units.

On the other hand I used to always upgrade my units. Yet with the
latest patch update I find the cost not really worth it. I usually
disband spearman but I often keep around pikemen until the end of the
game. Maybe these could evolve into cheaper reserve units.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Buck <iam@this.site> wrote:
>On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:51:21 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com>
>wrote:


>>In such battles the tanks take out the spearmen every time.
>>
>>However, think about it another way. In times modern enough
>>to have tanks, the spearmen have learned how to make Molitov
>>Cocktails, dig thinly covered pits in the roadways, etc.
>>


>Who trains and arms men with spears when they are battling tanks?

>guerrillas are trained to use un-common weapons and there are
>guerrillas in the game.

Depends on the nation you are fighting. But we are talking
about a game here. And the fact is that there still may be
spearmen around when some nation has tanks.

After all, when I'm the guy with the spearmen, it isn't because
I *chose* not to have tanks.... ;-)

---- Paul J. Gans

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Why do technologically superior units lose to rifle man? If you have a tank
then YOU are modern not the AI. It makes no sense and molotv cocktails
cannot penetrate heavy armour.
"Buck" <iam@this.site> wrote in message
news:4p9s211803fp6o0i6vghlfe07nq5rqvsn5@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:51:21 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>In such battles the tanks take out the spearmen every time.
>>
>>However, think about it another way. In times modern enough
>>to have tanks, the spearmen have learned how to make Molitov
>>Cocktails, dig thinly covered pits in the roadways, etc.
>>
>
>
> Who trains and arms men with spears when they are battling tanks?
>
> guerrillas are trained to use un-common weapons and there are
> guerrillas in the game.
>
>
> Buck
> --
> For what it's worth.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

When Italy invaded Abbyssinia in 1932 they faught tanks and aeroplanes vs.
spearmen.
fatal__rage

"Paul J Gans" <gans@panix.com> wrote in message
news:d0ple7$9ca$3@reader1.panix.com...
> Buck <iam@this.site> wrote:
>>On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 00:51:21 +0000 (UTC), Paul J Gans <gans@panix.com>
>>wrote:
>
>
>>>In such battles the tanks take out the spearmen every time.
>>>
>>>However, think about it another way. In times modern enough
>>>to have tanks, the spearmen have learned how to make Molitov
>>>Cocktails, dig thinly covered pits in the roadways, etc.
>>>
>
>
>>Who trains and arms men with spears when they are battling tanks?
>
>>guerrillas are trained to use un-common weapons and there are
>>guerrillas in the game.
>
> Depends on the nation you are fighting. But we are talking
> about a game here. And the fact is that there still may be
> spearmen around when some nation has tanks.
>
> After all, when I'm the guy with the spearmen, it isn't because
> I *chose* not to have tanks.... ;-)
>
> ---- Paul J. Gans

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

U¿ytkownik "Shahid Lakha" <sllg06370_2@blueyonder.co.uk> napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci news:uHDYd.50088$y25.23519@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Why do technologically superior units lose to rifle man? If you have a
tank
> then YOU are modern not the AI. It makes no sense and molotv cocktails
> cannot penetrate heavy armour.

Right, but it would increase temperature inside so the crew has to get out
of it which may be deadly for them. Maybe even a bowman could kill some or
all of them (they could get out one at a time).

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Shahid Lakha" <sllg06370_2@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in
news:uHDYd.50088$y25.23519@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk:

> Why do technologically superior units lose to rifle man? If you have a
> tank then YOU are modern not the AI. It makes no sense and molotv
> cocktails cannot penetrate heavy armour.

You do not have to penetrate armour to disable a tank. Breaking a track will
render it immobile and it will eventually run out of ammo, not to mention
food and water for the tank crew. You would be surprised how much damage a
carefully placed stone or wedging a branch in the tracks can do. Another way
is to throw mud of something to block the viewports so the tank crew cannot
see where to shoot. Also, putting sand, etc in the engine air intake valves
can do a lot of damage, especially for the early versions of the tank.

As the germans found out in World War 2, tanks by themselves are vulnerable
to attacks by solders on foot, and hence need supporting infantry.

data64

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Yes, but im sure tanks have AC or coolant systems. Also, being able to
travel at a good 45mph(at the very least) means they should be able to out
run the spearmen or even bowmen.
"Mantades"
<matito@abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijk.com>
wrote in message news:d0vspu$s16$1@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...
> U¿ytkownik "Shahid Lakha" <sllg06370_2@blueyonder.co.uk> napisa³ w
> wiadomo¶ci news:uHDYd.50088$y25.23519@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> Why do technologically superior units lose to rifle man? If you have a
> tank
>> then YOU are modern not the AI. It makes no sense and molotv cocktails
>> cannot penetrate heavy armour.
>
> Right, but it would increase temperature inside so the crew has to get out
> of it which may be deadly for them. Maybe even a bowman could kill some or
> all of them (they could get out one at a time).
>
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

U¿ytkownik "Shahid Lakha" <sllg06370_2@blueyonder.co.uk> napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci newsoXYd.56429$y25.11609@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Yes, but im sure tanks have AC or coolant systems. Also, being able to
> travel at a good 45mph(at the very least) means they should be able to out
> run the spearmen or even bowmen.

I'm not saying that spearman or bowman or anybody is an even opponent but
they have some chance to at least immobilize a tank or even kill his crew.
What gives speed to a tank when he sometimes just has to stop (which gives
opportunity for infantry)?