Massively Multiplayer: Fantasy vs. Sci-Fi

[tmeacham]

Article by Travis Meacham.

It seems you can't throw a stone without hitting a fantasy MMO and yet the first Warhammer MMO we'll get is the fantasy one. Do we really need more dwarves and elves fighting skeletons and spiders?

http://www.tomsgames.com/us/2008/04/15/mmo_fantasy_vs_scifi/

 

[Fireheart]

Well, I've played a few MMOs as well and I agree, there's a lot of 'Orcs & Elves' out there. Of the ones I've played, DDO is the only 'Fantasy' style MMO that didn't have you collecting bloody trophies to hang on the quest-giver's wall, or go into the soup. Actually, I'd say my main problem with DDO is actually a lack of content, but that's not germane to this discussion.

I couldn't say why 'SciFi' hasn't had any blockbuster games... Probably just haven't hit the right formula yet.
That said, I'll happily toss in a vote for my current game - City of Heroes. Gameplay is not too complicated, you can usually accomplish some significant goal/mission in 20-30 minutes of play, or spend an hour tweaking the costume creator to get the look you want. Better still, while there are Hunt missions where you 'arrest' some number of a particular sort of bad-guys, at least you don't have to collect their 'scalps' to prove your power.
In fact, there's no 'pause to loot' involved at all - except when you're on a 'rescue/collect/destroy the item' mission. This means that you can focus on your battles and clear out the thugs without worrying that the bodies will de-res before you have a chance to clean up. The bodies will certainly de-res, but you never have to interact with them after they're defeated - your rewards are automatic.

I've been cycling through Free Trials of games, sorta looking for my next one, but haven't really found it yet, so suggestions are welcome.

Be Well!
Fireheart

 

[spuddyt]

I have only ever played one MMO - and that was WoW using a guest pass, by the time it was up, i was bored, but i had also come to understand why people pay koreans to powerlevel them up (no its not racism, its accuracy), and its so they can go on raids without doing the grinding - becuase that was the only thing i found fun, pissing around in the starting area for humans as a lvl 10 orc running from guards every now and then.

 

[xxsk8er101xx]

Article by Travis Meacham.

It seems you can't throw a stone without hitting a fantasy MMO and yet the first Warhammer MMO we'll get is the fantasy one. Do we really need more dwarves and elves fighting skeletons and spiders?

http://www.tomsgames.com/us/2008/04/15/mmo_fantasy_vs_scifi/

I disagree with the article completely.

The reason why SWG isn't doing well isn't because it's sci-fi it's because SOE completely ruined it. People like killing things and getting loot. People like obtaining rare recipes to make unique items. People like story lines to follow. People like raiding and socializing in the raid. SOE took all of that out to please the minority. So now all you have left is the minority. SWG is boring because it doesn't have any grind. Nothing to aim for. Nothing to shoot for and be proud to have it. The grind creates the goal. With out a grind there is no goal. No sense of accomplishment to be proud of. People crave that feeling. With out it the MMO fails. I don't know of a successful MMO without the grind.

Matrix didn't have a huge following to begin with. It did poorly in the box office. Both the 2nd and 3rd movie. That's a poor game to even review.

 

[sezyboy]

The problem the article is missing is that Warhammer Online is based on another famous MMO called Dark Age of Camelot. Quite a few similiar game mechanics from DaoC that make this game different from other MMOs.

I dont mind the grind in a game as long as I have fun out of it. The only way to do that in my opinion is to take it out on other players. Unfortunately most MMOs dont have a fun PvP system. Then came DaoC, the holy grail of PvP, where all of a sudden there is 3 sides and im seiging a castle with my pimped out lvl 50 albion sorc against 400 players raining down crap on my head.

Or in the middle of a night, a nice hibernian decides to drop excalibur right in front of the keep to backstab midguard and to balance out the power struggle. The fun times of camping out in Darkness falls and slaughtering 100s of low levels while they are not paying attention.

If they just copy Daoc mechanics i would be crazy happy. But they are improving on them so i definitely up to trying the game. No point to have leet gear unless you can change the world right? Thats what makes Warhammer exciting for me.

 

[aotfk17]

haha I could easily say that all FPS are the same, or every strategy game is the same, lets play Command and Conquer, naw lets play Age of Empires 3. bah Starcraft 2 is coming out.. There all the same game but with different themes I think this artical was LAME and immature. Sounds to me like your just bored of video games. What makes the new games different is new tactics new challenges, different things to explore and conquer.
I really should just say I could take out MMO and put in FPS games in your article. I don't think it was a thought out article.

 

[Saedeas]

There are a few important things you missed in the article. For one, the reason the Warhammer and Warcraft Universes look the same is because Warcraft is nearly a direct copy of Warhammer (original game was supposed to be a Warhammer game, but they lost Games Workshop's support), and that the Warhammer Universe is much darker. You also missed out on the reason Warhammer is going to be fun, the pvp. The stuff you hate about fantasy MMO's (i.e. killing spiders and such) is definitely not the main focus of this game. The main focus is to have amazing full scale city seiges and epic keep battles.

A little more research on Warhammer would have been nice. You can level through pvp or pve and as for that oh noes I has to kill 8 Dire Wolves!!!01! comment, they are putting a system in place where no matter when you kill an enemy if you accept a kill quest for that, the previous kills are counted, which should considerably ease up those quests.

Basically, Warhammer Online is trying to address all the reasons the article is complaining about fantasy MMO's and trying to fix them. I really wish this article was rewritten taking these things into account.

Just my two cents.

Edit: And as for fantasy being a tired boring genre. No game out yet has captured the pvp feel that Warhammer seems to be going for. DAOC had the pvp, but not the same environment Warhammer does at all. It's basically like what I thought WOW was going to be when I first got it. Huge battles between the opposing sides over cities, chokepoints, and pretty much anything important. That's something the fantasy genre needs right now.

 

[tmeacham]

Matrix didn't have a huge following to begin with. It did poorly in the box office. Both the 2nd and 3rd movie. That's a poor game to even review.

Actually "The Matrix Reloaded" opened with $91 million and went on to gross $280 million. It stands as the number 2 highest grossing R-rated movie ever second to "The Passion of the Christ." Now "The Matrix Revolutions" didn't do as well and I think lead to a lot of lost interest in the The Matrix Online.

I don't know of a successful MMO without the grind.

And that's a problem. This kind of game is so expensive to make that no one is willing to really innovate anymore. The reason we have a "grind" is because the combat feels repetitive. That should be fixed.

The problem the article is missing is that Warhammer Online is based on another famous MMO called Dark Age of Camelot. Quite a few similiar game mechanics from DaoC that make this game different from other MMOs.

Actually I mentioned DaoC specifically in paragraph 5.

haha I could easily say that all FPS are the same, or every strategy game is the same, lets play Command and Conquer, naw lets play Age of Empires 3. bah Starcraft 2 is coming out.. There all the same game but with different themes

Really... Starcraft 2 and Age of Empires 3 are the same game... with the same tactics... really.

What makes the new games different is new tactics new challenges, different things to explore and conquer.

Hmm... this sounds familiar. Paragraph 6 of the article reads, "That's a bit of a loaded question, actually. Couldn't you say the same about single-player fantasy RPGs, WWII shooters and Madden football games? Yes, but each time a new game is released in one of those genres there are a number of improvements. Perhaps Warhammer Online will do the same and improve on the fantasy MMO formula, but it's that very formula that bores me."

Guys, I never said Warhammer Online was going to suck I just said there was nothing about it that excited me yet. Also keep in mind that it isn't out yet. Sure it's in beta at the moment but with an MMO you can never tell how it will all work until it's in the wild. Let's have this discussion again three months after it's been out and see where we are.

 

[coverfire]

Battlestar Galactica online would be a great sci-fi MMO if done correctly. If I'm not mistaken isn't there a Stargate MMO being developed as well?

And in honesty a GTA type online game could do very well if they kept to the correct formula for the type of game it is.

 

[creatorsid]

hmm....Necromunda MMO or fps. hell even RTS.

 

[choknuti]

I am a little confused here. I too love the warhammer 40k universe but I cannot imagine how they are going to pull off the play balancing. How would an imperial guardsman player compare to a space marine? Wouldn’t this lead to most players playing marines (both the imperial and chaos variety)? How would you play a tyranid? True my experience with the warhammer 40k universe is based only on the tabletop game, novels and relic’s RTS. I have never played Black Industries’ RPG. Would someone with a little knowledge on the system and how it works care to enlighten this ignorant plebeian? Please?
Oh almost forgot, For the Emperor!!

 

[sezyboy]

Actually I mentioned DaoC specifically in paragraph 5.

Yup you did sorry.

And about the balance, well if they are to make it close to the tabletop or codexes ....good luck to balancing.
I dont see the possibility of it as most people gonna roll a Space Marine. I would try something funny like, Necron/Tau/Tyranid/Eldar/Imperial, basically anything else.

Unless you get a squad of Guardsman, you are not gonna beat a Space Marine in any combat scenarios....actually a squad might not even cut it.

 

[aotfk17]

Really... Starcraft 2 and Age of Empires 3 are the same game... with the same tactics... really.

I'm not sure if you where agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. the only Huge different between Starcraft2 and age of empires 3 is the theme.. yes blizzard will be more innovated which make the game different. this guys saying "hey another troll to kill like all the other games". I don't care if you make it a 40k marine or a troll with ribbon wrapped around his neck,does that troll mean anything else cause it has a ribbon wrapped around his neck?? well maybe IF hes the named troll with a blue instead of a pink ribbon.the only thing that really changes is the graphics/theme. you still have your stealth units and your tank units. thats why its a generic name of this is a strategy game this is a FPS etc. Innovation is what keeps the same type of game New. whether its MMO or strategy based. and thats all i was pointing out there can be 100 different MMO with a different theme that play a lill different, and are basically the same game. He's saying he's tired of the theme, and yes AOE3 and SC2 have allot in common. Gather resource, build up your city, make an army, crush your foe<---GRINDING in a sense,not allot of difference in that perspective between AOE3 and SC2. Grinding in a MMO is what makes it an MMO, gaining power, or whatever bell or whistle you want to put on a game it will still play like a game you have played before. Grinding is what make MMOs' MMOs. This whole article is really generic like that, straight up LAME!!! he basically should have named the article "why i am tired of MMO with the fantasy theme". hes tired of the view/scenery. tell blizzard to make a Sci-fi MMO and it will have the same basic mechanics as any other MMO just wrapped up in a different theme.

Don't get me wrong i am not saying any of the games I've named are crappy games to play, they all play a little different in style, but are essentially the same MMO, FPS, Strategy, or MUD that you played a generic version of.

I love all games just need a change from FPS to an RPG, now thats a change in game play style, not to mention goals.

My advice to you sir is unplug, buy a Copy of Mass Effect and call me in the morning!!

 

[Pmid]

As several people are implying you’re probably not someone who should be reviewing these games. It does sound like you’re bored with them – not because of poor design but because you’ve been playing longer than you care to. I have no idea how old you are or how long you’ve been gaming but from the tone of your article I’m willing to bet you’re old enough to be at the point where you’re jaded by entertainment. That’s not a demographic developers are interested in creating games for, not when there’s scores of younger games coming into the market every day that won’t let out a long, dramatic sigh of exasperation when told to kill eight dire wolves for their tails. This industry has no intention or interest in keeping you entertained indefinitely and it’s ridiculous to expect otherwise unless you enjoy disappointment.

My recommendation – move on, but considering your chosen profession that’s probably not the most helpful advice.

 

[Sarcastic]

I am a little confused here. I too love the warhammer 40k universe but I cannot imagine how they are going to pull off the play balancing. How would an imperial guardsman player compare to a space marine? Wouldn’t this lead to most players playing marines (both the imperial and chaos variety)? How would you play a tyranid? True my experience with the warhammer 40k universe is based only on the tabletop game, novels and relic’s RTS. I have never played Black Industries’ RPG. Would someone with a little knowledge on the system and how it works care to enlighten this ignorant plebeian? Please?
Oh almost forgot, For the Emperor!!

Who is to say that all "Races" can play all "Classes" what if the IG are mostly mechnized or assasins? What if you simply pick a race and evolve your character through the "Leveling Process"? I do not think that a lvl 1 assault terminator will be a class choice durring the character creation process. The entire Warhammer world was created by Games Workshop. It is a tabletop strategy game and it is kinda a 2 part venture. You have the rule books and you have the action figures that you get to paint up to make them how you like. Games workshop is very much involved when there work gets put into a video game. I believe this is why the entire dawn of war series got a nice M rating. With the basis in mind think that a SM with a heavy bolter and heavy armor would be a lvl 50 character and a IG Guardsman would be a lvl 10 character. Also take into consideration even basic concepts in Dawn of war, for example the IG soldiers run faster then spacemarines. Then there is the element of almost every other MMO I have played. How is a gnome warrior just as effective as a Orc? Because the developer said they were. Okay this ends my rant...

 

[betrunken]

There are some different game out there, most of them are just not well advertised.

Take a look at POTBS(Pirates of The Burning Sea). Anyone heard of it? It's been out for a few months now. It is an MMO and does not fit the Sci-fi or Fantasy genre. It is a very fun game based around PvP. The main problem for the game was they had created to many servers to start so the population was spread to thin for the game mechanics to work correctly. They have recently fixed that with server merges going on right now.


If your looking for a game "outside" the box... try it! They have 14 day free trials available, just hop on the forums and ask if anyone would give you theres.(everyone got one from buying the game, and they just gave everyone 3 more)

 

[tmeacham]

RE: aotfk17 and PMid

You know my wife said much the same thing. She's a hardcore WoW player and we discuss what I don't like about MMOs almost on a daily basis. She claims that what I want out of an MMO isn't possible, but I still hope that someone out there can reinvigorate it.

But maybe you guys are right. Maybe a break is in order. I won't actively (meaning log in every night for several hours) play an MMO until it comes time to review Age of Conan. I think it's still slated for May.

 

[KiyoshiAphelion]

I'd just like to mention an upcoming MMO from NetDevil titled Jumpgate Evolution. Where FPS's are totally dominated by players who have invested time in honing their mouse/level-awareness "skill" and MMO players have invested their time into game "skill," Jumpgate Evolution chooses a bit of both worlds.

JGE is a hybrid space-sim/MMO with near-Newtonian physics. Think Wing-Commander or X-Wing vs TIE Fighter (space simulation) meets the special effects team at Battlestar Galactica with a side of economy/crafting (WoW/EVE/EnB/Elite) thrown in.

It's predecessor game, Jumpgate Classic, had a leveling system of 1-50 with your level restricting what ships were available. With your level 9 light fighter, a skilled pilot could kill, 1v1, any other player of a higher level than him, all the way to lvl 50. Balance was the key issue, and while ships became more powerful the higher level you were, tactics and pilot skill were always more important. A faster moving force of three lvl 9 light fighters could easily take down a force of three lvl 26 fighters if their skills were greater. Equalize the skills however, and the fighters would most likely win, still allowing those who invest time to maintain a slight edge over lower lvl pilots.

There's also no defined character classes. Your "class" is determined by what ship you choose to fly any given day. They all cost similar amounts and equipment further defines your role in combat. Think of ships similar to class and equipment similar to a skill tree (WoW example). Do you buy lighter, more maneuverable engines/shields for quick strike actions or do you purchase heavier shields/guns and fly a heavier, more aggressive style? You choose what gear you use on any given day. There is no spending money to change your class, or needing to level up several different characters to experience different play-styles. You can do it any time you please.

Please, if you have any faith in the sci-fi genere or remember how much fun it was to play any of the above-mentioned games, you owe it to yourself to see the video on the front page of www.jumpgate-evolution.com. There really is a niche for every type of playstyle in this game, from carebear to hardcore PvPer.

 

[othercents]

What WOW has done is only the beginning however the next big MMO title to beat out WOW really needs a console following and cross all platforms. I say this because of EverQuest. We never thought anyone would get close to 500k like EQ much less break 1 million subscribers. Final Fantasy beat out EQ, but WOW has slaughtered them both. There is still room in the market for something bigger and it just take the right stuff.

We need something else like Virtual Reality (VR). Innovation that makes gaming a comfortable thing to do in the living room instead of the basement will take MMO to the next level past what WOW has done. Capturing the casual gamer, young gamer, and elite power gamer is very important. I see many times that WOW really didn't capture the elite power gamers because it was too simple of a game. There were many of my friends that said WOW would fail because of it. However WOW flourished because the game was more simple than what was already on the market.

Did it matter that it was a Warcraft game? I don't think so. Big title names don't really do much for the game just like movies. Most current players never played Frozen Throne or any of the WC3 games. It is very hard to bring one type of game (IE Warhammer) into a video game and still expect the players who loved the old format to fall in love with the new.

There is a DAOC following that will play WAR, but I would expect that it will only account for 50k users at most since the original players for DAOC and EQ have moved on with their lives and MMOs are not really part of it anymore. Even then I doubt if those players will stay long if there isn't something in DAOC that entices them. The rest has to come from really good gameplay, plot, and immersion into the game. I also expect a significant number of WOW players to move to a different game. Some WOW players are probably bored of the game and it is time to move on to something more complex.

I have played many MMOs starting with Ultima Online. Ultima was the most content rich of all the games I have played and gave you the ability to roll play as much or as little as you wanted. StarWars Galaxy was great, but riddled with bugs and with all the changes Sony made things just got more complicated. I think the best StarWars game would be a Jedi MMO putting Jedi against Sith. Most StarWars players could have cared less about the other classes. City of Heroes was cool, but by that time I was bored of the grind and that game required a bunch of grinding. I could name the rest of the games, but there are at least 30 or so MMOs that I have played some only for a few months and others for longer.

Other

 

[robwright]

I just want a good sci-fi MMO. I know I've harped on this a lot in articles and ST videos, but I can't help it. I'm not going to play a fantasy MMO. I just don't have any interest.

Star Wars Galaxies had potential, but come on -- Jedis, people! Jedis!!!!

I can't even talk about Star Trek right now.

I really thought that Imperator Online had potential but Mythic cancelled it.

A StarCraft MMO would be just what the doctor ordered.

WoW will never take me alive....

 

[Martell77]

The first MMO I played was Ultima Online. And I think it was the best game I have played to date. The graphics weren't great but the freedom was amazing. You could do anything the game offered without have to start a new charcter. You could change your skills at any time, you could decide your swordsman wasn't fun anymore and turn him into a mage. The possibilites were endless. Unlike most games like WoW where you have to choose to be a certain class and your charcter will never be anything but what they have decided that class to be. To change your fight style you have to start a new char.

The best part of of UO was NO QUESTS and you didn't level. You gained skill as you went, so unless you were at the top of the skill, you got more powerful as you went. Instead of grind to that next level.

I am currently playing WoW and must say, if your not in a raiding guild, its rather boring when you hit 70. The PVP battlegrounds are rehashed kids games (capture the flag, king of the hill, etc.) Only reason I play WoW is becuase of friends and family play it.

If Ultima online would open a server that took the game back to how it was in '99, I'd drop WoW in a heartbeat. The state of UO is sad, the "improvements" over the years have destroyed how the game was unique. UO wasn't about gear, it had 5 levels of weapons and 5 of armor, with only a few modifiers. Crafted items were on par with the second level of the magic items and was in high demand. Now, they have random item properties that are somewhat confusing, crafted items are junk, and the skill systems is totally broken not to mention the PVP system.

As for Sci-fi MMO's, I think the devs haven't hit the right balance and storyline. Warcraft has alot of lore behind it. Thats one thing that Blizzard does exceptional, the storyline has always been great (exception of the latest WoW stuff)

I tried LotR online, nice graphics, but just another guided quest chain. UO was freedom, you did what you wanted, when you wanted. The PVP was anytime- anywhere, outside of town. Many people complained about this, but it added intensity to the game, you never could tell what the intentions of the char coming toward you were.

Not to mention how cool it was owning a house.

 

[BigMac]

I just want a good sci-fi MMO. I know I've harped on this a lot in articles and ST videos, but I can't help it. I'm not going to play a fantasy MMO. I just don't have any interest.

Star Wars Galaxies had potential, but come on -- Jedis, people! Jedis!!!!

I can't even talk about Star Trek right now.

I really thought that Imperator Online had potential but Mythic cancelled it.

A StarCraft MMO would be just what the doctor ordered.

WoW will never take me alive....

Have you tried Tabula Rasa? And if so what did you think of it? Travis reviewed it and he liked it pretty much.

 

[Spirer]

Have you guys heard of "The Chronicles of Spellborn"?

It seems REALLY interesting and it will be out soon. I reckon it's definitely worth a look.

And regarding the grind. The grind is not the game, the grind is a very poor replacement for actual content or good game mechanics. I work 40+ hours a week, I don't want a game that also requires 40+ hours a week to play.

I used to play WoW (2 years), but when I finally realized it was just "another job" I handed in my resignation

I hate the time=power >> skill. Make the game good enough so that people with a life can compete and I will play it.

 

[Morton]

Does anyone know any great MMO real time strategy game similar to Warcraft 3 or Command & Conquer? The only decent MMORTSG I know is Navy Field. Well, the developers actually call it MMO real time tactical simulation game but for me it is close enough to real time strategy. It's a great game but I'd love to try some other similar MMO.

 

[robwright]

Have you tried Tabula Rasa? And if so what did you think of it? Travis reviewed it and he liked it pretty much.

I played a demo but haven't experienced the full version yet. Travis hogged it for weeks for his review. I plan on trying out in the near future...