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ups installation question

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September 14, 2005 2:41:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

I've read about some ups's having their outlets too close to each
other. With that in mind, if I use my current stuff which is all
plugged into a surge protector (in a strip) and leave that as is and
just unplug this surge protector from the wall and plug it into the
ups (so I will therefore use just one outlet on this ups) and assuming
I use an adequate powered ups, will this be okay? I may elect to not
do this for some peripherals anyway like my scanner and printer. Or
must I separate all the devices plugged into the surge protector and
plug them separately in the ups? I will probably use at least a
300watt ups which seems to be adequate based on the Tripp Lite and APC
web sites.

Also not all ups's mention AVR. Is AVR that important for Houston,
Texas electricity?

I gather APC and Tripp Lite (sp??) are the best brands to go with?
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 4:08:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
protector.

I have not read about "some ups's having their outlets too close to each
other" nor has that been my experience. Most UPSes include one or two
outlets for transformer blocks, so having enough space to plug things in
will not be a problem.

Any UPS designed for the SOHO market is also a surge protector. Some
recepticles provide battery backup and surge protection, while the rest
provide surge protection only. Do not plug a laser printer into a recepticle
with battery backup, since it draws too much energy. (Not sure if the same
applies to an inkjet.) Surge-protection-only recepticles are appropriate for
devices that don't require battery backup, like your speakers.

All this and much more is explained in detail on APC's web site (and other
manufacturer's too, I'm sure.)
--
Ted Zieglar
"You can do it if you try."

<Rob> wrote in message news:unggi198ar1bsfaa68oouh5du3qhbqjn2t@4ax.com...
> I've read about some ups's having their outlets too close to each
> other. With that in mind, if I use my current stuff which is all
> plugged into a surge protector (in a strip) and leave that as is and
> just unplug this surge protector from the wall and plug it into the
> ups (so I will therefore use just one outlet on this ups) and assuming
> I use an adequate powered ups, will this be okay? I may elect to not
> do this for some peripherals anyway like my scanner and printer. Or
> must I separate all the devices plugged into the surge protector and
> plug them separately in the ups? I will probably use at least a
> 300watt ups which seems to be adequate based on the Tripp Lite and APC
> web sites.
>
> Also not all ups's mention AVR. Is AVR that important for Houston,
> Texas electricity?
>
> I gather APC and Tripp Lite (sp??) are the best brands to go with?
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 4:08:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Ted Zieglar wrote:
>
> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
> protector.
>
> <snip>

I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.

My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
(1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.

Notan
Related resources
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 4:08:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:08:19 -0400, "Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com>
wrote:

>Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>protector.

Why is the surge protector a no-no?
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 4:38:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:

> Ted Zieglar wrote:
>>
>> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>> protector.
>>
>> <snip>
>
> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
>
> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
>
> Notan


Notan,

From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
insignificant in our context).


However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
strips".

- FM -
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 4:56:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Explained by APC here:
http://tinyurl.com/ctmng

--
Ted Zieglar
"You can do it if you try."

"Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com...
> Ted Zieglar wrote:
> >
> > Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
> > protector.
> >
> > <snip>
>
> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
>
> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
>
> Notan
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 5:42:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:HCYVe.43$nA1.2988077@news.sisna.com...
> Explained by APC here:
> http://tinyurl.com/ctmng
>

C'mon Ted APC is trying to sell PDU's... Have you priced one lately?

Look if you're running a bunch of servers in a rack or on a bench then I'd
say absolutely right... buy the proper PDUs and calculate you consumption
right so you don't over load the UPS. But for a home system? What's going
to be plugged in that you really need to worry about other then the PC and
maybe an external drive or two. Most SOHO UPS have at least two bat backup
plugs so put your PC into one of them and your monitor or external HD in the
other. If you need more plugs after that buy a good powerstrip and plug it
into the surge protected outlet. After all what does the average home owner
plug in after the PC and monitor? A cell phone charger, a cordless phone, a
desk lamp? Non of these need a steady or conditioned flow of electricity to
function.

The real story is, if you can avoid it then avoid it. Plug you PC and any
other vital device like a external HD directly into the UPCs protected
outlet. If you can't avoid it get yourself a good (not $6) powerstrip w/o
serge protection and plug it into the serge protected only outlets of your
UPS. I'll bet everything will work just fine.

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 5:53:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96D16C3606C87freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:
>
>> Ted Zieglar wrote:
>>>
>>> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>>> protector.
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>
>> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
>> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
>>
>> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
>> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
>> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
>> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
>>
>> Notan
>
>
> Notan,
>
> From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
> purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
> exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
> you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
> insignificant in our context).
>
>
> However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
> invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
> and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
> strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
> vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
> strips".

Televisions? Vacuums? Well now that just plain stupid!!!! and if someone
is willing to do such a stupid thing then they deserve what they get. These
are the same people who plug 100,000 xmas tree lights into one single outlet
and wonder why the house burned down.

But the idea of using a powerstrip (properly) being bad just doesn't fly.
More over not being skeptical about an article published by a company who
produces PDUs that suggest that only a PDU should be used is almost as
stupid. If I were APC I'd make the same claim... Hell I'd sell more PDUs to
people who just simply don't need them by scaring them with a bunch of
technical mumbo jumbo that simply doesn't apply to their situation.

Again note that we're talking home users and single PCs not a hand full of
mission critical servers.

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 5:53:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
>
> "Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96D16C3606C87freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> > Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:
> >
> >> Ted Zieglar wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
> >>> protector.
> >>>
> >>> <snip>
> >>
> >> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
> >> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
> >>
> >> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
> >> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
> >> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
> >> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
> >>
> >> Notan
> >
> >
> > Notan,
> >
> > From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
> > purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
> > exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
> > you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
> > insignificant in our context).
> >
> >
> > However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
> > invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
> > and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
> > strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
> > vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
> > strips".
>
> Televisions? Vacuums? Well now that just plain stupid!!!! and if someone
> is willing to do such a stupid thing then they deserve what they get. These
> are the same people who plug 100,000 xmas tree lights into one single outlet
> and wonder why the house burned down.
>
> But the idea of using a powerstrip (properly) being bad just doesn't fly.
> More over not being skeptical about an article published by a company who
> produces PDUs that suggest that only a PDU should be used is almost as
> stupid. If I were APC I'd make the same claim... Hell I'd sell more PDUs to
> people who just simply don't need them by scaring them with a bunch of
> technical mumbo jumbo that simply doesn't apply to their situation.
>
> Again note that we're talking home users and single PCs not a hand full of
> mission critical servers.

Just for shits and giggles, I gave APC Tech Support a call.

Along the same lines as using only their PDUs, the tech said that, while he
didn't recommend using a power strip, if I *had* to, it should be an APC. <g>

Uuuhh, yeah.

Notan
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 7:01:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
news:43286ECD.A9A4F374@ddress.com...
> "Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
>>
>> "Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:Xns96D16C3606C87freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
>> > Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:
>> >
>> >> Ted Zieglar wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>> >>> protector.
>> >>>
>> >>> <snip>
>> >>
>> >> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
>> >> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
>> >>
>> >> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
>> >> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
>> >> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
>> >> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
>> >>
>> >> Notan
>> >
>> >
>> > Notan,
>> >
>> > From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
>> > purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
>> > exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
>> > you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
>> > insignificant in our context).
>> >
>> >
>> > However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
>> > invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
>> > and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
>> > strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
>> > vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
>> > strips".
>>
>> Televisions? Vacuums? Well now that just plain stupid!!!! and if
>> someone
>> is willing to do such a stupid thing then they deserve what they get.
>> These
>> are the same people who plug 100,000 xmas tree lights into one single
>> outlet
>> and wonder why the house burned down.
>>
>> But the idea of using a powerstrip (properly) being bad just doesn't fly.
>> More over not being skeptical about an article published by a company who
>> produces PDUs that suggest that only a PDU should be used is almost as
>> stupid. If I were APC I'd make the same claim... Hell I'd sell more PDUs
>> to
>> people who just simply don't need them by scaring them with a bunch of
>> technical mumbo jumbo that simply doesn't apply to their situation.
>>
>> Again note that we're talking home users and single PCs not a hand full
>> of
>> mission critical servers.
>
> Just for shits and giggles, I gave APC Tech Support a call.
>
> Along the same lines as using only their PDUs, the tech said that, while
> he
> didn't recommend using a power strip, if I *had* to, it should be an APC.
> <g>
>
> Uuuhh, yeah.
>


LOL Well of course you should use a Genuine APC Power Strip/Serge
Protector... ;-) How silly you to think other wise.

That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my UPS's are APC and I
have all makes and models from big rack mount units to those SOHO bricks
that sit on the floor behind a desk.

I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible to promote their
products. Where I have a problem is when people don't use simple common
since in regards to the propaganda.

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 7:01:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
>
> "Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
> news:43286ECD.A9A4F374@ddress.com...
> > "Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
> >>
> >> "Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >> news:Xns96D16C3606C87freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> >> > Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:
> >> >
> >> >> Ted Zieglar wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
> >> >>> protector.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> <snip>
> >> >>
> >> >> I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
> >> >> my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
> >> >>
> >> >> My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
> >> >> the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
> >> >> devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
> >> >> (1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
> >> >>
> >> >> Notan
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Notan,
> >> >
> >> > From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
> >> > purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
> >> > exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
> >> > you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
> >> > insignificant in our context).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
> >> > invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
> >> > and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
> >> > strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
> >> > vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
> >> > strips".
> >>
> >> Televisions? Vacuums? Well now that just plain stupid!!!! and if
> >> someone
> >> is willing to do such a stupid thing then they deserve what they get.
> >> These
> >> are the same people who plug 100,000 xmas tree lights into one single
> >> outlet
> >> and wonder why the house burned down.
> >>
> >> But the idea of using a powerstrip (properly) being bad just doesn't fly.
> >> More over not being skeptical about an article published by a company who
> >> produces PDUs that suggest that only a PDU should be used is almost as
> >> stupid. If I were APC I'd make the same claim... Hell I'd sell more PDUs
> >> to
> >> people who just simply don't need them by scaring them with a bunch of
> >> technical mumbo jumbo that simply doesn't apply to their situation.
> >>
> >> Again note that we're talking home users and single PCs not a hand full
> >> of
> >> mission critical servers.
> >
> > Just for shits and giggles, I gave APC Tech Support a call.
> >
> > Along the same lines as using only their PDUs, the tech said that, while
> > he
> > didn't recommend using a power strip, if I *had* to, it should be an APC.
> > <g>
> >
> > Uuuhh, yeah.
> >
>
> LOL Well of course you should use a Genuine APC Power Strip/Serge
> Protector... ;-) How silly you to think other wise.
>
> That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my UPS's are APC and I
> have all makes and models from big rack mount units to those SOHO bricks
> that sit on the floor behind a desk.
>
> I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible to promote their
> products. Where I have a problem is when people don't use simple common
> since in regards to the propaganda.

I, too, have the utmost faith in APC products.

Except, of course, when they tell me things like "You must use
APC cleaning solution to clean the exterior surfaces!" <g>

Notan
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 7:01:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:cISdnZdUS7Qd7rXeRVn-3w@giganews.com:

>
> That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my UPS's are APC and
> I have all makes and models from big rack mount units to those SOHO
> bricks that sit on the floor behind a desk.
>
> I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible to promote
> their products. Where I have a problem is when people don't use simple
> common since in regards to the propaganda.
>


Personally, I used to prefer SOLA over APC, but SOLA seems to have vanished
from the marketplace, I haven't seen any in 4-5 years. Anybody know
whatever hapopened to them ? Are they still around under a different name ?
I run a SOLA Marathoner on my PowerEdge Servers.


I've also had good results with APCs larger units, especially the
rackmounts.

I've had mixed results with APC's smaller brick type units, the ones that
look like a large powerstrip with a gel cell built in. You have to stay on
top of keeping the batteries up to date, they tend to blow the circuit
boards if they try to recharge a bad battery. I don't know if there was a
particulary weak series among the bricks or if they were all like that.

- FM -
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 7:18:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Hey, my friend, I'm no electrical engineer. I follow what the manufacturer
tells me. And since SOHO UPS's are dirt cheap, I don't see a reason to split
hairs.

--
Ted Zieglar
"You can do it if you try."

"Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sOudndmK45iB_LXenZ2dnUVZ_s2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
> "Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com> wrote in message
> news:HCYVe.43$nA1.2988077@news.sisna.com...
> > Explained by APC here:
> > http://tinyurl.com/ctmng
> >
>
> C'mon Ted APC is trying to sell PDU's... Have you priced one lately?
>
> Look if you're running a bunch of servers in a rack or on a bench then I'd
> say absolutely right... buy the proper PDUs and calculate you consumption
> right so you don't over load the UPS. But for a home system? What's
going
> to be plugged in that you really need to worry about other then the PC and
> maybe an external drive or two. Most SOHO UPS have at least two bat
backup
> plugs so put your PC into one of them and your monitor or external HD in
the
> other. If you need more plugs after that buy a good powerstrip and plug
it
> into the surge protected outlet. After all what does the average home
owner
> plug in after the PC and monitor? A cell phone charger, a cordless phone,
a
> desk lamp? Non of these need a steady or conditioned flow of electricity
to
> function.
>
> The real story is, if you can avoid it then avoid it. Plug you PC and any
> other vital device like a external HD directly into the UPCs protected
> outlet. If you can't avoid it get yourself a good (not $6) powerstrip w/o
> serge protection and plug it into the serge protected only outlets of your
> UPS. I'll bet everything will work just fine.
>
> --
>
> Rob
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 7:45:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Robert R Kircher, Jr. wrote:

> "Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
> news:43286ECD.A9A4F374@ddress.com...
>
>>"Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
>>
>>>"Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>news:Xns96D16C3606C87freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
>>>
>>>>Notan <notan@ddress.com> wrote in news:43285311.EE9E44DE@ddress.com:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Ted Zieglar wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>>>>>>protector.
>>>>>>
>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>I've always kept a (non surge protected) power strip, plugged into
>>>>>my UPS, for little things like phone chargers, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>>My thinking is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that if I don't exceed
>>>>>the capacity of the UPS, no harm, no foul. Plugging (5) 1 amp
>>>>>devices into a power strip should be no different than plugging
>>>>>(1) 5 amp device into the same UPS outlet.
>>>>>
>>>>>Notan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Notan,
>>>>
>>>>From an Electrical Engineering standpoint, you are correct. For our
>>>>purpose, wattage is wattage, I don't care how you split it up. (Only
>>>>exception is when you get into the commercial and industrial arena when
>>>>you start worrying about power factors and reactances, but that's
>>>>insignificant in our context).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>However, from a Human-Engineering standpoint, I agree with Ted. People
>>>>invariably get happy with the number of receptacles on the powerstrip
>>>>and overload the UPS. You'd be amazed what I've seen plugged into power
>>>>strips attached to small SOHO UPSs - lamps, televisions, VCRs, even
>>>>vacuum cleaners. For this reason alone, I always tell people "No Power
>>>>strips".
>>>
>>>Televisions? Vacuums? Well now that just plain stupid!!!! and if
>>>someone
>>>is willing to do such a stupid thing then they deserve what they get.
>>>These
>>>are the same people who plug 100,000 xmas tree lights into one single
>>>outlet
>>>and wonder why the house burned down.
>>>
>>>But the idea of using a powerstrip (properly) being bad just doesn't fly.
>>>More over not being skeptical about an article published by a company who
>>>produces PDUs that suggest that only a PDU should be used is almost as
>>>stupid. If I were APC I'd make the same claim... Hell I'd sell more PDUs
>>>to
>>>people who just simply don't need them by scaring them with a bunch of
>>>technical mumbo jumbo that simply doesn't apply to their situation.
>>>
>>>Again note that we're talking home users and single PCs not a hand full
>>>of
>>>mission critical servers.
>>
>>Just for shits and giggles, I gave APC Tech Support a call.
>>
>>Along the same lines as using only their PDUs, the tech said that, while
>>he
>>didn't recommend using a power strip, if I *had* to, it should be an APC.
>><g>
>>
>>Uuuhh, yeah.
>
> LOL Well of course you should use a Genuine APC Power Strip/Serge
> Protector...

Great, no more gravy stains on my new suits!!

;) 
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 7:51:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Shel <scs@XXXieee.org> wrote in news:5irgi19h7jrmtq1qod2ocv89ncrelqc5s2@
4ax.com:

> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:08:19 -0400, "Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>>protector.
>
> Why is the surge protector a no-no?
>
>


Surge protectors generally have a combination of Toroids and Varistors
that could - theoretically - have a reactance which would change the
power factor (That is, the phase shift between the voltage and current
curves on the sine wave) in ways that MIGHT cause the UPS circuitry to
not operate correctly, either by not kicking in at all or kicking in
when it shouldn't. When small SOHO UPSs started appearing in the '80s,
there were stories of this causing premature failures and even fires in
an instance or two, but AFAIK totally unproven - I think they were just
grasping at straws and didn't have anything ELSE to blame the failures
on.

When I was with a previous employer, we deliberately popped some UPSs by
changing the power factor, not specifically to test the UPS but just to
analyze how our downstream equipment would handle it and as part of our
UL/ETL listing requirements. But we were at power factors and
reflectance waveforms that you would NEVER see in the real world.

For all practical purposes, this ISN'T going to happen in a SOHO
environment with one power strip plugged into a UPS. In a commercial
office building where I might have hundreds (or thousands) of surge
protectors connected to a central power source, I *might* start to think
about it.

- FM -
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:12:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:p H_Ve.69$O43.3839104@news.sisna.com...
> Hey, my friend, I'm no electrical engineer. I follow what the manufacturer
> tells me. And since SOHO UPS's are dirt cheap, I don't see a reason to
> split
> hairs.

It's not the SOHO UPS cost its the PDU cost.

You're right however, no need to split hairs. I just get a bit miffed when
people give out advice based on what the manufacture says especially when
that manufacture manufactures the device suggested by the manufacture. Say
that 3 time fast. ;-) Its in their best interest to imply that their
product is the only product that should be used.

As I said in my OP. If you can avoid it then by all means avoid it, but IMO
common since dictates that an non over loaded power strip plugged into a UPS
shouldn't harm the UPS or the equipment plugged in to it.

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:15:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96D18111AF2D1freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> "Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:cISdnZdUS7Qd7rXeRVn-3w@giganews.com:
>
>>
>> That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my UPS's are APC and
>> I have all makes and models from big rack mount units to those SOHO
>> bricks that sit on the floor behind a desk.
>>
>> I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible to promote
>> their products. Where I have a problem is when people don't use simple
>> common since in regards to the propaganda.
>>
>
>
> Personally, I used to prefer SOLA over APC, but SOLA seems to have
> vanished
> from the marketplace, I haven't seen any in 4-5 years. Anybody know
> whatever hapopened to them ? Are they still around under a different name
> ?


SOLA??? Don't they make Styrofoam cups and other paper products? ;-)

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:15:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KpadnY_FSJdBGbXeRVn-ow@giganews.com...
>
> "Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns96D18111AF2D1freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> > "Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in
> > news:cISdnZdUS7Qd7rXeRVn-3w@giganews.com:
> >
> >>
> >> That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my UPS's are APC and
> >> I have all makes and models from big rack mount units to those SOHO
> >> bricks that sit on the floor behind a desk.
> >>
> >> I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible to promote
> >> their products. Where I have a problem is when people don't use simple
> >> common since in regards to the propaganda.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Personally, I used to prefer SOLA over APC, but SOLA seems to have
> > vanished
> > from the marketplace, I haven't seen any in 4-5 years. Anybody know
> > whatever hapopened to them ? Are they still around under a different
name
> > ?
>
>
> SOLA??? Don't they make Styrofoam cups and other paper products? ;-)
>
> --
>
> Rob

But they do it solo :-)

So, now who's been spending to much time in the break room?

KC
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:30:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Appreciate the integrity - basic technical knowledge - of so
many replies. For example, to meet UL standards, a power
strip must be able to provide 15 amps to any one receptacle OR
provide the total of 15 amps to all the receptacles. If any
receptacle is 'starved' for current, then a fire hazard exists
inside the power strip - it does not get a UL rating. However
another provided this app note from APC:
http://tinyurl.com/ctmng
> Using surge strips with APC's Back-UPS and Smart-UPS products.
> Surge protectors filter the power for surges and offer EMI/RFI
> filtering but do not efficiently distribute the power, meaning
> that some equipment may be deprived of the necessary amperage it
> requires to run properly – causing your attached equipment
> (computer, monitor, etc) to shutdown or reboot.

Are we to believe the EMI/RFI filtering starves some
receptacle with insufficient current? Who writes this stuff?
Well APC is promoted to those who don't have even basic
electrical knowledge which is why some foolishly praise APC
products.

Now for the electrical reasons why a power strip should not
be used on UPS outputs. Those UPSes imply they provided
cleaner power. So lets now do the numbers - what those so
many other posters never provided. This 120V UPS in battery
backup mode outputs two 200 volts square waves with up to a
270 volt spike between those square waves. The UPS
manufacturer calls that a modified sine wave. That distortion
of English so that those who recommend UPSes will 'hope' the
UPS outputs cleaner power.

Meanwhile, in battery backup mode, either the power strip
protector is quickly degraded OR the UPS is damaged. And so
we have the technical reasons why a power strip protector must
not be used on UPS outputs. APC, et al will not admit this in
app noted for the naive because it would demonstrate how
'dirty' UPS power really is.

Also nonsense is the myth that UPS provides effective
transient protection. That UPS only claims protection from a
type of transient that does not typically damage electronics.
What do they forget to mention? That UPS does not even claim
to protect from transients that typically destroy
electronics. Furthermore, effective protection costs about $1
per protected appliance and comes with more responsible names
such as Square D, Leviton, Intermatic, Siemens, Cutler Hammer,
Polyphaser, and GE.

The best power strip is one that costs $3+ at Home Depot,
Lowes, or WalMart and that contains THE most critical
protection device on a power strip - 15 amp circuit breaker.
This breaker not for transistor protection. That 15 amp
breaker is essential to human protection.

Now about AVR - and again some numbers. What is the voltage
range of that AVR? Well, any properly constructed computer
works just fine from 130 VAC down to 90 VAC. That means you
incandescent lamps are at less than 40% intensity and still
the computer must work just fine at 100%. Is your voltage
dropping that low? If so, then your electric motors are at
much greater risk. IOW AVR is more necessary for motorized
appliances. But the UPS cannot power motors. What is the AVR
doing ... once we include the numbers? Nothing if your
incandescent lamps are staying more than 50% bright.

APC and Tripplite are recommended by those without basic
electrical knowledge. A severe symptom of so many previous
posts. They did not provide numbers. Notice that once
numbers are applies, the claims take on a different tone.
Explained is why a power strip is not good on UPS outputs,
that the APC app note assumes the reader has no electrical
knowledge, AND that AVR solves what the power supply has
already made irrelevant.

Rob wrote:
> I've read about some ups's having their outlets too close to each
> other. With that in mind, if I use my current stuff which is all
> plugged into a surge protector (in a strip) and leave that as is and
> just unplug this surge protector from the wall and plug it into the
> ups (so I will therefore use just one outlet on this ups) and assuming
> I use an adequate powered ups, will this be okay? I may elect to not
> do this for some peripherals anyway like my scanner and printer. Or
> must I separate all the devices plugged into the surge protector and
> plug them separately in the ups? I will probably use at least a
> 300watt ups which seems to be adequate based on the Tripp Lite and APC
> web sites.
>
> Also not all ups's mention AVR. Is AVR that important for Houston,
> Texas electricity?
>
> I gather APC and Tripp Lite (sp??) are the best brands to go with?
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:30:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

w_tom wrote:
>
> Appreciate the integrity - basic technical knowledge - of so
> many replies. For example, to meet UL standards, a power
> strip must be able to provide 15 amps to any one receptacle OR
> provide the total of 15 amps to all the receptacles. If any
> receptacle is 'starved' for current, then a fire hazard exists
> inside the power strip - it does not get a UL rating. However
> another provided this app note from APC:
> http://tinyurl.com/ctmng
>
> <snip>

OK, so what brand *does* perform as expected?

Notan
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 8:52:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Kevin Childers" <kchilder@mail.win.org> wrote in message
news:wO%Ve.2065$Q71.958@fe02.lga...
> "Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in
> message
> news:KpadnY_FSJdBGbXeRVn-ow@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:Xns96D18111AF2D1freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
>> > "Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote
>> > in
>> > news:cISdnZdUS7Qd7rXeRVn-3w@giganews.com:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my
>> >> UPS's are APC and
>> >> I have all makes and models from big rack mount units
>> >> to those SOHO
>> >> bricks that sit on the floor behind a desk.
>> >>
>> >> I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible
>> >> to promote
>> >> their products. Where I have a problem is when people
>> >> don't use simple
>> >> common since in regards to the propaganda.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Personally, I used to prefer SOLA over APC, but SOLA
>> > seems to have
>> > vanished
>> > from the marketplace, I haven't seen any in 4-5 years.
>> > Anybody know
>> > whatever hapopened to them ? Are they still around
>> > under a different
> name
>> > ?

SOLA seems to have morphed into SOLA/Hevi-Duty
http://www.solaheviduty.com/

it solo :-)
>
> So, now who's been spending to much time in the break
> room?
>
> KC
>
>
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:10:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4328885B.B922706D@hotmail.com...
> Appreciate the integrity - basic technical knowledge - of so
> many replies. For example, to meet UL standards, a power
> strip must be able to provide 15 amps to any one receptacle OR
> provide the total of 15 amps to all the receptacles. If any
> receptacle is 'starved' for current, then a fire hazard exists
> inside the power strip - it does not get a UL rating. However
> another provided this app note from APC:
> http://tinyurl.com/ctmng
>> Using surge strips with APC's Back-UPS and Smart-UPS products.
>> Surge protectors filter the power for surges and offer EMI/RFI
>> filtering but do not efficiently distribute the power, meaning
>> that some equipment may be deprived of the necessary amperage it
>> requires to run properly - causing your attached equipment
>> (computer, monitor, etc) to shutdown or reboot.
>
> Are we to believe the EMI/RFI filtering starves some
> receptacle with insufficient current? Who writes this stuff?
> Well APC is promoted to those who don't have even basic
> electrical knowledge which is why some foolishly praise APC
> products.
>
> Now for the electrical reasons why a power strip should not
> be used on UPS outputs. Those UPSes imply they provided
> cleaner power. So lets now do the numbers - what those so
> many other posters never provided. This 120V UPS in battery
> backup mode outputs two 200 volts square waves with up to a
> 270 volt spike between those square waves. The UPS
> manufacturer calls that a modified sine wave. That distortion
> of English so that those who recommend UPSes will 'hope' the
> UPS outputs cleaner power.
>
> Meanwhile, in battery backup mode, either the power strip
> protector is quickly degraded OR the UPS is damaged. And so
> we have the technical reasons why a power strip protector must
> not be used on UPS outputs. APC, et al will not admit this in
> app noted for the naive because it would demonstrate how
> 'dirty' UPS power really is.
>
> Also nonsense is the myth that UPS provides effective
> transient protection. That UPS only claims protection from a
> type of transient that does not typically damage electronics.
> What do they forget to mention? That UPS does not even claim
> to protect from transients that typically destroy
> electronics. Furthermore, effective protection costs about $1
> per protected appliance and comes with more responsible names
> such as Square D, Leviton, Intermatic, Siemens, Cutler Hammer,
> Polyphaser, and GE.
>
> The best power strip is one that costs $3+ at Home Depot,
> Lowes, or WalMart and that contains THE most critical
> protection device on a power strip - 15 amp circuit breaker.
> This breaker not for transistor protection. That 15 amp
> breaker is essential to human protection.
>
> Now about AVR - and again some numbers. What is the voltage
> range of that AVR? Well, any properly constructed computer
> works just fine from 130 VAC down to 90 VAC. That means you
> incandescent lamps are at less than 40% intensity and still
> the computer must work just fine at 100%. Is your voltage
> dropping that low? If so, then your electric motors are at
> much greater risk. IOW AVR is more necessary for motorized
> appliances. But the UPS cannot power motors. What is the AVR
> doing ... once we include the numbers? Nothing if your
> incandescent lamps are staying more than 50% bright.
>


Excellent explanation, Mr. Edison... I'll have to get my Electricians Guide
to the Universe to decipher some of it however. ;-)

Two things I do know however.

1) I would never and didn't suggest plugging a power strip into the battery
protected outlets of a UPS so I'm not too worried about an even 15 amps
being distributed to every plug in the strip when the UPS in on battery.

2) I'm not too sure what you are implying with the AVR description but until
I have time to consult the Electricians Guide to the Universe I'll assume
you are implying that the effectiveness of a UPS is 0 as long as my lamp is
still on at 50%. Frankly, if this is the case, I don't care because what I
really care about is when my lamp is on at 0%. *This* is were I want my UPS
to do something.

So if I'm missunderconfused please try plain English with out all the fancy
schmancy numbers. Small words would help since I can't seem to find my
copy of the EG to the U. ;-)

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:18:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96D18D09FCE63freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
> Shel <scs@XXXieee.org> wrote in news:5irgi19h7jrmtq1qod2ocv89ncrelqc5s2@
> 4ax.com:
>
>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:08:19 -0400, "Ted Zieglar" <teddyz@notmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Do NOT plug a power strip into a UPS, particularly one with a surge
>>>protector.
>>
>> Why is the surge protector a no-no?
>>
>>
>
>
> Surge protectors generally have a combination of Toroids and Varistors
> that could - theoretically - have a reactance which would change the
> power factor (That is, the phase shift between the voltage and current
> curves on the sine wave) in ways that MIGHT cause the UPS circuitry to
> not operate correctly, either by not kicking in at all or kicking in
> when it shouldn't. When small SOHO UPSs started appearing in the '80s,
> there were stories of this causing premature failures and even fires in
> an instance or two, but AFAIK totally unproven - I think they were just
> grasping at straws and didn't have anything ELSE to blame the failures
> on.
>
> When I was with a previous employer, we deliberately popped some UPSs by
> changing the power factor, not specifically to test the UPS but just to
> analyze how our downstream equipment would handle it and as part of our
> UL/ETL listing requirements. But we were at power factors and
> reflectance waveforms that you would NEVER see in the real world.
>
> For all practical purposes, this ISN'T going to happen in a SOHO
> environment with one power strip plugged into a UPS. In a commercial
> office building where I might have hundreds (or thousands) of surge
> protectors connected to a central power source, I *might* start to think
> about it.
>

In almost all commercial spaces that I've been in or installed systems the
local electrical inspectors will make you remove power strips from UPS's
most likely for the reason Tom (Edison) mentions in his post. I think,
however, you make the best point of the tread, when you say "for all
practical purposes, this isn't going to happen in a SOHO environment."
That's been my point all along.

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:24:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Notan wrote:
> OK, so what brand *does* perform as expected?
>
> Notan

First, define what you "expected"? What problems are to be
addressed by a UPS? Five basic electrical problems exist:
blackouts, brownouts, harmonics, noise, and surges. Which
problems are to be addressed - and what is to be protected?

For example, blackouts and brownouts do not harm properly
designed electronic hardware. This even demanded by industry
standards 30 years ago. But blackouts and extreme brownouts
can damage data. So we install a UPS to protect data (not
hardware) from blackouts and brownouts. A typical plug-in UPS
(even a cheapest type) may do just that. Meanwhile it does
not address harmonics, noise, and surge problems. Those are
addressed elsewhere by other equipment.

IOW before one can fix a problem, first, the problem must be
defined. "Expected" is a subjective term so often used by
junk scientists - who fear to discuss numbers. To answer the
question usefully, first, numbers are required for what is
acceptable and what is considered a problem. No numbers is
how ineffective solutions are so often promoted - at
excessively high cost. First, what is the problem to be
solved?
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:24:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

w_tom wrote:
>
> Notan wrote:
> > OK, so what brand *does* perform as expected?
> >
> > Notan
>
> First, define what you "expected"? What problems are to be
> addressed by a UPS? Five basic electrical problems exist:
> blackouts, brownouts, harmonics, noise, and surges. Which
> problems are to be addressed - and what is to be protected?
>
> For example, blackouts and brownouts do not harm properly
> designed electronic hardware. This even demanded by industry
> standards 30 years ago. But blackouts and extreme brownouts
> can damage data. So we install a UPS to protect data (not
> hardware) from blackouts and brownouts. A typical plug-in UPS
> (even a cheapest type) may do just that. Meanwhile it does
> not address harmonics, noise, and surge problems. Those are
> addressed elsewhere by other equipment.
>
> IOW before one can fix a problem, first, the problem must be
> defined. "Expected" is a subjective term so often used by
> junk scientists - who fear to discuss numbers. To answer the
> question usefully, first, numbers are required for what is
> acceptable and what is considered a problem. No numbers is
> how ineffective solutions are so often promoted - at
> excessively high cost. First, what is the problem to be
> solved?

Sorry to sound so vague, but living in the mountains of Colorado,
the answer to your question is "yes."

In other words, all the above.

Notan

While I've got you on the line, another question: If plugging
a power strip into a UPS is verboten, how does one protect
a number of wall-wart powered devices, without purchasing a
number of UPSs? (The reason I mention wall-warts is, as you
well know, the space they take up is usually more than one
outlet's worth.)
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:47:34 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43289508.3232528D@hotmail.com...
> Notan wrote:
>> OK, so what brand *does* perform as expected?
>>
>> Notan
>
> First, define what you "expected"? What problems are to be
> addressed by a UPS? Five basic electrical problems exist:
> blackouts, brownouts, harmonics, noise, and surges. Which
> problems are to be addressed - and what is to be protected?
>
> For example, blackouts and brownouts do not harm properly
> designed electronic hardware.

Tell that to the hard drive I lost a couple of months ago when I
accidentally hit the main breaker on my service panel.


> IOW before one can fix a problem, first, the problem must be
> defined. "Expected" is a subjective term so often used by
> junk scientists - who fear to discuss numbers. To answer the
> question usefully, first, numbers are required for what is
> acceptable and what is considered a problem. No numbers is
> how ineffective solutions are so often promoted - at
> excessively high cost. First, what is the problem to be
> solved?

Numbers, numbers, numbers... Some one else has already figured out the
numbers. What I'm interested in is Best Practices. It's all very simple.
Is the use of a UPS with in the best practices of most IT organizations?
YES. What are the advantages? 1, 2, 3. What are the disadvantages? 1, 2,
3. Ok good so now what UPS do I need. NOW we can talk numbers. Look over
the guidelines from the manufacture (a couple for comparison would be best)
and then pick the one that performs to your needs. Simple.

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:50:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
> ...
> 2) I'm not too sure what you are implying with the AVR description
> but until I have time to consult the Electricians Guide to the
> Universe I'll assume you are implying that the effectiveness of a
> UPS is 0 as long as my lamp is still on at 50%. Frankly, if this
> is the case, I don't care because what I really care about is when
> my lamp is on at 0%. *This* is were I want my UPS to do something.

Little of that post was difficult or complex. Numbers that
should have been well understood by anyone who replied to your
post. Even if you don't understand what those numbers mean;
first, knowledge of those numbers is required to answer your
question, and second, most of those who made recommendations
are just as confused by these 'so simple' numbers.

You need not know what those numbers mean - just as one
never understands numerical specs for electronic equipment.
But informed consumers know that junk scientist don't provide
numbers for good reason. Electronics provided without spec
numbers are often trying to hide weaknesses and missing
functions - to sell to those who only buy on price.

In the case of electronic spec numbers - only 1% really know
what those numbers mean. But it is that 1% that scam
electronic manufacturers fear. To sell overpriced junk to the
other 99%, the scam manufacturer must find customers who say,
"I don't want numbers because I don't understand them". No
spec numbers is a symptom of inferior products. Informed
consumers don't care whether they understand the numbers. But
if electronics (or recommendations here) don't come with
numbers in writing, then the recommendation has no
credibility; is strongly suspect.

BTW those numbers posted are so basic that I well understood
them even as a teenager. Numbers so simple that anyone making
a recommendation should have well understood those numbers.

You asked two questions. Both were clearly answered in that
other post. The same answers are repeated here. First
question was about plugging a power strip protector in the UPS
- a no-no because of 'dirty' UPS electricity in battery backup
mode. Second, AVR - do you need it - or should you be saving
money? If you did not care about lamps dimming to 50% or 40%,
then why even consider or ask about AVR? Again, this would
have been obvious with manufacturer spec numbers that define
AVR voltage limits. AVR obviously does nothing when lights dim
to 0%. AVR is often hyped to those who want to cure a problem
that does not exist.

Based upon your last post, then your only concern was
protection of data from blackouts and extreme brownouts. Seek
the cheapest UPS that can supply sufficient power. AVR was
completely irrelevant.

Furthermore, desire a UPS that has a battery with life
expectancy exceeding battery inside your car. But good luck.
Since so many plug-in UPSes don't provide that number, then
most plug-in UPSes get an unacceptable three years or less
from their batteries. Just another number the manufacturer
will not provide so that excessively short battery life
expectancy is considered acceptable.

Discard the power strip protector that can even contribute
to damage of an adjacent and powered off computer. Get the
previously recommended power strip that has one essential
component - 15 amp circuit breaker. Use that simple power
strip for power from the UPS because a surge protector power
strip can cause electrical problems - as defined previously by
the numbers for the benefit of many others.

Why do you know others are hyping myths? They don't provide
numbers. No numbers is necessary when promoting propaganda.
But it is up to you. Do you follow the naive in
recommendations based only on street rumors? Or do you follow
recommendations that also say 'why'? Only the 'whys' tell you
which posts actually know reality - as opposed to those
blindly follow propaganda.
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:55:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Will not happen in a SOHO environment? That is what these
many examples thought:
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.cob.org/fire/safety/surge.htm
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.rbs2.com/fire.htm

Protectors in the output of a UPS are directly connected to
AC mains (when UPS is not in battery backup mode) AND also
suffer transients from the UPS (when UPS is in battery backup
mode). You tell me. Do you want these things on a rug, or in
a pile of dust behind the desk - in a SOHO environment?

"Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
> In almost all commercial spaces that I've been in or installed
> systems the local electrical inspectors will make you remove power
> strips from UPS's most likely for the reason Tom (Edison) mentions
> in his post. I think, however, you make the best point of the
> tread, when you say "for all practical purposes, this isn't going
> to happen in a SOHO environment." That's been my point all along.
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 10:46:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:43289508.3232528D@hotmail.com...
>> For example, blackouts and brownouts do not harm properly
>> designed electronic hardware.
>
> Tell that to the hard drive I lost a couple of months ago when I
> accidentally hit the main breaker on my service panel.

You would be a good source of free disk drives. Can't tell
you how many disk drives damaged by power off end up working
just fine for me for years. In each case, damage to the drive
was to its software - not a hardware failure.

Brownouts and blackouts do not harm hardware. If they did,
then another blackout would also damage hardware - power off.
Does hardware shutdown differently during power off? No. But
then the 'why' requires things like how circuits are
interconnected, semiconductor manufacturer datasheets, and the
numbers from CBEMA. Provided is the theory AND personal
experience. Both are required for an honest answer. Power
off does not damage hardware no matter what one may feel.

Actually APC and Tripplite have figured out the numbers.
They know, for example, that a UPS does not provide effective
hardware protection. Obvious once one reviews their numbers.
So they use propaganda techniques to play games with your
mind. One classic game is word association - "surge protector
equals surge protection". Reality and the numbers say
otherwise.

Look over guidelines provided by the manufacturers. Then
notice 'half truth' statements. Tripplite and APC will claim
surge protection. What they forget to mention is protection
from surges that typically don't exist. This is made obvious
by their numbers. But those who don't demand the numbers
would then assume it provides protection from all types of
surges. And so myths created by propaganda - lying by telling
'half truths' - is promoted.

Apparently, you require data protection from blackouts and
brownouts. Most any UPS will do just fine. Those who hype
AVR, EMI/RFI filtering, etc provide you nothing. But a major
weakness with plug-in UPSes is battery life - a totally
unacceptable three years while always in an ideal
environment. Even my cars (harsh environments) routinely get
seven to almost ten years on their first battery. But plug-in
UPSes sell mostly on price because so many consumers don't
demand the numbers.
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 12:10:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4328A836.84A53CD2@hotmail.com...
> "Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
>> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:43289508.3232528D@hotmail.com...
>>> For example, blackouts and brownouts do not harm properly
>>> designed electronic hardware.
>>
>> Tell that to the hard drive I lost a couple of months ago when I
>> accidentally hit the main breaker on my service panel.
>
> You would be a good source of free disk drives. Can't tell
> you how many disk drives damaged by power off end up working
> just fine for me for years. In each case, damage to the drive
> was to its software - not a hardware failure.


LOL. Been doing this for year Tom... Trust me that drive was dead.
Toasted. Forget about it!!!

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 12:19:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in news:43289C61.19E68F16@hotmail.com:

> Will not happen in a SOHO environment? That is what these
> many examples thought:
> http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
> http://www.cob.org/fire/safety/surge.htm
> http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
> http://www.rbs2.com/fire.htm
>
> Protectors in the output of a UPS are directly connected to
> AC mains (when UPS is not in battery backup mode) AND also
> suffer transients from the UPS (when UPS is in battery backup
> mode). You tell me. Do you want these things on a rug, or in
> a pile of dust behind the desk - in a SOHO environment?

I agree that surge protector powerstrips can be dangerous. I dislike
them myself. But this has NOTHING to do with a UPS. None of the 4 sites
above even mention a UPS.

My original point was that, while I dislike powerstrips, there's nothing
inherently MORE dangerous in using one with a UPS, with RARE exception
of adding enough reactance to create a power factor problem, which is
what I said wouldn't happen in a SOHO environment.

Some people seem to think that if you have a short in a powerstrip,
it'll trip the mains breaker and then the UPS will kick in and keep
supplying battery power to the short. This isn't going to happen - All
UPSs, in order to get UL/CSA/ETL listing are required to have fuses or
circuit breakers that are equal or less than the rating of their line
cord - that is, if it has a NEMA-15P plug (two vertical pins), 15A or
less, or 20A or less for a NEMA-20P plug.

- FM -
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 12:24:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43289B0B.92D527F1@hotmail.com...
> "Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
>> ...
>> 2) I'm not too sure what you are implying with the AVR description
>> but until I have time to consult the Electricians Guide to the
>> Universe I'll assume you are implying that the effectiveness of a
>> UPS is 0 as long as my lamp is still on at 50%. Frankly, if this
>> is the case, I don't care because what I really care about is when
>> my lamp is on at 0%. *This* is were I want my UPS to do something.
>
> Little of that post was difficult or complex. Numbers that
> should have been well understood by anyone who replied to your
> post. Even if you don't understand what those numbers mean;
> first, knowledge of those numbers is required to answer your
> question, and second, most of those who made recommendations
> are just as confused by these 'so simple' numbers.
>
> You need not know what those numbers mean - just as one
> never understands numerical specs for electronic equipment.
> But informed consumers know that junk scientist don't provide
> numbers for good reason. Electronics provided without spec
> numbers are often trying to hide weaknesses and missing
> functions - to sell to those who only buy on price.
>
> In the case of electronic spec numbers - only 1% really know
> what those numbers mean. But it is that 1% that scam
> electronic manufacturers fear. To sell overpriced junk to the
> other 99%, the scam manufacturer must find customers who say,
> "I don't want numbers because I don't understand them". No
> spec numbers is a symptom of inferior products. Informed
> consumers don't care whether they understand the numbers. But
> if electronics (or recommendations here) don't come with
> numbers in writing, then the recommendation has no
> credibility; is strongly suspect.

First you tell me I need to look at the numbers, then you tell me I don't
actually have to understand the numbers, then you hit me with more numbers.
I got your tune, you're one of those types who think you know best for
everyone and to make it look that way you burry people in numbers and paper
and your authoritative and condescending statements. Well you may impress
the folks you work for or maybe your family but you sure ain't impressing
me.

> BTW those numbers posted are so basic that I well understood
> them even as a teenager. Numbers so simple that anyone making
> a recommendation should have well understood those numbers.
>
> You asked two questions. Both were clearly answered in that
> other post. The same answers are repeated here. First
> question was about plugging a power strip protector in the UPS
> - a no-no because of 'dirty' UPS electricity in battery backup
> mode. Second, AVR - do you need it - or should you be saving
> money? If you did not care about lamps dimming to 50% or 40%,
> then why even consider or ask about AVR? Again, this would
> have been obvious with manufacturer spec numbers that define
> AVR voltage limits. AVR obviously does nothing when lights dim
> to 0%. AVR is often hyped to those who want to cure a problem
> that does not exist.
>

Ahh Now I understand, not only are you full of S about UPS's you also cant
use a news reader.. There are TWO robs posting in this thread. I'd
appreciate it if you could get that straight.

> Based upon your last post, then your only concern was
> protection of data from blackouts and extreme brownouts. Seek
> the cheapest UPS that can supply sufficient power. AVR was
> completely irrelevant.
>


Look Tom, all sarcasm aside, you seem somewhat knowledgeable about the
subject but frankly nobody give a S about the numbers. All they care about
is the solution. If the OP (or I) needed to protect a mission critical
server farm then we'd have our calculators out doing all the math but for
goodness sake we're talking about a single PC home users. Get a grip would
ya?

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 4:07:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

In article <43289B0B.92D527F1@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
> Why do you know others are hyping myths? They don't provide
> numbers. No numbers is necessary when promoting propaganda.
> But it is up to you. Do you follow the naive in
> recommendations based only on street rumors?

So how come you suddenly stopped posting after several of us mentioned
using APC SU2200 units and having them protect our hardware against
surges/spikes when devices not connected to the UPS were damaged?

You said NO UPS CAN PROTECT YOU AGAINST SPIKES - which seems to be false
since our own experiences with Quality UPS units indicates they can and
do protect devices against Spikes in residential and commercial
applications.

I understand you think you have proof that the devices don't protect
against spikes, but in the real world, as seen with my own eyes, I feel
completely confident that you are completely wrong to say that they CAN
NOT PROTECT YOUR DEVICES.

--

spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 4:07:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Leythos wrote:
>
> In article <43289B0B.92D527F1@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
> > Why do you know others are hyping myths? They don't provide
> > numbers. No numbers is necessary when promoting propaganda.
> > But it is up to you. Do you follow the naive in
> > recommendations based only on street rumors?
>
> So how come you suddenly stopped posting after several of us mentioned
> using APC SU2200 units and having them protect our hardware against
> surges/spikes when devices not connected to the UPS were damaged?
>
> You said NO UPS CAN PROTECT YOU AGAINST SPIKES - which seems to be false
> since our own experiences with Quality UPS units indicates they can and
> do protect devices against Spikes in residential and commercial
> applications.
>
> I understand you think you have proof that the devices don't protect
> against spikes, but in the real world, as seen with my own eyes, I feel
> completely confident that you are completely wrong to say that they CAN
> NOT PROTECT YOUR DEVICES.

And, again, if *they* can't, what can?

Notan
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 4:07:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
news:4328BC75.C7756AF4@ddress.com...
> Leythos wrote:
>>
>> In article <43289B0B.92D527F1@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com says...
>> > Why do you know others are hyping myths? They don't provide
>> > numbers. No numbers is necessary when promoting propaganda.
>> > But it is up to you. Do you follow the naive in
>> > recommendations based only on street rumors?
>>
>> So how come you suddenly stopped posting after several of us mentioned
>> using APC SU2200 units and having them protect our hardware against
>> surges/spikes when devices not connected to the UPS were damaged?
>>
>> You said NO UPS CAN PROTECT YOU AGAINST SPIKES - which seems to be false
>> since our own experiences with Quality UPS units indicates they can and
>> do protect devices against Spikes in residential and commercial
>> applications.
>>
>> I understand you think you have proof that the devices don't protect
>> against spikes, but in the real world, as seen with my own eyes, I feel
>> completely confident that you are completely wrong to say that they CAN
>> NOT PROTECT YOUR DEVICES.
>
> And, again, if *they* can't, what can?


Leave the damn PC unplugged. That will protect it for sure. :-D

Or I guess you could put a big power conditioner and auxiliary generator in
your house. I'd say mount then right next to you desk. ;-)

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 3:38:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

The question is about plugging one of these power strip
*protectors* into a UPS. Don't do it for so many reasons
including this fire threat. Also that a power strip can
contribute to damage of the UPS because 120 volts from a UPS
can be more than just 120V RMS.

Fred Mau wrote:
> I agree that surge protector powerstrips can be dangerous. I dislike
> them myself. But this has NOTHING to do with a UPS. None of the 4 sites
> above even mention a UPS.
>
> My original point was that, while I dislike powerstrips, there's nothing
> inherently MORE dangerous in using one with a UPS, with RARE exception
> of adding enough reactance to create a power factor problem, which is
> what I said wouldn't happen in a SOHO environment.
>
> Some people seem to think that if you have a short in a powerstrip,
> it'll trip the mains breaker and then the UPS will kick in and keep
> supplying battery power to the short. This isn't going to happen - All
> UPSs, in order to get UL/CSA/ETL listing are required to have fuses or
> circuit breakers that are equal or less than the rating of their line
> cord - that is, if it has a NEMA-15P plug (two vertical pins), 15A or
> less, or 20A or less for a NEMA-20P plug.
>
> - FM -
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 11:52:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
> Hey dim wit you posted the same F'n article just from different
> website. ...

And that is as far as I need read. When one cannot deal
logically with facts, then one posts insults and profanity.

Accurately stated is that a $3+ power strip from Walmart,
Lowes, or Home Depot (with UL approval) is the best
alternative for that UPS output. A worst solution is a power
strip 'protector' that charges excessively more for $0.10
components, can be degraded if on the UPS output, can harm
that UPS, and even increases a probability of fire. Do not
put a power strip protector on a UPS output - for reasons not
provided by that APC application noted cited earlier.
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 12:01:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Among specs that must be on a power strip protector is
UL1449 2nd Edition. These numbers do not claim that a surge
protector protects transistors. UL does not care whether a
surge protector works. UL1449 says that protector does not
kill humans. Just another fact that ineffective plug-in
protectors hope you don't learn.

Ironically, the UL1449 test can witness a protector
completely fail - provide zero protection - and still obtain a
UL1449 2nd Edition rating. Why? UL has no mandate to test
for transistor protection. UL mandate is testing for human
protection. A failed and ineffective protector should not
threaten human life. To obtain that UL1449 2nd Edition
rating, protectors may disconnect those $0.10 parts even
faster - leaving the appliance still connected to fend for
itself. Fortunately electronic appliances already have
internal protection.

Meanwhile those plastic $3+ power strips - that have no
$0.10 protector components - are acceptable on a UPS output as
long as the necessary 15 amp circuit breaker is included.
What makes a power strip dangerous? What makes a power strip
unacceptable for UPS output? Those $0.10 parts that convert a
power strip into a power strip surge protector.

Industrial grade, hospital grade, etc have higher ratings
for things such as the number of disconnects and connects.
Hospitals and industrial locations connect and disconnect so
often making a residential power strip unacceptable. But a
power strip that is installed once and rarely is disconnected
need not be hospital grade, etc.

Fred Mau wrote:
> I agree entirely. And while I hate powerstrips as much as anybody,
> sometimes you just HAVE to use one. Here's what to look for in a good
> powerstrip:
>
> 1) A metal case, not plastic.
>
> 2) It uses "real" outlets, not just thin metal strips behind the plastic
> case. (The ones in a metal case generally use 'real' outlets).
>
> 3) Look for a UL/ETL/CSA listing on the body of the device, not merely
> on the power cord. The dirty little secret of the electrical industry is
> that a lot of manufacturs will use the UL listing on the power cord to
> imply that the entire device is listed when in fact only the power cord
> is. They get away with it because UL/ETL listing is not an actual legal
> requirement in most of the US.
>
> The best thing that a UL listing buys, aside from extensive testing, is
> the knowledge that any plastics or composites in a UL-listed device are
> such that will not create toxic smoke in a fire.
>
> 4) If you can afford 'Hospital Grade', go for it. What this buys is more
> and stiffer metal in the contacts of the receptacle, the plugs are less
> likely to fall out or come loose and start arcing. There are specific
> legal definitions and requirements for a device to be labelled 'hospital
> grade', you can trust it. But be prepared to pay 2x to 3x the price.
>
> Second best is 'specification grade' or 'industrial grade', but only
> from a reputable manufacturer because these terms are not as tightly
> regulated as hospital grade. Forget anything that merely says
> 'commercial grade', it's a legally meaningless term that's purely a
> marketing gimmick.
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 12:10:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:432A0E74.46BC1B5B@hotmail.com...
> 1B) Power strip protectors and UPSes adjacent to a computer
> do not claim to protect from transients that typically damage
> electronics. Grossly undersized a protector (ie too few
> joules) so that the naive will assume, "The surge protector
> sacrificed itself to save my computer." In reality, a
> computer's internal protection saved the computer. Meanwhile
> a transient too small to damage the computer catastrophically
> destroyed the grossly undersized protector. And so the human
> speculates, declares that speculation as proof, recommends
> that protector to his friends, and buys another. One way to
> increase profits on plug-in protectors ... grossly undersize
> it. The naive will then recommend it.
>
> Undersizing a protector is how a plug-in protectors may be
> hyped by the naive. Effective protectors are properly sized
> and located where destructive transients enter a building.
> Again, any protection that works on a power cord is already
> inside that electronics. Internal protection that assumes the
> building will earth major transients at the service entrance.
> Internal protection that makes plug-in protectors further
> unnecessary.
>
> A plug-in protector does not claim to protect from "sudden
> power variations". Its parameters suggest it is for a voltage
> transient that typically occurs about once every eight years.
> Appreciate the importance of a number called joules. Plug-in
> protectors typically have too few joules.
>
> 1B) is beyond the OP's original question. But appreciate
> what those plug-in protectors claim to protect from. They
> don't claim to protect from transients that typically damage
> electronics. If a protector is for electronics damage, then
> the protector has a less than 10 foot connection to earth
> ground. Just one more reason why a power strip protector is
> not effective AND is not desirable on a UPS output.
>
> 2C) UPS is only for data protection - not hardware
> protection. Power failures don't cause hardware damage -
> except in myths and speculation.

As far as I know, the germ of truth in this might come from systems run
on small local power grids where small outages are followed by a sudden
restart of equiptment that can create a surge.

> 6) Even plug-in UPSes use lead acid batteries - sealed lead
> acid battery. Battery life expectancy is also a function of
> other parameters such as number of power cycles, how a battery
> is recharged, and how charge is maintained. IOW UPS
> electronics design also affects battery life expectancy. Just
> another reason why telco switching facilities obtain almost 20
> years from their lead acid batteries.

Some use gel pack batteries, or other newer technologies, though mostly
for space savings.
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 12:31:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:432A0951.296D6A36@hotmail.com...
> "Robert R Kircher, Jr." wrote:
>> Hey dim wit you posted the same F'n article just from different
>> website. ...
>
> And that is as far as I need read. When one cannot deal
> logically with facts, then one posts insults and profanity.

Dude, you've posted the same example 3 times as if it were three different
examples and worse off the example has nothing to do with UPS's which is
what this is really all about. No one is arguing that a power strip can be
dangerous.

>
> Accurately stated is that a $3+ power strip from Walmart,
> Lowes, or Home Depot (with UL approval) is the best
> alternative for that UPS output. A worst solution is a power
> strip 'protector' that charges excessively more for $0.10
> components, can be degraded if on the UPS output, can harm
> that UPS, and even increases a probability of fire. Do not
> put a power strip protector on a UPS output - for reasons not
> provided by that APC application noted cited earlier.

Yet again you can not provide any proof that the use of a powerstrip on a
UPS is anymore dangerous then not used on a UPS. All you continue to post
is mumbo jumbo about .10 cent components. Again no one cares about $3
power strips and .10 cent components.

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 12:48:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:432A0B5A.C99D95AD@hotmail.com...

>
> Meanwhile those plastic $3+ power strips - that have no
> $0.10 protector components - are acceptable on a UPS output as
> long as the necessary 15 amp circuit breaker is included.

Oh now wait a minute... Now its ok to put a power strip on a UPS?

> What makes a power strip dangerous? What makes a power strip
> unacceptable for UPS output? Those $0.10 parts that convert a
> power strip into a power strip surge protector.

Mr Edison you apparently can't read. No one here said that a SURGE
protected powerstrip was ok to use with a UPS. As a mater of fact I made a
point of saying a NON surge protected power strip on the surge protected
pass trough outlets NOT on the battery protected outlets.

--

Rob
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 1:36:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

The restart of equipment after a blackout does not create a
voltage surge. It creates a heavy load on generator (current
surge) which means electronic appliances power up slowly. It
means electric consumers see voltage slowly rise. Electronics
prefer a slow power up which is why we install a current
inrush limiter inside electronics; so power-on is slower just
like power restoration from a blackout.

Meanwhile powerup from a blackout is harmful to devices that
don't like slow power up such as electric motors. Power up is
not harmful to electronics but can stress electric motors.

Many assume damage was created by a 'power on' surge rather
than first learn about a destructive transient that created
the blackout. A transient that would pass unimpeded through a
plug-in UPS. This problem is why 'whole house' protectors are
installed; a solution beyond the scope of this discussion.

Kevin Childers wrote:
> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:432A0E74.46BC1B5B@hotmail.com...
>> 2C) UPS is only for data protection - not hardware
>> protection. Power failures don't cause hardware damage -
>> except in myths and speculation.
>
> As far as I know, the germ of truth in this might come
> from systems run on small local power grids where small
> outages are followed by a sudden restart of equiptment that
> can create a surge.
> ...
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 2:48:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in news:432A0B5A.C99D95AD@hotmail.com:

> Industrial grade, hospital grade, etc have higher ratings
> for things such as the number of disconnects and connects.
> Hospitals and industrial locations connect and disconnect so
> often making a residential power strip unacceptable. But a
> power strip that is installed once and rarely is disconnected
> need not be hospital grade, etc.


Well, additionally, Hospital Grade receptacles and powerstrips are also
designed to hold the plugs tighter. You don't want a piece of equipment
accidentally coming unplugged at a critical moment.

The standard for HG listing of a receptacle or powerstrip is that, after 20
connects/disconnects, you can hold it with the receptacle facing downwards
and it will hold in a plug with a 1.5 lb weight attached.

Personally, I think this is a perfectly reasonable expectation for a
powerstrip, but there's very few non-HG or non-Industrial ones that can do
this.

see also: http://www.ersbiomedical.com/H2.pdf#search='hospital%20grade%
20receptacle%20test'

- FM -
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 5:40:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:432A21B4.8E312FCE@hotmail.com...
> The restart of equipment after a blackout does not create a
> voltage surge. It creates a heavy load on generator (current
> surge) which means electronic appliances power up slowly. It
> means electric consumers see voltage slowly rise. Electronics
> prefer a slow power up which is why we install a current
> inrush limiter inside electronics; so power-on is slower just
> like power restoration from a blackout.

I assume this is addressed to me. I was not clear in my statement,
please allow me to elaborate. I was refering not to the user end restart,
but with the power suppliers end. The standard operating proceedures for
most small generators that I am aware of (60 Kw and less) require that all
circuits be dropped at the generator and then the equiptment be restarted.
After a short warm up the engine has stablized, the generator is engaged and
then circuits are brought back online one at a time and with each the
generator load is managed and stablized. This is a best practices sequence.
If however this is not done, the restart can produce wide power fluctuations
and unless interveining measures have been taken can send spikes down the
line that are harmful to end user hardware.

> Meanwhile powerup from a blackout is harmful to devices that
> don't like slow power up such as electric motors. Power up is
> not harmful to electronics but can stress electric motors.

True, but then most such items are more robust and and as such suffer
little harm. Low voltage in electronic devices can create excess heat which
over a long persiod of time could cause damage.

> Many assume damage was created by a 'power on' surge rather
> than first learn about a destructive transient that created
> the blackout. A transient that would pass unimpeded through a
> plug-in UPS. This problem is why 'whole house' protectors are
> installed; a solution beyond the scope of this discussion.
>
> Kevin Childers wrote:
> > "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:432A0E74.46BC1B5B@hotmail.com...
> >> 2C) UPS is only for data protection - not hardware
> >> protection. Power failures don't cause hardware damage -
> >> except in myths and speculation.
> >
> > As far as I know, the germ of truth in this might come
> > from systems run on small local power grids where small
> > outages are followed by a sudden restart of equiptment that
> > can create a surge.
> > ...
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 1:37:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:53:48 -0400, "Robert R Kircher, Jr."
<rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Televisions? Vacuums? Well now that just plain stupid!!!! and if someone
>is willing to do such a stupid thing then they deserve what they get. These
>are the same people who plug 100,000 xmas tree lights into one single outlet
>and wonder why the house burned down.
I got a 80 mile, NO UPS power, service call to a super market.
It seems the night crew needed to plug in the floor buffer.
There was this outlet strip -----

This "cheapo" UPS used a fuse on the input, not a circuit breaker.

Get "outlet savers" (a 1 foot 3 prong extension cord) for your wall
warts.
Avoid "spare" (open) outlets. Of coarse, this will not stop the Bozo
from un-plugging a "criticle" load to plug in the undesireable idem.
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 1:39:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:15:24 -0400, "Robert R Kircher, Jr."
<rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Fred Mau" <fred-dot-mau@comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:Xns96D18111AF2D1freddotmaucomcastnet@216.196.97.131...
>> "Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrkircher@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:cISdnZdUS7Qd7rXeRVn-3w@giganews.com:
>>
>>>
>>> That said, APC does make fabulous equipment. ALL my UPS's are APC and
>>> I have all makes and models from big rack mount units to those SOHO
>>> bricks that sit on the floor behind a desk.
>>>
>>> I don't blame APC at all for doing everything possible to promote
>>> their products. Where I have a problem is when people don't use simple
>>> common since in regards to the propaganda.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Personally, I used to prefer SOLA over APC, but SOLA seems to have
>> vanished
>> from the marketplace, I haven't seen any in 4-5 years. Anybody know
>> whatever hapopened to them ? Are they still around under a different name
>> ?
>
>
>SOLA??? Don't they make Styrofoam cups and other paper products? ;-)
They were famed for their Ferro-resonent regulators. They will varry
some when used wit small generators with speed stability issues :o 
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 2:16:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Electric utilities are very careful, as you noted, to
reapply load to generators slowly - a section of the grid at a
time. This to eliminate massive current oscillations such as
sags and swells, resulting voltage variations, and even to
avoid timing changes of the 60 hertz waveform - so that all
generators remain in sync.

However, a previous experience was with something that
should never happen. Local transformer adjusts line voltage
as local loads change. However when power is being lost, this
transformer would have adjusted to maximum voltage. A lineman
must first slide that voltage adjustment down before power is
reapplied. Unfortunately, our's forgot to make that voltage
adjustment. On powerup, 120V came on at about 185 volts RMS.
Some electronics and lamps did not like excessive voltage due
to this human failure. Human failure was obvious since
numerous devices were damaged. Failure due to excessive
voltage would be widespread - not just one appliance.

Volt sags must not harm the electronics. Again, this is
required for decades by industry standards. Either the
appliance must work just fine or it shuts down. Overheating
due to low voltage was not acceptable even 30 years ago.
Furthermore, standard requires appliance to work uninterrupted
when 120 VAC mains are at 50 volts RMS for less than 20 msec
or at
85 volts RMS for less than 0.5 sec.

Low voltage may cause significant overheating in motors.
Voltage sag of greater than 8% is considered harmful to motors
- but just fine for electronics.

Previously defined were voltage output by what is often
called a computer grade UPS. Modified sine wave with spikes
as high as 270 volts is fine for computer power supplies -
because electronic supplies are so robust. But that same UPS
output can harm some small electric motors. IOW computer
power supplies are so robust that many plug-in UPSes are
called computer grade; only for computers and not intended for
less robust appliances with electric motors.

Kevin Childers wrote:
> I assume this is addressed to me. I was not clear in my statement,
> please allow me to elaborate. I was refering not to the user end restart,
> but with the power suppliers end. The standard operating proceedures for
> most small generators that I am aware of (60 Kw and less) require that all
> circuits be dropped at the generator and then the equiptment be restarted.
> After a short warm up the engine has stablized, the generator is engaged and
> then circuits are brought back online one at a time and with each the
> generator load is managed and stablized. This is a best practices sequence.
> If however this is not done, the restart can produce wide power fluctuations
> and unless interveining measures have been taken can send spikes down the
> line that are harmful to end user hardware.
>
>> Meanwhile powerup from a blackout is harmful to devices that
>> don't like slow power up such as electric motors. Power up is
>> not harmful to electronics but can stress electric motors.
>
> True, but then most such items are more robust and and as such suffer
> little harm. Low voltage in electronic devices can create excess
> heat which over a long persiod of time could cause damage.
!