Limited activation DRM: Its becoming commonplace!?!

[stemnin]

Tarr : Chronicles has limited installs!

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?s=4d13e46d0553c07bc8e1396c7031789b&t=323372
http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wtfvx0.jpg


Wow, amazing! A dev said this:

we need to have some kind of control about people installing the game on multiple computers

On a sidenote, Tarr don't like Vista and multi cores i've read .. I can't get the demo started up!

1st edit: Apparently theres a "fix" for the full version, but they aren't planning on fixing the demo for multi core users with vista, truly amazing.

2nd edit: Apparently there's a "fixed demo" with "enhanced vista and multi core support".. gonna find that..

I doubt this game is gonna be big as Bioshock, it's apparently already out, maybe its big in europe?

 

[Belinda]

I hate all the DRM and disc check stuff. I can sometimes put up with the DRM checks but the need the disc to play noway. Kids and disks do NOT go together for long, well not unless you can throw both in the bin when one dosn't work.

 

[Ananan]

PLease, please, please gamers.

Take one for the team.

Do not support software that has install limits.

They're not combating piracy. They're attempting to close down the used PC game /ebay market and prevent game sharing (a perfectly legal activity) among other nefarious things.

 

[stemnin]

interesting, never thought of that.

 

[rennervision]

Yeah, interesting. I've never heard it phrased like that. I know game developers hate the used game market because it eats into their profits. (They obviously don't see one penny of a used game that is sold.)

Ananan - the more I think about it, the more I think you really nailed it. "Piracy" is actually being used as a scapegoat.

But I think limited installs can affect the original owner of the game as well. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but I routinely have to change hard drives with a cloned copy I make for backups. (Something gets screwed up, and it's a heck of a lot easier to get out my screw driver and fix it in five minutes instead of spending hours trying to figure out what file in my OS got modified.) I believe an article on this site actually revealed that a hard drive change qualifies as a significant hardware modification to Bioshock, so I would end up using one of my allotted five installs.

Sometimes I might even install a game to make sure it works, then uninstall it to free up some space while I finish another game. It's really not outside the realm of possibility that I could use up all my installs.

 

[Moggle]

I agree, I think the general public as well as PC gamers feel that when you buy a game (or a DVD/music CD) they should have the right to use a single copy of it IN WHATEVER FORMAT THEY LIKE FOR AS LONG AS THEY LIKE: whether that means using Daemon Tools so they don't have to always get the disc out, watching their purchased movie on something like an ipod, or lending the disc to their mate so he can use it for a week instead.

I'm the only guy in a house with 5 women. I was going to get Spore for the girls, but with the ridiculous DRM on spore, there's no way I'll be getting it. I'm never putting something on my PC that I can't get rid of without a HDD format/OS reinstall.

If I did want this game for myself, 3 installs would be useless. I don't have a single game in the last 20 years that I haven't reinstalled at least 15+ times. X number of installs per year etc. would be a step in the right direction, but to be honest, I'm not likely to ever get a game that requires me to beg the company to continually activate/authenticate - what happens when the company dies/withdraws support.

Anyway, I'm certainly not going to be getting Spore, regardless of how good/crap it is. There's others out there.

 

[infornography42]

And now EA has stated that they will be doing this for all of their titles. All we can do is get word out there and make sure people know what they are doing. Anybody who knowingly buys this crap is just as bad as the companies that put it on there.

 

[gamerk316]

Heres my solution to deal with this:

A company like EA cares only about one thing: its bottom line. We all need to go over to their forums, explain why we oppose this method of DRM, and tell them the following:

A) We are boycotting all EA games that contain any invasive DRM limits/rootkits
B) We are going to every forum where the game is being promoted, and tell others why DRM = bad
C) We explain some of the legal impication EA could face as a result of these rootkits.

My home state of NY recently passed a law having to do with software being downloaded/installed without user consent. I'm currently looking to see if I for one have an legal action against EA (hey, one of my friends was one of the plaintiffs against EA in the (still pending ) Madden lawsuit). If i do have some form of action, I plan to demand a way to remove the rootkit in question, and if EA fails to comply, I will sue them. Even though I will probably lose, it should get the point across...

 

[purplerat]

I keep hearing this idea that DRM is secretly out to stop second hand sales of games and is only using piracy as it's cover. The problem I have with that is people seem to ignore that the problem with second hand game sales IS PIRACY! Without piracy used game sales are no problem for PC gaming the same as it isn't for console gaming or any other market. Here's why:

Without piracy -

Person1 buys a game for $50. Person1 gets 100% value for 100% paid- 1:1

Person1 sells used game to Person2 for $35, but loses value of still owning the game presumably losing a percentage equal to the price he sold it for. Person2 only get's partial value because the game is used (had to wait for used copy, used CD, missing box/booklet etc.), again presumably equal to the amount he saved by not buying new. So now Person1 has a net value of 30% and only paid a net of $15(30% of the games cost). Person2 has net greater net value with 70% but also paid $35 or 70% of the games cost. The total 100% paid for 100% value - 1:1

With every additional resale of the game this ratio would theoretically stay the same.



But now add piracy into the mix and assume that each person makes a copy before selling-

Person1 sells used game to Person2 for $35, but still retains almost full value by still owning the game, roughly 100%. Person2 gets presumably the same value as before because what difference does it make to him that Person1 can still play it. So now Person1 has a net value of 100% and but only paid a net of $15(30% of the games cost). Person2 still get's his net value of 70% and still paid $35/70% of the games cost. The total 100% paid but 170% value - 1:1.7

Each subsequent copy and resale will result in a growing gap between the amount paid and the actual value gotten out of the game.

 

[gamerk316]

Why is it that studio's without these extreme measures happen to make more profit per game than EA, with its "unbreakable" copy protction scheme?

 

[purplerat]

Why is it that studio's without these extreme measures happen to make more profit per game than EA, with its "unbreakable" copy protction scheme?

Where's the proof in that. Look at the top 10 PC Game sales from 2007. EA owns that list. Even when you factor in digital distribution and MMO subscriptions those are both 'extreme' examples of DRM in themselves. Basically games that sell well have some heavy handed form of DRM.


1. World of Warcraft: Burning Crusade* – Vivendi (Blizzard) – 2.25 million
2. World of Warcraft* – Vivendi (Blizzard) – 914K
3. The Sims 2* – Electronic Arts – 534K
4. The Sims 2 Seasons Expansion Pack – Electronic Arts – 433K
5. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* – Activision – 383K
6. Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars* – Electronic Arts – 350K
7. MS Age of Empires III* – Microsoft – 313K
8. Sim City 4* - Electronic Arts – 294K
9. MS Flight Simulator X* - Microsoft - 280K
10. The Sims 2 Bon Voyage Expansion Pack – Electronic Arts – 272K

 

[Heyyou27]

This is the kind of sh!t that has driven me to playing games on the Xbox360/PS3.

 

[number13]

Lets see I buy a game and I can't sell the game, seems like I just got the shaft, no I don't try to copy them but if I get tired of the game, NFS Carbon is the one going out the door next, what the beef, I OWN the game I did not buy the rights to USE the game

 

[llama_man]

I OWN the game I did not buy the rights to USE the game

I suggest you reread the EULA agreement that you clicked "I agree" to. You'll find that you are wrong.

 

[number13]

Good now that I know that EA is doing this, you can believe that I am voting with my pocket, by the way the Tarr Chronicles didn't look all that good to me FWIW

 

[rgeist554]

To be completely honest, DRM would encourage pirating for me.

I change hardware on my rig, and often, because I like to keep my PC up-to-date. This usually causes me to reformat (depending on what was installed) which generally means that I lose all of my games.

What will I do when I hit the activation limit on a game? I'm not going to go out and spend full price for another game, I will pirate / crack it / whatever to ensure I can still play with my copy. (Note: I would never, ever pirate/crack a game without buying it first)

If I did want this game for myself, 3 installs would be useless. I don't have a single game in the last 20 years that I haven't reinstalled at least 15+ times. X number of installs per year etc. would be a step in the right direction, but to be honest, I'm not likely to ever get a game that requires me to beg the company to continually activate/authenticate - what happens when the company dies/withdraws support.

+1 Except for the 15 years part. I've only been gaming for like 16.

DRM just pisses me off and I'd like to use more colorful words, but I'll refrain.

 

[stemnin]

whoa, forgot I made this thread almost a year ago.. and damn EA for making the title true.

 

[purplerat]

Ha, I didn't even realize this thread was that old until you pointed it out.

 

[mothhive]

Why is it that studio's without these extreme measures happen to make more profit per game than EA, with its "unbreakable" copy protction scheme?

Where's the proof in that. Look at the top 10 PC Game sales from 2007. EA owns that list. Even when you factor in digital distribution and MMO subscriptions those are both 'extreme' examples of DRM in themselves. Basically games that sell well have some heavy handed form of DRM.


1. World of Warcraft: Burning Crusade* – Vivendi (Blizzard) – 2.25 million
2. World of Warcraft* – Vivendi (Blizzard) – 914K
3. The Sims 2* – Electronic Arts – 534K
4. The Sims 2 Seasons Expansion Pack – Electronic Arts – 433K
5. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare* – Activision – 383K
6. Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars* – Electronic Arts – 350K
7. MS Age of Empires III* – Microsoft – 313K
8. Sim City 4* - Electronic Arts – 294K
9. MS Flight Simulator X* - Microsoft - 280K
10. The Sims 2 Bon Voyage Expansion Pack – Electronic Arts – 272K

EA owns that list because it's from 2007, none of those games have DRM or limited activations and 3 of them are sims games that pretty much every casual PC gamer and their dog own.

As for Digital Distribution and MMO Subscriptions being "Extreme" forms of DRM, I think you're mixing up "Extreme" and "Effective". EA's DRM is extreme by severly limiting installs and placing malware on your PC, while Steam and MMO subscriptions are effective, give freedom to play on whatever PC you like, unlimited installs, extremely user friendly and are not intrusive.

I pay for all my games as I believe in encouraging the development of good PC games and never intend to use pirated games or cracks of any kind, but if EA decides I've installed my game too many times, I'll have to visit one of these dodgy sites to crack my copy so I can continue to play it.

It boggles the mind that they haven't moved to a digital distribution system like steam that people have accepted and that has proved popular with gamers, especially since every big release from them recently has caused a huge backlash from the community due to their DRM. Yes, I'm well aware that Crysis and Crysis Warhead are now available on Steam, but Securom and the limited installations are still part of it.

EA really need to accept that their DRM is having the opposite effect on piracy, is losing them money and is ruining their reputation (or what was left of it to begin with).

 

[purplerat]

none of those games have DRM

Please learn what DRM actually is and then we can continue this conversation. I can tell you from personal experience that the origianl Sims, which I bought on release, had DRM which forced me to buy a new ROM drive in order to play the game at all.

Also I used the word extreme in quotes on purpose because I was not mixing up extreme and effective, only pointing out that Steam gets a free pass for it's very heavy handed DRM because it works for with them and the user. When EA said Spore and Mass Effect would require the game to re-validate every 10 days people were so outraged that they actually back peddled on it. Steam by comparison re-validates every single time you play the game.

 

[rgeist554]

One thing I don't mind about Steam validation is that most games are limited to a specific number of installs, the only catch is that only one account can be logged in and playing the game at one specific time. Fine by me.

It prevents what is important, installing the copy across multiple computers by only allowing one copy to run at one time. Forcing a limited number of activations does something different entirely... it only allows you three (or so) installs on different hardware before you can't use that copy any more at all. (Unless you call in and you're lucky enough to get another activation key... which is a tiresome, time-consuming chore)

I'm all for validating the install of a game every time I play the game, so long as I'm never limited by the number of installs as long as only one copy is active and running at a time. The only reason to limit the number of activations is for greed.

 

[purplerat]

One thing I don't mind about Steam validation is that most games are limited to a specific number of installs, the only catch is that only one account can be logged in and playing the game at one specific time. Fine by me.

Actually you can be logged into Steam multiple times simultaneously and play the same game simultaneously. I believe the only limitation is that you can not play the same game online simultaneously, though it may very in different games. I've even been able to play the same game on the same account multiplayer via a LAN. I prefer Steam's method over EA's and wish they would have stuck with the 10 day re-validation portion and had scrapped the 3 one time activations. But don't be fooled into thinking Steam's DRM is anything less than very intrusive and restrictive in it's very nature. They have just done a really good job integrating it into something that work's very well for their customers.

 

[rennervision]

This limited activation BS must not have me in mind as a customer, because it seems like something is always happening that corrupts my OS and forces me to reinstall applications. I'm also very prone to hard drive failures, which is my unlucky curse in life.

I'm not someone who discards a game once it's two years old and complains about the "dated graphics." If the game is good, it could be 10+ years old and I'll still play it. So for this reason alone, the limited activation stuff really doesn't appeal to me.

Whenever I hear of limited activations, it's the only time I consider pirating a game I really want to play. At the very least, I look for a way online to circumvent the activation process on the retail version. But even if I do find a way around it, I rather not buy it and send a message that I approve of their policy.

I refused to play Bioshock until 2K removed its activation limit.

 

[purplerat]

rennervision,

I'm not tryin to pick on you specifically but I kind of find some irony in all these people who say they have to reformat their PC every couple months because in my experience the most common reason for OS corruption is using P2P or torrents. Actually since I started using Vista almost 2 years ago I haven't had to once reformat my PC due to OS corruption. That's because I now use Virtual Machine to run a secondary OS specifically for P2P and torrents. That thing is completely filled with garbage, but it's self contained so it's no issue.

 

[number13]

I've started a account at GOG.com and am going to enjoy 6 to 10 dollar games for a while, and I AM 60 that meanss that I was working with DOS 3.3 maybe you were in diapers then, as for the DRM BS, no I don.t follow it that close but not that they are going to limit the number of times I can install it, THAT is the pitts, I still have the baoxes and contentents for the MW4 series, Vengence, Mercenaries, and Black Knight, not to mention Freelancer, and Wing Commander 4, Max Payne 1&2, as well as Bioshock (interesting), Crysis(dumb), Mass Effect(dumber),NFS Carbon (OK),Grid(OMG) so a limited number of installs will make me quit buying from from EA, and I strip and reinstall XP pro about once a year, last time the MB died, will look at Vista this year maybe, or wait for Windows 7