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i845 the nest BX? FAR FROM IT!

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a b } Memory
January 30, 2002 10:40:35 PM

It's really an ironic comparison, given that the BX has the BEST memory performance of any PII/PIII chipset, while the Brookdale has the WORST!
Maybe if the came out with a DDR400/DDR533 (PC3200/4200) chipset, but that would require memory manufacturers and JEDEC to rush the standard to the market!

Makes you wounder why Intel didn't push for QDR, which they were hinting at over a year ago. But there's still DUAL CHANNEL DDR that they aparently have NOT EVEN CONSIDERED!

If Intel went DUAL CHANNEL PC1600 (PC2100 also at PC1600 speed) for the current P4, and DUAL CHANNEL PC2100 for the upcomming "533" bus version, they would be FINALLY making at least a SMALL STEP towards satisfying performance enthusiast by MATCHING memory bandwidth with FSB bandwidth.

What are the technical implications? Well, it would require two DIMMS. This would normally make OEM's a little unhappy, BUT, as seen with the nForce, it is possible to have a chipset support BOTH dual AND single modes, so that point is now mute!

And what's their excuse for NOT doing this, after doing dual channel with RDRAM? LAMERS, I tell you, LAMERS they are!

Now as for Tom...Give the customers what they want. We already KNOW that SDRAM is incredibly poor for the P4. So why waste OUR time and yours by putting such a useless article before us?

What's the frequency, Kenneth?

More about : i845 nest

January 30, 2002 11:07:48 PM

I agree with everything you say. It looks as though Intel is trying to scrape up as much of the market share that they can. It seems as though there are no dudes "gettin' a Dell" with Intel/RDRAM. There is no logical reason that this chipset exists other than to suck in ignorant newbies and there aren't that many left. The P4's current architecture doesn't seem to lend itself well to DDR either. At least there aren't any chipsets out there with a strong P4/DDR platform. I have a feeling that the P4 will soon be a distant memory and Intel will not make the same mistakes with the P5. I would hope that the P5 will be flexible and let the consumers' decide which RAM is the best not Rambus.

What?
January 31, 2002 6:28:58 AM

well, it would make more sense if you see intel's advantages behind introducing SDRAM chipset for P4,

1. It threw open the value market for then expensive P4 and as one would expect, they got a overwhelming response to it, crappy and sluggish but yet, the latest!!! Suddenly, P4s were everywhere!

2. It highlighted the performance of RDRAM based P4 systems that even boosted the RDRAM sales, as intel had to when they had agreed when they went to bed with Rambus.

Thye did make a win-win advantage both ways!

<font color=red>Nothing is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
a b V Motherboard
a b } Memory
January 31, 2002 6:43:01 AM

They are staking their reputation on a poor product, EVENTUALLY people will realize how slow their system is!

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
January 31, 2002 6:55:13 AM

D**N good point Girish! I didn't think of that!
January 31, 2002 7:59:45 AM

Well I have to agree the article was a bit silly.
Especially when they didn't have an Intel D845 motherboard to use as a base comparison.
It appeared they wanted to have base, non overclocked benchmarks in their review of 845 boards. Why not compare them to the chipmaker's board which can't be overclocked?

An interesting point of view can be taken when you visit the Intel web site motherboard section the 845 <A HREF="http://www.intel.com/products/desk_lap/motherbd/index.h..." target="_new">boards</A> are at the top of the selection list where as the high performance counterparts the D850's are at the bottom.
Is this a sign telling us the 850 chipset is on the way out?
I think so.
Will it be replaced by a chipset supporting 1066 RDRAM for Northwoods with a 533 FSB? I think so.
Will the D845 chipset have a revision to support DDR400 and DDR533? I think so.
Will there be a Pentium V? Not for a while. Maybe it will be a crossbreed 32/64bit cpu.

Do I understand what I am talking about? Vaguely.

<font color=red><i>Doctor Hooter</i></font color=red> <b>(·Y·)</b>
a b V Motherboard
a b } Memory
January 31, 2002 12:14:31 PM

Makes sense to me!

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
January 31, 2002 4:11:54 PM

Okay, everyone here feels pretty much the same about the i845 chipset, and that is fine. But let me ask your opinions about something, being the novice person that I am and not too familiar with all of the hardware issues that you are bringing up here.
I am considering a computer that has an i845 chipset (gasp!!). Yes, it is wrong, yes I am an idiot, so on and so forth. Better? Okay. Now, you all seem to be quite savvy as far as computers go, and you all probably have your systems cranked up so high that they would blow the doors off of anything. But if I purchase this computer, I will be upgrading from an Intel Cel 500MHz computer that has nothing in the way of power or performance. I have never been nor do I intend to be someone that uses their computer for very complicated or demanding things. I also have a quite limited budget, and wasn't even considering a new computer until just recently. My computer use is not very demanding. I play MP3s, surf the net, write up some word documents now and again, maybe play a little Quake 3 with all the settings turned down. Can you really tell me, based upon my current computer status and behavior, that this i845 thing is going to cause someone like me to be horribly disappointed and short-changed in the light of my current status? And if the answer is yes, then what would you all consider a good alternative that I can buy for less than $700?
a b V Motherboard
a b } Memory
January 31, 2002 4:24:52 PM

Buy a PIII-1000 system, it performs the same as a 1.7GHz SDRAM P4 but cost less. Usually the difference between an i845 and i850 system is around $100. If you go with a SLOWER P4 processor, say a 1.6GHz instead of a 1.7GHz, and RDRAM (i850 chipset), you'll STILL be FAR better off, and the money you save on the processor goes straight toward the better motherboard/memory!

Or better yet, get an AMD XP1800+ DDR system for even LESS money and BETTER performance!

Finally, if dude, you're getting a Dell, the cheapest P4 system (Dimension 4400, $799) already includes DDR SDRAM, which is much better than standard SDRAM, but not as good as RDRAM. The next better system (Dimension 8200, $1149) comes with a 1.8GHz base proecessor and RDRAM, and the added cost is mostly due to the faster processor, not the memory/chipset.

Finally, if you're really that poor, I suggest upgrading the system you already have!

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
January 31, 2002 5:37:08 PM

You didn't answer my question though. You all look at the i845 as a mistake, but you cannot see beyond yourselves. You would never purchase this computer because it would never stand up to what you think a P4 should be able to accomplish. Great!! But I have never had a P4 or even a P3. I have a crappy Celeron, and I don't want another Celeron. And there is no way you can tell me that a P4, even in a i845 system, is going to get beat by a Celeron, even a GHz Celeron.
The problem here is that I don't have the luxury of going out and purchasing a computer with RDRAM and all the trimmings. There is very little choice for me, being a student and not having a load of cash to blow on something. This is the case with a lot of other people out there as well. The i845 computers may not use the P4 to its greatest potential, but the balance here comes in the fact that people who buy the i845 systems will never know that. Because they don't work their systems like a race horse. And the only reason you all know that the i845 is slower than its P4 siblings is because you all did run it like a race horse.
People who buy these computers are not trying to take over the world with them. All they need is something that they can use that is going to last for a while. They don't replace or upgrade their computer every six months. And even though the i845 is not the increadible monster that other P4 systems may be, is it certainly better than the alternative, which is choking on old Celerons forever.
January 31, 2002 6:27:30 PM

yes, but you asked for a reasonable alternative for ~$700 and the forum gigalo responded with...

Or better yet, get an AMD XP1800+ DDR system for even LESS money and BETTER performance!


i tried Morpheus..... but i didnt inhale....
January 31, 2002 6:46:24 PM

Hmm, students usually need more power than any office/business system. I'm 15 and I still won't be satisfied with any system available. Why? As long as there is waiting involved, I won't be happy. I guess that's a pitfall in today's teens. We want speed and power and we don't like to wait for anything. Anyway, a teen with a limited amount of money and a need for stability and power would get an AMD Athlon XP based system with DDR, not an overpriced, slow P4 system.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
January 31, 2002 10:02:01 PM

oh yes...
i wish alot more was dual channel... real dual channel.

the nforce could have been a real killer if we could USE all that bandwith...
unlock our chip
halve the multiplier
use a fsb twice as high
but memory remaining the same... YUM
and for the P4 too... dualchannel PC2100 would spank rdrams ass bigtime, being equal in bandwidth to dualchannel 1066 not to mention PC2700!
RDRAM = 1.6mb/sec x 2 = 3.2mb/sec
RDRAM(533) = 2.1mb/sec x 2 = 4.2mb/sec
DC PC1600 = 3.2mb/sec
DC PC2100 = 4.2mb/sec
DC PC2700 = 5.4mb/sec

*sighs*
even dual channel on graphics cards looks like a good solution...at least on paper

The lack of thermal protection on Athlon's is cunning way to stop morons from using AMD. :) 
January 31, 2002 10:16:12 PM

Quote:

Slow dont forget that i am faster that you with P4.

At the higher end of the processor spectrum, Intel and AMD are neck and neck. At the lower, budget end of the spectrum, AMD is a winner. Hmm, who told you your P4 was faster than my Athlon? Hmm.... Are you hacking into my system and running benchmarks behind my back juin?

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
a b V Motherboard
a b } Memory
January 31, 2002 11:17:45 PM

Forget it! For less than what it cost to build even the cheapest P4, a company can build a faster Athlon system. And I think the Celeron 1.2GHz would at least beat the P4 1.3GHz. But you already have a system, upgrade it, almost anything you do for around $400 will make it faster than an SDR SDRAM P4 system.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
February 1, 2002 3:27:23 AM

I suggest upgrading your Celeron 500 system.
Intuition tells me you have a Dell cx500.
If that's so then you will have a nice oem Intel CA810E motherboard.
If I were you this is what I would do.
Update to the latest Dell Flash BIOS. (Intel BIOS with a Dell logo)
Replace the Celeron 500 with a PIII 1000 or a Coppermine Celeron 1100.
Replace ram with a single 256MB PC133 DIMM.
Note the CA810E mobo supports cpu's with a 66/100/133MHz FSB and has a ATA66 controller. On board graphics, no AGP, 4 PCI slots, may also have integrated audio.
Replace hard drive with an inexpensive 20GB UltraATA100 5400rpm model.
Install a PCI graphics card such as an ATi Xpert98. Crappy but better than on board.
Install WindowsXP Home Edition.
Consider upgrading sound if you're using integrated audio.
SoundBlaster Live 5.1 or Audigy oem.
Install a good NIC.

<font color=red><i>Doctor Hooter</i></font color=red> <b>(·Y·)</b>
February 1, 2002 5:40:18 AM

Quote:
And if the answer is yes, then what would you all consider a good alternative that I can buy for less than $700?


Well, I guess you would want to consider more than just <$700 and better than Celeron options.

<b>Take 1.</b> Performance: Everybody knows that a P4, even with 3.2 GB/sec RDRAM does not beat a P3 1 GHz! With the SDRAM, it will be just able to compete with still slower P3 like 800~866 MHz. For your day-to-day apps you dont need too high performance which the P4 (especially with SDRAM) doesnt give. ou would be much better off with a P3 or even a Celeron 800 MHz.

What I would like ask you is what criteria are you applying for your new system, performance or cost? In any case the P4 is out. You can get a P3 for less that would offer much better performance. Or you would be buying the P4 just for the namesake?

<b>Take 2.</b> Upgradeability: We already have had a socket change for the P4, I guess you would be buying a mPGA478 P4, which would allow you to plug in even the last P4, maybe around 3.5+ GHz, which any way wont offer you much performance since its tied to the slower SDRAM. Besides, it would have a 533 MHz FSB (133 MHz real) which your board wont support anyway. Intel has a 533 MHz FSB chipset due second quarter, alongwith 533 MHz FSB processor, and thats a lame thing to do. You need to give some allowance for upward compatibility, everybody upgrading their P4s will have to change their boards again!

And the P3 platform does have much better headroom for upgrade and performance. After a while you can lay your hands on the server P3s which come with 512k cache and a big potential to overclock, already running at 1.4 GHz if you need more performance.

P3 is not yet dead, faar from it!

<b>Take 3.</b> Cost: Anyway, P4 even with SDRAM costs almost as a P3 which would perform much better. In fact, an appropriate Celeron would be much better in performance/cost ratio. The fact is, newer Celeron do compete with the P4 with SDRAM!

Now the last one: I know you dont want a Celeron, but I would recommend you the Celeron 1.2 GHz that come with 256k L2 cache as in earlier P3s (but with just 100 MHz FSB) and a good overclocking friendly board (this time, no to Asus TUSL2-C, it isnt too OC-friendly without voltge adjusment options) and you can run this 1.2 GHz chip straight at 1.6 GHz with 133 MHz FSB without special efforts, and that would get you what would be like a P3 running at 1.6 GHz! And you still have real P3s right from 1.13A GHz to 1.4 GHz (till date) to opt for!

Anyway, I guess the Celeron 1.2 GHz would suffice you, which would be much cheaper and better than the P4 any GHz!

Give it a thought..

girish

<font color=red>Nothing is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
February 1, 2002 10:42:09 AM

Quote:

You have a 8500 oem right and a good old t-bird.AXP was not release when i have buy my P4.Is like the fight of the old core.

Actually, I have a retail Radeon 8500 and a 1.33GHz Athlon. Yes, you do beat me by about 1000 in 3DMark2001, but remember, I bought my CPU/Memory/Motherboard for 1/2 to 1/4 the price of your 1.7GHz P4. I don't have my Radeon 8500 overclocked either. I'm also using PC133 CL2 SDRAM on my good old 1.33GHz Athlon. Once I get an IWill XP333 and PC2700, I should be able to score much higher with the 333MHz bus.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor
a b V Motherboard
a b } Memory
February 1, 2002 10:05:41 PM

I don't see any real changes in the memory bus over their current chipsets!

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
a b V Motherboard
a b } Memory
February 2, 2002 1:07:30 AM

DDR II+ sounds like a nearly perfect solution, it would probably outperform RDRAM admirably, considering it has the same bandwidth (finally) and lower latency. But they could have achieved the same goal simply by making the i845 a dual channel memory chipset, and it would have supported current memory!

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
February 3, 2002 8:04:58 AM

exactly, DDR-II+ should be much better than RDRAM, cheaper (wishful thinking) and faster (certainly) with lower latencies.

Springdale for Prescott will be a cool system, might give AMD run for their money. But heard about the secret intel project incorporating x86-64 extensions for the Prescott processor?

This Prescott P4 may be a hybrid 32/64 bit processor that would expct to compete with the AMD hammers. This project called <i>Yamhill</i> is right now seen as a plan B for Intel. Since their IA64 Itaniums havent made any mark in teh market and the Hammers looking good to capture the 64 bit market, for the first time Intel is following AMDs designs and may have to license it from them! Of course, they will keep the option for disabling it should Itanium sales pick up by the time Prescott is released!

What a turnaround! Even Intel considering this is quite a victory for AMD!!

So what should we say, P4 the next <i>Small</i>hammer?

girish

<font color=red>Nothing is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
a b V Motherboard
a b } Memory
February 3, 2002 4:13:10 PM

Tackhammer?

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
February 5, 2002 4:47:02 PM

"They are staking their reputation on a poor product, EVENTUALLY people will realize how slow their system is!"

I don't know Crash, people can be awfully stupid. Look how crappy McDonalds's food is and they stay in business.

"There's no such thing as gravity, the Earth just sucks"
February 6, 2002 5:26:58 AM

I recently found this, <A HREF="http://www.emulators.com/pentium4.htm" target="_new">a bold article</A> on the flaws in P4!

<font color=red>Nothing is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
February 6, 2002 8:32:07 AM

People are stupid ecause they dont know anything. They just go by what the companies say, what the salesperson says and they have a common sense that says 4 is greater than 3, P4 is newer than P3 so it must be better. it must be the best!

this is the way the world is running! mcdonalds, intel, micro$oft!

<font color=red>Nothing is fool-proof. Fools are Ingenious!</font color=red>
February 6, 2002 12:13:13 PM

Nice article. Freakin' Intel.

But none of it matters, because Grandpa and Grandma will still be going to Best Buy and asking for an Intel based PC because they saw it advertised on TV.

Dude, you're getting a crappy POS Dell!

"There's no such thing as gravity, the Earth just sucks"
February 6, 2002 2:35:24 PM

I think they just mistyped the title of the article.

The i845D underperforms other DDR266 solutions by non-intel manufacturers. It just goes to show that Intel realy does need a kick in the pants.

Weather or not people like AMD, VIA, SIS, and other cipset and CPU manufacturers, one has to hope that they begin to gain a stable foothold in many markets to get Intel off their high horse and back into building platforms like the BX.

RAM Disk is not an instalation step.
a b V Motherboard
a b } Memory
February 6, 2002 3:11:22 PM

It's high time for business users to realize the increased productivity offered by...the computer they bought last year! And cancel their orders on new systems until Intel can produce something at least twice as fast as the PIII 1000's they bought last year.

What's the frequency, Kenneth?
!