So was Ultima 4 & 7 about Christianity, or Buddhism?

[WindSong]

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I was just wondering if any of you old timers thought of Ultima IV or 7 as
leaning towards one or the other? Yes, Ultima IV had mantras, which are part
and parcel of many sects of Hinduism, but Hinduism didn't have any
self-sacrificial values like sacrificing yourself so your comrade/brother
could live (anyone remember the tarot card from Ultima that depicts you
helping your brother across a wall when a tiger is about to strike?)..but the
Christian elements seemed so much more prevalent...compassion, humility, not
striking first in battle..etc. And then there is the Avatar/Messiah complex.

 

[Guest]

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Windsong wrote:
>I was just wondering if any of you old timers thought of Ultima IV or 7 as
>leaning towards one or the other? Yes, Ultima IV had mantras, which are part
>and parcel of many sects of Hinduism, but Hinduism didn't have any
>self-sacrificial values like sacrificing yourself so your comrade/brother
>could live (anyone remember the tarot card from Ultima that depicts you
>helping your brother across a wall when a tiger is about to strike?)..but the
>Christian elements seemed so much more prevalent...compassion, humility, not
>striking first in battle..etc. And then there is the Avatar/Messiah complex.

Well as Lord British made clear in various inteviews (and to a lesser
extent in a book or two in Ultima 9) that he was thinking in terms of
a value system without supernatural justification, somewhat stylized
for the game but in someway related to his idea of ethical hedonism.
So I don't think it is supposed to be about any particular religion
rather it uses religious allusions, imagery and themes to make a point
(in its own way).

Since a character with the name Buddha shows up in Ultima IV (along
with other luminaries Aristotle for example) there is at least some
inspiration coming from there. Also, he clearly uses some Christian
themes and ideas. Based on my limited knowledge I would have said that
compassion and humility were prominent aspects of Buddhism. Also, some
kind of charity/ compassion plays a role in Hinduism from my vague
understanding as being part of good karma. Whether LB was inspired by
anything from Hinduism is harder for me to say.
--
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-----------
Yours Truly Saint George's Dragon
Allan Olley -==UDIC==-
-----------
"For without friends no one would choose to live, though he had all
other goods." Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics.

 

[Guest]

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"Saint George's Dragon" <firstname_lastname@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:dba841hmjtp2r38ufi53sioffi0nm0cua3@4ax.com...
> Windsong wrote:
>>I was just wondering if any of you old timers thought of Ultima IV or 7 as
>>leaning towards one or the other? Yes, Ultima IV had mantras, which are
>>part
>>and parcel of many sects of Hinduism, but Hinduism didn't have any
>>self-sacrificial values like sacrificing yourself so your comrade/brother
>>could live (anyone remember the tarot card from Ultima that depicts you
>>helping your brother across a wall when a tiger is about to strike?)..but
>>the
>>Christian elements seemed so much more prevalent...compassion, humility,
>>not
>>striking first in battle..etc. And then there is the Avatar/Messiah
>>complex.
>
> Well as Lord British made clear in various inteviews (and to a lesser
> extent in a book or two in Ultima 9) that he was thinking in terms of
> a value system without supernatural justification, somewhat stylized
> for the game but in someway related to his idea of ethical hedonism.
> So I don't think it is supposed to be about any particular religion
> rather it uses religious allusions, imagery and themes to make a point
> (in its own way).
>
> Since a character with the name Buddha shows up in Ultima IV (along
> with other luminaries Aristotle for example) there is at least some
> inspiration coming from there. Also, he clearly uses some Christian
> themes and ideas. Based on my limited knowledge I would have said that
> compassion and humility were prominent aspects of Buddhism. Also, some
> kind of charity/ compassion plays a role in Hinduism from my vague
> understanding as being part of good karma. Whether LB was inspired by
> anything from Hinduism is harder for me to say.

Hmm. Wasn't Lord British a swinger or something similar that we're probably
misremembering the name of? Ethical hedonism... and that symbol of the
infinity sign with a line through it... *tries to recall* Argh.

--
The Triad
User of 'Thingamajig!'
Refractor Dragon -=(UDIC)=-

 

[Guest]

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Quoth Grant <user@example.org>:
....
> It's funny you say that because to me at least it seems as though the
> virtues are anything but christian. To me the virtues seem to
> encourage the individual to be their own keeper and to encourage self
> analysis.

I'd agree with that in general terms. While the nascant Avatar relied
on Hawkwind to assess his progress, it was much less of a
leader/follower relationship than in most Christian models. One could
view the personal path towards enlightenment in the same way as ascetic
monks or Celtic Christianity, but the Way of the Avatar isn't generally
Church-oriented.

That said, as Moscow pointed out, the imagery around the Way of the
Avatar could be compared to Christian iconography and symbolism.

> While, for example in U7, the fellowship had similarities with the
> christian church.

Here I can't, however -- the Fellowship was most akin to Scientology.
I can't recall for sure now, but believe Garriott might even have said
something to the effect.
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) Samurai Dragon -==UDIC Sig Code==-
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[Guest]

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> > The Christian allusions are very, very strong - just the cross replaced
by
> > ankh.
>
> It's funny you say that because to me at least it seems as though the
virtues
> are anything but christian. To me the virtues seem to encourage the
individual

I think that phylosophically you're correct, but, if we will speak about the
virtues "cult" attributes in Ultimas - then they are too similar to
Christian ones. Empath Abbey. Shrine in Britain in U9. Tapestry in U9. Ankh.
And so on.

--
Max

 

[Guest]

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Words to the wise, Paul G <No@spam.please> wrote:

>Here I can't, however -- the Fellowship was most akin to Scientology.
>I can't recall for sure now, but believe Garriott might even have said
>something to the effect.

The posting Moscow did on the fellowship some years back comes back to
my mind. Unfortunately I cannot remember neither year nor subject
title and it got lost when I moved to another hard disk.

I just think I remember it was a comparison between the Fellowship and
socialism ? Moscow?

 

[Guest]

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> I just think I remember it was a comparison between the Fellowship and
> socialism ? Moscow?

Yes I did such a posting in around 2000, when this newsgroup traffic was
MUCH larger.

And I was IIRC criticized by people who know the Ultimas better, that
Fellowship is more like Habbard's pseudo-psychological sect, then like
Soviet communism.

OK, there is also good old joke on "Britannia 1984 - Ministry of Truth,
Ministry of Love, Ministry of Courage"

Max

 

[Guest]

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Words to the wise, "Moscow Dragon" <maxim__s@mtu-net.ru> wrote:

>> I just think I remember it was a comparison between the Fellowship and
>> socialism ? Moscow?
>
>Yes I did such a posting in around 2000, when this newsgroup traffic was
>MUCH larger.

2000? Hmm, feels like much later ... I would have guessed around 2003
or 2002.

>And I was IIRC criticized by people who know the Ultimas better, that
>Fellowship is more like Habbard's pseudo-psychological sect, then like
>Soviet communism.

I cannot remember many of the comments, unfortunately. But being not
acquainted with Scientology, I can hardly say anything about that
here.

>OK, there is also good old joke on "Britannia 1984 - Ministry of Truth,
>Ministry of Love, Ministry of Courage"

Heh

 

[Guest]

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Samurai Dragon the Fortified Scaly Well-Wisher of Excellence wrote:
>Quoth Grant <user@example.org>:
<snicker snack>
>> While, for example in U7, the fellowship had similarities with the
>> christian church.
>Here I can't, however -- the Fellowship was most akin to Scientology.
>I can't recall for sure now, but believe Garriott might even have said
>something to the effect.

Richard Garriott apparently commented on the similiarity in an
interview in _Avatar Adventures_. At least according to this post by
Underworld back in 1997.

http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=5ng7lq%24kor%40news.scott.net

It came up a lot back in the day.
--
d e+ N- T- Om++ UK!1!2!3!4!56A78!9 u uC uF- uG+ uLB+ uA nC nR nH+ nP
nI+ nPT nS+ nT- y- a25, Captain in the Cinnaguard, Weirdo, Blue Bow
[B><B], Website: http://individual.utoronto.ca/fofound
-----------
Yours Truly Saint George's Dragon
Allan Olley -==UDIC==-
-----------
"Einstein, stop telling God what to do." Neils Bohr.

 

[Guest]

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On 2005-04-10, Paul G <No@spam.please> wrote:
>> While, for example in U7, the fellowship had similarities with the
>> christian church.
>
> Here I can't, however -- the Fellowship was most akin to Scientology.
> I can't recall for sure now, but believe Garriott might even have said
> something to the effect.

Well I admit it has been a long time since I refreshed my knowledge of
that sort of thing, but I do still see a number of similarities. You are
probably right that there are more similarities with Scientology, but
the voices, the sending of people away to "meditation retreat", the
giving of money, the not so subtle encouragement to not seek medical
help (or to disbelieve medical advice) all have close Christian
parallels. I guess I see more parallels with Christian
dogma/behaviour because I don't know any scientologists or know
(and forgotten) as much about it

Kadmos

 

[Samurai]

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Quoth Saint George's Dragon <firstname_lastname@yahoo.ca>:
....
> Richard Garriott apparently commented on the similiarity in an
> interview in _Avatar Adventures_. At least according to this
> post by Underworld back in 1997.
>
> http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=5ng7lq%24kor%40news.scott.net

Thanks for the backup.
--
___________________________________________________________
\^\^//
,^ ( ..) Samurai Dragon -==UDIC Sig Code==-
| \ \ -==(UDIC)==- d++e+N T--Om+U146MA7'! L8u uC++
\ `^--^ \\\\\\\/////// uF-uG++uLB+uA+nC++uR nH+nP+++
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ksj ^--^ ___________________________________________________________

 

[belowtheroot]

Firstly, I would like to apologize for being a necrothreader, but I have little choice.

Windsong . . . are you, by chance, Windsong Dragon of UDIC? Either way, please reply.

 

[BigMac]

Firstly, there is always a choice.

Secondly, chances of this person actually replying here are virtually nil. It's an external poster (meaning, the topic came from some Usenet newsgroup). Good luck searching.