melee druid

Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

Hi,

Can anybody give me some good advice howto build a melee druid?
Information about stat and skill points. Iwould be much obliged if you
could give good url's about builds and so ..

Greetings,

newslord
77 answers Last reply
More about melee druid
  1. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Newslord" <newslord@invalid.com> wrote in message
    news:h8d0f2-8e4.ln1@apschip.schipnet...
    > Hi,
    >
    > Can anybody give me some good advice howto build a melee druid?
    > Information about stat and skill points.

    The most common melee druid is the Fury werewolf. Skills and stats for one
    looks like this:
    Skills:Max Lycanthropy, Fury, Fireclaws, and Oak Sage. Get at least 1 point
    in Summon Grizzly. Get Werewolf high enough to give you best attack speed
    with your weapon(go to this site
    http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/weaponspeed.php?lang=english to check
    what level werewolf you will need for various weapons, and remember,
    werewolf attack speed is based ONLY on IAS on weapon itself and werewolf
    skill level). Depending on your gear, some werewolves only need ONE point in
    Werewolf and then with their +skills gear they reach the max attack speed
    for their weapon of choice. Depending on your weapon and gear, it may
    require a few more points for you, but you should never need more than say
    lvl 10 werewolf regardless. Then put the rest of your points in Fireclaw
    synergies. You can optionally spend a couple points to get a carrion vine(to
    heal you and dispose of corpses), but most wolves don't because they have
    tons of life leech(both from gear and from using Feral Rage, which all Fury
    wolves will have cause it's a pre-req for Fury) and don't want to spend 2
    skill points on a vine. Some wolf druids prefer using dire wolves as their
    summon instead of grizzly so that too is an option, me, I prefer the bear
    though. And some prefer to use Heart of Wolverine over Oak Sage, which gives
    them higher damage and AR, but lower life. I like Oak Sage, and most parties
    prefer it as well, so that would be my recommendation. If you play in
    parties though I WOULD recommend 1 point in Heart of Wolverine though
    because if you party with another druid, he may have an Oak Sage as good
    as(or better than) yours, so that way the party would benefit from 2 spirits
    instead of just one.

    Stats:Enough strength for gear, either enough dex for gear(if using 2 handed
    weapon, which most melee druids do) OR 75% block(if using 1 handed weapon
    and shield), none in energy, and all the rest in vitality.

    Fury takes care of crowds and provides your main attack skill and AR boost.
    Fireclaws gives you an attack to use against physical immune enemies.
    Lycanthropy and Oak Sage gives you a huge life boost, and Grizzly(or Dire
    Wolves) gives you a minion(s) to help take some heat off you. Feral Rage
    provides a huge amount of leech, AND boosts your speed while it's charged,
    but you only need 1 point in it.


    > newslord
  2. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:39:51 +0100, Newslord <newslord@invalid.com>
    wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >Can anybody give me some good advice howto build a melee druid?
    >Information about stat and skill points. Iwould be much obliged if you
    >could give good url's about builds and so ..
    >


    I didnt take my guy as far as many people on here, but i can tell you
    that one of the most fun characters i ever made, was a straight ahead
    full on werewolf guy. Never used any sort of elemental skills at all,
    or bear, just the big wolf, who would run up to bad guys and basicaly
    bitch slap them upside the head.

    I didnt use the ravens too much, altho i did have a few wolf
    companions, and i used a rogue mercenary with heavy +cold arrows, to
    slow them down, and later, some elemental arrow damage. Attack speed
    of weapon for werewolf of paramount importance, as his attack was
    pretty slow. I got lucky and found some kick ass mace that suited him
    well.

    Eventually in hell he got in trouble with the immune to physical
    baddies and i think i was having to switch back to human, hit W key
    and use an elementally charged bow on those guys. Not fun.

    Mostly, tho, an enjoyable character to play. Simple, straight forward.
  3. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "howldog" <lifeisgood@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:mlvr119vapk1cbqj1nn6t3af8413bkgjqc@4ax.com...
    > On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:39:51 +0100, Newslord <newslord@invalid.com>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Hi,
    > >
    > >Can anybody give me some good advice howto build a melee druid?
    > >Information about stat and skill points. Iwould be much obliged if you
    > >could give good url's about builds and so ..
    > >
    >
    >
    > I didnt take my guy as far as many people on here, but i can tell you
    > that one of the most fun characters i ever made, was a straight ahead
    > full on werewolf guy. Never used any sort of elemental skills at all,
    > or bear, just the big wolf, who would run up to bad guys and basicaly
    > bitch slap them upside the head.
    >
    > I didnt use the ravens too much, altho i did have a few wolf
    > companions, and i used a rogue mercenary with heavy +cold arrows, to
    > slow them down, and later, some elemental arrow damage. Attack speed
    > of weapon for werewolf of paramount importance, as his attack was
    > pretty slow. I got lucky and found some kick ass mace that suited him
    > well.
    >
    > Eventually in hell he got in trouble with the immune to physical
    > baddies and i think i was having to switch back to human, hit W key
    > and use an elementally charged bow on those guys. Not fun.
    >
    > Mostly, tho, an enjoyable character to play. Simple, straight forward.
    >
    >
    >
    Hey, did you know you can use a Bow in shifted form?
    You don't shoot arrows, but all the effects of the bow transfer over to
    melee.


    short


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  4. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:51:09 -0500, "short" <shorts@zoominternet.net>
    wrote:


    >>
    >Hey, did you know you can use a Bow in shifted form?
    >You don't shoot arrows, but all the effects of the bow transfer over to
    >melee.
    >


    yeah, but its weird, its like you are running up to the bad guys and
    hitting them in head with the bow. for some bad guys, it was safer to
    stay at a distance and shoot.
  5. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.24.15.08.02.344630@yahoo.com...
    > AFAIK, the IAS contribution of Werewolf goes into exactly the the same
    > pool as the IAS contribution of gear.

    Then you know incorrectly, sorry. IAS from werewolf IS taken into
    consideration for Fury attack speed. IAS from gear is not.

    >As you know, with Fury, the
    > weapon speed matters a lot and depending on that, the IAS contribution
    > from Werewolf and other gear matters little or not at all, as the
    > calc link above shows for various gear.

    The site's calculator is not completely right, it does not discount
    off-weapon IAS increasing speed. The calculator is right about the FPA for
    weapon IAS and werewolf IAS, but not about off-weapon IAS.

    > My point being, that with
    > some IAS from other gear, the IAS contribution of Werewolf would
    > not matter at all in conjunction with Fury, so its AR boost is
    > the only issue to consider when planning the level for Werewolf.

    As I said, you are mistaken. Werewolf level boosts your attack speed. Off
    weapon IAS does not. If you use for example a thundermaul with 60 IAS on the
    weapon itself, and no outside IAS, you will have a 7 frame attack. If you
    use the same weapon, with 110 IAS from gear, you will STILL have a 7 frame
    attack. If you use the same weapon with 0 off weapon IAS, and lvl 9
    werewolf, you will have a 6 frame attack.

    > I disagree with the above for two reasons. First, the contribution of
    > the Carrion vine is incredibly helpful because a) it heals as a percentage
    > of the Druid life ball, and that life ball is very large with Oak Sage
    > and Lycan both active - it's like a weapon mod that
    > gave 100-150 life per kill,

    Which does absolutely nothing when your life ball stays continually full
    cause of your leech+feral rage.

    > and b) the vine disposes of corpses that are then not available for
    Shamans

    Usually not needed. Handy, but not worth 2 skill points.

    > (don't use the vine when partied
    > with a necro or an assassin using DS). Regarding Fire Claws,
    > when one considers that Gimmershreds are available in the trade
    > channels now for a few Pgems, its hard to see where there will be
    > enough skills points for synergies to make the elemental damage of
    > the Fire Claws attack equal the elemental damage
    > from using Fury with Gimmers at any reasonable char level (e.g. < 85).

    Cause if you use Gimmers as a primary weapon, you're using an inferior
    weapon choice. And if you use them on switch, you lose out on the option to
    use CtA.

    > A merc with with decent gear will also be doing a lot more damage than
    > Fire Claws,

    Not to PIs it won't.
  6. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:50:16 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.24.15.08.02.344630@yahoo.com...
    >> AFAIK, the IAS contribution of Werewolf goes into exactly the the same
    >> pool as the IAS contribution of gear.
    >
    > Then you know incorrectly, sorry. IAS from werewolf IS taken into
    > consideration for Fury attack speed. IAS from gear is not.

    I was under the impression that the guide was based on empirical
    tests so I'm surprised. This site also has a Fury weapon
    speed calculator that includes some contribution from non-weapon
    IAS:

    http://students.washington.edu/akrinke/wereform.html

    as does the guide mentioned previously:

    http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/weaponspeed.php?lang=english

    >>As you know, with Fury, the
    >> weapon speed matters a lot and depending on that, the IAS contribution
    >> from Werewolf and other gear matters little or not at all, as the
    >> calc link above shows for various gear.
    >
    > The site's calculator is not completely right, it does not discount
    > off-weapon IAS increasing speed. The calculator is right about the FPA for
    > weapon IAS and werewolf IAS, but not about off-weapon IAS.

    So far it is your word against both of the links. I
    was also under the subjective impression there could be some
    effect from other gear if WW was very low level, but I guess
    I'll have to test it out myself.


    >> My point being, that with
    >> some IAS from other gear, the IAS contribution of Werewolf would
    >> not matter at all in conjunction with Fury, so its AR boost is
    >> the only issue to consider when planning the level for Werewolf.
    >
    > As I said, you are mistaken. Werewolf level boosts your attack speed. Off
    > weapon IAS does not. If you use for example a thundermaul with 60 IAS on the
    > weapon itself, and no outside IAS, you will have a 7 frame attack. If you
    > use the same weapon, with 110 IAS from gear, you will STILL have a 7 frame
    > attack. If you use the same weapon with 0 off weapon IAS, and lvl 9
    > werewolf, you will have a 6 frame attack.

    Thanks for the clarification. Both of those sites claim it is
    6 frames with the lvl 1 Werewolf in your example.

    But even assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct,
    the larger point is that with common levels of +skill gear (e.g.
    4 from Jalals, 1 or 2 from armor, etc.) the bonus from WW will
    be enough to max the Fury speed that is possible with a given
    weapon so the AR from WW is the issue to consider when deciding
    to use more skill points (assuming one is only using Fury -
    you suggest using 1 pt.+skills Feral Rage as well which would
    make me want more AR from WW).

    >> I disagree with the above for two reasons. First, the contribution of
    >> the Carrion vine is incredibly helpful because a) it heals as a percentage
    >> of the Druid life ball, and that life ball is very large with Oak Sage
    >> and Lycan both active - it's like a weapon mod that
    >> gave 100-150 life per kill,
    >
    > Which does absolutely nothing when your life ball stays continually full
    > cause of your leech+feral rage.

    I don't normally bother with Feral Rage because of the need
    to boost its AR separately and the damage lost over the time
    to charge it up. In any case, more life is always good.


    >> and b) the vine disposes of corpses that are then not available for
    > Shamans
    >
    > Usually not needed. Handy, but not worth 2 skill points.

    It can be a life saver. 2 skill points isn't much. Same
    logic as the Barb getting Leap Attack.

    >> (don't use the vine when partied
    >> with a necro or an assassin using DS). Regarding Fire Claws,
    >> when one considers that Gimmershreds are available in the trade
    >> channels now for a few Pgems, its hard to see where there will be
    >> enough skills points for synergies to make the elemental damage of
    >> the Fire Claws attack equal the elemental damage
    >> from using Fury with Gimmers at any reasonable char level (e.g. < 85).
    >
    > Cause if you use Gimmers as a primary weapon, you're using an inferior
    > weapon choice. And if you use them on switch, you lose out on the option to
    > use CtA.

    I was only considering Gimmers for the switch. I've never had a
    CtA which is relatively more expensive gear, the point of which is
    to add BO for yet more life, which you indicated wasn't needed
    in the paragraph above when we were talking about the contribution
    of the vine.

    >> A merc with with decent gear will also be doing a lot more damage than
    >> Fire Claws,
    >
    > Not to PIs it won't.

    Right, but the PIs wouldn't be a problem if using Gimmers. I was
    speaking above about areas with OKs.
  7. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.24.22.46.58.184989@yahoo.com...
    > I was under the impression that the guide was based on empirical
    > tests so I'm surprised. This site also has a Fury weapon
    > speed calculator that includes some contribution from non-weapon
    > IAS:
    >
    > http://students.washington.edu/akrinke/wereform.html

    Yes, it shows that non-weapon, non IAS skill IAS adds very little to the
    werewolf speed. Choose maul as your weapon, and put in the correct stats.
    The base speed of a thunder maul according to Arreat Summit is 20. This site
    asks you to put in the NEGATIVE of that, which would be -20, so select that
    for base speed. EBotD has 60 IAS, so put that in next. Put in werewolf lvl 1
    and you get 7 frames. Add 40 off-weapon IAS(reasonable amount, 20 from ammy
    such as Highlords and 20 from gloves perhaps) and you're still at 7 frames.
    Now, put the same numbers in, leave off-weapon IAS at 0, and put in werewolf
    lvl 4. That gives you 6 frames(which is the maximum attack speed for an
    eBotD tmaul).

    > as does the guide mentioned previously:
    >
    > http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/weaponspeed.php?lang=english

    This one is well documented to be incorrect when it comes to wereform
    speeds.

    > Thanks for the clarification. Both of those sites claim it is
    > 6 frames with the lvl 1 Werewolf in your example.

    No they do not. They both claim 7 frames if you put in the information
    correctly. I'm looking at the first link at this very second, with the
    choices filled in being weapon type-maul, -20 base speed, 60 weapon IAS, 0
    non-weapon IAS, and lvl 1 werewolf, it shows 7 frames.

    > But even assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct,
    > the larger point is that with common levels of +skill gear (e.g.
    > 4 from Jalals, 1 or 2 from armor, etc.) the bonus from WW will
    > be enough to max the Fury speed

    Umm, that was my point? I said, get enough WW to max your Fury speed, which
    can usually be accomplished with lvl 1 werewolf and some +skills, and then
    don't spend any more points there.

    > that is possible with a given
    > weapon so the AR from WW is the issue to consider when deciding
    > to use more skill points (assuming one is only using Fury -
    > you suggest using 1 pt.+skills Feral Rage as well which would
    > make me want more AR from WW).

    WW gives very little AR, not enough to warrant adding skill points. To
    illustrate, I checked my druid. If I add 1 shape shifting grand charm to his
    inventory, which boosts both his werewolf level AND his Fury level(which
    also boosts his AR), he gains ~100 AR. And with lvl 1 feral rage, lvl 1
    werewolf, and his gear, he has 6.5k Feral Rage AR, ~9k Fury AR...that is
    plenty for PvM play.

    > I don't normally bother with Feral Rage because of the need
    > to boost its AR separately

    There is no such need, get 1 point in it and a few +skills gear(Jalals alone
    gives +4 as you mentioned). And I only bother with it to boost run speed, I
    don't need the leech from it either.

    > and the damage lost over the time to charge it up.

    I consider the increased movement speed for it, you may not. I'm rather
    fanatical about fast movement.

    > In any case, more life is always good.

    This is correct...but there's no need for a vine as your life ball will
    generally stay full anyways, even without Feral Rage. I use FR for the speed
    boost, the leech isn't imporant to me as I have plenty on my own. The vine
    doesn't give me more life.

    > >> and b) the vine disposes of corpses that are then not available for
    > > Shamans
    > >
    > > Usually not needed. Handy, but not worth 2 skill points.
    >
    > It can be a life saver. 2 skill points isn't much. Same
    > logic as the Barb getting Leap Attack.

    A barb can use leap attack to reach enemies(such as Meph) that you would
    have to take a possibly long detour(and possibly engage other enemies) to
    get to, or to leap OUT of a crowd if you get surrounded. A vine will do
    neither of those things.

    > I was only considering Gimmers for the switch. I've never had a
    > CtA which is relatively more expensive gear, the point of which is
    > to add BO for yet more life, which you indicated wasn't needed
    > in the paragraph above when we were talking about the contribution
    > of the vine.

    You said more life is always good. Let's say by some very weird means my
    life pool of 2000 takes a 1950 damage hit and drops to 50. A vine could give
    me 250 life or so, IF it has a corpse and IF it eats the corpse AND if it
    doesn't get killed. Whereas a CtA boosts my life to say 4000, then, after
    that weird 1950 damage hit, my life is at 2050. Which is the safer option
    for you? And of course, CtA helps your party mates, your merc, and your
    grizzly/wolves and spirit, whereas a vine would do absolutely nothing for
    them.

    > Right, but the PIs wouldn't be a problem if using Gimmers. I was
    > speaking above about areas with OKs.

    Actually, I must admit you lost me on that one. I didn't catch using Gimmers
    and having a strong merc has to do with OKs? If you get IMed during a Gimmer
    fury you'll be just as hurt if you got IMed with furying with an eBotD
    tmaul.
  8. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:38:49 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.24.22.46.58.184989@yahoo.com...
    >> I was under the impression that the guide was based on empirical
    >> tests so I'm surprised. This site also has a Fury weapon
    >> speed calculator that includes some contribution from non-weapon
    >> IAS:
    >>
    >> http://students.washington.edu/akrinke/wereform.html
    >
    > Yes, it shows that non-weapon, non IAS skill IAS adds very little to the
    > werewolf speed.

    It almost splits the difference between your claim that off weapon
    IAS adds nothing and my supposition that WW speed is added to Fury
    in the same way as off weapon IAS.

    >Choose maul as your weapon, and put in the correct
    > stats. The base speed of a thunder maul according to Arreat Summit is
    > 20. This site asks you to put in the NEGATIVE of that, which would be
    > -20, so select that for base speed. EBotD has 60 IAS, so put that in
    > next. Put in werewolf lvl 1 and you get 7 frames. Add 40 off-weapon
    > IAS(reasonable amount, 20 from ammy such as Highlords and 20 from gloves
    > perhaps) and you're still at 7

    Thanks for re-arranging your original example every so carefully. :)

    The chart shows that with th level 1 WW the chart for the above
    situation shows that you reach the 6 frame bp at 45% off weapon
    IAS.:)

    >> as does the guide mentioned previously:
    >>
    >> http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/weaponspeed.php?lang=english
    >
    > This one is well documented to be incorrect when it comes to wereform
    > speeds.

    I haven't see any such "documentation", and, in fact the two guides
    give the *exact same* break points for your example cases given
    so far. Can you tell me where they differ?


    >> Thanks for the clarification. Both of those sites claim it is 6
    >> frames with the lvl 1 Werewolf in your example.
    >
    > No they do not. They both claim 7 frames if you put in the information
    > correctly. I'm looking at the first link at this very second, with the
    > choices filled in being weapon type-maul, -20 base speed, 60 weapon IAS,
    > 0 non-weapon IAS, and lvl 1 werewolf, it shows 7 frames.

    Your original example that I was responding to was the situation of
    level 1 WW with 110% off weapon IAS. They both give 6 frames
    for that situation as you described it.



    >> But even assuming for the sake of argument that you are correct, the
    >> larger point is that with common levels of +skill gear (e.g. 4 from
    >> Jalals, 1 or 2 from armor, etc.) the bonus from WW will be enough to
    >> max the Fury speed
    >
    > Umm, that was my point? I said, get enough WW to max your Fury speed,
    > which can usually be accomplished with lvl 1 werewolf and some +skills,
    > and then don't spend any more points there.

    And I noted that whether or not more WW points are required will
    depend on AR, which in turn depends on stat allocation and gear.
    Most people using a 2 handed weapon without great gear are going
    to want a few more points there.

    >> that is possible with a given
    >> weapon so the AR from WW is the issue to consider when deciding to use
    >> more skill points (assuming one is only using Fury - you suggest using
    >> 1 pt.+skills Feral Rage as well which would make me want more AR from
    >> WW).
    >
    > WW gives very little AR, not enough to warrant adding skill points.

    It gives 15% AR boost per additional level, which is twice what
    Fury gives per extra level.


    >To
    > illustrate, I checked my druid. If I add 1 shape shifting grand charm to
    > his inventory, which boosts both his werewolf level AND his Fury
    > level(which also boosts his AR), he gains ~100 AR. And with lvl 1 feral
    > rage, lvl 1 werewolf, and his gear, he has 6.5k Feral Rage AR, ~9k Fury
    > AR...that is plenty for PvM play.

    Which shows mainly that your char is high level, presumably already
    Patriarch/Guardian and has some great gear. I agree that 6.5K is
    plenty AR for PVM play.


    >> I don't normally bother with Feral Rage because of the need to boost
    >> its AR separately
    >
    > There is no such need, get 1 point in it and a few +skills gear(Jalals
    > alone gives +4 as you mentioned). And I only bother with it to boost run
    > speed, I don't need the leech from it either.
    >
    >> and the damage lost over the time to charge it up.
    >
    > I consider the increased movement speed for it, you may not. I'm rather
    > fanatical about fast movement.

    I recently found a Pally GC with +Offensive Aura and +7%FRW.
    Do you think the FRW significantly adds to the trade value in
    this case?


    >> In any case, more life is always good.
    >
    > This is correct...but there's no need for a vine as your life ball will
    > generally stay full anyways, even without Feral Rage. I use FR for the
    > speed boost, the leech isn't imporant to me as I have plenty on my own.
    > The vine doesn't give me more life.

    Without super gear, I find that it often means the different between
    having to gulp potions and not having to when fighting in a crowd.

    >> >> and b) the vine disposes of corpses that are then not available for
    >> > Shamans
    >> >
    >> > Usually not needed. Handy, but not worth 2 skill points.
    >>
    >> It can be a life saver. 2 skill points isn't much. Same logic as the
    >> Barb getting Leap Attack.
    >
    > A barb can use leap attack to reach enemies(such as Meph) that you would
    > have to take a possibly long detour(and possibly engage other enemies)
    > to get to, or to leap OUT of a crowd if you get surrounded. A vine will
    > do neither of those things.

    Getting through the tombs with the Mummy shamans is a lot easier
    with the Wolf than the Barb, because, among other things, the
    latter has to re-kill so many skeletons to reach the mummys.

    >> I was only considering Gimmers for the switch. I've never had a CtA
    >> which is relatively more expensive gear, the point of which is to add
    >> BO for yet more life, which you indicated wasn't needed in the
    >> paragraph above when we were talking about the contribution of the
    >> vine.
    >
    > You said more life is always good.

    Right, it's good whether it comes from the vine or from CtA.

    > Let's say by some very weird means my
    > life pool of 2000 takes a 1950 damage hit and drops to 50. A vine could
    > give me 250 life or so, IF it has a corpse and IF it eats the corpse AND
    > if it doesn't get killed. Whereas a CtA boosts my life to say 4000,
    > then, after that weird 1950 damage hit, my life is at 2050. Which is the
    > safer option for you? And of course, CtA helps your party mates, your
    > merc, and your grizzly/wolves and spirit, whereas a vine would do
    > absolutely nothing for them.

    Of course I would be happy to trade the effect of the vine for
    the CtA but that isn't a relevant option. The question rather
    is whether the two points in the vine are better than spending
    them on Fire Claws ore something else.


    >> Right, but the PIs wouldn't be a problem if using Gimmers. I was
    >> speaking above about areas with OKs.
    >
    > Actually, I must admit you lost me on that one. I didn't catch using
    > Gimmers and having a strong merc has to do with OKs? If you get IMed
    > during a Gimmer fury you'll be just as hurt if you got IMed with furying
    > with an eBotD tmaul.

    The last assertion is not true in general (there are certainly some
    number (greater than 1) of individual IM'd Fury swings that would kill a
    Fury wolf with an eBotD Thunder Maul and not one with Gimmers) , but let's
    not go down that path again. I'm agreeing with you hear that something
    other than Fury would be nice to have for dealing with IMs, while
    disagreeing that it is really useful for this build and PIs. Because
    of the way the skill tree works out though, it would better use
    Rabies with the Gimmers for dealing with the OKs.
  9. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.25.04.42.54.619790@yahoo.com...

    > The chart shows that with th level 1 WW the chart for the above
    > situation shows that you reach the 6 frame bp at 45% off weapon
    > IAS.:)

    Which is incorrect, as I've said. Wereform IAS works much like the IAS a
    paladin gets from Fanatacism.

    > I haven't see any such "documentation",

    Try sites like the D2 gameplay forum at Arreat Summit and Lurker Lounge.

    > and, in fact the two guides
    > give the *exact same* break points for your example cases given
    > so far. Can you tell me where they differ?

    They don't appear to differ, I wasn't sure if they did cause I haven't used
    the other one till now.

    > And I noted that whether or not more WW points are required will
    > depend on AR, which in turn depends on stat allocation and gear.
    > Most people using a 2 handed weapon without great gear are going
    > to want a few more points there.

    I have "great gear" I suppose, but none of it except the weapon and the
    Jalals(which is pretty standard for weredruids) adds anything to my AR.

    > It gives 15% AR boost per additional level, which is twice what
    > Fury gives per extra level.

    Who's maxing Fury for AR? It's maxed for the damage.

    > Which shows mainly that your char is high level, presumably already
    > Patriarch/Guardian

    Yes, he has finished hell. Doesn't matter though, as his AR has been
    sufficient pretty much since the beginning.

    > and has some great gear.

    Well he does, but since almost none of it boosts AR, that doesn't really
    make much of a difference.

    > I agree that 6.5K is plenty AR for PVM play.
    >
    >
    > >> I don't normally bother with Feral Rage because of the need to boost
    > >> its AR separately
    > >
    > > There is no such need, get 1 point in it and a few +skills gear(Jalals
    > > alone gives +4 as you mentioned). And I only bother with it to boost run
    > > speed, I don't need the leech from it either.
    > >
    > >> and the damage lost over the time to charge it up.
    > >

    > I recently found a Pally GC with +Offensive Aura and +7%FRW.
    > Do you think the FRW significantly adds to the trade value in
    > this case?

    No, but honestly, neither would anything else. A 40+ life one would be the
    most valuable, and you could be hard pressed to find a buyer even for that
    one. Offensive Aura GCs are not desired generally, as the 2 most common
    cookie cutter paladins don't need them(Fana zealots can get more damage by
    using max damage/AR charms in place of an off. aura GC, and hammerdins get
    more damage from combat GCs than from off. aura ones). They do benefit
    cold/lightning zealots(and the r/w would add a small boost in value to
    them), but since those builds are fairly uncommon unfortunately...

    > Without super gear, I find that it often means the different between
    > having to gulp potions and not having to when fighting in a crowd.

    Well, you could get a pair of Dracs and your problems will be solved...

    > Getting through the tombs with the Mummy shamans is a lot easier
    > with the Wolf than the Barb, because, among other things, the
    > latter has to re-kill so many skeletons to reach the mummys.

    Except a barb can just leap or WW to the mummy directly and doesn't have to
    rekill the skeletons at ALL, cause he can kill the mummies first.

    > Right, it's good whether it comes from the vine or from CtA.

    But CtA gives you a larger pool, the vine does not. With CtA, you can
    survive hits that might kill you, vine or no vine(cause really, with as big
    a life pool as a druid will have, you have to be taking some pretty heavy
    damage to be at risk in the first place).

    > Of course I would be happy to trade the effect of the vine for
    > the CtA but that isn't a relevant option. The question rather
    > is whether the two points in the vine are better than spending
    > them on Fire Claws ore something else.

    And I say it's not.

    > The last assertion is not true in general (there are certainly some
    > number (greater than 1) of individual IM'd Fury swings that would kill a
    > Fury wolf with an eBotD Thunder Maul and not one with Gimmers),

    Honestly, think about it-someone posted here awhile back that the level of
    an okie's IM returns 400% damage. With Gimmers and Fury, you'll be dealing
    in the 1000 physical damage per hit range, and that's assuming you don't
    have any deadly strike that triggers and you're not attacking a Decreped or
    Amped enemy. Return 400% of that, and you take damage in the range of 4000
    damage per swing. With Battle Orders and maxed Oak Sage, you may have that
    high life, and even then you'll only be saved if you get IMed on the very
    last swing. With no battle orders, you're just as hurt with 1 swing
    regardless of whether you have Gimmers or an eBotD. Of course, there is the
    druid bug that can save you if you're quick, regardless of what weapon you
    have as well...

    > I'm agreeing with you hear that something other than Fury would be nice to
    have for dealing with IMs, while disagreeing that it is really useful for
    this build and PIs.

    Unfortunately, wolves have NO real counter to IM, they basically have to
    rely on careful swings(I usually use single hit attacks in IM areas, so I'm
    less likely to get caught in an attack animation), and hope they have quick
    enough fingers to make use of the druid glitch in case they DO get IMed in
    mid swing.

    > Because of the way the skill tree works out though, it would better use
    > Rabies with the Gimmers for dealing with the OKs.

    Rabies doesn't help much either I'm afraid. My wolf is actually a Rabies
    wolf over a fire wolf, and he deals poison damage in the 21k range, but it
    still takes forever for enemies to die from it unfortunately. And the
    initial bite still does a sizeable portion of physical damage as well, I'm
    afraid, so an IMed rabies bite will hurt as much as an IMed Feral Rage
    swing. It is another anti-PI option, but it's also very slow, even in very
    high damage ranges, and will STILL hurt you bad if you bite something while
    IMed. That's one thing I hate about melee druids, they have NO skill they
    can safely use while IMed, the other melee builds do! Barbs have Berserk,
    pallies can use throwing weapons/bows, and still have a high damage(and thus
    also leech) and AR cause of Fana, kicker assassins can switch to Blade
    Fury(since most kicksins use a setup similar to what goes into a real
    BFsin), javazons(not totally a melee build, but ahh well) have Lightning
    Fury...druids have nothing. All their melee skills do physical damage,
    including Fire Claws and Rabies. Their ranged attacks, the elemental skills
    like Tornado and Volcano, require a very big skillpoint investment, more
    than a melee druid can spare, and generally require very different gear
    setups too. And they have no skills to boost their damage or AR while using
    bows/throwing weapons. Rather irritating!
  10. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:43:50 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.25.04.42.54.619790@yahoo.com...
    >
    >> The chart shows that with th level 1 WW the chart for the above
    >> situation shows that you reach the 6 frame bp at 45% off weapon
    >> IAS.:)
    >
    > Which is incorrect, as I've said. Wereform IAS works much like the IAS a
    > paladin gets from Fanatacism.

    I know you've said that, but so far I've only seen you say so on
    one side vs. the most detailed information I can find posted
    on the net on the other side.

    >> And I noted that whether or not more WW points are required will
    >> depend on AR, which in turn depends on stat allocation and gear.
    >> Most people using a 2 handed weapon without great gear are going
    >> to want a few more points there.
    >
    > I have "great gear" I suppose, but none of it except the weapon and the
    > Jalals(which is pretty standard for weredruids) adds anything to my AR.

    Huh? You don't have any other plus skills boosting the level
    of WW and Fury/Feral Rage? You don't have anything like a
    Ravenfrost (admittedly cheap for a non-perfect one)? You
    don't have any charms that add to Dex or AR? How the
    hell do you get 6.5K AR from 1 skill point in WW and 1 in
    Feral Rage without a high +skill level?


    >> It gives 15% AR boost per additional level, which is twice what
    >> Fury gives per extra level.
    >
    > Who's maxing Fury for AR? It's maxed for the damage.

    Both are required. The point, obviously, is that WW is
    the strongest AR adding skill the Druid has.

    >> Which shows mainly that your char is high level, presumably already
    >> Patriarch/Guardian
    >
    > Yes, he has finished hell. Doesn't matter though, as his AR has been
    > sufficient pretty much since the beginning.

    Then it comes from having great gear.

    >> and has some great gear.
    >
    > Well he does, but since almost none of it boosts AR, that doesn't really
    > make much of a difference.

    You seem to be claiming that you can get plenty high
    AR from just one point allocated to WW and 1 pt. to Feral Rage and that
    you do this at a medium char level and and it isn't based on your gear
    making extra large contributions to your AR (e.g. by providing a high
    level of plus skills). Here are the facts:

    The base AR of a Druid is Dexterity*5 - 30. If a lvl 70
    char uses 2 Dex per lvl, which is more than most Druids do,
    he would have a base AR of only 670. WW adds 50% AR at
    lvl 1 and 15% more per lvl. Feral Rage adds 20% AR at lvl 1
    and 10% more per lvl. So, for example, your char could
    get to 3.5K AR with +14 to ShapeShifting skills. If you
    were wearing a nice RavenFrost with +20Dex and +200AR
    then your base AR would jump to 970, and getting to
    a respectable 3.5K AR would still require +8 to
    ShapeShifting (which is still nice gear). Its easy
    to see how to do this with nice stuff like Maras etc.,
    but not easy to see with mid level gear.


    >> I agree that 6.5K is plenty AR for PVM play.

    I calculate above for just getting to a modest 3.5K AR.
    Getting to 6.5K would with that skill point allocation
    would really take some special gear.

    >>
    >> >> I don't normally bother with Feral Rage because of the need to boost
    >> >> its AR separately
    >> >
    >> > There is no such need, get 1 point in it and a few +skills gear(Jalals
    >> > alone gives +4 as you mentioned). And I only bother with it to boost run
    >> > speed, I don't need the leech from it either.
    >> >
    >> >> and the damage lost over the time to charge it up.
    >> >
    >
    >> I recently found a Pally GC with +Offensive Aura and +7%FRW.
    >> Do you think the FRW significantly adds to the trade value in
    >> this case?
    >
    > No, but honestly, neither would anything else. A 40+ life one would be the
    > most valuable, and you could be hard pressed to find a buyer even for that
    > one. Offensive Aura GCs are not desired generally, as the 2 most common
    > cookie cutter paladins don't need them(Fana zealots can get more damage by
    > using max damage/AR charms in place of an off. aura GC, and hammerdins get
    > more damage from combat GCs than from off. aura ones).

    I understood they are not worth nearly so much as Pally Combat GCs.
    A website I saw rated a plain one at Pul. I'm just wondering if
    the FRW mod really adds to that.


    >> Getting through the tombs with the Mummy shamans is a lot easier
    >> with the Wolf than the Barb, because, among other things, the
    >> latter has to re-kill so many skeletons to reach the mummys.
    >
    > Except a barb can just leap or WW to the mummy directly and doesn't have to
    > rekill the skeletons at ALL, cause he can kill the mummies first.

    I used to do that a lot in 1.09, but its more risky in 1.10.
    The crowds are bigger and easier to get stuck in without enough
    mana to leap back to safety. Also, it happens a lot that one
    can't jump directly to mummy on the other side of a doorway.


    >> Right, it's good whether it comes from the vine or from CtA.
    >
    > But CtA gives you a larger pool, the vine does not. With CtA, you can
    > survive hits that might kill you, vine or no vine(cause really, with as big
    > a life pool as a druid will have, you have to be taking some pretty heavy
    > damage to be at risk in the first place).
    >
    >> Of course I would be happy to trade the effect of the vine for
    >> the CtA but that isn't a relevant option. The question rather
    >> is whether the two points in the vine are better than spending
    >> them on Fire Claws ore something else.
    >
    > And I say it's not.

    And I say that Fury with Gimmers gives a lot more damage to PIs
    without using any additional skill points than you will get with Fire
    Claws as a secondary skill. You are complaining about putting two
    skill points to get Carrion Vine and you have to spend 2 skill points
    before you can even put one into Fire Claws, which itself isn't even
    useful at low levels and is hardly useful even maxed without yet
    more points in synergies.


    >> The last assertion is not true in general (there are certainly some
    >> number (greater than 1) of individual IM'd Fury swings that would kill
    >> a Fury wolf with an eBotD Thunder Maul and not one with Gimmers),
    >
    > Honestly, think about it-someone posted here awhile back that the level
    > of an okie's IM returns 400% damage. With Gimmers and Fury, you'll be
    > dealing in the 1000 physical damage per hit range,

    Shrug. I've survived a number of times with similar weapons
    and only a bit of damage reduce gear. That probably means the
    returned damage is often much less than 400% or the OK itself
    has significant physical resistance. Note that the minimum
    physical damage on Gimmers is only around 50.


    > Unfortunately, wolves have NO real counter to IM, they basically have to
    > rely on careful swings(I usually use single hit attacks in IM areas, so
    > I'm less likely to get caught in an attack animation), and hope they
    > have quick enough fingers to make use of the druid glitch in case they
    > DO get IMed in mid swing.

    Single swings and just being careful to keep minions and mercs
    between you and the OK pack. That works fine for clearing
    an area once to get a quest. Obviously one wouldn't want to
    rely on that technique for serial XP or MF runs. Among the
    new Ladder runewords it would be worth investigating Voice
    of Reason as a low cost option and Ice as a high cost one
    for the Druid since OKs are generally immune to Fire and rarely
    immune to Cold.


    >> Because of the way the skill tree works out though, it would better use
    >> Rabies with the Gimmers for dealing with the OKs.
    >
    > Rabies doesn't help much either I'm afraid. My wolf is actually a Rabies
    > wolf over a fire wolf, and he deals poison damage in the 21k range, but
    > it still takes forever for enemies to die from it unfortunately. And the
    > initial bite still does a sizeable portion of physical damage as well,
    > I'm afraid, so an IMed rabies bite will hurt as much as an IMed Feral
    > Rage swing.

    Huh? Feral Rage is a minium 50% and more reasonably 75% increased
    physical damage, so Rabies is clearly safer. Also, I'm talking
    about using the elemental damage from the Gimmers to kill.
    I am certainly quick enough not to die to IM with the Gimmers/Rabies
    combo and an Oak Sage using Wolf.

    My situation is that I typically have builds/gear combinations that
    would suffer without an Act 2 merc and I go through OK areas slowly
    because I let the merc kill and try to save him as often as I can
    by tp'ing away as soon as he has swirlies. So I don't die to IM
    in practice, but since CS and WSK are areas that would be nice
    to do runs, it limits the overall utility of the Fury builds (actually
    all pure melee for that matter).
  11. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.25.14.41.58.426043@yahoo.com...

    > I know you've said that, but so far I've only seen you say so on
    > one side vs. the most detailed information I can find posted
    > on the net on the other side.

    As I said, ask around on LL and B.net's D2 gameplay forums.

    > Huh? You don't have any other plus skills boosting the level
    > of WW and Fury/Feral Rage?

    I have some plus skills, but as I mentioned, they add very little AR. A
    druid using max/ar charms would have more than I would.

    > You don't have anything like a Ravenfrost (admittedly cheap for a
    non-perfect one)?

    Ahh yeah, forgot that, I do have a rather low Ravenfrost.

    > You don't have any charms that add to Dex or AR?

    Most of my charms are resist and life charms, a few elemental damage ones as
    well. I may at best have 1 or 2 small charms that add max/AR, and none of
    those are perfect 3/20 ones.

    > How the hell do you get 6.5K AR from 1 skill point in WW and 1 in
    > Feral Rage without a high +skill level?

    The skill level is decent, I've got a few +shapeshifting GCs(Rabies is
    boosted very higehly from +skills, so I have a little higher than most
    wolves), but since +skills adds(as I tested) doesn't add that much it's not
    a huge boost.

    > Both are required. The point, obviously, is that WW is
    > the strongest AR adding skill the Druid has.

    And the point obviously is that it adds so little that putting points in it
    is a total waste.

    > You seem to be claiming that you can get plenty high
    > AR from just one point allocated to WW and 1 pt. to Feral Rage

    Yes, and a few pieces of common, easily obtainable gear. Jalals(which is
    pretty much standard on melee druids) adds +4 right there(that's lvl 5 WW
    and lvl 5 Feral just from the helm) plus 20% AR by itself. Ravenfrost will
    add a little as well.

    > If you were wearing a nice RavenFrost with +20Dex and +200AR
    > then your base AR would jump to 970, and getting to
    > a respectable 3.5K AR would still require +8 to
    > ShapeShifting (which is still nice gear).

    +8 shifting is not expensive to get. +4 from Jalals alone and +20% AR as
    well. For amulets, it depends. Maras gives +2, Highlords +1, a decent rare
    can give +1-2, or even Eye of Etlich gives +1. Toss in a couple shifter
    GCs(these are cheap, cause nobody wants 'em) or a couple 80-110 AR GC and
    problem solved.

    > I calculate above for just getting to a modest 3.5K AR.
    > Getting to 6.5K would with that skill point allocation
    > would really take some special gear.

    The standard Jalals(+4 skills, 20% AR), plus Verdungos(no AR), Carrion
    Wind(no AR), low end AR Ravenfrost(17-18 dex, 170 or so AR but not "special
    gear"), Bramble(No AR), Dracs(no AR), Gore Riders(no AR), Maras(+2 skills,
    +5 dex), and the one special piece of AR boosting gear I've mentioned, eBotD
    tmaul(30 dex, 50% AR). And a handful of plain shifter charms. Weapon switch,
    a CtA scourge and Splendor shield.

    > I understood they are not worth nearly so much as Pally Combat GCs.
    > A website I saw rated a plain one at Pul.

    You won't get a Pul for a plain off. aura GC, I've tried. My top offer was 1
    Pul for two off. aura ones with second mods.

    > I'm just wondering if the FRW mod really adds to that.

    2 off aura ones with FRW would be more likely to get you a Pul than 2 plain
    ones.

    > And I say that Fury with Gimmers gives a lot more damage to PIs
    > without using any additional skill points than you will get with Fire
    > Claws as a secondary skill. You are complaining about putting two
    > skill points to get Carrion Vine and you have to spend 2 skill points
    > before you can even put one into Fire Claws, which itself isn't even
    > useful at low levels and is hardly useful even maxed without yet
    > more points in synergies.

    Actually, Fireclaws can get up to 3k or so fire damage maxed with a few
    points in synergies.

    > Shrug. I've survived a number of times with similar weapons
    > and only a bit of damage reduce gear. That probably means the
    > returned damage is often much less than 400% or the OK itself
    > has significant physical resistance. Note that the minimum
    > physical damage on Gimmers is only around 50.

    Only around 50 base, but boosted by strength, Fury, etc and it goes up a
    fair amount.

    > Single swings and just being careful to keep minions and mercs
    > between you and the OK pack.

    How does that help? The AoE of the curse is big enough that if you're
    anywhere near the minions you'll be caught too. Plus you don't always know
    where the okies are, since they can curse you from off screen.

    > since OKs are generally immune to Fire and rarely immune to Cold.

    Actually, okies are never immune to fire unless they are a boss one, and are
    always immune to cold. Abyss knights are the other way around.
  12. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:58:27 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.25.14.41.58.426043@yahoo.com...

    >> Huh? You don't have any other plus skills boosting the level
    >> of WW and Fury/Feral Rage?
    >
    > I have some plus skills, but as I mentioned, they add very little AR. A
    > druid using max/ar charms would have more than I would.
    >
    >> You don't have anything like a Ravenfrost (admittedly cheap for a
    > non-perfect one)?
    >
    > Ahh yeah, forgot that, I do have a rather low Ravenfrost.
    >
    >> You don't have any charms that add to Dex or AR?
    >
    > Most of my charms are resist and life charms, a few elemental damage ones as
    > well. I may at best have 1 or 2 small charms that add max/AR, and none of
    > those are perfect 3/20 ones.
    >
    >> How the hell do you get 6.5K AR from 1 skill point in WW and 1 in
    >> Feral Rage without a high +skill level?

    > The skill level is decent, I've got a few +shapeshifting GCs(Rabies is
    > boosted very higehly from +skills, so I have a little higher than most
    > wolves), but since +skills adds(as I tested) doesn't add that much it's not
    > a huge boost.

    So you have special gear that boosts your AR.
    We've agreed from the outset that there is no reason to boost
    WW for speed and I claim the only issue is AR which depends
    on gear. Someone with just mid level gear, will probably
    need some more points in WW, especially if they want to
    use any skills other than Fury. If they are walking
    around with +10 to ShapeShifting then that is clearly
    a different situation, and additional skill points in WW
    are not required unless they are going with a 2h weapon and
    a low dex build.


    >> I calculate above for just getting to a modest 3.5K AR.
    >> Getting to 6.5K would with that skill point allocation
    >> would really take some special gear.
    >
    > The standard Jalals(+4 skills, 20% AR), plus Verdungos(no AR), Carrion
    > Wind(no AR), low end AR Ravenfrost(17-18 dex, 170 or so AR but not "special
    > gear"), Bramble(No AR), Dracs(no AR), Gore Riders(no AR), Maras(+2 skills,
    > +5 dex), and the one special piece of AR boosting gear I've mentioned, eBotD
    > tmaul(30 dex, 50% AR). And a handful of plain shifter charms. Weapon switch,
    > a CtA scourge and Splendor shield.

    Having a Maras, a BotD weapon, and "a handful" of skillers counts
    for me as special gear.


    >> And I say that Fury with Gimmers gives a lot more damage to PIs
    >> without using any additional skill points than you will get with Fire
    >> Claws as a secondary skill. You are complaining about putting two
    >> skill points to get Carrion Vine and you have to spend 2 skill points
    >> before you can even put one into Fire Claws, which itself isn't even
    >> useful at low levels and is hardly useful even maxed without yet
    >> more points in synergies.
    >
    > Actually, Fireclaws can get up to 3k or so fire damage maxed with a few
    > points in synergies.

    Fireclaws as a main build with Fury as an alternative is
    pretty reasonable. But the above is once again written
    from the perspective of somebody with very high plus skills.
    If we were only talking about a conventional number like
    +6 to Shapeshifting then it would take 22 pts. to max
    Fire Claws and yet another 30 in a synergy to reach 3K damage.


    >> Shrug. I've survived a number of times with similar weapons
    >> and only a bit of damage reduce gear. That probably means the
    >> returned damage is often much less than 400% or the OK itself
    >> has significant physical resistance. Note that the minimum
    >> physical damage on Gimmers is only around 50.
    >
    > Only around 50 base, but boosted by strength, Fury, etc and it goes up a
    > fair amount.
    >
    >> Single swings and just being careful to keep minions and mercs
    >> between you and the OK pack.
    >
    > How does that help? The AoE of the curse is big enough that if you're
    > anywhere near the minions you'll be caught too.

    That rarely happens to me.

    >Plus you don't always know
    > where the okies are, since they can curse you from off screen.

    Generally you know which direction they are in because that is
    the area you haven't cleared yet. It's pretty easy to only
    attack when the merc and minions are closer to all the uncleared
    areas. In WSK, that means feinting down some of the side
    avenues before going forward.
  13. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.26.06.09.37.312035@yahoo.com...

    > So you have special gear that boosts your AR.

    No, I don't. I can remove ALL my skill charms and the Maras and STILL have
    over 5.5k AR, which is STILL more than sufficient. As for the stats on
    Ravenfrost and BotD, maybe I should point out that the druid didn't spend
    points in dex? Many other weapons give AR boost as good or better than mine.
    Jalals is used by nearly every druid under the sun and can be obtained
    fairly cheap, and Ravenfrosts are common enough that I rountinely see them
    GIVEN away, so I think we can rule those out as "special gear". That leaves
    Maras, easily replaced by a rare ammy with +2 druid skills.

    > and additional skill points in WW are not required unless they are going
    with a 2h weapon and a low dex build.

    Umm, guess what my druid is? Yep, 2 hand weapon, low dex.

    > Having a Maras, a BotD weapon, and "a handful" of skillers counts
    > for me as special gear.

    And without those, I'd still have over 5.5k AR, and that's without using a
    pre-buff Enchant from Demon's Limb. Whoo boy, lemme tell ya, I just don't
    think I could contain my grief if it dropped that low.

    2 points if you can spot the sarcasm.

    > Fireclaws as a main build with Fury as an alternative is
    > pretty reasonable. But the above is once again written
    > from the perspective of somebody with very high plus skills.
    > If we were only talking about a conventional number like
    > +6 to Shapeshifting then it would take 22 pts. to max
    > Fire Claws and yet another 30 in a synergy to reach 3K damage.

    Dude, +9 ain't that much harder to reach than +6. And it most certainly does
    NOT take that many points, as I've done it with much less.

    > That rarely happens to me.

    Interesting. I've gotten nailed by some curses cast on party mates that
    weren't even on my screen, guess you're luckier than me.
  14. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 01:37:21 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.26.06.09.37.312035@yahoo.com...
    >
    >> So you have special gear that boosts your AR.
    >
    > No, I don't. I can remove ALL my skill charms and the Maras and STILL have
    > over 5.5k AR, which is STILL more than sufficient. As for the stats on
    > Ravenfrost and BotD, maybe I should point out that the druid didn't spend
    > points in dex? Many other weapons give AR boost as good or better than mine.
    > Jalals is used by nearly every druid under the sun and can be obtained
    > fairly cheap, and Ravenfrosts are common enough that I rountinely see them
    > GIVEN away, so I think we can rule those out as "special gear". That leaves
    > Maras, easily replaced by a rare ammy with +2 druid skills.
    >
    >> and additional skill points in WW are not required unless they are going
    > with a 2h weapon and a low dex build.
    >
    > Umm, guess what my druid is? Yep, 2 hand weapon, low dex.

    Come on. It's silly to claim to that a weapon which requires
    a Vex and a Zod to make and then adds +30 dex +50 AR (not to mention
    -25% target defense 350-400% ED and a bunch of other stuff) isn't
    special gear.


    >> Having a Maras, a BotD weapon, and "a handful" of skillers counts
    >> for me as special gear.
    >
    > And without those, I'd still have over 5.5k AR, and that's without using a
    > pre-buff Enchant from Demon's Limb. Whoo boy, lemme tell ya, I just don't
    > think I could contain my grief if it dropped that low.

    Why don't you explain which gear you do have left then and how it gets
    to 5.5K AR. What is your remaining level of +ShapeShifting?

    >> Fireclaws as a main build with Fury as an alternative is
    >> pretty reasonable. But the above is once again written
    >> from the perspective of somebody with very high plus skills.
    >> If we were only talking about a conventional number like
    >> +6 to Shapeshifting then it would take 22 pts. to max
    >> Fire Claws and yet another 30 in a synergy to reach 3K damage.
    >
    > Dude, +9 ain't that much harder to reach than +6. And it most certainly does
    > NOT take that many points, as I've done it with much less.

    Post the details then. I used a skill/damage calculator to come up
    with those numbers. +9 skills *is* hard to reach for most melee players
    until they are rich. This thread started with a response to someone
    explicitly asking novice questions about Druid builds. Do you think
    they just have gear lying around that lets them get to +9 skills??
    You're either being ridiculous or really out of touch.


    >> That rarely happens to me.
    >
    > Interesting. I've gotten nailed by some curses cast on party mates that
    > weren't even on my screen, guess you're luckier than me.

    Luck has nothing to do with it. If that was IM then you were nailed
    by a different cursing instance.
  15. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.26.17.26.03.269011@yahoo.com...
    > Why don't you explain which gear you do have left then and how it gets
    > to 5.5K AR. What is your remaining level of +ShapeShifting?

    I already listed my full setup earlier. Without the shifter charms and the
    Maras my shifting level would be a mere +5(if I didn't have a Maras,
    Highlords, or a decent rare available, I'd use an Eye of Etlich, which is
    most certainly NOT special gear).

    > Post the details then. I used a skill/damage calculator to come up
    > with those numbers. +9 skills *is* hard to reach for most melee players
    > until they are rich. This thread started with a response to someone
    > explicitly asking novice questions about Druid builds. Do you think
    > they just have gear lying around that lets them get to +9 skills??
    > You're either being ridiculous or really out of touch.

    You can get shifter GCs for pgems. You said +6 was a conventional number,
    and really, it is. Three shifter GCs, that's +9.

    > Luck has nothing to do with it. If that was IM then you were nailed
    > by a different cursing instance.

    Nope, cause only 1 knight in the immediate vicinity, the one that cursed my
    partymate.
  16. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 15:24:53 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.26.17.26.03.269011@yahoo.com...
    >> Why don't you explain which gear you do have left then and how it gets
    >> to 5.5K AR. What is your remaining level of +ShapeShifting?
    >
    > I already listed my full setup earlier. Without the shifter charms and the
    > Maras my shifting level would be a mere +5(if I didn't have a Maras,
    > Highlords, or a decent rare available, I'd use an Eye of Etlich, which is
    > most certainly NOT special gear).

    You didn't say what skill level you had that let you
    reach 6.5K AR for Feral Rage with just one skill point in
    it and one skill point in WW. It also sounded like your
    build needed the resists on the Maras as well as the +2 skills.

    >> Post the details then. I used a skill/damage calculator to come up
    >> with those numbers. +9 skills *is* hard to reach for most melee players
    >> until they are rich. This thread started with a response to someone
    >> explicitly asking novice questions about Druid builds. Do you think
    >> they just have gear lying around that lets them get to +9 skills??
    >> You're either being ridiculous or really out of touch.
    >
    > You can get shifter GCs for pgems. You said +6 was a conventional number,
    > and really, it is. Three shifter GCs, that's +9.

    I haven't seen any ShapeShifter GCs offered for only a few PGems,
    on Ladder anyway. But in any case, I explicitly posted some
    combinations of gear and numbers earlier showing that +8 skills
    would normally only get one to about 3.5K AR. Here it is again
    from that earlier post:

    ******************************************************
    The base AR of a Druid is Dexterity*5 - 30. If a lvl 70
    char uses 2 Dex per lvl, which is more than most Druids do,
    he would have a base AR of only 670. WW adds 50% AR at
    lvl 1 and 15% more per lvl. Feral Rage adds 20% AR at lvl 1
    and 10% more per lvl. So, for example, your char could
    get to 3.5K AR with +14 to ShapeShifting skills. If you
    were wearing a nice RavenFrost with +20Dex and +200AR
    then your base AR would jump to 970, and getting to
    a respectable 3.5K AR would still require +8 to
    ShapeShifting (which is still nice gear). Its easy
    to see how to do this with nice stuff like Maras etc.,
    but not easy to see with mid level gear.
    *************************************************

    So you say above that +9 gives you 5.5K. Where is
    other Dex or AR coming from?


    >> Luck has nothing to do with it. If that was IM then you were nailed
    >> by a different cursing instance.
    >
    > Nope, cause only 1 knight in the immediate vicinity, the one that cursed my
    > partymate.

    AS lists the radius of IM as a constant 4.6 yards.
    You wrote earlier:

    >I've gotten nailed by some curses cast on party mates that
    >weren't even on my screen, guess you're luckier than me.

    My experience is in line with what AS says and not what you
    are claiming.
  17. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.27.03.22.05.461245@yahoo.com...

    > I don't have a general problem with Shiftlet's posts or his opinions,
    > or his original post in this thread. In the big scheme of ideas
    > about Diablo, I agree with him way more than most people, and I
    > agreed with most of what he wrote in his original post.
    > If you google for Werewolf build guides on the net, you'll find
    > that most of them wrongly suggest one should max Werewolf, while
    > Shiftlet and I have agreed in this thread and in
    > previous ones (google for Fury, Zeal, and Gimmershred)
    > why that is normally unnecessary.

    Yes! I see guides suggesting people max that constantly, some of them even
    claiming that it adds more life and damage with more points! Arg, it gets
    old!


    > and is not really "out of touch" with the fact that a BoTD weapon is leet
    gear.

    Of course it's "leet gear", that's not in dispute is it? I was saying that
    it doesn't help my AR a ton, cause other weapons give AR boosts, and the dex
    boost is covered by pointing out that I have very very low dex without
    items. I actually said a lot of my gear is great, I'm not humble about
    it...just pointing out that the great gear that was supposedly boosting my
    AR really doesn't affect my AR that much. The ring, the helm, and the weapon
    are the only ones that boost it at all, and 2 of those pieces are fairly
    standard for melee druids. And the loss of AR from BotD can be made up with
    by other weapons that have AR boosts themselves(or use an ITD weapon, which
    will accomplish mostly the same thing). As for the dex, my dex is very low.
    Even with items it's not nearly as high as I generally take my characters. I
    actually consider BotD overrated(and have argued this point on other forums
    as well). Sure, it has uberfied damage(it IS amusing to note that your melee
    character has physical damage in the 25-30k range and poison damage in the
    20-21k range if partied with the right team) and IAS, but the rest of the
    mods are NOT what I usually look for in a PvM weapon. Case in point would be
    my zealot-I could get him a eBotD zerker...but that would mean replacing his
    Stormlash to do so, and I won't do that.
  18. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.27.02.43.01.881143@yahoo.com...
    > it and one skill point in WW. It also sounded like your
    > build needed the resists on the Maras as well as the +2 skills.

    I prefer the resists on Maras, though depending on what I do with my current
    charms(see other replies in thread for details) I may not need them, in
    which case I'd jump to a Highlords ASAP.

    > I haven't seen any ShapeShifter GCs offered for only a few PGems,
    > on Ladder anyway.

    Shifter GCs aren't desired except occasionally by fire claws or rabies
    druids. Most people don't offer them at all, and you won't see them offered
    if you don't request them.

    > So you say above that +9 gives you 5.5K. Where is
    > other Dex or AR coming from?

    I know there's some AR on charms(I think I already mentioned that), no dex
    AFAIK though.

    > AS lists the radius of IM as a constant 4.6 yards.
    > You wrote earlier:
    >
    > >I've gotten nailed by some curses cast on party mates that
    > >weren't even on my screen, guess you're luckier than me.
    >
    > My experience is in line with what AS says and not what you
    > are claiming.

    I've been cursed before, nothing at all on my screen, nothing behind me
    because the path was cleared, so it HAD to be something ahead of me cursing
    my teammates as nothing else was around. It happens with every curse,
    unfortunately. I KNOW Decrep has a tiny radius, and I get caught with it
    sometimes even though there's no way I should have been it range of anything
    casting it.
  19. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    My my, doesn't Last2Know <grokkalot@yahoo.com> look good in that trenchcoat:

    >You didn't say what skill level you had that let you
    >reach 6.5K AR for Feral Rage with just one skill point in
    >it and one skill point in WW. It also sounded like your
    >build needed the resists on the Maras as well as the +2 skills.

    Focusing on the attack rating issue...

    Using the setup mentioned earlier (jalals/dracs/ravenfrost/verdungos, base
    dexterity, with or without BOTD, etc etc), a handful of decent +attack rating
    charms (such as, some grand charms with 100+ AR, preferably 120+ AR, or in a
    "richer" setup, good smalls with good suffixes) has a signicant increase to AR
    (indeed, far more than the benefits of the SS charms, although those are being
    used to amplify damage on the relevant combat skills, not the AR), once the
    amplification effect of fury/rabies/fire claws (whichever the build is) + the
    single point WW comes into play, I was seeing an AR in the 6-6.5K range, as
    documented. Maybe shiflet is using something else to get the same effect,
    I'm only going on what has been mentioned in the thread, but using a test
    character, I observed the 3.5 to 6.5K AR improvement just from adding in these
    such charms, and there was still room for some shapeshifting charms to amplify
    the effects of fireclaws/rabies.

    If the BOTD weapon is not available, a weapon such as the unique/set ogre
    mauls still makes for a very strong build, and other items such as dracs (if
    we consider this an "uber" item, too) can be switched out for something else,
    if not available, while still retaining the core of the build (and most the
    attack rating - I observed a 1K AR drop when AR bonus on the BOTD weapon was
    removed).

    Certainly in a no twink/no trade environment, sources of AR are going to be
    harder to come by (but a charm reroll is only a few gems away), but amassing a
    solid "base AR" from charms will get you a long way even with base dexterity,
    no ravenfrost, etc etc.
  20. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:48:40 +1300, Stephen van Ham wrote:

    > My my, doesn't Last2Know <grokkalot@yahoo.com> look good in that trenchcoat:
    >
    >>You didn't say what skill level you had that let you
    >>reach 6.5K AR for Feral Rage with just one skill point in
    >>it and one skill point in WW. It also sounded like your
    >>build needed the resists on the Maras as well as the +2 skills.
    >
    > Focusing on the attack rating issue...
    >
    > Using the setup mentioned earlier (jalals/dracs/ravenfrost/verdungos, base
    > dexterity, with or without BOTD, etc etc), a handful of decent +attack rating
    > charms (such as, some grand charms with 100+ AR, preferably 120+ AR, or in a
    > "richer" setup, good smalls with good suffixes) has a signicant increase to AR
    > (indeed, far more than the benefits of the SS charms, although those are being
    > used to amplify damage on the relevant combat skills, not the AR), once the
    > amplification effect of fury/rabies/fire claws (whichever the build is) + the
    > single point WW comes into play, I was seeing an AR in the 6-6.5K range, as
    > documented.

    That's easy to understand. In the example numbers I put together,
    the base AR was 670 from stat points alone, adding 300 AR from
    Ravenfrost brought it 970, and +8 skills brought it to 3.5 K.
    So adding 700-800 from Steel GCs to the base could almost double it,
    getting it up to 6K. In fact, using Angelic Ammy and 2 Angelic
    rings would do even better. But generally speaking, most
    players would find it a good tradeoff to put more points in
    WW rather than forgo the all the resist and damage boosts they get
    from rings, ammy, and charms.
  21. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Stephen van Ham" <svanham@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
    news:tvf221d0v2fjasarvdlrcet54o6a2eko6e@4ax.com...
    > Focusing on the attack rating issue...
    >
    > Using the setup mentioned earlier (jalals/dracs/ravenfrost/verdungos, base
    > dexterity, with or without BOTD, etc etc), a handful of decent +attack
    rating
    > charms (such as, some grand charms with 100+ AR, preferably 120+ AR, or in
    a
    > "richer" setup, good smalls with good suffixes) has a signicant increase
    to AR
    > (indeed, far more than the benefits of the SS charms, although those are
    being
    > used to amplify damage on the relevant combat skills, not the AR),

    Yeah, I was using shifter charms to boost Rabies more than anything, as he
    started out as a Rabies druid. He still uses it, but since I use Fury more,
    it's actually rather tempting to replace them with other damage boosting
    charms(a few +max damage charms or elemental damage charms actually add more
    Fury damage than a shifter charm does).

    > once the
    > amplification effect of fury/rabies/fire claws (whichever the build is) +
    the
    > single point WW comes into play, I was seeing an AR in the 6-6.5K range,
    as
    > documented. Maybe shiflet is using something else to get the same
    effect,

    There are some AR boosting charms in his inventory, though without opening
    up D2 I can't tell you how many or how much AR per charm, or what other mod
    they have.
  22. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.27.04.56.50.893233@yahoo.com...
    > That's easy to understand. In the example numbers I put together,
    > the base AR was 670 from stat points alone, adding 300 AR from
    > Ravenfrost brought it 970, and +8 skills brought it to 3.5 K.

    Note it should actually be slightly higher, cause Jalals has that 20% AR
    boost as well.

    > But generally speaking, most
    > players would find it a good tradeoff to put more points in
    > WW rather than forgo the all the resist and damage boosts they get
    > from rings, ammy, and charms.

    Well, you can use max damage/ar charms(the 3/20/20 small ones cost a
    fortune, the grand charms, much less so and you'll be gaining damage, AR,
    AND saving skill points). Since I use Rabies much less often now, I'm
    tempted to replace my shifter charms with max/AR charms myself. It would
    boost my Fury damage more than shifter charms do, my AR as much or more, and
    could provide more life or faster run or something if I had a second mod on
    them.
  23. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 01:59:11 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.27.03.22.05.461245@yahoo.com...
    >
    >> I don't have a general problem with Shiftlet's posts or his opinions,
    >> or his original post in this thread. In the big scheme of ideas
    >> about Diablo, I agree with him way more than most people, and I
    >> agreed with most of what he wrote in his original post.
    >> If you google for Werewolf build guides on the net, you'll find
    >> that most of them wrongly suggest one should max Werewolf, while
    >> Shiftlet and I have agreed in this thread and in
    >> previous ones (google for Fury, Zeal, and Gimmershred)
    >> why that is normally unnecessary.
    >
    > Yes! I see guides suggesting people max that constantly, some of them even
    > claiming that it adds more life and damage with more points! Arg, it gets
    > old!
    >
    >
    >> and is not really "out of touch" with the fact that a BoTD weapon is leet
    > gear.
    >
    > Of course it's "leet gear", that's not in dispute is it? I was saying that
    > it doesn't help my AR a ton, cause other weapons give AR boosts, and the dex
    > boost is covered by pointing out that I have very very low dex without
    > items. I actually said a lot of my gear is great, I'm not humble about
    > it...

    The original thrust of my "out of touch" comment was actually
    about having +9 skills on a melee char. The point was not that
    the poor reader could not hope to afford that (maybe they can or
    can't), but rather that such a level shouldn't be taken for granted
    when giving build advice. If that is what is required for a strong
    build with good AR and a given skill point allocation, then it's
    much clearer to give such a premise explicitly. The quoted text
    above just flowed better in the context of responding to misfit.
  24. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.28.07.09.40.595790@yahoo.com...
    > The original thrust of my "out of touch" comment was actually
    > about having +9 skills on a melee char. The point was not that
    > the poor reader could not hope to afford that (maybe they can or
    > can't), but rather that such a level shouldn't be taken for granted
    > when giving build advice.

    But +4-5 should. And with +5 you still have sufficient AR.
  25. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 02:08:30 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.27.04.56.50.893233@yahoo.com...
    >> That's easy to understand. In the example numbers I put together,
    >> the base AR was 670 from stat points alone, adding 300 AR from
    >> Ravenfrost brought it 970, and +8 skills brought it to 3.5 K.
    >
    > Note it should actually be slightly higher, cause Jalals has that 20% AR
    > boost as well.

    Oops, I forgot about that. Though since it adds along with skills
    and not to the base, it wouldn't change the numbers too much
    - e.g. the lvl 8 AR bonus from WW and Feral Rage of 245% would go
    to 265%.

    >> But generally speaking, most
    >> players would find it a good tradeoff to put more points in
    >> WW rather than forgo the all the resist and damage boosts they get
    >> from rings, ammy, and charms.
    >
    > Well, you can use max damage/ar charms(the 3/20/20 small ones cost a
    > fortune, the grand charms, much less so and you'll be gaining damage, AR,
    > AND saving skill points).

    It's much easier to get 80-120 AR on GCs, but seemingly harder to find
    those with significant added damage.

    > Since I use Rabies much less often now, I'm
    > tempted to replace my shifter charms with max/AR charms myself. It would
    > boost my Fury damage more than shifter charms do, my AR as much or more,
    > and could provide more life or faster run or something if I had a second
    > mod on them.

    At skill level 8 an additional +1 to Fury only adds about 2.6%
    damage. You might be able to add a higher percentage to your
    weapon damage, though starting with an EBoTD thunder maul makes
    that harder to do than it would be for most people. Using
    Highlords rather a Maras would probably give you the biggest
    damage boost, something ~30% overall.
  26. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 02:13:32 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.27.02.43.01.881143@yahoo.com...
    >> it and one skill point in WW. It also sounded like your
    >> build needed the resists on the Maras as well as the +2 skills.
    >
    > I prefer the resists on Maras, though depending on what I do with my current
    > charms(see other replies in thread for details) I may not need them, in
    > which case I'd jump to a Highlords ASAP.

    I just mentioned that also in another post. Your
    build would probably be offensively stronger for Fury at least if you
    replaced some skillers with resistance charms (putting more
    points in WW if necessary :), and replaced the Maras
    with a Highlords. I don't know how your relative offense
    and defense requirements balance out.

    >> I haven't seen any ShapeShifter GCs offered for only a few PGems, on
    >> Ladder anyway.
    >
    > Shifter GCs aren't desired except occasionally by fire claws or rabies
    > druids. Most people don't offer them at all, and you won't see them
    > offered if you don't request them.

    The trade guides say they cost between Lem and Pul for plain ones.


    >> AS lists the radius of IM as a constant 4.6 yards. You wrote earlier:
    >>
    >> >I've gotten nailed by some curses cast on party mates that weren't
    >> >even on my screen, guess you're luckier than me.
    >>
    >> My experience is in line with what AS says and not what you are
    >> claiming.
    >
    > I've been cursed before, nothing at all on my screen, nothing behind me
    > because the path was cleared, so it HAD to be something ahead of me
    > cursing my teammates as nothing else was around. It happens with every
    > curse, unfortunately. I KNOW Decrep has a tiny radius, and I get caught
    > with it sometimes even though there's no way I should have been it range
    > of anything casting it.

    Might just be lag making difference curses seem to come at the same
    time.
  27. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.28.07.44.54.486652@yahoo.com...

    > I just mentioned that also in another post. Your
    > build would probably be offensively stronger for Fury at least if you
    > replaced some skillers with resistance charms (putting more
    > points in WW if necessary :)

    Adding more points in WW would serve me no purpose at all.

    >, and replaced the Maras with a Highlords. I don't know how your relative
    offense
    > and defense requirements balance out.

    I'd prefer to use Highlords, at the moment, just gotta rearrange charms.

    > The trade guides say they cost between Lem and Pul for plain ones.

    I've yet to see a trade guide that matches, even somewhat closely, what
    people in trade channels and trade games actually want.

    > Might just be lag making difference curses seem to come at the same
    > time.

    Perhaps. I have a fast connection and lag in very rarely a problem for me on
    B.net, but who knows.
  28. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.28.07.32.04.472750@yahoo.com...
    > It's much easier to get 80-120 AR on GCs, but seemingly harder to find
    > those with significant added damage.

    Added damage doesn't have to be signifigant...anything at all is better than
    none. Even a +1 damage boost equates to around 20 extra damage(putting a +3
    max charm on my zealot boosts his max by ~60 damage). Not a lot, but it adds
    up.

    > At skill level 8 an additional +1 to Fury only adds about 2.6%
    > damage.

    Yeah, I don't use the charms to boost Fury, I use it to boost Rabies. Each
    +skill adds about 1k damage to Rabies. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to
    make it much more effective regardless.

    > Using Highlords rather a Maras would probably give you the biggest
    > damage boost, something ~30% overall.

    Oh, it would, for sure.
  29. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    My my, doesn't "Shiflet" <rshiflet@charter.net> look good in that trenchcoat:

    >Yeah, I was using shifter charms to boost Rabies more than anything, as he
    >started out as a Rabies druid. He still uses it, but since I use Fury more,
    >it's actually rather tempting to replace them with other damage boosting
    >charms(a few +max damage charms or elemental damage charms actually add more
    >Fury damage than a shifter charm does).

    I remember your chronicles of your rabies experiment with the carrion wind.
    Whitedog did something similar, although I'm pretty sure he didn't have a BOTD
    weapon. I think the some of his gear was about the same as you described for
    yours (except for the part where he used the aldurs set for laughs). I'd
    been wanting to actually make not a rabies druid but a fire claws druid for a
    while, but my motivation to work on new characters has been gone for a few
    months, as previously mentioned elsewhere. I still find it interesting to
    read through the various discussions of builds, though.

    >There are some AR boosting charms in his inventory, though without opening
    >up D2 I can't tell you how many or how much AR per charm, or what other mod
    >they have.

    That little test character I made had no points in dexterity, and had around
    500 AR worth of charms in his pack, more or less. For every 10 sundry points
    you might have put into dex, would mean 50 AR less worth of charms in the
    pack. That could well make things a little easier for a no twink character
    to have a little sundry dex to free up some charm slots for more singular
    resist charms, but for longer term, or twinked/traded play, base dex certainly
    seems the way to go.

    Good thread.
  30. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.28.07.32.04.472750@yahoo.com...
    > On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 02:08:30 -0600, Shiflet wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > > news:pan.2005.02.27.04.56.50.893233@yahoo.com...
    > >> That's easy to understand. In the example numbers I put together,
    > >> the base AR was 670 from stat points alone, adding 300 AR from
    > >> Ravenfrost brought it 970, and +8 skills brought it to 3.5 K.
    > >
    > > Note it should actually be slightly higher, cause Jalals has that 20% AR
    > > boost as well.
    >
    > Oops, I forgot about that. Though since it adds along with skills
    > and not to the base, it wouldn't change the numbers too much
    > - e.g. the lvl 8 AR bonus from WW and Feral Rage of 245% would go
    > to 265%.
    >
    > >> But generally speaking, most
    > >> players would find it a good tradeoff to put more points in
    > >> WW rather than forgo the all the resist and damage boosts they get
    > >> from rings, ammy, and charms.
    > >
    > > Well, you can use max damage/ar charms(the 3/20/20 small ones cost a
    > > fortune, the grand charms, much less so and you'll be gaining damage,
    AR,
    > > AND saving skill points).
    >
    > It's much easier to get 80-120 AR on GCs, but seemingly harder to find
    > those with significant added damage.
    >
    What do you mean "significant added damage"? Even a few +6 max dmg charms
    add a couple of hundred to your damage total (if you have a decent dmg
    weapon to begin with). It seems almost EVERY GC I find with a good bit of
    AR has +max damage as well.


    short
  31. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    My my, doesn't "~misfit~" <misfit61nz@hooya.co.nz> look good in that
    trenchcoat:

    >Pax.

    Het!
  32. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    Stephen van Ham wrote:

    <snip>

    > I remember your chronicles of your rabies experiment with the carrion
    > wind. Whitedog did something similar, although I'm pretty sure he
    > didn't have a BOTD weapon. I think the some of his gear was about
    > the same as you described for yours (except for the part where he
    > used the aldurs set for laughs).

    Is the Aldur's set really that bad? I haven't built a druid and have no
    immediate desire to but do a bit of MF and found the armour the other day,
    completing the set. Is it a waste of mule space?

    I also found a Cerebus' Bite, are they any good? I see everybody uses
    Jalal's. My Cerebus' has +4 to SS skills and 10% LL. I'm not sure of the
    other variables off-hand, (+1 or 2 to feral rage and 60-120% bonus to AR).
    I've only just looked it up. I thought the 33% open wounds may be good.

    Cheers,
    --
    ~misfit~


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  33. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    I think it was "~misfit~" <misfit61nz@hooya.co.nz> that wrote
    something like...

    >Stephen van Ham wrote:
    >
    ><snip>
    >
    >> I remember your chronicles of your rabies experiment with the carrion
    >> wind. Whitedog did something similar, although I'm pretty sure he
    >> didn't have a BOTD weapon. I think the some of his gear was about
    >> the same as you described for yours (except for the part where he
    >> used the aldurs set for laughs).
    >
    >Is the Aldur's set really that bad? I haven't built a druid and have no
    >immediate desire to but do a bit of MF and found the armour the other day,
    >completing the set. Is it a waste of mule space?
    >
    >I also found a Cerebus' Bite, are they any good? I see everybody uses
    >Jalal's. My Cerebus' has +4 to SS skills and 10% LL. I'm not sure of the
    >other variables off-hand, (+1 or 2 to feral rage and 60-120% bonus to AR).
    >I've only just looked it up. I thought the 33% open wounds may be good.
    >
    >Cheers,

    My furywolf used one last ladder, but then I'd not found a Jalals at
    that time. I'd guess the Jalals would generally be better because of
    the resist all.

    Ashen Shugar
    --
    The lions sing and the hills take flight.
    The moon by day, and the sun by night.
    Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
    Let the Lord of Chaos rule!
  34. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "~misfit~" <misfit61nz@hooya.co.nz> wrote in message
    news:42226d6f$1_2@127.0.0.1...
    > Is the Aldur's set really that bad?

    Mostly, yes. Damage is too low for a shifter and mods are ineffective for a
    caster. Rabies/Fireclaws builds can sometimes use it, but otherwise, it's a
    waste.

    > I also found a Cerebus' Bite, are they any good? I see everybody uses
    > Jalal's.

    Cerebus is used for PvP sometimes(cause of the huge AR boost...a PvP wolf
    needs AR in the 20-30k range to reliably trade hits with a barb or zealot,
    plus Open Wounds is dangerous in PvP), and basically nothing else.

    > Cheers,
    > --
    > ~misfit~
    >
    >
    >
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  35. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 05:59:22 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.28.07.32.04.472750@yahoo.com...
    >> It's much easier to get 80-120 AR on GCs, but seemingly harder to find
    >> those with significant added damage.
    >
    > Added damage doesn't have to be signifigant...anything at all is better than
    > none. Even a +1 damage boost equates to around 20 extra damage(putting a +3
    > max charm on my zealot boosts his max by ~60 damage). Not a lot, but it adds
    > up.

    A boost of 60 to max damage is a boost of *30 to average damage*.
    If your damage per hit were even >5K (you actually mentioned 21K)
    earlier, then you get boost of *50 to average damage* with only a
    1% improvement in chance to hit. So it sounds like for your setup,
    which charms will give the best improvement in chance to hit is the
    dominant factor. I may sound like a broken record, but I point out
    yet again that if you have extra skill points laying around, a few in WW
    can improve your to hit chance by that much or more without taking up
    space in your inventory. In the context of the above, please don't take my
    comments about your skillers in this thread as being negative on that
    choice. I think they were a good choice because they boost your
    AR, life, and damage, and my only issue is that their use is unusual
    enough that it should be mentioned in the context of making
    unqualified statements about skill point allocation.


    >> At skill level 8 an additional +1 to Fury only adds about 2.6%
    >> damage.
    >
    > Yeah, I don't use the charms to boost Fury, I use it to boost Rabies. Each
    > +skill adds about 1k damage to Rabies. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to
    > make it much more effective regardless.

    As noted above, they are boosting your life, and your damage to Fury
    both from the ED% for the skill and the chance to hit.
  36. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:02:32 -0500, short wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.28.07.32.04.472750@yahoo.com...
    >> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 02:08:30 -0600, Shiflet wrote:
    >>
    >> >
    >> > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    >> > news:pan.2005.02.27.04.56.50.893233@yahoo.com...
    >> >> That's easy to understand. In the example numbers I put together,
    >> >> the base AR was 670 from stat points alone, adding 300 AR from
    >> >> Ravenfrost brought it 970, and +8 skills brought it to 3.5 K.
    >> >
    >> > Note it should actually be slightly higher, cause Jalals has that 20% AR
    >> > boost as well.
    >>
    >> Oops, I forgot about that. Though since it adds along with skills
    >> and not to the base, it wouldn't change the numbers too much
    >> - e.g. the lvl 8 AR bonus from WW and Feral Rage of 245% would go
    >> to 265%.
    >>
    >> >> But generally speaking, most
    >> >> players would find it a good tradeoff to put more points in
    >> >> WW rather than forgo the all the resist and damage boosts they get
    >> >> from rings, ammy, and charms.
    >> >
    >> > Well, you can use max damage/ar charms(the 3/20/20 small ones cost a
    >> > fortune, the grand charms, much less so and you'll be gaining damage,
    > AR,
    >> > AND saving skill points).
    >>
    >> It's much easier to get 80-120 AR on GCs, but seemingly harder to find
    >> those with significant added damage.
    >>
    > What do you mean "significant added damage"? Even a few +6 max dmg charms
    > add a couple of hundred to your damage total (if you have a decent dmg
    > weapon to begin with). It seems almost EVERY GC I find with a good bit of
    > AR has +max damage as well.

    I've only found 1 with AR over 80 and +max or +min of 6 more on
    the last ladder and none on the current ladder. They are definitely
    findable, but they don't drop like eld's or even io's. I have
    found some others that added 10 cold damage or something along
    those lines.
  37. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.28.20.46.36.426902@yahoo.com...


    > A boost of 60 to max damage is a boost of *30 to average damage*.
    > If your damage per hit were even >5K (you actually mentioned 21K)

    I mentioned 21k poison. Max damage charms do not affect that, +skills do.

    > I may sound like a broken record, but I point out
    > yet again that if you have extra skill points laying around, a few in WW
    > can improve your to hit chance by that much or more without taking up
    > space in your inventory.

    And THEY DO NOT BOOST MY RABIES DAMAGE. That is THE ONLY REASON I was using
    skill charms. I do not, I repeat, do NOT use them for AR. If I drop ALL of
    them my AR is MORE than sufficient. I likewise do not use them for Fury,
    because if I drop ALL of them, I will STILL have damage in the 3-14k range.
    I've stated several times if it wasn't for Rabies, I wouldn't be using them,
    and may drop them anyways.

    > > Yeah, I don't use the charms to boost Fury, I use it to boost Rabies.
    Each
    > > +skill adds about 1k damage to Rabies. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to
    > > make it much more effective regardless.
    >
    > As noted above, they are boosting your life, and your damage to Fury
    > both from the ED% for the skill and the chance to hit.

    I don't CARE about those boosts though. They mean NOTHING to me. I use them
    for Rabies, THAT IS ALL. If they didn't boost anything else at ALL I would
    STILL have been using them. They don't add much damage, they AR they add is
    barely noticable.
  38. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:06:51 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.28.20.46.36.426902@yahoo.com...
    >
    >
    >> A boost of 60 to max damage is a boost of *30 to average damage*.
    >> If your damage per hit were even >5K (you actually mentioned 21K)
    >
    > I mentioned 21k poison. Max damage charms do not affect that, +skills do.

    This is your quote that I was recalling:

    >I actually consider BotD overrated(and have argued this point on other
    >forums as well). Sure, it has uberfied damage(it IS amusing to note that
    >your melee character has physical damage in the 25-30k range and poison
    >damage in the 20-21k range if partied with the right team)

    So you mentioned 25-30K in the context of aura boosts, etc.
    So my comment about the relative avg. damage boost from a 1%
    improvement in chance to hit goes quintuple for those cases.


    >> I may sound like a broken record, but I point out yet again that if you
    >> have extra skill points laying around, a few in WW can improve your to
    >> hit chance by that much or more without taking up space in your
    >> inventory.
    >
    > And THEY DO NOT BOOST MY RABIES DAMAGE. That is THE ONLY REASON I was
    > using skill charms.

    I thought we moved on to a side discussion of how you could boost
    your Fury damage, considering minor gear changes, etc.

    >I do not, I repeat, do NOT use them for AR. If I
    > drop ALL of them my AR is MORE than sufficient.


    The point about increasing damage by increasing chance to
    hit doesn't apply in a linear way to a duration skill like
    Rabies. I was talking about Fury above.

    The AR discussin was never about Rabies anyway because that was
    a skill you were specializing in, not a one point wonder
    like Feral Rage.


    >I likewise do not use
    > them for Fury, because if I drop ALL of them, I will STILL have damage
    > in the 3-14k range. I've stated several times if it wasn't for Rabies, I
    > wouldn't be using them, and may drop them anyways.

    The last few posts were about which charms or gear increase physical
    damage the most. That's just a question about formulas, and your
    original rational for using the skillers doesn't seem particularly
    relevant to that question.
  39. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.28.20.59.43.145791@yahoo.com...
    > On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:02:32 -0500, short wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > > news:pan.2005.02.28.07.32.04.472750@yahoo.com...
    > >> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 02:08:30 -0600, Shiflet wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >
    > >> > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > >> > news:pan.2005.02.27.04.56.50.893233@yahoo.com...
    > >> >> That's easy to understand. In the example numbers I put together,
    > >> >> the base AR was 670 from stat points alone, adding 300 AR from
    > >> >> Ravenfrost brought it 970, and +8 skills brought it to 3.5 K.
    > >> >
    > >> > Note it should actually be slightly higher, cause Jalals has that 20%
    AR
    > >> > boost as well.
    > >>
    > >> Oops, I forgot about that. Though since it adds along with skills
    > >> and not to the base, it wouldn't change the numbers too much
    > >> - e.g. the lvl 8 AR bonus from WW and Feral Rage of 245% would go
    > >> to 265%.
    > >>
    > >> >> But generally speaking, most
    > >> >> players would find it a good tradeoff to put more points in
    > >> >> WW rather than forgo the all the resist and damage boosts they get
    > >> >> from rings, ammy, and charms.
    > >> >
    > >> > Well, you can use max damage/ar charms(the 3/20/20 small ones cost a
    > >> > fortune, the grand charms, much less so and you'll be gaining damage,
    > > AR,
    > >> > AND saving skill points).
    > >>
    > >> It's much easier to get 80-120 AR on GCs, but seemingly harder to find
    > >> those with significant added damage.
    > >>
    > > What do you mean "significant added damage"? Even a few +6 max dmg
    charms
    > > add a couple of hundred to your damage total (if you have a decent dmg
    > > weapon to begin with). It seems almost EVERY GC I find with a good bit
    of
    > > AR has +max damage as well.
    >
    > I've only found 1 with AR over 80 and +max or +min of 6 more on
    > the last ladder and none on the current ladder. They are definitely
    > findable, but they don't drop like eld's or even io's. I have
    > found some others that added 10 cold damage or something along
    > those lines.
    >
    >
    >
    Need some? If you're on West SC, I've got quite a few gathering dust, I'm
    pretty sure.


    short
  40. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.28.21.48.59.5652@yahoo.com...

    > So you mentioned 25-30K in the context of aura boosts, etc.

    Yes, I said with the right party. I do not build for parties however, I
    build my characters to solo, and then if I CAN boost party play I will. For
    normal solo situations, my physical damage is 3-15k.

    > I thought we moved on to a side discussion of how you could boost
    > your Fury damage, considering minor gear changes, etc.

    No, I merely said 3 small +max damage charms or one grand +max charm would
    boost my fury damage more than a shifter charm. Boosting the damage was just
    a bonus, not the goal of the charm changes.

    > The point about increasing damage by increasing chance to
    > hit

    I have no problems hitting now, so increasing chance to hit does absolutely
    nothing. If you rarely miss, it's hard to signifigantly increase the chance
    to hit. Adding more points to werewolf would add, at best, 2-3% extra
    chance. Not worth it.

    > The AR discussin was never about Rabies anyway because that was
    > a skill you were specializing in, not a one point wonder
    > like Feral Rage.

    And in reference to damage AR is irrelevant as I don't miss enough now to
    NEED a better chance to hit.

    > The last few posts were about which charms or gear increase physical
    > damage the most.

    Uhh no, they weren't. It was mentioned in passing as just another minor
    reason to replace the skillers.

    > That's just a question about formulas, and your original rational for
    using the skillers doesn't seem particularly relevant to that question.

    Actually yeah it does, cause the original thing I was considering was based
    on if the skillers are more useful than other things. For Rabies they are,
    for anything else, they are not.
  41. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:49:06 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.02.28.21.48.59.5652@yahoo.com...
    >
    >> So you mentioned 25-30K in the context of aura boosts, etc.
    >
    > Yes, I said with the right party. I do not build for parties however, I
    > build my characters to solo, and then if I CAN boost party play I will. For
    > normal solo situations, my physical damage is 3-15k.

    Boosting your chance to hit increases your avg. damage from all sources,
    not just physical. But ignoring that, adding +9 to your max damage
    adds +4.5 to your avg. damage. With a weapon like an EBoTD Thundermaul,
    4.5 is a tiny percentage of your base damage.

    >> I thought we moved on to a side discussion of how you could boost
    >> your Fury damage, considering minor gear changes, etc.
    >
    > No, I merely said 3 small +max damage charms or one grand +max charm would
    > boost my fury damage more than a shifter charm. Boosting the damage was just
    > a bonus, not the goal of the charm changes.
    >
    >> The point about increasing damage by increasing chance to
    >> hit
    >
    > I have no problems hitting now, so increasing chance to hit does absolutely
    > nothing. If you rarely miss, it's hard to signifigantly increase the chance
    > to hit. Adding more points to werewolf would add, at best, 2-3% extra
    > chance. Not worth it.

    Taking you at your word, you are getting less than that from adding +9
    max from charms.
  42. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.03.01.02.57.03.165465@yahoo.com...
    > Taking you at your word, you are getting less than that from adding +9
    > max from charms.

    Except...if you don't miss, you can't exactly increase your chance to hit.
    So you get NO damage boost.
  43. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:14:15 -0600, Shiflet wrote:

    >
    > "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2005.03.01.02.57.03.165465@yahoo.com...
    >> Taking you at your word, you are getting less than that from adding +9
    >> max from charms.
    >
    > Except...if you don't miss, you can't exactly increase your chance to hit.
    > So you get NO damage boost.

    AR doesn't help when using an ITD weapon against a regular
    monster, but that isn't your situation. Also,
    chance to hit is capped at 95% overall.
    But it's almost impossible to achieve that for late
    hell level in 1.10, where even regular monsters have
    around 2k defense and a higher level than one's character
    (a level 90+ Pally using conviction could do it).
    So AR boost which most always help improve chance to hit
    in late hell, except when using ITD against an
    ordinary monster.
  44. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.03.01.04.37.15.234975@yahoo.com...
    > AR doesn't help when using an ITD weapon against a regular
    > monster, but that isn't your situation. Also,
    > chance to hit is capped at 95% overall.
    > But it's almost impossible to achieve that for late
    > hell level in 1.10, where even regular monsters have
    > around 2k defense and a higher level than one's character
    > (a level 90+ Pally using conviction could do it).
    > So AR boost which most always help improve chance to hit
    > in late hell, except when using ITD against an
    > ordinary monster.

    Except there's a difference between what the screen shows and what happens.
    It's easy to tell if you're hitting or not, as when you hit, there's the
    little leech swirlies over your head, plus the graphics for CB, DS, fire
    damage, etc. And I see those pretty much every swing as it is, so...
  45. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    My my, doesn't Last2Know <grokkalot@yahoo.com> look good in that trenchcoat:

    >That's easy to understand. In the example numbers I put together,
    >the base AR was 670 from stat points alone, adding 300 AR from
    >Ravenfrost brought it 970, and +8 skills brought it to 3.5 K.
    >So adding 700-800 from Steel GCs to the base could almost double it,
    >getting it up to 6K. In fact, using Angelic Ammy and 2 Angelic
    >rings would do even better. But generally speaking, most
    >players would find it a good tradeoff to put more points in
    >WW rather than forgo the all the resist and damage boosts they get
    >from rings, ammy, and charms.

    I'm not going to pretend to speak for "most players" on one issue or another.

    So, let's look at some numbers instead.

    First, for Fury. In all these numbers, in the interests of representing the
    poor/notwink/notrade/noMF/noluck/nogamble player (since this is the scenario
    that best supports your argument), I'm going to assume no +skills items
    whatsoever. I am going to assume the relevant combat skill is maxed out,
    since that seems to be the given.

    20 Fury + 1 Werewolf = +183% AR (Fury) + +50% AR (WW) = +283% AR = 3.83 times
    base AR
    20 Fury + 10 Werewolf = +183% AR + 185% AR = +368% AR = 4.68 times base AR
    20 Fury + 20 Werewolf = +183% AR + 335% AR = +518% AR = 6.18 times base AR

    So, best case scenario is comparing 1 point WW with 20 point WW (assuming 20
    point Fury in both cases), and assuming no +skills items -> 3.83 times base
    (for 1 WW) compared to 6.18 times base AR (for 20 WW) = 61% more attack
    rating, at the cost of 19 skill points. A significant number, to be sure,
    although less significant if you consider clvl vs mlvl affects the whole
    chance to hit equation. Either way (1 WW or 20 WW or thereabouts), that
    percentage bonus to AR is going to mean nothing much at all unless you have
    good base AR from dex and/or AR items, so if you're going base AR and taking
    resist charms instead of AR charms, so you're not really adding much value
    pumping up WW to get a higher percentage boost from a base AR of next to
    nothing.

    But, yes, I suppose a few extra in WW would be a nice boost, and it's
    basically "free", since once you have Fury, Lycanthropy and a Spirit maxed,
    you have points to play with, and they might as well go somewhere, and every
    player is going to have *some* AR boosting gear by the time they've progressed
    a character, surely, unless they're not picking up and IDing any items, or
    gambling.

    For Fire Claws, either in a specialist build, or as a secondary skill for PI
    killing (as shiftlet outlined) however, it's significantly different (rabies
    numbers left as an exercise for the reader).

    20 Fire Claws + 1 Werewolf = 335% AR (FC) + 50% AR (WW) = +385% AR = 4.85
    times base AR
    20 Fire Claws + 10 Werewolf = 335% AR (FC) + 185% AR (WW) = +520% AR = 6.2
    times base AR
    20 Fire Claws + 20 Werewolf = 335% AR (FC) + 335% AR (WW) = +670% AR = 7.70
    times base AR

    Here, if we compare 1 WW (with 20 FC) against 20 WW (again, with 20 FC), we're
    comparing 4.85 times base AR vs 7.70 base AR, a 58% improvement, again at the
    cost of 19 skill points. Still a decent boost, to be sure, but worth giving
    up 19 points that could be used to pump FC damage synergies and/or your
    spirit? I'm not convinced. For a build using both Fury *and* Fire Claws,
    it's a bit better, because you can argue that the extra points in WW are
    giving you a double whammy effect (boosting the attack rating of both skills)

    But the thing is, as soon as you start factoring even a point or two of
    +skills items, the relative increase in AR from those extra points in WW goes
    down. Or, as discussed once you get enough AR sources (and as I said, even
    just three or four good AR grand charms, still leaving you dozens of slots for
    resist charms if you wish), is going to get your AR to a point where the
    percentage increase becomes less significant. Going further up the "wealth"
    curve, throw in a source of enchant (e.g. demon limb) and the extra %AR from
    those points in WW becomes even less beneficial.

    Okay, and that's about the limit of D2 analysis I feel like doing on a game
    I'm hardly even playing. ;-)
  46. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    My my, doesn't Stephen van Ham <svanham@xtra.co.nz> look good in that
    trenchcoat:

    >20 Fury + 1 Werewolf = +183% AR (Fury) + +50% AR (WW) = +283% AR = 3.83 times
    >base AR

    That should be 3.33 times base AR, so that improves your argument a little.
    ;-) So your best case AR scenario is an 85% AR improvement comparing 1 WW
    with 20 WW (again, assuming Fury was maxed in both cases). Actually, I
    suppose it looks even better if you put no points in a combat skill, but let's
    be reasonable.
  47. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 10:50:28 +1300, Stephen van Ham wrote:

    > My my, doesn't Stephen van Ham <svanham@xtra.co.nz> look good in that
    > trenchcoat:
    >
    >>20 Fury + 1 Werewolf = +183% AR (Fury) + +50% AR (WW) = +283% AR = 3.83 times
    >>base AR
    >
    > That should be 3.33 times base AR, so that improves your argument a little.
    > ;-) So your best case AR scenario is an 85% AR improvement comparing 1 WW
    > with 20 WW (again, assuming Fury was maxed in both cases). Actually, I
    > suppose it looks even better if you put no points in a combat skill, but let's
    > be reasonable.

    I hope I didn't give the impression that "my argument" is to max or
    almost max WW.
    I explicity states the reverse of that in this thread and others,
    and noted that the many guides saying to do that without qualification
    are just wrong.

    My related points in this thread were
    a) that whether more than 1 pt. in WW is needed for Fury will be an
    AR issue and not an attack speed issue (at least once WW gets to
    lvl 3-4 after plus skills).
    b) the answer to the AR issue depends on your specific gear and also what
    secondary skills you want to use (e.g. you need more if you want to use
    Feral Rage)
    c) most people are going to want more than 1 pt. in WW even for Fury
    (as I posted above, even small increases in chance to hit have a
    big effect on avg. damage).

    Though a lot of technical issues were covered, the majority of
    the debate mainly hinged on what is a reasonable operational
    definition for "most" in point c) above. My version of
    most didn't include people with gear to get 5.5K AR for Feral
    Rage with just one pt. in Feral Rage and WW.

    Moving on to other issues, I've actually got a few more
    interesting questions about WW builds.

    Q1: Does the Hunger skill remove 75% of all damage or just
    physical damage?

    If it was just physical damage then
    using Gimmershred with Hunger might be a good solution
    for the Druid in OK-infested areas, and having Gimmers
    on switch to use with Fury is already good for dealing
    with PIs in other areas.

    Q2: If my char has a "Beast" runeword weapon, +6 to
    Summoning skills, +4 to Druid skills, +2 to general skills,
    and points in Dire Wolves but not Grizzly, what if any
    damage boost to Dire Wolves synergy will I get from the
    grizzly charges on the weapon and what level of Fanaticism
    will the wolves benefit from?
  48. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    Hi,

    Last2Know <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in
    news:pan.2005.02.28.22.16.46.617354@yahoo.com:
    >
    > Q2: If my char has a "Beast" runeword weapon, +6 to
    > Summoning skills, +4 to Druid skills, +2 to general skills,
    > and points in Dire Wolves but not Grizzly, what if any
    > damage boost to Dire Wolves synergy will I get from the
    > grizzly charges on the weapon and what level of Fanaticism
    > will the wolves benefit from?

    afaik, auras from items aren't increased by +skills, not even by +all.
    Non-char skills from items can only be increased by +all skills. OTOH,
    auras and charges from items gain from existing synergies. If you equip a
    necro with Stone armor with level 16 clay golem, this is boosted by points
    in Golem Mastery. My barb uses +1 Vengeance from Kingslayer, which is
    boosted to 4 or 5 by his +all skill items.

    If non-char specific skills are used on that special char like here, I'd
    guess it would be added to the skill itself.

    Regards,

    Oliver
  49. Archived from groups: alt.games.diablo (More info?)

    "Last2Know" <grokkalot@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2005.02.28.22.16.46.617354@yahoo.com...
    > Q2: If my char has a "Beast" runeword weapon, +6 to
    > Summoning skills, +4 to Druid skills, +2 to general skills,
    > and points in Dire Wolves but not Grizzly, what if any
    > damage boost to Dire Wolves synergy will I get from the
    > grizzly charges on the weapon

    Your wolves would get the same synergy boost they would get if you had 13
    natural points in Summon Grizzly.

    > and what level of Fanaticism will the wolves benefit from?

    Assuming you're not partied with someone who has a higher level of
    Fanatacism, your wolves would benefit from a Fana of lvl 9. The aura is set,
    it does not change.
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