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Right or wrong?

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Last response: in News & Leisure
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Right or wrong?

Total: 12 votes (1 blank vote)

  • Yes, exchange
  • 37 %
  • No, do not exchange
  • 55 %
  • I don't know, its a tough one.
  • 10 %
  • Don't care either way.
  • 0 %
October 17, 2011 11:51:33 AM

Release of 1000 Palestinian Prisoners for one Israeli soldier.

I s it right or wrong thing to do, to release .... I thing it is wrong thing to do, as hard as it must be for the family of the soldier. It will escalate the violence, as hamas will step the kidnapping of the soldiers and civilians for more exchanges for convicted criminals.

BTW, I am glad , that I don't have to make the tough decision. Very tough.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/10/16/plan-to-release...


------------------------
/No trolling please./

More about : wrong

October 18, 2011 8:11:45 AM

Very true. This will spawn more kidnappings. But it is not a case of right or wrong. It is a case of how much a particular society values its individual members.

Just remember this next time when the Palestinians whine about "disproportionate" casualties. They set the value.
October 18, 2011 8:18:51 AM

jsc said:
Very true. This will spawn more kidnappings. But it is not a case of right or wrong. It is a case of how much a particular society values its individual members.

Just remember this next time when the Palestinians whine about "disproportionate" casualties. They set the value.

Very true.
Related resources
October 18, 2011 11:26:48 AM

What would you do if you were a Palestinian?
October 18, 2011 11:27:45 AM

gropouce said:
What would you do if you were a Palestinian?

The same.
October 18, 2011 11:29:08 AM

gropouce said:
What would you do if you were a Palestinian?

What would you?
October 18, 2011 11:44:57 AM

Hard to say.

I think i'd wish UN enforces its resolutions. (194, 394, 513 etc...)
I would probably fight for my freedom.
October 18, 2011 12:08:02 PM

Whose freedom? I am talking about the exchange. And u?
October 18, 2011 12:21:34 PM

Sorry, i was talking about the palestian prisonners freedom. (im not so good in english...)
October 18, 2011 12:35:08 PM

They all were convicted criminals, murderers and terrorist, all 1027 of them. I thing that they got a deal, while the other side got short end of the stick. With more of the kidnappings coming. That's how I see it.
October 18, 2011 12:48:57 PM

They all were convicted criminals as French Résistants were convicted criminals by nazis.
For an objective assessment of the Palestinians, we can not trust the Israeli courts.

http://www.rue89.com/2008/12/22/un-franco-palestinien-e... (sorry, it's in french, but you should be ok with google translation)


I do not share the idea that this release will result in more kidnappings.
October 18, 2011 1:06:15 PM

gropouce said:


I do not share the idea that this release will result in more kidnappings.

I would bet u US$1000 that is exactly what will happened. I'll @mail u when it will.OK?
-----------------------

I knew where u were heading with your answers, and I was right. Its not important to elaborate on this any further. It would lead to nowhere. I am very much on the side of what I think is right and I am sure that u are thinking the same way.

/This is not the platform for it./
October 18, 2011 1:38:23 PM

With this kind of reaction to the real interesting questions, it is no wonder that peace was not found for sixty years.

I am not defending either of the parties, or if I do, it is to balance the debate a bit, because few people will. I have many grievances against the Israelis and Palestinians. We must blame the two nations.
October 18, 2011 1:46:19 PM

OK, so what good is done by the each side to get the disagreements go away in the peace for good?

Sorry, I am going to sleep now, but I'll be back : )
October 18, 2011 1:51:15 PM

Mercy is not the worst foreign policy choice.

I don't know enough about the situation to comment though. But both sides seemed very happy in today's news blips.
October 18, 2011 2:00:05 PM

Have you noticed there is never a call on Jordan or Syria to return the massive amount land they took from the Palestinians? Nope, it's only Israel that must GTFO. Funny huh?
October 18, 2011 4:00:35 PM

gropouce said:

I do not share the idea that this release will result in more kidnappings.



That doesn't make much logical sense...

They've already engaged in kidnappings in the past, and rather than having some deterrent to stop doing so, they now know if they continue to kidnap people they will get a great rate on their prisoner exchange. What reason again would they have for not just doing business as usual, while knowing that they can refresh combat trained "troops" that were lost? 1000 to 1 is a nifty deal for them, yeehaw.
October 18, 2011 4:54:49 PM

@nikorr: i'm sorry, i don't understand your question :??: 
@wanamingo: agreed
@oldman: i don't know. Maybe your right. Maybe we never hear those calls.
@knarl: the important word in my sentence was "more".
The fact that there are thousands of Palestinian prisoners does not seem to excite many people.
I would like to know if all of these prisoners are really jewishbloodthirsty terrorists who have for the sole purpose to blow themselves up in a bus in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem north.
If this is not the case, I understand that these mass arrests raise vocations.
October 18, 2011 5:17:42 PM

The vast majority of the "prisoners" being held in Israeli jails are enemy combatants. They were caught carrying out terrorist attacks against Iraeli soldiers or civilians. These aren't poor, innocent people who were just minding their own business, eating their hummus away, when suddently Israeli soliders burst through the door and arrested them for no reason.

@gropouce, you asked earlier what I would do if I were Palestinian?

I would stop listening to the imams, mullahs, and other religious zealot leaders for the first thing. I would stop killing Jews and instead try to work with them to rebuild my community. Anyone advocating the killing of the Jews should be shouted down and shunned. Then I would grow old and watch my children have children of their own and watch them grow up. Then I would die in peace, knowing my children and grandchildren will be able to live their lives out in peace.

That would be a good start.
October 18, 2011 5:42:52 PM

Yes, that would be a good utopian start... full of clichés, but good.

Concerning the prisoners: you have not convinced me.
October 18, 2011 7:54:07 PM

The 1000+ prisoners were convicted by independent courts of crimes and sentenced to a punishment in congruence with the law. The single Israeli was kidnapped (or taken prisoner of war if you prefer) and held without trial or conviction.

When legitimate governments negotiate with criminals (in this case kidnappers and extortionists) the end result is a loss of legitimacy for the government and an increase in power/influence for the criminals.



October 18, 2011 8:53:39 PM

Alain Gresh - Le Monde Diplomatique (i try to translate.........)

Quote:
Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit will be released after a long captivity. One can only rejoice for him, his family, his loved ones. And forget for a moment, he is a member of an occupying army. And no one seems to question the issue of dual nationality the soldiers, European and Israeli, operating in the occupied territories violate international law as well. When will EU decide that such acts are punishable by the courts?

According to an AFP report, Nicolas Sarkozy "warmly welcomes the announcement of an agreement that should lead to the release of Gilad Shalit," and praised Netanyahu for "major success". We are sure that Bernard Henri-Lévi will do the same.

In return, if you will, 1027 Palestinians, including 27 women, will be released. Who are they? How does their family? You do not know nothing or very little, reading the Western press. Magma is a faceless, a subgroup of 6,000 Palestinians still held in Israeli jails, including 280 children (34 under 15 years) - Israel declares how guilty he stops all children - and 22 members of Parliament. Some prisoners are "administrative", that is to say, detained without trial, others have gone through the Israeli judicial system, including all international reports confirm that it is anything but fair, that detainees are often mistreated that the evidence of guilt is weak or nonexistent. Dozens of them are now in a hunger strike. And they, they have no family? no relatives? No, they are just a number. They are Arabs, colonized faceless.

Nicolas Sarkozy will be there as much effort to secure the release of French-Palestinian Salah Hamouri? Or Marwan Barghouti, whose only crime is to be a Palestinian nationalist?



In another french newspaper, i read that Shalit was fine, has watched Le Tour de France and other tv programs etc...
October 19, 2011 1:50:32 AM

gropouce said:

@knarl: the important word in my sentence was "more".



Well, I guess if you want to you could try and argue kidnappings will stay exactly 100% the same level. But in reality it's more likely to either go up or go down.

Logically why would it NOT be "more"? I fail to see why there would be less kidnapping, seeing as they were actually rewarded for their behavior.
October 19, 2011 2:32:23 AM

Gropouce,

Just to clarify, do you think it's right that Guilad was kidnapped and held for years and that because he is "ok" no harm was done and because Israel doesn't do everything right Hamas' actions are acceptable?

Does it strike you as odd that it's a 1000 to 1 ratio for the exchange? Does that indicate who wants peace more?

Hamas cannot recognize that Israel has a right to exist. Should we pretend they are acting in good faith? Should we support their desire to destroy Israel?

Reverse the situation, if Hamas had the military might of Israel, would we even be having this conversation? If the Middle East was 90% Jewish and 10% Arab/Persian etc would there be this conflict?

Everywhere radical Islamists gain political/military power they drive out, kill or violently persecute Jews and people of any other faith. Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Hindus and many other people live in Israel and participate the political process. That cannot be said of those in control of Gaza and the West Bank.

While I believe that both parties have faults that does not mean I have to consider the moral claims of each party as equally legitimate. The idea that all opinions/values are equally valid is a pox on us all---some things are right and some things are wrong even if we have to argue about what that is.
October 19, 2011 3:20:37 AM

both sides were happy in the end. It was a good deal to Israeli's because they value their citizens and they would trade 1000 Palestine's for one of their own.

Mutt X i totally agree with you. israeli's want to be left alone and have land that historically belongs to them. Israel obviously want peace more and Palenstine wants Israel wiped off the planet. The President of Iran Ahmadinejad says the Holocaust never happened. they barely recognize Jews even though they worship the same god.

Here is a quote on what most prisoners have done-
Quote:
Some have been convicted of murder but others are detained and tried for political activities.

Most have been dealt with by the Israeli military justice system, which is criticised by human rights campaigners.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13989989

obviously not all are trying to kill jews but under Israeli law they are doing something illegal, by now they should know what is illegal and what is not because so many have been sent to jail. The only people to blame for so many prisoners in Israel is the people who committed the crimes. Israel is just upholding their laws.

The human rights violations are-
Quote:
Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails launched a hunger strike to protest increasingly discriminatory, inhumane and illegal treatment by the Israeli government – ranging from preventing access to books, educational programs and new clothes, to imposing solitary confinement on inmate leaders, to restricting visits by families and lawyers.

http://www.paltelegraph.com/palestine/gaza-strip/10332-...
- so wait they weren't underfed beaten or anything like that? No their clothes were just a little stinky.
October 19, 2011 7:14:33 AM

gropouce said:

For an objective assessment of the Palestinians, we can not trust the Israeli courts.

You also cannot trust anyone else.

And at least this time, the Israelis got back one live body instead of two dead ones.
October 19, 2011 8:58:59 AM

Mutt x said:
Gropouce,

Just to clarify, do you think it's right that Guilad was kidnapped and held for years and that because he is "ok" no harm was done and because Israel doesn't do everything right Hamas' actions are acceptable?


Sorry but it is a stupid question. Don't hear what i didn't say.


Mutt x said:

Does it strike you as odd that it's a 1000 to 1 ratio for the exchange? Does that indicate who wants peace more?


Two stupid quesions. Are you a journalist? :) 

Mutt x said:

Hamas cannot recognize that Israel has a right to exist. Should we pretend they are acting in good faith? Should we support their desire to destroy Israel?


Destroy Israel? Khaled Mechaal (from the Hamas) said: "It will remain a state called Israel, is a fact. The problem is not the existence of an entity called Israel. The problem is that no Palestinian state. "
BTW do you REALLY think that Israel, one of the powerful army in the world, first ally of the U.S. (which pays $ 3 billion a year for "safety") is in danger? you should have a look on Gaza and see in what condition they try to live, watching Israeli settlers burn their olive groves.
As i said: both Israelis and Palestinians have to be blame in this story.



Mutt x said:

Everywhere radical Islamists gain political/military power they drive out, kill or violently persecute Jews and people of any other faith. Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Hindus and many other people live in Israel and participate the political process. That cannot be said of those in control of Gaza and the West Bank.


We were talking about Palestine... and now you call them radical islamists. (there are certainly radical islamists in Palestine, that doesn't mean that every Palestinian deserve the same treatment.)
I say that Israeli army is leaded by dangerous radical Jews.
I also say that it is the plague that the United States is an ally so blind to Israel. This is one reason why people are wiping their ass with the Stars and Stripes in the Middle East.

Who says this land belongs to Jews and only Jews?
Where are the Palestinians supposed to live? (are they supposed to live? anyway, they are dying in general indifference.)
If the Jews should get "their" land for historical reasons, I think the Americans should leave their country, back in Ireland, Scotland, England, France, Africa etc and leave the country to the Native Americans.
October 19, 2011 12:59:22 PM

Did anyone know, the Israeli Knesset (parliament) has Arabs as part of the governing council. Does the Palestinian Authority governing body allow Jews to be a part? I think not.

Ask any Arab living in a city controlled by the Jews; they wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Why? Because it is safe and stable. Jerusalem being a shining example.

@gropouce

I don't know where you get that the Jews are burning the Palestinan's olive groves and such. That sounds like a bunch of anti-semitic propaganda to me.

If the Palestinians were smart, they would take a clue from the Arabs living alongside the Jews, in peace, in Jewish controlled cities. That is how you coexist. Not by slitting the throats of an entire Jewish family (including a newborn) and then handing out cookies in the streets afterwards to celebrate.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/142846
October 19, 2011 1:54:52 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:


@gropouce

I don't know where you get that the Jews are burning the Palestinan's olive groves and such. That sounds like a bunch of anti-semitic propaganda to me.


Le Figaro - French newspaper, 19/09/2011

"Israeli settlers set fire to an olive grove that night in which five hundred trees were burned near Nablus in the northern West Bank, said the Palestinian official security services. The incident caused by settlers from the nearby settlement of Yitzhar occurred near the village of Einabbous. The Israeli army prevented Palestinian firefighters from Nablus to come and fight against fire.

Extremist settlers have a policy of retaliation, said the "price tag", which is to take revenge on Palestinian targets, and recently on the Israeli army or Israeli anti-settlement activists, every time the Israeli authorities take measures they consider hostile to settlement.

Following the demolition by the army of three homes built in West Bank settlements, settlers and radicals have recently conducted a series of anti-Palestinian attacks, including against mosques.

Vandals have also introduced a nightly basis for the IDF near Ramallah, West Bank, and military vehicles were damaged. A suspect 26-year-old from the settlement of Eli, was arrested."

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-actu/2011/09/19/97001-2011...



October 19, 2011 2:03:17 PM

"said the Palestinian official security services."

Seriously?
October 19, 2011 2:40:15 PM

No, you're right dude.
But these dirty bastards Islamists are treacherous and lied to AFP that broadcast the information without checking it.
They actually were roasting marshmallows around a campfire.
October 19, 2011 2:47:10 PM

Quote:
BTW do you REALLY think that Israel, one of the powerful army in the world, first ally of the U.S. (which pays $ 3 billion a year for "safety" ) is in danger?

And we give no money to Palestine or any of the other corrupt nations in the middle east. :pfff:  not a well thought through statement.

Gropouce- Mutt x's questions were not stupid. you just didnt want to answer them.

link to that Khaled Mechaal statement?

Quote:
Who says this land belongs to Jews and only Jews?
Where are the Palestinians supposed to live? (are they supposed to live? anyway, they are dying in general indifference.)
If the Jews should get "their" land for historical reasons, I think the Americans should leave their country, back in Ireland, Scotland, England, France, Africa etc and leave the country to the Native Americans.

no one said it only belonged to the jews. it is not israel's fault that the palestine government cannot take care of its people.
that is a silly statement. there are few native Americans that are full native american so what would the 1/8 native americans do? they couldn't populate america. Jews can populate Israel. where are they supposed to go? back to Germany. that isnt really home sweet home huh?
October 19, 2011 2:56:13 PM

gropouce said:
No, you're right dude.
But these dirty bastards Islamists are treacherous and lied to AFP that broadcast the information without checking it.
They actually were roasting marshmallows around a campfire.



I'm not saying that, i'm just questioning the "source" in that article. I highly doubt it is unbiased and objective.
October 19, 2011 3:28:58 PM

Oldman you are calling that kettle black as night.

Quote:
I highly doubt it is unbiased and objective.
October 19, 2011 3:35:05 PM

Your right, I will just flat out call them (the PLA security service) liars.

In addition, not once have I ever made the claim of being unbiased.
October 19, 2011 3:55:07 PM

Oldmangamer_73 said:
I'm not saying that, i'm just questioning the "source" in that article. I highly doubt it is unbiased and objective.


I know oldman, it was a dispatch from AFP, Agence France Presse, the equivalent of Reuters.
I'm pretty sure they check their informations.
October 19, 2011 4:56:41 PM

As a side note not to derail the thread but.........

Gropouce your English is getting really good. You have a better handle on it then some of the people who post here.
October 19, 2011 5:27:03 PM

Gropounce,

You seem to have no sense of objectivity. Your posts fail to recognize this is a relationship problem with no innocent parties. You just list criticisms of Israel or justify Hamas.

It seems you have accepted a narrative (like victim-bully) that blinds you to evidence that contradicts it. You are not trying to use reason but are driven by subjective emotions and perceptions. Therefore, it gives you great comfort to hear people say things you agree with and you dismiss ideas and/or people off as "stupid" if they challenge your assumptions, bias or ideas.

What is extra amusing is that you think everyone else posting here "thinks' just like you! lol

I do know your speak English much better than I speak anything else. Kudos for that.
October 19, 2011 7:29:47 PM

Thx Wanamingo :D 

Mutt x said:
Gropounce,

You seem to have no sense of objectivity. Your posts fail to recognize this is a relationship problem with no innocent parties. You just list criticisms of Israel or justify Hamas.

It seems you have accepted a narrative (like victim-bully) that blinds you to evidence that contradicts it. You are not trying to use reason but are driven by subjective emotions and perceptions. Therefore, it gives you great comfort to hear people say things you agree with and you dismiss ideas and/or people off as "stupid" if they challenge your assumptions, bias or ideas.

What is extra amusing is that you think everyone else posting here "thinks' just like you! lol

I do know your speak English much better than I speak anything else. Kudos for that.


Thank you for psychoanalysis, but I think it will not help next time. In a debate, when one attacks the credibility of the other with grotesque suppositions, the discussion is ruined. And it shows the inability to produce counterarguments.
As i said earlier, i think both parts have to be blame. Look.
I am not defending either of the parties, or if I do, it is to balance the debate a bit, because few people will. I have many grievances against the Israelis and Palestinians. We must blame the two nations. said:
I am not defending either of the parties, or if I do, it is to balance the debate a bit, because few people will. I have many grievances against the Israelis and Palestinians. We must blame the two nations.



I will read the article that you put a link.

Mutt x said:

Lord, help us all.


Including Palestinians? :D 

October 19, 2011 10:08:04 PM

yes including Palestinians so that they will realize that our god (same for Jews Christians and Muslims) would not want any of his people to murder each other. if the Palestinians could find it in their hearts to share land that historically was inhabited by Jews and not want Israel wiped off the planet i'm sure the good lord would be happy.
!