MMR: The Bully Conundrum

robwright

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Rockstar Games has replaced Grand Theft Auto's guns, drugs and murderous mayhem with slingshots, dodge balls and teenage mischief in Bully. And the game even encourages players to go to class! Yet Bully is still under fire from critics and anti-gaming activists. Here's why.
 

winky

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I'd have to say that article is very well written. :D

Beyond hypocrisy i can't imagine any valid reason to single out the Bully game for banning/criticism/etc.
 

otimus

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The real REAL reason why the game is being attacked?
Simple.
it's called Bully.
Most people think it's about bullying.
Most people = stupid.
 

robwright

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Has anyone here played the game yet? I spent the weekend playing it, and I have to say that while you can pull some malicious pranks -- sniping football players from a tree with a slingshot, for example -- the game's premise is pretty much based on standing up to bullies and defending geeks and other types of students that frequently tormented. I also think the game is pretty excellent. It's funny, it's exciting, and it's got some shrewed social commentary. It's far from perfect -- there's corny dialogue and silly side missions, but what game doesn't have those elements these days? -- but Bully is still one of the better games I've played recently.
 

samir_nayanajaad

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I think all this attention is due to a basic human reaction of if you don’t understand it get rid of it. I remember when my family got a vcr, my dad didn’t like it at all. He didn’t want to use it nor wanted to attempt to learn how to use it. Eventually after several years we got him used to it. Then DVDs came out same thing there but we got him up to speed, but it was like pulling teeth to get it done.

I don’t like to drag religion in to this but heck the pope didn’t like it too much when someone said "hey I don’t think the world is flat and I don’t think everything revolves around it."

It only took a few hundred years for them to say sorry. They didn’t like the idea because it didn’t align with what they thought at the time.

Then you have Socrates who died because he wanted people to simply question what they were told, not just believe everything they were told.

People don’t like things to change a lot, so when anything comes up that threatens change in a way they don’t like, those who don’t like it will fight to keep things as they are.

I guess in some way these games are too much of a change for some.
 

FITCamaro

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I really hate Jack Thompson. The man is completely devoid of the fact that responsibility lies with parents. If you don't want your kid to play the game, don't buy him/her the game.

And video games make people kill other people like a spoon makes people get fat.
 

dean7

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Nice. I am a totally non-violent person, but I absolutely love a good old-fashioned violent game every now and then! It has absolutely nothing to do with actual violence. It's a game and nothing more.

That issue aside, Bully actually sounds like it's teaching a lesson that I would want my kids to hear (if I had kids). I wouldn't want my kids to never stand up for themselves if they were being picked on at school.
 

michaelahess

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I actually emailed Jack during one of the GTA debacles. The guy is completely blinded by his hatred. He has no sense of the real world anymore (if he ever did).

I told him how the game is what it is and unless you are mentally unstable it won't have a negative impact. He said for the most part that he agreed, but he felt it was his duty to keep software like this off the shelves to prevent "the few" from corrupting "the many". Hum, sounds kinda like gun laws doesn't it?

I also told him I thought it was the parents responsibility to monitor what their kids play. He agreed, and apperantly he must be EVERY kids parent; he said "Why the Hell do you think I'm doing this?"

The guy is crazy. He should stop attacking and sueing every company with a violent game, and start supporting parent awareness groups instead. He'd get more done, but I guess he might go broke doing that.
 

BigMac

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Rockstar Games has replaced Grand Theft Auto's guns, drugs and murderous mayhem with slingshots, dodge balls and teenage mischief in Bully. And the game even encourages players to go to class! Yet Bully is still under fire from critics and anti-gaming activists. Here's why.

I'm not too sure what is there to debate. To be it's obvious that Rockstar Games has had the explicit strategy here to make Bully a controversial title in the public's eye, and then pulling a fast one on all of us by making it a potentially worthwhile game.

Cudos to them in the advertising department, and it puts some emphasis on the fact that in order to judge something, you have to have a look at the gaming experience first.

The only thing I don't approve of really is that a lot of arguments of activists do carry some merit and they should not be ignored, instead those issues should be debated in public.
 

cafuddled

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The only thing I don't approve of really is that a lot of arguments of activists do carry some merit and they should not be ignored, instead those issues should be debated in public.
I have found myself thinking just that, if I were not a gamer what would I think of violent video games. As a gamer I know that violent games like San Andreas don’t make me want to go out there and kill people. But of course people who have not experienced what I have will disagree.

I have had a very free upbringing with a mother that did not care what I did or what I watched. I was watching 18 rated movies at the age of about 13 with Hell Raiser being that first movie. I even got Grand Theft Auto for the Play Station when it was first released, would have been 14/15 back then.

But you don’t see me wanting to kill anyone. I am not a reject of society that sponges off the nation, I have my own car, rent my own flat and pay all the tax that is required of me. I just believe you cant make a bad person out of a violent game you just get all the bad people playing violent video games as a release for what they feel like doing.
 

Busto963

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I think the article was actually very well done, but it missed the point. Our culture in the United States has become very coarse and in general, is in serious decline. Now watching violent movie, listening to explicit lyrics, playing grand theft auto etc is not going to turn an otherwise healthy person into a mindless axe murderering prostitute. That said, I think we are kidding ourselves if we did not own up to the fact that pop culture sure is not doing what culture has traditionally done: reinforce positive social values. Culture does not simply reflect real life, there is a very real interaction with social norms.

It is no accident that by almost every metric, teen pregnancy rates, STDs, drug use, murder rate, divorce rate, flagging academic performance, spouse abuse etc we are in decline. I am not saying that there is not room for violence, sex and edgy stuff. But when almost every aspect of the entertainment industry hinges around questionable sex, violence, drug use, foul language, unethical behaviour etc, and all in the name of making money - we have a problem.

Sadly, Hollywood, the cable networks, the gaming industry and certainly the music industry have all pretty much ignored taking any responsibility for providing reasonable content unless some lawyer like Thompson threatens their bottom line. I really detest lawyers. But if the alternative is that mainstream culture will be determined by Paris Hilton, Snoop Dog, and "Tony Montana" - then my vote is for the lawyers to file away!
 

BigMac

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I think the article was actually very well done, but it missed the point.

I'm missing your point as well, and I'm wondering whether you actually read the article. The point of the article being, that it is a lot of fuss about nothing, it's a marketing gimmick and the game itself is actually somewhat enjoyable.

Hardly a good startup for a discussion about how how society is in decline, which is (almost by definition) an ill defined statement. At the very least it is a rather colored statement with regard to how you perceive history. It would help if you could start with pointing out since when society is in decline, in your opinion.
 

BigMac

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But you don’t see me wanting to kill anyone.

You're making a mistake I see a lot of people making when getting into this kind of debate. Very simply, how you turned out is irrelevant to the discussion. Discussing whether games are good or bad for one's health is a discussion about public health. So you need to look at it in terms of populations, susceptability and probabilities. How much damage will be done to society because of.... (fill in your favorite "decline of society" symptom, just to stitch this discussion to that post of Busto923) and is it worth it taking precautions by legislature. Maybe we're just talking about 10% of the population that is susceptible to violent behavior, with just a subpercentage of that causing 90% of the damage.

Prohibition is not going to work (we saw it with alcohol, we see it with drugs, and it won't work with violent games or movies either) so it is rather a discussion about whether effective legislature is even possible in the context of "violent" entertainment.

Two elements in the "effective" container:
1) Would such measures actually lead to decrease of violence in society (and how much more violent is society nowadays if you compare it with, lets say 100 years ago)
2) Can such legislature be enforced effectively?
 

cafuddled

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Two elements in the "effective" container:
1) Would such measures actually lead to decrease of violence in society (and how much more violent is society nowadays if you compare it with, lets say 100 years ago)
2) Can such legislature be enforced effectively?
You can ask the question, is society more violent at all. After all in the last 100 years you will find two world wars and far too many genocides to bare thinking of. Violence has been a part of our human nature since our creation, but you have to ask what causes violence in this age in history? Hatred of something causes violence, jealousy causes violence and repression also causes violence. The thing you have to ask is, does violent video games cause or bring out the violence in people.

The nature of a video game is to immerse you in an environment that you enjoy and can have fun in. Every game you will buy today will shoot for that goal, even violent ones. People play games like Grand Theft Auto to get involved with drug deals and high-speed car chases with the Police or the Russian Mafia. But the game can also offer (people who wish to do so) the ability to do some horrible things.

The question I am trying to ask is that if games are just made for an escape of reality, how can they possibly influence people to do bad things? Surely the people who do these things would do them anyway, maybe even sooner if it were not for the games. Things like school shootings happen all over the world. The Dunblane School massacre that got all firearms outlawed in the UK, the shoot out in the Russian primary school last year and not to forget the many horrible shootings that seem to happen in American schools.

Also if they did prove that it was violent video games that were actually warping the minds of people that played the games. It would still be impossible to ban since the Internet has everything.
 

BigMac

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You can ask the question, is society more violent at all. After all in the last 100 years you will find two world wars and far too many genocides to bare thinking of.
This is exactly what I was hinting at. Not the world wars specifically but it is pretty obvious that human society has been pretty violent throughout known history.

The question I am trying to ask is that if games are just made for an escape of reality, how can they possibly influence people to do bad things?
It's not just about how such games might manipulate people into violent acts, it is much more to do with inadvertently reducing personal inhibitions that normally would block out primitive urges. It's the same with alcohol for instance. People start to do crazy stuf, that they normally would reject doing but their inhibitions are lowered. As such games might have a similar effect (but this should be established through scientific means).

Also if they did prove that it was violent video games that were actually warping the minds of people that played the games. It would still be impossible to ban since the Internet has everything.
That is what the effective legislature bit is about.
 

Busto963

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I'm missing your point as well, and I'm wondering whether you actually read the article. The point of the article being, that it is a lot of fuss about nothing, it's a marketing gimmick and the game itself is actually somewhat enjoyable.

Hardly a good startup for a discussion about how how society is in decline, which is (almost by definition) an ill defined statement. At the very least it is a rather colored statement with regard to how you perceive history. It would help if you could start with pointing out since when society is in decline, in your opinion.

I read the article, clearly you did not read my post. My point was that our culture is in decline and that this game, as symptomatic of the gaming industry along with other elements of the entertainment industry, is not helping to move culture in a positive direction. Further, you have demonstrated no understanding of the topic to offer critical discourse. 8O

Webster defines: Culture – the ideas, customs, skills, arts etc of a given people … Do some research and you will find that my "perception of history" is spot on - our society is demonstrably worse off today. I stated:

“It is no accident that by almost every metric, teen pregnancy rates, STDs, drug use, murder rate, divorce rate, flagging academic performance, spouse abuse etc we are in decline. I am not saying that there is not room for violence, sex and edgy stuff. But when almost every aspect of the entertainment industry hinges around questionable sex, violence, drug use, foul language, unethical behaviour etc, and all in the name of making money - we have a problem.”

You have to be kidding yourself if you think that things are okay, or that we are just going through a rough patch. Have you ever actually looked at violent crime statistics for the US? In 1960 there were 160.9 violent crimes per 100,000 people. In 2005 the rate was 469.2; an improvement from the 1992 peak of 757.5, but still almost three times as bad as in 1960. Are you aware that the national graduation rate for the public school class of 2000 was 69% - that is 31 out of every 100 students did not graduate? The US teenage pregnancy rate is twice that of Canada and the UK and almost eight times higher than Japan and the Netherlands! Have you looked at our infant mortality rate, children borne to unwed mothers, drug use statistics, criminal incarceration rates etc? Have you compared these statistics through the years, as well as compared them to other first world nations? Our culture has clearly frayed.

Now look at pop culture in 1960, 1990 and today. There is a fair correlation between societal ills and the redefinement of cultural norms made by the entertainment industry over the same period. Teenage girls did not call each other b*&#$ in 1960 as a matter of routine. Pop culture sure changed that and I am not impressed. And the entire entertainment industry, including the game companies, has not responded positively to try and help reverse the decline.
 

Busto963

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You can ask the question, is society more violent at all. After all in the last 100 years you will find two world wars and far too many genocides to bare thinking of.

This is a great point, but there is a difference between organized violence between societies (war), and violence inside a society (crime). In the US, we have experienced a significant increase in the latter from the previous century.

I have a good friend who was priest in Spain who lamented that by 1995, most homocides in the US were committed between people who did not know each other. He contrasted this with Spain, and earlier periods in the US were homocides were crimes of passion between people who knew each other (e.g. husband comes home to find the wife sleeping with another guy). He thought that the crime of passion, was horrible, and wrong, but understandable in human terms, but that killing a stranger was dispassionate and almost inhuman. He compared it to the actions of a soldier at war, but without the moral context.
 

BigMac

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I read the article, clearly you did not read my post. My point was that our culture is in decline and that this game, as symptomatic of the gaming industry along with other elements of the entertainment industry, is not helping to move culture in a positive direction. Further, you have demonstrated no understanding of the topic to offer critical discourse. 8O

First of all, I did not realize you meant your culture in as limited a way as the national culture of the USA (if there is such a thing). Personally I was thinking western/modern world/first world culture, as I'm not from the US, but I'm from the Netherlands. We (westerners) all play games, watch movies and enjoy similar entertainment.

Secondly, if your only link from Rob's article to this debate is based on a game you think is not a highlight of modern culture then you must agree that you're just looking to shoot your rocks off, and you're not looking to debate the article itself (which is what this topic was intended for). There is plenty of more ammunition with regard to Hollywood's latest and greatest gore, than this particular game (if you really have read the article about Bully then surely you agree?).

“It is no accident that by almost every metric, teen pregnancy rates, STDs, drug use, murder rate, divorce rate, flagging academic performance, spouse abuse etc we are in decline. I am not saying that there is not room for violence, sex and edgy stuff. But when almost every aspect of the entertainment industry hinges around questionable sex, violence, drug use, foul language, unethical behaviour etc, and all in the name of making money - we have a problem.”

Now I'm not disagreeing with you that (if what you state is actually true, and as I have no data at my disposal right now to prove the contrary, and I'm perfectly willing to play along with your assumptions without obliging you to cough up your sources) judging by the metrics you give in your post, those trends are worrysome to say the least. I'm sure it will also be possible to cough up a number of metrics that show a better picture.

However my point being if you want to judge the merits of a culture by just negative metrics and not by noteworthy accomplishments, then you will always sound like an old fart saying "life used to be better". Remarkable isnt it, that EVERY generation has many people around saying just that, even the generation that went through 2 world wars.

You have to be kidding yourself if you think that things are okay, or that we are just going through a rough patch.

Actually, if you increase the scale of your time horizon somewhat then there's a lot more evidence to be found that will show we're "just" going through a rough patch, instead of a irreversible decline. Again, my perspective is not US limited, it's a democratic western culture perspective. And lets not confuse culture with world politics and world domination, although there are obvious correlations to be made (in terms of being succesful, etc).
 

Busto963

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First of all, I did not realize you meant your culture in as limited a way as the national culture of the USA (if there is such a thing). Personally I was thinking western/modern world/first world culture, as I'm not from the US, but I'm from the Netherlands. We (westerners) all play games, watch movies and enjoy similar entertainment.

Secondly, if your only link from Rob's article to this debate is based on a game you think is not a highlight of modern culture then you must agree that you're just looking to shoot your rocks off, and you're not looking to debate the article itself (which is what this topic was intended for).

Over a third of the article focuses on the legal ruling of a Florida state judge and the accompanying aftermath, along with references to film and other genres. While it did address reaction from various world-wide audiences, the article was clearly focused on the US. Putting the principal critics point of view (Thompson) in context is totally germane. :roll:

However my point being if you want to judge the merits of a culture by just negative metrics and not by noteworthy accomplishments, then you will always sound like an old fart saying "life used to be better".

I am an old fart, and do agree with your point, but offer a major caveat. If people in a culture accept violence as a means of successful social interaction, tolerate rampant drug use, and willing subordinate their culture – that is the values that have made them great, then the noteworthy accomplishments do not mean much.

Now I'm not disagreeing with you that (if what you state is actually true, and as I have no data at my disposal right now to prove the contrary, and I'm perfectly willing to play along with your assumptions without obliging you to cough up your sources) judging by the metrics you give in your post, those trends are worrysome to say the least.

No joke these trends are worrysome. The numbers are right, hence the frustration of a lot of people like Thompson with the entertainment industry (including game companies) and the "we're not responsible attitude".

Actually, if you increase the scale of your time horizon somewhat then there's a lot more evidence to be found that will show we're "just" going through a rough patch, instead of a irreversible decline.

As a counterpoint: in 1965, 24 percent of black infants were born to single mothers. By 1990 the rate rose to 64 percent according to the Brookings Institute. Today, forty-three percent of black pregnancies end in abortion, and nearly 70 percent of all black children are born out-of-wedlock according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute. The impact on poverty, crime, and human suffering is unbelievable. Almost 50% of US prison inmates are Black. It did not used to be this way, African American society was every bit as moral as the rest of America, perhaps in some ways more so. What happened is that African American social norms have all but collapsed. Like I said, this is not a rough patch, we are looking at serious trouble, because mainstream US culture is headed in the same direction and with equally dire consequences.
 

infornography42

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As you pointed out (and I actually looked up on my own several months ago) we are actually experiencing a decline in violent crime since 1994. A rather significant decline.

1994 was the year that the first popular violent first person shooter hit the market. Since that point violent crime has been in notable decline and shrinking fairly steadily. Blaming violent crime on violent video games just makes no sense from the statistical angle that many like you try to use. If anything using the same correlation argument, it looks like violent video games are causing violent crime to diminish.

I would say what we are experiencing is less of a decline and more of a rise after a long and violent fall. At least as far as violent crime is concerned.

Sexual crimes are also on a sharp decline on basically the same timetable.

That leaves teen pregnancy, drug use, and poverty.

Honestly I would say the first two are indicative of the last of those rather than some other cause and they just happen to exacerbate the problem there.

I will never condone blanket restrictions of entertainment mediums no matter the reason. Age restrictions I can understand and agree with, but banning is going too far. I may not enjoy games like GTA and consider them to be tasteless and stupid, but I will never call for them to be banned or made illegal.

Yes I think something should be done about violent crimes but censoring our entertainment is NOT the way to fix it. There are other, more effective methods that can be used, like programs designed to ACTUALLY rehabilitate inmates and getting rid of public access to criminal records which is directly linked to high recidivism rates due to inability to obtain worthwhile employment.

Going after scapegoats is just pointless. Fix the REAL problems and the rest will take care of itself.
 

llama_man

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You have to be kidding yourself if you think that things are okay, or that we are just going through a rough patch. Have you ever actually looked at violent crime statistics for the US? In 1960 there were 160.9 violent crimes per 100,000 people. In 2005 the rate was 469.2; an improvement from the 1992 peak of 757.5, but still almost three times as bad as in 1960. Are you aware that the national graduation rate for the public school class of 2000 was 69% - that is 31 out of every 100 students did not graduate? The US teenage pregnancy rate is twice that of Canada and the UK and almost eight times higher than Japan and the Netherlands! Have you looked at our infant mortality rate, children borne to unwed mothers, drug use statistics, criminal incarceration rates etc? Have you compared these statistics through the years, as well as compared them to other first world nations? Our culture has clearly frayed.

So you're saying that culturally the US is doing much worse than, say, Canada, the UK and the Netherlands?

Er, this might come as a shock to you, but those countries aren't living in the dark ages. We have Grand Theft Auto in Britain too, you know.

Congratulation on disproving your own argument. :trophy:

The problem with the US has nothing to do with the entertainment industry. If I had to put my finger on it, I'd suggest that maybe it's due to mass dienfranchisement. The gap between rich and poor in America is one of the widest in the developed world. Voter apathy is at a high, with the US having one of the worst election turnouts of any Western democracy. There are whole socio-economic groups who feel totally disenfranchises by the "culture" that they're supposed to admire. This is why America is violent - not watching "Die Hard" one too many times.

The whole debacle would be laughable if it wasn't so sinister. The feeble attempt to make the entertainment industry a scapegoat for widespread and prolonged failure of government smacks a little too much of Germany in 1936 for my liking. I'm just waiting for Thompson to claim that there are links between Rockstar and Al Qaeda. :roll:
 

Busto963

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As you pointed out (and I actually looked up on my own several months ago) we are actually experiencing a decline in violent crime since 1994. A rather significant decline.

1994 was the year that the first popular violent first person shooter hit the market. Since that point violent crime has been in notable decline and shrinking fairly steadily. Blaming violent crime on violent video games just makes no sense from the statistical angle that many like you try to use. If anything using the same correlation argument, it looks like violent video games are causing violent crime to diminish.

Again as an old fart (military retiree, and trained operations research analyst with federal law enforcement back ground), you are totally off base in your assessment. You are also misinterpreting those statistics:
1) You dramatically understate the long-term metric, which is that US society is still almost three times more violent than in 1960.
2) You are ignoring important variables that occurred in 1990s that have a much greater impact on lowering crime statistics such as the huge increase in the number of law enforcement officers in service (Bill Clinton’s 100,000 cops), the adoption of mandatory sentencing guidelines , three strikes and your out laws etc, which have put more criminals behind bars (a very good thing), but not truly diminished violence, nor addressed the $35,000 cost per inmate per year cost of keeping an inmate behind bars.
3) You ignore important factors like the absolute amazing US economy that roared in the mid 1990s and to date remains strong with an incredibly low unemployment rate (<5%). The economy and crime generally show a very strong, direct correlation.
4) You assume that the overall trend is downward, when in fact, there has been a 1.3% increase in the violent crime rate since 2004, and that future crime projection rates predict that the next two generations of juveniles will be significantly more violent based on demographics and criminal profiling. This is supported by appalling school graduation rates (69% in 2000), which predict long term poverty. Also, lot of those violent cons that were put behind bars in 1990s have served their sentences, and are coming back on the street.
5) You ignore the proliferation and effect of advance criminal investigative tools like DNA testing in improving prosecutions of violent criminals, and the reality that a lot of criminals have been apprehended by federal law enforcement as a result investigations into terrorism under expanded Patriot Act powers (wire taps). You ignore the effect of other technology such as the installation of metal detection equipment, alarm systems etc.
There are a lot of things that just did not happen in the 1950s and the 1960s, even in communities that were in utter abject, destitute poverty, that are commonplace today. Crime was not something mainstream America thought about, most people really did not lock their doors in 1960. Now, every body worries about crime. In 1960, it was almost unheard of to speak back to, let alone assault a police officer. Assaults on teachers were also unheard of – we had a teacher on the west side gang rapped by her 13 year old students this past summer. There are definitely “no go” areas now in most American cities where even law enforcement does not respond at night. That is something that unheard of previously and also has resulted on under reporting of crime due to intimidation.

Mass media has been advocating a powerful, self-reinforcing, counter culture message for a long time. Trying to pin violence and declining social values on the gaming industry, let alone a single game is ludicrous, but when you look at the social values promoted by mass media and the entertainment industry, of which gaming is a part, the picture is different. My point being that one song, game, movie will not do it, but continued exposure to violence, irresponsible sex, drugs, and a host of other questionable social behavior, on cable TV, in games, in music, at the movie theatre etc. over years of development do have an effect. Obviously, the effect is greater on people that have less support from family, but I guarantee there is an effect. The advertising industry isn’t a $2-300 billion dollar industry because the tens of millions of dollars spent on a thirty second TV ad don’t work. No guy wants to admit that he bought a car because the ads featured some hot babe in it, but the statistics tell us its true. Anyone with children will tell you how effective TV adds are at selling kids cereal. Our pop culture contines to promote violence, drug use, irresponsible sex and other behavior. Weapons training results in the military and law enforcement tell us its true.