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Access Marina Wireless Within Condo

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Our marina has wireless internet b/g available to 170 boats. It is also
available to immediately adjacent condos. If you are willing to use your PC
next to the front window, a USB tin cantenna or a Hawking USB wireless g
device with small directional antenna (about $70) works well.

For a condo owner who would like to use wireless within their condo, the
signal is not strong enough. For them I am thinking of recommending some
kind of wireless bridge with a directional antenna connected via Ethernet
cable to a standard WAP such as the Linksys WRT54G which I use.

My question is what wireless bridge or device that can function as a
bridge - mfg and model - would you suggest? Also what directional antenna
would you suggest?

Of course, low cost is good!

Thanks.

--
Bob Alston
Home: 918.494.4913
Lake: 231.893.8044
BobAlston9@AOL.com
http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/


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6 answers Last reply
More about access marina wireless condo
  1. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:18:22 GMT, "Bob Alston" <bobalston9
    NOSPAM@aol.com> wrote:

    >Our marina has wireless internet b/g available to 170 boats. It is also
    >available to immediately adjacent condos. If you are willing to use your PC
    >next to the front window, a USB tin cantenna or a Hawking USB wireless g
    >device with small directional antenna (about $70) works well.
    >
    >For a condo owner who would like to use wireless within their condo, the
    >signal is not strong enough. For them I am thinking of recommending some
    >kind of wireless bridge with a directional antenna connected via Ethernet
    >cable to a standard WAP such as the Linksys WRT54G which I use.
    >
    >My question is what wireless bridge or device that can function as a
    >bridge - mfg and model - would you suggest? Also what directional antenna
    >would you suggest?
    >
    >Of course, low cost is good!

    Good, fast, cheap. Pick two.

    The basic decision is whether to use a store and forwared repeater, or
    two back to back radios.

    For example, a pair of back to back DLink DWL-900AP+ or Linksys WAP54G
    wireless bridges would work. The one connecting to the marina system
    would be set in the "client" mode, while the other one would be set to
    the "access point" mode. This is what you describe above. This is
    nice because you can position the access point end at some conventient
    location within the condo. You can still use a directional antenna
    toward the marina on the client radio, and use an omni on the access
    point. Of course, they should be on different channels. However, you
    will need a CAT5 ethernet cable between units.

    The DWL-900AP+ and WAP54G also do the repeater thing, so you can
    experiment. However, I expect problems. Store and forward repeaters
    cut your bandwidth in half. Since it's on the same frequency as the
    marina system, your inside condo laptops will constitute a source of
    interference. With a repeater, you may need to construct a single
    antenna that will provide both directional gain towards the marina,
    and also cover the inside of the condo. With a dual antenna
    (diversity) unit, such as the WAP54G in repeater mode, you could have
    one antenna pointed at the marina, and the other an omni for covering
    the condo[1]. However, location of the access point may still be a
    challenge.

    My limited experience with the repeater mode on DWL-810+ and
    DWL-900AP+ has not been good. Performance was erratic and tended to
    "lurch" in bursts due to the interference caused by the client radios
    and other users on the "backhaul" channel. However, I never bothered
    to troubleshoot the exact cause or find a solution as this was just my
    tinkering.

    I would go with the back to back radios. As for cheap, well... what's
    your time worth? Two radios are a no brainer that's known to work. A
    repeater strikes me as a challenge.


    [1] A problem with using two antennas directional in a repeater is
    that it might be even slower than the theoretical half your bandwidth.
    That's because the algorithm for diversity reception is based upon
    which antenna has received the last packet. If nothing is received,
    then the radio times out and starts scanning both antennas
    alternately. My guess is the timeout delay is about 100msec. You
    would never notice it in access point mode when moving around the
    house, as it would not switch very often. However, running as a
    repeater, where the destination is always on one antenna, and the
    client is always on the other, requires that it switch back and forth
    for every last lousy packet. It wasn't made to do that and will add
    the switching delay to every packet. I've only tried this only once
    and found that I could barely get 50kbits/sec thruput on an 11Mbit/sec
    association. In other words, the dual antenna repeater idea may not
    work as expected. However, I may have screwed up somewhere, so it's
    worth trying.


    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
    150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558
  2. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    I just set up the same network as your looking for. Here is the stuff I
    used.

    1 Dlink 624 Router
    3 Dlink AP2100 set to bridge mode
    1 Dlink 524 Router in one house so he can use the AP for his laptop. 1 mile
    out.
    1 10/100 hub other house two miles out
    1 sector antennas my house - Superpass SPdg16t2
    2 small grid antennas - Model: HG2415G Hyperlink

    This set up works better that we ever thought. I get about two mile range
    now. Tested at two mile downloads are great.

    Thanks
    DD


    "Bob Alston" <bobalston9 NOSPAM@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:OapTc.4209$io1.824@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
    > Our marina has wireless internet b/g available to 170 boats. It is also
    > available to immediately adjacent condos. If you are willing to use your
    PC
    > next to the front window, a USB tin cantenna or a Hawking USB wireless g
    > device with small directional antenna (about $70) works well.
    >
    > For a condo owner who would like to use wireless within their condo, the
    > signal is not strong enough. For them I am thinking of recommending some
    > kind of wireless bridge with a directional antenna connected via Ethernet
    > cable to a standard WAP such as the Linksys WRT54G which I use.
    >
    > My question is what wireless bridge or device that can function as a
    > bridge - mfg and model - would you suggest? Also what directional antenna
    > would you suggest?
    >
    > Of course, low cost is good!
    >
    > Thanks.
    >
    > --
    > Bob Alston
    > Home: 918.494.4913
    > Lake: 231.893.8044
    > BobAlston9@AOL.com
    > http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/
    >
    >
    > ---
    > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    > Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 8/11/2004
    >
    >
  3. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    "Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message
    news:7hash0pdd0p2kb9fi6r00rk70cnl4jdmtn@4ax.com...
    > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:18:22 GMT, "Bob Alston" <bobalston9
    > NOSPAM@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    > >Our marina has wireless internet b/g available to 170 boats. It is also
    > >available to immediately adjacent condos. If you are willing to use your
    PC
    > >next to the front window, a USB tin cantenna or a Hawking USB wireless g
    > >device with small directional antenna (about $70) works well.
    > >
    > >For a condo owner who would like to use wireless within their condo, the
    > >signal is not strong enough. For them I am thinking of recommending
    some
    > >kind of wireless bridge with a directional antenna connected via Ethernet
    > >cable to a standard WAP such as the Linksys WRT54G which I use.
    > >
    > >My question is what wireless bridge or device that can function as a
    > >bridge - mfg and model - would you suggest? Also what directional
    antenna
    > >would you suggest?
    > >
    > >Of course, low cost is good!
    >
    > Good, fast, cheap. Pick two.
    >
    > The basic decision is whether to use a store and forwared repeater, or
    > two back to back radios.
    >
    > For example, a pair of back to back DLink DWL-900AP+ or Linksys WAP54G
    > wireless bridges would work. The one connecting to the marina system
    > would be set in the "client" mode, while the other one would be set to
    > the "access point" mode. This is what you describe above. This is
    > nice because you can position the access point end at some conventient
    > location within the condo. You can still use a directional antenna
    > toward the marina on the client radio, and use an omni on the access
    > point. Of course, they should be on different channels. However, you
    > will need a CAT5 ethernet cable between units.
    >
    > The DWL-900AP+ and WAP54G also do the repeater thing, so you can
    > experiment. However, I expect problems. Store and forward repeaters
    > cut your bandwidth in half. Since it's on the same frequency as the
    > marina system, your inside condo laptops will constitute a source of
    > interference. With a repeater, you may need to construct a single
    > antenna that will provide both directional gain towards the marina,
    > and also cover the inside of the condo. With a dual antenna
    > (diversity) unit, such as the WAP54G in repeater mode, you could have
    > one antenna pointed at the marina, and the other an omni for covering
    > the condo[1]. However, location of the access point may still be a
    > challenge.
    >
    > My limited experience with the repeater mode on DWL-810+ and
    > DWL-900AP+ has not been good. Performance was erratic and tended to
    > "lurch" in bursts due to the interference caused by the client radios
    > and other users on the "backhaul" channel. However, I never bothered
    > to troubleshoot the exact cause or find a solution as this was just my
    > tinkering.
    >
    > I would go with the back to back radios. As for cheap, well... what's
    > your time worth? Two radios are a no brainer that's known to work. A
    > repeater strikes me as a challenge.
    >
    >
    > [1] A problem with using two antennas directional in a repeater is
    > that it might be even slower than the theoretical half your bandwidth.
    > That's because the algorithm for diversity reception is based upon
    > which antenna has received the last packet. If nothing is received,
    > then the radio times out and starts scanning both antennas
    > alternately. My guess is the timeout delay is about 100msec. You
    > would never notice it in access point mode when moving around the
    > house, as it would not switch very often. However, running as a
    > repeater, where the destination is always on one antenna, and the
    > client is always on the other, requires that it switch back and forth
    > for every last lousy packet. It wasn't made to do that and will add
    > the switching delay to every packet. I've only tried this only once
    > and found that I could barely get 50kbits/sec thruput on an 11Mbit/sec
    > association. In other words, the dual antenna repeater idea may not
    > work as expected. However, I may have screwed up somewhere, so it's
    > worth trying.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
    > 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    > Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

    Thanks Jeff. You da man!

    More questions:

    1) Any reason why a WAP54G could be coupled with a WRT54G to allow ethernet
    connected end-user devices?

    2) Would you use the WAP54G or the WRT54G with 3rd party firmware?

    3) Suggestions for good directional antennas for use on the WAP54G?

    --
    Bob Alston


    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 8/11/2004
  4. Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

    On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:18:12 GMT, "Bob Alston" <bobalston9
    NOSPAM@aol.com> wrote:

    >More questions:

    Groan. It never ends...

    >1) Any reason why a WAP54G could be coupled with a WRT54G to allow ethernet
    >connected end-user devices?

    Yes. The connection to the marina WISP will require a bridge/radio
    that can do a "client mode". The WAP54G and DWL-900AP+ have such a
    mode. The WRT54G does not. Basically, the client radio can be
    anything that has a client mode including various "game adapters".

    You build the system in two steps. First, setup the client radio and
    antenna to connect to the marina WISP using a direct ethernet
    connection to the client radio. When that's working and stable, add
    the indoor access point for coverage throughout the condo.

    >2) Would you use the WAP54G or the WRT54G with 3rd party firmware?

    No. While the do it thyself software is kinda nifty for running a hot
    spot, I don't think the added features would offer many benifits to an
    unsophistocated user, such as the marina condo user.

    >3) Suggestions for good directional antennas for use on the WAP54G?

    Methinks aesthetics will a major concern with such antennas. That
    eliminated dishes and leaves panel antennas. Methinks you'll need all
    the gain you can afford, so methinks a 14dBi panel antenna is about
    right. However, I'm guessing as you need to estimate the gain
    requirements based upon available signal strength, range, power
    output, obstructions, your coax type and length, etc. If you can find
    out the WISP tx power at the antenna, their antenna gain, and the
    range requirement, you can calculate the required gain to get a decent
    fade margin (10dB absolute minimum, 20-30dB target value).

    See:
    http://www.fab-corp.com/J1.htm
    http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/antennas_2400_in.php

    http://www.maxrad.com/cgi/maxrad_products_ind.cgi?product=10209&catalog=10004

    Watch out for the size of these antennas as the 14-19dBi flavour are
    rather large. Also, keep the coax short. Use LMR-400 for coax.

    I don't really have a favorite panel antenna manufacturer. I suse
    Maxrad panels because they're cheap and a have a decent low cost
    source. Others will work just as well.


    --
    # Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
    # 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    # jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
    # 831.421.6491 digital_pager jeffl@cruzio.com AE6KS
  5. Setup a switch on the original Internet connection which services the marina and then run cables from that switch through conduit to Ubiquiti directional radios pointing into the condos. I hope this helps!

    David Dean
    http://cobianet.com
  6. This topic has been closed by Proximon
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