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Access Marina Wireless Within Condo

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Anonymous
a b F Wireless
August 14, 2004 6:18:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

Our marina has wireless internet b/g available to 170 boats. It is also
available to immediately adjacent condos. If you are willing to use your PC
next to the front window, a USB tin cantenna or a Hawking USB wireless g
device with small directional antenna (about $70) works well.

For a condo owner who would like to use wireless within their condo, the
signal is not strong enough. For them I am thinking of recommending some
kind of wireless bridge with a directional antenna connected via Ethernet
cable to a standard WAP such as the Linksys WRT54G which I use.

My question is what wireless bridge or device that can function as a
bridge - mfg and model - would you suggest? Also what directional antenna
would you suggest?

Of course, low cost is good!

Thanks.

--
Bob Alston
Home: 918.494.4913
Lake: 231.893.8044
BobAlston9@AOL.com
http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/


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Anonymous
a b F Wireless
August 14, 2004 6:18:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:18:22 GMT, "Bob Alston" <bobalston9
NOSPAM@aol.com> wrote:

>Our marina has wireless internet b/g available to 170 boats. It is also
>available to immediately adjacent condos. If you are willing to use your PC
>next to the front window, a USB tin cantenna or a Hawking USB wireless g
>device with small directional antenna (about $70) works well.
>
>For a condo owner who would like to use wireless within their condo, the
>signal is not strong enough. For them I am thinking of recommending some
>kind of wireless bridge with a directional antenna connected via Ethernet
>cable to a standard WAP such as the Linksys WRT54G which I use.
>
>My question is what wireless bridge or device that can function as a
>bridge - mfg and model - would you suggest? Also what directional antenna
>would you suggest?
>
>Of course, low cost is good!

Good, fast, cheap. Pick two.

The basic decision is whether to use a store and forwared repeater, or
two back to back radios.

For example, a pair of back to back DLink DWL-900AP+ or Linksys WAP54G
wireless bridges would work. The one connecting to the marina system
would be set in the "client" mode, while the other one would be set to
the "access point" mode. This is what you describe above. This is
nice because you can position the access point end at some conventient
location within the condo. You can still use a directional antenna
toward the marina on the client radio, and use an omni on the access
point. Of course, they should be on different channels. However, you
will need a CAT5 ethernet cable between units.

The DWL-900AP+ and WAP54G also do the repeater thing, so you can
experiment. However, I expect problems. Store and forward repeaters
cut your bandwidth in half. Since it's on the same frequency as the
marina system, your inside condo laptops will constitute a source of
interference. With a repeater, you may need to construct a single
antenna that will provide both directional gain towards the marina,
and also cover the inside of the condo. With a dual antenna
(diversity) unit, such as the WAP54G in repeater mode, you could have
one antenna pointed at the marina, and the other an omni for covering
the condo[1]. However, location of the access point may still be a
challenge.

My limited experience with the repeater mode on DWL-810+ and
DWL-900AP+ has not been good. Performance was erratic and tended to
"lurch" in bursts due to the interference caused by the client radios
and other users on the "backhaul" channel. However, I never bothered
to troubleshoot the exact cause or find a solution as this was just my
tinkering.

I would go with the back to back radios. As for cheap, well... what's
your time worth? Two radios are a no brainer that's known to work. A
repeater strikes me as a challenge.


[1] A problem with using two antennas directional in a repeater is
that it might be even slower than the theoretical half your bandwidth.
That's because the algorithm for diversity reception is based upon
which antenna has received the last packet. If nothing is received,
then the radio times out and starts scanning both antennas
alternately. My guess is the timeout delay is about 100msec. You
would never notice it in access point mode when moving around the
house, as it would not switch very often. However, running as a
repeater, where the destination is always on one antenna, and the
client is always on the other, requires that it switch back and forth
for every last lousy packet. It wasn't made to do that and will add
the switching delay to every packet. I've only tried this only once
and found that I could barely get 50kbits/sec thruput on an 11Mbit/sec
association. In other words, the dual antenna repeater idea may not
work as expected. However, I may have screwed up somewhere, so it's
worth trying.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
August 14, 2004 6:18:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

I just set up the same network as your looking for. Here is the stuff I
used.

1 Dlink 624 Router
3 Dlink AP2100 set to bridge mode
1 Dlink 524 Router in one house so he can use the AP for his laptop. 1 mile
out.
1 10/100 hub other house two miles out
1 sector antennas my house - Superpass SPdg16t2
2 small grid antennas - Model: HG2415G Hyperlink

This set up works better that we ever thought. I get about two mile range
now. Tested at two mile downloads are great.

Thanks
DD


"Bob Alston" <bobalston9 NOSPAM@aol.com> wrote in message
news:o apTc.4209$io1.824@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> Our marina has wireless internet b/g available to 170 boats. It is also
> available to immediately adjacent condos. If you are willing to use your
PC
> next to the front window, a USB tin cantenna or a Hawking USB wireless g
> device with small directional antenna (about $70) works well.
>
> For a condo owner who would like to use wireless within their condo, the
> signal is not strong enough. For them I am thinking of recommending some
> kind of wireless bridge with a directional antenna connected via Ethernet
> cable to a standard WAP such as the Linksys WRT54G which I use.
>
> My question is what wireless bridge or device that can function as a
> bridge - mfg and model - would you suggest? Also what directional antenna
> would you suggest?
>
> Of course, low cost is good!
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Bob Alston
> Home: 918.494.4913
> Lake: 231.893.8044
> BobAlston9@AOL.com
> http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 8/11/2004
>
>
Related resources
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
August 14, 2004 8:18:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote in message
news:7hash0pdd0p2kb9fi6r00rk70cnl4jdmtn@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:18:22 GMT, "Bob Alston" <bobalston9
> NOSPAM@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >Our marina has wireless internet b/g available to 170 boats. It is also
> >available to immediately adjacent condos. If you are willing to use your
PC
> >next to the front window, a USB tin cantenna or a Hawking USB wireless g
> >device with small directional antenna (about $70) works well.
> >
> >For a condo owner who would like to use wireless within their condo, the
> >signal is not strong enough. For them I am thinking of recommending
some
> >kind of wireless bridge with a directional antenna connected via Ethernet
> >cable to a standard WAP such as the Linksys WRT54G which I use.
> >
> >My question is what wireless bridge or device that can function as a
> >bridge - mfg and model - would you suggest? Also what directional
antenna
> >would you suggest?
> >
> >Of course, low cost is good!
>
> Good, fast, cheap. Pick two.
>
> The basic decision is whether to use a store and forwared repeater, or
> two back to back radios.
>
> For example, a pair of back to back DLink DWL-900AP+ or Linksys WAP54G
> wireless bridges would work. The one connecting to the marina system
> would be set in the "client" mode, while the other one would be set to
> the "access point" mode. This is what you describe above. This is
> nice because you can position the access point end at some conventient
> location within the condo. You can still use a directional antenna
> toward the marina on the client radio, and use an omni on the access
> point. Of course, they should be on different channels. However, you
> will need a CAT5 ethernet cable between units.
>
> The DWL-900AP+ and WAP54G also do the repeater thing, so you can
> experiment. However, I expect problems. Store and forward repeaters
> cut your bandwidth in half. Since it's on the same frequency as the
> marina system, your inside condo laptops will constitute a source of
> interference. With a repeater, you may need to construct a single
> antenna that will provide both directional gain towards the marina,
> and also cover the inside of the condo. With a dual antenna
> (diversity) unit, such as the WAP54G in repeater mode, you could have
> one antenna pointed at the marina, and the other an omni for covering
> the condo[1]. However, location of the access point may still be a
> challenge.
>
> My limited experience with the repeater mode on DWL-810+ and
> DWL-900AP+ has not been good. Performance was erratic and tended to
> "lurch" in bursts due to the interference caused by the client radios
> and other users on the "backhaul" channel. However, I never bothered
> to troubleshoot the exact cause or find a solution as this was just my
> tinkering.
>
> I would go with the back to back radios. As for cheap, well... what's
> your time worth? Two radios are a no brainer that's known to work. A
> repeater strikes me as a challenge.
>
>
> [1] A problem with using two antennas directional in a repeater is
> that it might be even slower than the theoretical half your bandwidth.
> That's because the algorithm for diversity reception is based upon
> which antenna has received the last packet. If nothing is received,
> then the radio times out and starts scanning both antennas
> alternately. My guess is the timeout delay is about 100msec. You
> would never notice it in access point mode when moving around the
> house, as it would not switch very often. However, running as a
> repeater, where the destination is always on one antenna, and the
> client is always on the other, requires that it switch back and forth
> for every last lousy packet. It wasn't made to do that and will add
> the switching delay to every packet. I've only tried this only once
> and found that I could barely get 50kbits/sec thruput on an 11Mbit/sec
> association. In other words, the dual antenna repeater idea may not
> work as expected. However, I may have screwed up somewhere, so it's
> worth trying.
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 AE6KS 831-336-2558

Thanks Jeff. You da man!

More questions:

1) Any reason why a WAP54G could be coupled with a WRT54G to allow ethernet
connected end-user devices?

2) Would you use the WAP54G or the WRT54G with 3rd party firmware?

3) Suggestions for good directional antennas for use on the WAP54G?

--
Bob Alston


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.737 / Virus Database: 491 - Release Date: 8/11/2004
Anonymous
a b F Wireless
August 15, 2004 8:58:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.internet.wireless (More info?)

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:18:12 GMT, "Bob Alston" <bobalston9
NOSPAM@aol.com> wrote:

>More questions:

Groan. It never ends...

>1) Any reason why a WAP54G could be coupled with a WRT54G to allow ethernet
>connected end-user devices?

Yes. The connection to the marina WISP will require a bridge/radio
that can do a "client mode". The WAP54G and DWL-900AP+ have such a
mode. The WRT54G does not. Basically, the client radio can be
anything that has a client mode including various "game adapters".

You build the system in two steps. First, setup the client radio and
antenna to connect to the marina WISP using a direct ethernet
connection to the client radio. When that's working and stable, add
the indoor access point for coverage throughout the condo.

>2) Would you use the WAP54G or the WRT54G with 3rd party firmware?

No. While the do it thyself software is kinda nifty for running a hot
spot, I don't think the added features would offer many benifits to an
unsophistocated user, such as the marina condo user.

>3) Suggestions for good directional antennas for use on the WAP54G?

Methinks aesthetics will a major concern with such antennas. That
eliminated dishes and leaves panel antennas. Methinks you'll need all
the gain you can afford, so methinks a 14dBi panel antenna is about
right. However, I'm guessing as you need to estimate the gain
requirements based upon available signal strength, range, power
output, obstructions, your coax type and length, etc. If you can find
out the WISP tx power at the antenna, their antenna gain, and the
range requirement, you can calculate the required gain to get a decent
fade margin (10dB absolute minimum, 20-30dB target value).

See:
http://www.fab-corp.com/J1.htm
http://www.hyperlinktech.com/web/antennas_2400_in.php

http://www.maxrad.com/cgi/maxrad_products_ind.cgi?produ...

Watch out for the size of these antennas as the 14-19dBi flavour are
rather large. Also, keep the coax short. Use LMR-400 for coax.

I don't really have a favorite panel antenna manufacturer. I suse
Maxrad panels because they're cheap and a have a decent low cost
source. Others will work just as well.


--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
# jeffl@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# 831.421.6491 digital_pager jeffl@cruzio.com AE6KS
October 6, 2011 1:54:22 AM

Setup a switch on the original Internet connection which services the marina and then run cables from that switch through conduit to Ubiquiti directional radios pointing into the condos. I hope this helps!

David Dean
http://cobianet.com
October 6, 2011 6:41:48 AM

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