Are There Any Really Good Mobos w/ AGP 8x?

[dukeofcrydee]

I'm going to be ready to upgrade my computer around Feb/Mar. and I want to get a GeForce FX board to replace my GeForce2. However I'll need a good mobo that supports AGP 8x, and currently all of Tom's reviews are still on boards with 4x.

So my question is, are there any really good motherboards with AGP 8x right now, that I can keep my eye on?

And I will plan on getting an Intel 2.4GHz chip with DDR RAM.

 

[halkebul]

Hello. The inclusion/exclusion of an 8X AGP slot on a motherboard is negligible. Now is not a good time to buy a motherboard for a P4 2.4. Wait a week or so, when motherboards containing the much anticipated Granite Bay Chipset will be available.

P4 2.4B + Granite Bay Motherboard + two 256MB DDR SDRAM memory modules =

And remember to use two memory modules in order to take advantage of the dual channel memory controller - doubles memory bandwidth to a theoretical maximum of 4.2GB/s.

<i>It's your world kid!!!</i>

 

[Crashman]

There are few really good 8x boards right now, but new chipsets over then next couple weeks will make those boards obsolete.

<font color=blue>You're posting in a forum with class. It may be third class, but it's still class!</font color=blue>

 

[Duke_of_Crydee]

Hello. The inclusion/exclusion of an 8X AGP slot on a motherboard is negligible.

And why is that? If a video card is 8x compatible and the mobo's AGP slot is 8x, wouldn't that give you a nice performance boost?

Or is there a bottleneck somewhere else? If so, what reviews have been written documenting this?

 

[halkebul]

And why is that? If a video card is 8x compatible and the mobo's AGP slot is 8x, wouldn't that give you a nice performance boost?

Games and apps don't need this much bandwidth. So the added bandwidth is wasted. By the time games arrive that use that much bandwidth arrive, it won't matter what AGP specification you have, because 3GIO (a.k.a. <i>PCI Express</i>) would have replaced AGP completely. 8X AGP serves basically as a marketing trick to fool people into thinking that 8X AGP cards are twice as fast as 4X AGP cards.

<i>It's your world kid!!!</i>

 

[dukeofcrydee]

Games and apps don't need this much bandwidth. So the added bandwidth is wasted. By the time games arrive that use that much bandwidth arrive, it won't matter what AGP specification you have, because 3GIO (a.k.a. PCI Express) would have replaced AGP completely.

Valid point, but I'm wondering if your timetable is accurate. Isn't it also possible that some games will utilize the added bandwidth before the AGP interface is replaced?

Keep in mind, I'm not stating that with any sort of certainty. I have no idea how much the latest games are capable of pumping through the AGP port, nor do I know how much a "must have" game like Doom III will pump through at it's highest settings.

Although it would be a statistic I'd very much like to see.

 

[halkebul]

Valid point, but I'm wondering if your timetable is accurate. Isn't it also possible that some games will utilize the added bandwidth before the AGP interface is replaced?

Keep in mind, I'm not stating that with any sort of certainty. I have no idea how much the latest games are capable of pumping through the AGP port, nor do I know how much a "must have" game like Doom III will pump through at it's highest settings.

If you set Doom III, or a game built on the Doom III engine, to it's highest settings (includes Antialiasing) then the <i>4X AGP/8X AGP argument</i> is mute because in order to run the game at it's highest settings you would need a card that will contain 8X AGP anyway: ATI 9500 Pro and faster on the ATI side and budget NV30 graphics card and faster on the nVidia side. Your question is turning into a conversion, good job, a sign that you are gaining much in knowledge. Tom's Hardware providing for smarter consumers - it's goal fulfilled!!!

<i>It's your world kid!!!</i>

 

[dukeofcrydee]

If you set Doom III, or a game built on the Doom III engine, to it's highest settings (includes Antialiasing) then the 4X AGP/8X AGP argument is mute because in order to run the game at it's highest settings you would need a card that will contain 8X AGP anyway: ATI 9500 Pro and higher on the ATI side and NV30 and higher on the nVidia side.

Umm, that's what I originally said when I started this thread. That I was planning on getting a GeForceFX card & was curious on 8x compatible mobos.

You said AGP 8x wasn't relevent because games won't use the bandwidth before the AGP port is replaced.

Now you're going back on that and saying newer games will use the increased bandwidth of AGP 8x.

So which is it? Will an AGP 8x card & 8x mobo be usefull for future games or will AGP be replaced by a new port before?

Your question is turning into a conversion, good job, a sign that you are gaining much in knowledge. Tom's Hardware providing for smarter consumers - it's goal fulfilled!!!

Well I think my question wasn't answered and a conversation replaced the question. So instead of turning into a conversation based on knowledge I've gained here, we just...started a conversation.

 

[halkebul]

You said AGP 8x wasn't relevent because games won't use the bandwidth before the AGP port is replaced.

Hello again. This is true.

Now you're going back on that and saying newer games will use the increased bandwidth of AGP 8x.

Nay. I said if you turn up the detail to its <b>HIGHEST</b> settings in DOOM3 then the whole 4X AGP/8X AGP argument <b>IS MUTE</b> because in order to turn up the detail, your graphics card would be an 8X AGP graphics card <b>ANYWAY</b>. And if you had a motherboard that only supported 4X AGP, well that's no problem just run that 8X AGP graphics card at 4X AGP. That is to say, no 4x AGP <b>MAX</b> graphics card which includes GeForce4 Ti 4600 4X AGP version would be able to handle DOOM3 set to its' <b>HIGHEST SETTINGS</b>, but that's not the fault of the lower AGP version, it's the fault of the graphics card's Anti-Aliasing capabilities, GPU, Memory, etc. which has nothing to do with the AGP version. So, GeForce4 Ti 4600 8X AGP version wouldn't be able to handle DOOM3 at max settings either. If you go on and get the GeForce FX, like you stated before, and the Granite Bay Chipset motherboard, which I recommended then this whole argument is pointless. LOL!!! Good conversation though.

<i>It's your world kid!!!</i>

 

[dukeofcrydee]

Nay...(snip)

Ahhh I understand what you're saying now. But that brings up my previous questions again...

I'm wondering if your timetable is accurate. Isn't it also possible that some games will utilize the added bandwidth before the AGP interface is replaced?

 

[halkebul]

Ahhh I understand what you're saying now. But that brings up my previous questions again...

I'm wondering if your timetable is accurate. Isn't it also possible that some games will utilize the added bandwidth before the AGP interface is replaced?

Nay...(snip) once again. LOL!!!


<i>It's your world kid!!!</i>

 

[dukeofcrydee]

Nay...(snip) once again. LOL!!!

hehe, ok, then my next question is: how do you know? Has there been an article on this somewhere? Are the specs of how much data the Doom III alpha pushes out there somewhere?

 

[halkebul]

hehe, ok, then my next question is: how do you know? Has there been an article on this somewhere? Are the specs of how much data the Doom III alpha pushes out there somewhere?

Because there is nothing that will travel along the AGP bus that will require you to be running at 8X AGP. There's no article, just common sense. With all the 4X AGP cards out there, a requirement of 8X AGP is not wise from a software development standpoint. And the DoomIII alpha is grossly unoptimized so no conclusions about hardware requirements can be drawn from it. But if you follow my recommendation of a granite bay chipset motherboard and GeForceFX graphics card then what does it matter. Good conversation - gotta love it!!!


<i>It's your world kid!!!</i>

 

[dukeofcrydee]

Because there is nothing that will travel along the AGP bus that will require you to be running at 8X AGP. There's no article, just common sense. With all the 4X AGP cards out there a requirement of 8X AGP is not wise from a software development standpoint. And the DoomIII alpha is grossly unoptimized.

Well i'm not sure how "common" that info. is, but moving on, what if say, Doom III pushes "X" amount of data under low or medium setttings? Where "X" equals an amount within the AGP 4x range of support.

Now what if at the highest settings, it pushes "Y" amount of data? Where "Y" surpasses the 4x specification, but with an 8x setup, you'd be able to do it.

So in theory, before AGP is replaced, games could support AGP 8x at it's highest levels while a very playable and very very nice looking game is still functional on 4x setups.

But if you follow my recommendation of a granite bay chipset motherboard and GeForceFX graphics card then what does it matter.

Well it matters to me for one reason. And a reason that I never mentioned earlier. My original plan is to get a "MiniPC" based on Shuttle's new case. However that (currently) is AGP 4x only.

So with the GeForceFX announcement, I wanted an AGP 8x MiniTower solution planned out just in case Shuttle doesn't upgrade to 8x by the time I'm ready to buy.

 

[halkebul]

Well i'm not sure how "common" that info. is, but moving on, what if say, Doom III pushes "X" amount of data under low or medium setttings? Where "X" equals an amount within the AGP 4x range of support.

Now what if at the highest settings, it pushes "Y" amount of data? Where "Y" surpasses the 4x specification, but with an 8x setup, you'd be able to do it.

So in theory, before AGP is replaced, games could support AGP 8x at it's highest levels while a very playable and very very nice looking game is still functional on 4x setups.

Oh, I see where you're coming from now. Because of the amount of memory available with the GeForce4FX, less info will be traveling across the AGP bus. That is, it won't have to borrow memory space from the motherboard RAM. So, 8X makes more since for cards with 64MB of memory than cards with more memory.

<i>It's your world kid!!!</i>

 

[halkebul]

Well it matters to me for one reason. And a reason that I never mentioned earlier. My original plan is to get a "MiniPC" based on Shuttle's new case. However that (currently) is AGP 4x only.

So with the GeForceFX announcement, I wanted an AGP 8x MiniTower solution planned out just in case Shuttle doesn't upgrade to 8x by the time I'm ready to buy.

You are a very good questioner! Well, this changes everything. Different motherboard requirements and all. Power requirements are also an issue when running such powerful components in a mini-PC.

<i>It's your world kid!!!</i>

 

[dukeofcrydee]

You are a very good questioner!

Thanks.

Well, this changes everything. Different motherboard requirements and all. Power requirements are also an issue when running such powerful components in a mini-PC.

Exactly. But bumping up the power supply in the case is easy enough for them. Although my main worries, and the biggest reason why I think I'll finally settle on a MiniTower, are the increased heat, the lack of a free PCI slot in the machine due to GeForceFX's bulky form, and the possible pain in the ass of upgrading a FlexATX in the future.

Plus, I'm really looking forward to having 4 80mm fans that are each lit with 4 superbright blue LEDs.

 

[halkebul]

Good points all around. And post your experiences with your mini-PC in this forum if it's not too much trouble. Cheers!

<i>It's your world kid!!!</i>

 

[SoopahMan]

Let's be serious... .

The only time AGP matters in its present state is when loading data into the Video Card; so for example, when you startup a 3D game, AGP speed makes a big difference as all that vertex and texture data travels the AGP bus.

It's important to note though that there are games that stream such data in (for example, in Quake 3 as you move into a new room, the data for drawing that room is sent just before walking in). In these situations faster AGP speed may mean less slow-down (though you can still experience slow-down for other normal reasons, like virtual memory access etc).

Also, as you mentioned, yes, AGP 4x/8x matters, since a mobo that does 4x obviously won't make full use of a graphics card with 8x.

SO

AGP matters, but only very little, as most games don't stress the AGP bus except at initial load of an environment, and that doesn't happen often. If you have other factors to consider, chances are any one of them holds more weight. Lean towards those other factors.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by SoopahMan on 04/16/03 06:19 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[AMD_me]

Do not get a Geforce FX, A Radeon 9700 PRO is almost as good, a 9800Pro beats it, and neither make as much noise or heat up your system nearly as much, leaving more overclockability in both the card and in other parts.

eBay, kick ass!

My 3DMark2001 Score: <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6288493" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6288493</A>
-
I bought from Best Buy once. Once.

 

[FUGGER]

Your score is bullshit, hacked or bugged does not give you the right to put Oppainter in the title and you are not on XS 3D Team.

Grow up some and realize that you are a gimp with a bogus score posted.

<b>"Granted I dont own a P4. But I read enough stuff and waste enough time on forums newsgroups IRC and computer news sites that I proberly know more then if I DID own a P4." -vk2amv</b>