Video Game Piracy is not a problem, its a Symptom of a Problem (LONG)

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martin0642

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From the perspective of an engineer who works in related areas and a gamer from birth, people seem to forget that although the original consoles were dedicated hardware of their own design, most consoles are now really just rebranded PC hardware.

As such, its trivial to port currently in most cases, and even if piracy was rampant, you'd still gain more profit by taking the time to slap on an install-shield wizard. It's not a major problem if X amount of people steal it, because its not your sole revenue stream but just one of many. This is also brought up a lot if you watch G4TV when they do a review; they usually complain that it’s a straight port with no new Easter eggs or features.

Next there is the hardware development cycle, which since the PC platform is continually evolving, it produces incrementally better titles as time goes on, and consoles are on 5+ year cycles. As games on the PC turn to vertex, ray tracing, or other non polygon based rendering schemes, consoles will follow along with PDAs and other new media. The nature of this style of rendering is inherently much more platform independent as its less dependent on APIs and trickery to make images and just uses brute processing power to determine the location of each pixel (with Physics), instead of defining three points and just connecting the dots, or applying a texture.

There is actually an upper limit to realism, and as a well done Hollywood movie shows, it’s a limit we're already bumping up against. The vector processors in the PS3 are similar to designs from SSE and others used in Cray systems. It might sound silly at first, but there is actually a point in this technology when a level of realism is reached that after which further refinement is beyond human perception and the product development cycle will have to change to some degree. I think more robust AIs will be one of the few things which will really be able to take advantage of the types of speeds we will see from 2020 and beyond. Many Hollywood movies are already at this point for a lot of people who don’t look close, and this technology trickles down at a predictable rate. I think realistically we reach a point where we need a better man-machine interface to take advantage of this level of realism.

I'd say if anything that it’s not the PC that’s dead as a platform, it’s that there will be no difference between the two. They are already similar in more ways than they are different, they just come bundled with a D-Pad and have Hamachi pre-installed in the form of X-Box Live. It’s devolved into a silly fanboy rant at this point I think. In many ways, Media Center PCs are consoles, you can even add a D-Pad.
The PC can be turned into a console, and vice versa (Linux on the PS3 Anyone). Consoles now have browsers, and an adapter (that I love) for the PS3 that lets me use a keyboard because thats my control method of choice. I hate D-Pads. Let the flames begin.

Take a look at the progress of the Mac platform and ask yourself if it’s because it became more or less compatible with entrenched technology.

On the issue of piracy, I think this whole subject is just a media talking point because there wasn't another cute blond Caucasian girl abducted today for them to scare people over. Its basic folly to compare software spread to physical theft, because in all cases the costs are imagined. People just like big numbers, so they guesstimate that 100,000 people stole a game that retails for $50 USD then come to the conclusion that they somehow lost 50 Million dollars, even though software has no replication cost and the developer does not even pay for bandwidth.

In most cases, piracy made easier by trying to force DRM down people throats, which just entices hackers to take them out as a personal challenge, and it just makes everyone else angry. At the right price point, you would be amazed at how many people are willing to pay for games as entertainment.

The companies just want the types of cash flow they had from the 90s when the net was a lot slower and people had to pay 50 bucks to use their $3000 machines. But that times over, and it’s never coming back. And it does not need to, because with the spread of the internet, the number of potential customers has also jumped sky high. Charge 50,000 people $50 or 250,000 people $10, it’s all the same and the net allows this.

In the case of business software, like Office 2007, Microsoft WANTS people to steal it, which is why they translated it into Chinese with basically no copy protection. A defacto monopoly is easier if you give it away to people free at home and everyone uses it and becomes familiar, then charge businesses who have a financial incentive to not risk lawsuits and fines for theft. You never wondered why its harder to get a hacked steam account, for gaming, than it is to steal a WHOLE OPERATING SYSTEM like Vista, which is in a much better position to detect and thwart hacks and cracks because it has kernel level access and internet connectivity?

They want Asia to make it the standard everyone is used to, so that later on when people start a business or “go legit” they’ll already be hooked on their brand and go with what their used to, and it will be the standard, not OpenOffice. There is no lost income, because they were never going to buy it in the first place. The same goes for games, as the developers gain reputations and loyalty, and when pirates grow up, many pride themselves in paying for games from labels they used to steal from because they weren’t able to afford it. Look at Starcraft.

Also, subscription models work. There is not a lot of press about World of Warcraft being pirated, and since network connections are everywhere now, theres no reason they cant use a “Steam” or EA-Link type setup which requires a constantly on net connection, and bans pirated keys instantly and refuses to play offline, or takes it a step further by having certain points in the game retrieve content from servers in order to progress further.

Target market is also the last problem for PC-Only development. If you go out to make the L33t35t Haxx0r3d game with all the bells and whistles, the only people with the hardware to actually play that are the ones who also know how to steal it, and after paying for all that hardware they might be poor. So sure, sales are poor cause the game only runs on a water-cooled quad-sli Alienware system, who happened to be owned by script kiddies worldwide, is there a surprise here?

I am not trying to defend piracy or any type of theft. I’m not trying to make a moral point, but a realistic one that has a REAL solution that does not go along these lines: We’re legally in the right, and we’re going to make the world comply. Well first off you can’t make the world do anything, its going to go the path of least resistance no matter what. For people, that’s stealing things that are way too expensive for them personally (or taking illegal drugs because they can’t afford real professional care for whatever ails them, mentally or otherwise, because it’s so damn expensive).

For businesses, who earn a lot more, the least resistance is paying up the dough to ensure future revenue without lawsuits. The industry right now is indignant, and reacting like an angry shop-keep chasing off little kids. It’s acting in PRINCIPAL instead of INTELLIGENTLY and trying to apply physical security measures to digital content.

The best example is Brazil, with AIDS medication. It was way too expensive, and Big Pharma was sucking up donation money from the whole world to keep a few people alive. So the Government of Brazil said: Screw you. We don’t care if you invented it, we know you own it, but we aren’t willing to stand by and let people die just so some fat white American can have 5 billion instead of 4. So they setup their own drug labs and started making the same thing for like 65 cents a person, down from $580. Of course, Pharma sued, but no one was willing to do anything about it.

Its hard to have sympathy for greed vs. life even if the law is on the side of greed. Were they supposed to condemn millions to death? I realize comparing software piracy to medication piracy might sound odd at first, but it really boils down to the same reason in the end, it just has more urgency. Pharma finally decided to just sell it to them cheap, and it still makes a profit. The old business model is dead and unenforceable for non-tangible media which is why the music industry is trying to use scare tactics and go after a bunch of college kids and soccer moms rather than rollout a real solution. I think game developers know this but the old men in suits don’t.

This is a cost/effort ratio. If games were 10 bucks, it would not be worth the time to steal them and use only hacked servers, and people worldwide can afford them more easily. This is a Global connected world now, Americo-Centrism is a fatal error for tech businesses. There are more people outside of America than in it, as the Music industry is learning.

By the way it took 10 years for them to admit defeat, but they are finally selling DRM free songs from Amazon and soon iTunes. They realized it’s impossible to stop theft, but it’s also not needed. You don’t need to stop it; you need to make it less cost effective at which point it becomes a non-issue. People don’t steal trucks from the post office because they have a distinctive look, and there’s no market for them. They realized that with internet connectivity, people would rather buy a song with their phone for 99 cents, then have that new song auto-synch with their iPod, PC, Console, and MySpace page. Hell the effort of just moving all that around is not worth 99 cents to me, and I don’t think I am alone in that.

So I hope you made it this far, I tried to keep it interesting. I tried to just write a letter about how the whole PC-Console thing is just the old business model reaching out in a death grasp before the gap between PC and console disappeared forever, but as you can tell I was unable to do so. I fully expect people on both sides to bring it, and this is just my attempt to spread some education (as I see it) around. I fully expect people to stick this post in their sites and niggle over minor details and thus miss the point itself, so if you have a comment about something like that then fine, you’re so witty and I totally suck for having typed almost 2000 words and having the audacity to be imperfect or just nor care enough to read it 50 times to try and punk-proof it. But if there are any real contentions or counter-arguments of value, then flame on :)

PS: For further inspired discourse, for better or worse, I suggest people visit http://www.ted.com

They put up the archives last year, and it’s been a real treat to listen in on the leaders themselves, and how they are working to make the world a better place. The New Technology section is really quite interesting, as the experts themselves in nearly all areas put fourth their ideas on how to make the future a better place and what they are trying to do about it.
 

robwright

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Martin, I respect your opinion, but I take exception with your analogy above. There is a fundamental flaw in comparing software piracy with AIDS medication piracy, and it's very simple: with the latter, people's lives are at stake. With the former, we're dealing with an entertainment product and nothing more. Games aren't food or medicine. They're not critical to a person's survival. They're for fun. You're not entitled to playing games. Please, let's not lose sight of this crucial difference.

I can't stand when people who pirate games turn the argument into something akin to standing up to the man or an organized protest against corporate greed. Please. Get real. You want to play the game but you have no money, or you simply don't want to spend that much money on a game, and you've suddenly realized just how easy it is to download the content without paying for it. So you pirate the game and engage in a crime of convenience and laziness, but a crime nonetheless. If you want to take on the increasingly high prices of games, start a petition and wait for titles to hit the $20 bargain bin.
 

martin0642

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I agree 100% that comparing famine/disease against recreation is unreasonable, but I wasn't drawing a comparison between the relative values of each, but instead of the market forces involved. Believe me I did pause for a moment to try and find an example that would be more tame, but I was unable to and had hoped I had done a good enough job so the reader would see where I was trying to make the comparison, it would seem I was less than successful and regret if anyone was offended.

So though most people feel that life and death triumphs over patents, the issue itself is the same. There is a product that is desired, it comes at a set rate. Some can afford it, and some cant. The rate of piracy will make itself evident based on a ratio of the cost vs. income of the bulk of interested parties and the ease of replication and distribution. I'm not saying its right, I'm saying that thats humans in a nut shell and its never going to change.

I agree with you totally on the second point, I also find it distasteful when people liken themselves to Che Guevara and act as if their petty theft is somehow justified because "the man" is working against us, but that wasn't what I was drilling down to. My point is practicality, not perfect world scenarios cause frankly we don't live in one and I don't think its right around the corner. I truly believe that capitalism, when applied to certain markets, works wonders. This is why we have football players making 60 million and firefighters making 50 thousand, and I think thats fine if thats how people want to spend their money.

I just think its silly when people, who already make a very comfy living, spout off about how much richer that "ought" to be based of phantom math. Sure, maybe if the magical faeries slapped the hands of every potential pirate they'd turn a few extra bucks, but barring that its just not going to happen until they change their business model to make the market work for them and not against them. The current approach is the standard model used by physical retailers for thousands of years, and for that it works great. But this is digital, not physical, and though the moral implications might be the same, the practical implications are not. The model is based on this idealistic notion of how people "should" behave in a perfect world, which we don't live in, on products which cant cheaply be replicated, but software can.

The impetus for the article actually was that I see so many people talking about it, and I really think its a non-issue. It's unpreventable on every platform, no matter what, and its never going to change because of the mathematics involved. One could wonder if the companies spend more trying to stop piracy than are really lost in true dollars, because most pirates are poor in the first place or they would not waste time stealing it in the first place.

So instead of the whining about right and wrong that I see all over the net, I thought I might I might actually give something different a go, an actual solution and discussion of the issue. The "Its wrong, dont do it" logic, which is real popular with the religious crowd, has no real value in a discussion about piracy. No one cares, because its intangible. Ideals always lose when reality drives home. Thus as before, does anyone really think that Mr. Super-Rig is going to wait till it hits the bargain bin before he buys it? No he's not, and never will, so instead of a circular argument with Socrates and Kant over the morality of it, I think its far more productive to remove the motivation to steal it in the first place.

Thus I point to Amazon, Valve, and even EA (Though Link Sucks). It seems like people are starting to get it to some degree, as if the younger people have finally gotten through to the captains of industry and hit them with the obvious stick. An interesting note however, you might notice the price still hasn't changed. I find that odd. So I download the game and play it, and its 50 bucks still. So no CD, no manual, no box, no shipping costs, no Wal-Mart royalties, and its still 50 bucks. Even Amazon has the sense to release books on the Kindle for $9.99. Hardbacks might be $25, and paperbacks $15, but they have the sense to pass on the savings to some degree and as an owner I appreciate that.

I should note that there is a category of person, I've known many as such, that pirate everything. The Kid. You know him, both parents work, yet still only have the purchasing power of a single man in 1910. Thats if he has both parents. He's smart, he likes computers, he hates school cause its boring, he's a latchkey kid with a lot of alone time and no siblings. Maybe he's in New York, and maybe he's in Africa, he has time, and maybe someday when he's making his own way, and games are reasonably priced for the global market that we already have, he'll pay 10 bucks (Or his parents, cause $10 is a long way from $50) cause its faster than cracking it and the online delivery means he never has to worry about losing it or scratching a disk or losing a key. That kid usually grows up and maintains his passion for games through life. I know games led me into software development and engineering, and boredom is a devastating blow for the mind while its developing. I see where their coming from is all, and it'll never change.

So like I said, I think that once the gaming industry takes its cue from the Music industry and Amazon and moves away from its thousand year old sales scheme and comes into the present where real business solutions and practicality reign over useless notions of unenforceable morality the industry will really take off and real profits will roll in worldwide. I think gaming is the future for everyone, as the Wii as shown for traditional non-gamers. There is much room for expansion, especially as tech develops, and it is going to a good clip. So RobWright I appreciate your candor and hope my reply is satisfactory without raising too many new issues :)
 

infornography42

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Similar things have been said before by Brad Wardell and others. Though I think $10 is optimistic to the point of folly. As it is $20 is a steal.

Cutting out DRM and pricing games at $40 should be the next step. If profits maintain or increase then maybe try decreasing it by $5 for every couple of releases and stop at the most profitable point. Bereft of statistics, it is possible $50 is that sweet spot, but I have my doubts.

One thing to be aware of however, is the fact that people are stupid. People who have the money will look at something costing $40 and a similar product costing $50 and assume that the one costing $50 is better and worth more because it is more expensive. This trend is played out over and over again in stores and dealerships across the globe. Video games are slightly different because of the prehype for them and the fact that games are fundamentally different from one another in noticeably tangible ways. Speculation of intangible worth has less to do with perceived value, but until someone really starts experimenting in the market, it will be difficult to determine.
 
How about a shop owner that has sooo many customers he cant keep his eye on all of them, and yet his wares are all out on the counter, within reach of each customer? Thats the new business model, and some people will reach out and take what they want, cause they know the store owner wont see them. Sure the store owner will see and catch some, but few, given the numbers. Now, hows that for trying to mix a digital with a physical scenario? heheh But it still doesnt make it right either way. I agree, they need to develope a better , wiser business model
 

physx7

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Video Game Piracy is not a problem, its a Symptom of a Problem

w25a.jpg


Here we go once again......

Did this comment contribute to the thread?
 

martin0642

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I think your right about the lack of statistics, but there are things on Steam that are in the $10 range, and though that might be optimistic now, the spread of cheap tech across the world and the rising tide of newly industrialized nations brings a lot of new consumers to the table. Take the Kindle as an example, if you look at Amazon there are books on sale for 32 cents.

Then there is this: http://milliondollarhomepage.com
$1 per pixel, cheap. He made his million, I wish I'd have thought of it first.

And finally, Sins of a Solar Empire, I found this for $34 at some discount sites and $37 at Newegg

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832796001&nm_mc=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Software+-+PC+Games-_-Stardock-_-32796001

According to NPD, the games was 2nd in sales in February:
http://www.strategyinformer.com/news/638/sins-of-a-solar-empire-selling-well-at-retail

This game, by Stardock, wasn't expensive to make. It didint take 10 years. It does run on most systems, and though I haven't played it, by most accounts its not bad.

When I see examples such as these, along with all the Livestrong bracelets and "Support the Troops" stickers, games on cell phones and PDAs, people using Verizon phones to identify songs playing nearby and buying them on the spot, it seems to indicate to me that broadening your target market by lowering the price and ease/speed of purchase yields much more in the way of monetary gain than simply raising the price.

Hollywood is taking notice as well, I have heard rumblings of carriers such a Comcast talking to studios about direct-to-home releases of blockbuster films that are in theaters. The rise of home theater, combined with the remote-purchase systems in digital boxes, make this easily feasible. The movie theater industry is apparently ticked at the concept, because they like selling popcorn for $10 each. I think this would also have a major calming effect on piracy of film, because it would be much easier and people will pay for ease of use.

Of course, Comcast couldn't give a hoot about Theaters, they just want the cash stream, and as such might offer a direct HDTV viewing of something in a theater for $40, which might sound expensive but I bet if I invite 3 pals over and we grab a Pony Keg, it'd still be cheaper than the theater, and the bathrooms closer, and we can eat whatever we want.

The thing that I think really holds back many companies is an unrealistic expectation of instant compensation and old business models mixed with the bloat of growing to big and grabbing CEOs from other industries who are beholden only to shareholders profits and dont care about games for the sake of the games themselves.

They keep making part 2, and 3 and 16 of tired franchises and buying out the competition and then pumping out more clones. Remember 3DFX? If they had bought NVidia out they might still be around, and it seems like EA is trying to just suck up every franchise possible to keep yanking the re-run slot machine handle.

Remember when Blizzard was putting out tons of games, mostly good? Now they have a WoW cashcow, and what have they done lately, other than close off other Blizzard divisions and make Starcraft 2? It's not because they cant afford creative projects or original work.

Everyone wants to be a millionaire, right now. Exxon cries about OPEC, gouges Americans, then posts record profits. All of the sudden we have people going around siphoning gas out of peoples tanks, because suddenly its economically worth the risk. Is it legal? No. But when a country in the middle east puts a dam on the Tigris river, then charges countries downstream and rations water to them, that is legal even though the waters been flowing naturally and free for thousands of years, but it sure does have a patina of douchebaggery about it, does it not?

It's also not right to jack the price up for no good reason which drives people to that extreme either, but its legal which is good enough for some close-minded types but I'm just not prepared to accept that legality is in any way a good basis for morality. It's supposed to be the other way around, but when special-interest groups start lobbying with big money to buy their own laws and politicians, it quickly turns into have and have-nots, and everyone but that 1% loses out.

Though the gaming industry is not quite such an oligarchy as the fuel industry, the number of independent labels is shrinking. Personally I don't want to be playing "Sims 34" unless I get to personally jack in and wreak havoc on my Sims in full Matrix-Style glory.

The US housing bubble and the credit blowup is what happens when they try to create money by allowing people to buy what they cant afford, its a short term gain and the players cut and run and leave a mess for everyone else later on. It's a good things its real hard to steal houses, or you can imagine what might occur.

Social security, health care, and the environment are also taking this route. Us richer now, problems come later, someone else can fix it, not my problem. It's all legal, and its wrong, which will be self evident in 50 years unless there are some major changes, and by then it might be too late to do anything about it because the people in the best position to enact change are in the here and now, and they don't care.

So as odd as it might seem, I think these examples point to expansion of market base by easing pricing and releasing on as many platforms as possible will bring them the most long term profit and product diversity, and maximize customer loyalty and satisfaction. You can gouge people once and make like a bandit, or milk them and live like kings (and they'll be happy too). Ibet people would subscribe to an all you can eat current-release system for new and old games, even if it was $50 bucks a month. I'd drop HBO and Cinimax for that.

I think people are basically honest, and they don't want to steal. But I also think they want to live their life, and maybe even enjoy it a little before they go, even if their financial means are limited. Issues like Piracy, Physical Theft, Chemical abuse and other issues are just barometers of their perspective markets of the ability to afford legitimate commerce verses the simplicity and risk of more underhanded methods.

I want to see the games industry flourish and really take advantage of all the extra processing power around, and I want to see them get just rewards for doing so. Thats why I'd like to see some quality $10 dollar games.

PS: More Orange Cats please, pref with cute messages taped to them.

PSS: Piracy is illegal, and BAD! Mmm-Kay? Good.
 

Heyyou27

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Did not read. It's great if you don't believe the asking price for games is fair. I tried to go to a local car dealership and only wanted to pay $5,000 for a new Porsche because that's all I believe it's worth. Obviously, they refused so I assume that makes it okay for me to steal it, right?
 

Oh Snap

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So do you object to people with no money pirating games? By your logic of piracy hurting the industry, then it should be alright for someone with no money to simply download a pirated version of a game (without sharing it to others, just downloading it for themself from say, a newsgroup) and then play it. Right? They have no money to purchase the game in the first place, so it comes down to a matter of whether they're playing the game or they're not, the company that makes the game makes $0 from them.
 

robwright

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Yes, you're right -- people with no money should be able to get games for free. That's exactly what I wrote. After all, playing PC or video games is basically an inalienable right, and if you don't have the money to pay for them, then they should be free -- like food stamps or welfare checks.
 

Oh Snap

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Hold on now Rob, is your objection to piracy really about "hurting" the game companies?

Plus, I should point out that your analogy is flawed. Welfare checks and food stamps cost taxpayers money, the only cost associated with my example would be the pennies worth of bandwidth.
 

Oh Snap

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- Copyright infringement != Stealing
- A digital copy of a game costs the developers nothing and if the user of the copy had never intended to buy the game from the developer, it deprives the developer of no more money than if the digital copy didn't exist.
- Most games are pretty crappy
- You can't return PC games in almost all circumstances
- People don't like to get burned by companies that release said **** games.
- Some people just prefer to not to pay $50 for 5 hours worth of entertainment

Happy?
 

Alex The PC Gamer

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I hate this thread, because once again, it is about moral theories and from one culture to the next, their perspectives are very different.

With regards to the piracy issues, it is a problem. It is one thing to serve the customer with the motive of "The customer is always right"... as long as they provide something in return (profit). I love how some people think they have the right to play for free because they do not have the money to buy them. Guess what, videogames are a privilege and just like vehicles, entertainment systems and computers, they have a price tag. No money, no candy. Crimes will not be tolerated simply because you have less income; it applies to everyone, the rich and the poor. Besides, if you can afford a PC for gaming, you can afford buying games. In fact, publishing companies have a right to charge a fee as they registered a product with the Intellectual Property Office.

Given that it is becoming a serious issue, videogame publishers need to adapt to the fact that piracy is ever more accessible (oh, and they know about the issue!). That being said, I do NOT believe that DRM is a good solution, but it still is a reasonable attempt to cut down on piracy. I do believe that publishers will need to think this issue and exercise good business decisions to overcome such a problem. Governments should also get involved with this matter as they may be able to contribute to a solution for this problem (see below).

Although I am not a member of the videogame industry, I respect the field. In fact, I am a gamer myself when I have free time. I am a graduate student with an MBA in E-Commerce and have bachelor in finance; so I know exactly where Amazon and iTunes come from and what it takes to manage such services. Corporations are powerful but you guys need to understand that the board of directors have a lot of pressure when it comes to implementing *new* ideas or practices to resolve piracy issues; on one hand from the consumer, and on the other hand from the shareholders.

I reside in Ottawa (capital of Canada) and needless to say that I have friends in politics. Not that I would not care otherwise but I also have friends in the videogame industry in Canada, specifically in Montreal and Vancouver. We have proposed to the Government of Canada (Department of CRTC), who regulates internet providers, to implement a new bill in the House of Common.

The bill, in a nut shell, would allow internet providers to provide various categories of internet service. It would encourage providers to set a limit on downloadable content. We believe that the average user will not need more than *40 gigs - edited* of download bandwidth for each month. Internet providers would also have other VIP or Commercial packages who would be a little more expensive, but would provide an unlimited download bandwidth or similar. This would impact the overall bandwidth, which would lower maintenance fees for the internet providers (hence, they would support that bill). It would also have an impact on the consumer where if you can afford the VIP or commercial package, then you most likely can afford the videogames (as the fees for commercial bandwidth would be more expensive than purchasing the actual game). Hence, it would create an impact on the level of piracy (at least in Canada). There is much more to this proposal but these are the highlights with regards to the Industry.

This model is nothing new and as been implemented in some countries already. I just wish the US Government would implement a similar bill. However, there are limitations to this model. This bill will not solve all piracy issues...such as music and other smaller files. It would only help with regards to pirated movies, games, and software. Another limitation to this bill is that if you were to use services like STEAM to download games legally, you would still have to purchase a descent package with higher bandwidth limit (maybe not now but soon as publishers create games that can only fit on Blue-ray disks).

Nota: This bill wasn't intended to solve piracy, but for the purpose of balancing fees for internet providers and stabilizing its infrastructure. However, it should have an impact on E-Piracy.

*Like I said, it's a proposal and will be discussed at Parliament but as not been implemented yet...and maybe never. But with regards to E-Piracy, this could be a part of the solution.*
 

raptorxt

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holy ****
that was a crap load to read

i began to think half way through this thread that this should be placed in the the OTHER category in the forums. we went from piracy to medicine to gas prices to river water to the housing situation to welfare checks

but on topic
i would absolutely love for games to cost 25 instead of 50. i have bought nearly all my games, excluding quake 3 and the matrix (received those as gifts), and spent 50 on all of them except doom 3 (spent 55).

and i disagree completely with ROB, if he is being serious, nobody should get to play games absolutely free. i dont care who the hell you are. if i have to pay 50 and you nothing thats ****

that is like saying i should get to go to a theme park for free if i couldnt pay the entrance fee.

and the WEB neutrality is becoming an issue now if what Alex the Pc gamer is saying is true. why would you limit me to 4gb? what if i like to download music or large video files? do i get an expansion in bandwidth or do i suffer with everybody else?

if you really wanted to stop pirating you make an example of a large group of people.
EXAMPLE: the government catches 500 people that have pirated games and fines them $100,000 each. that would scare a hell of a lot of people. and if the government added in some jail time too, that would scare even more people. Pirated gaming would experience exponential decay then. less and less people would pirate games.

and HEYYOU
no, it doesnt make it alright to steal the porsche

sorry for any mispellings or incorrect grammar. i really couldn't give a ****
 

infornography42

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? wow raptorxt you are really REALLY bad at detecting sarcasm. Seriously. Both of the people you called out for their statements were clearly making hyperbole based sarcastic responses to other people. Hell Rob is probably the most anti-piracy person on these boards.

Me, personally, I do not think that anyone has anything that resembles a right to obtain any kind of entertainment media for free. However, people are going to do it. We need to just get over that fact and instead try to find constructive ways to drive sales.

The problem with the idea of the government making examples of people is that they have no jurisdiction to do so. It is not a criminal violation. It is a civil violation. That makes it entirely the responsibility of the copyright holder to prosecute and follow up on the crime. Now those people could try to do something, but it would be exceptionally difficult to prove fault in most cases and very costly to find them in the first place.

Also I think that the majority of the damage that piracy does to the industry is entirely self inflicted. When piracy was less of an issue it was just kids bootlegging software for each other. Serial codes mostly put an end to this "casual copying" that was common. Then there were the poor college students and such that found themselves with copious free time, decent new computers, cheap internet access, and very little money. This is the crowd that made up the majority of pirates for a long time and they generally bought all the games they could honestly afford to buy, but that wasn't many.

As DRM became a bigger and bigger pain in the arse these college pirates found it the path of least resistance to continue their piratey ways even after they got jobs and grew up. People who had never pirated before were being directed to pirate web sites in order to find no CD cracks in order to bypass the DRM that was making their game not work. Then there are all the misguided bastards who think that they are striking back at "the man" by stealing all his software.

Basically before DRM there was little impetus to pirate if you had the money to buy. With DRM there were increasingly compelling reasons to pirate instead of buying.

Finally software developers are starting to realize that they dug their own grave and are backing up a bit and rethinking their strategies. Hopefully they will be able to turn around this mess they made into good PR.
 

exfileme

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That's a very good point. Who hasn't considered looking for a No-CD crack because you've installed the game on a laptop and don't want to take the disk with you. That doesn't mean you're a pirate; it means you're protecting the investment. Isn't there some kind of law that says the consumer can make a backup of said property anyway?
 

tkpb938

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The problem with piracy in general is that the only way to stop it is through an invasion of privacy that I find unacceptable.
 

cafuddled

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The problem with piracy is that at the moment it would cost more to eradicate than it does having it there. Just wait till there is a new method of stopping piracy that actually works or when piracy costs the companies more money than a solution.

If you can come up with an ingénues way stopping piracy with games you would become a very rich man, almost instantly at the expense of a load of under aged kids and tight people adults.
 

infornography42

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The question though is, how many honest customers will you turn away in the course of eradicating piracy. There pretty much is no way to restrict piracy without restricting honest users as well. Anything that would eradicate piracy would probably be seen as overly draconian and piss off the educated customers, and might possibly be seen as just buggier than an antbed or frustratingly annoying to the uneducated customers.

The pill that most of the industry has yet to swallow is that the best answer is to add minimal protection to avoid casual copying and just accept that piracy is going to happen. As far as anyone can tell all of the millions of dollars going into anti-piracy have not only failed to stop it, but have barely even slowed it down. If anything they have simply made the problem worse by making piracy the more attractive option.

I am not excusing the behavior, but neither do I believe it is practical or even possible to eliminate the problem. And even if it were, you would probably lose more customers in the long run than you would have lost due to piracy.
 

SnareSpectre

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This particular subject intrigues me, and I have to give props to martin0642 - you are the reason I actually registered here on this site JUST SO I could post a comment on this forum. I should probably start by explaining my position on pirating. I "pirate" games all the time, in fact my hard-drive is filled with pirated copies of games. Sure, I'm a poor college student, but that is no real excuse for my awful, awful behavior. For me, this is how it works - I see a game that looks interesting, even if it's only the slightest bit, and I will pirate it to try it out. My money is tight right now, so this helps me weed out games that I would prefer to not pay $50 for. I'll even be totally honest...sometimes I play games all the way through, and then do not purchase them afterwards because I don't feel that they warrant the hefty price tag. Most of the time this is simply because I'll be bored and need something to do, and end up making my through a game. With that being said, I would NEVER have purchased these games I've pirated...whether or not pirating was an option. If torrent sites didn't exist, I'd simply not pay and not play. I know a lot of people claim this, and for most I would argue it is not true; however, in my case it's the real deal - in fact, one of the games I figured I'd try out for the fun of it was Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War, and it turns out the game is awesome and now I will probably go buy it so I can play it online. In my situation torrent sites work as a sort of marketing strategy for developers. The point all this is trying to make is this: I can only speak for myself and not others, but if pirating was NOT an option available to me, game companies would not make a dime more. Even in the past, illegally downloading music has led to me buy albums. I used Napster back in the day on my 56k modem to download and try out Metallica songs, and that led me to go out and purchase about 4 of their albums. Back in the day.

Now with all this having been said (man, that would be REALLY hard to translate into another language, with all the verb tenses...sorry, off-topic), and I know this might sound hypocritical of me, but I am very much against piracy when it hurts the companies. I am a business major, so most of the time I view situations from the side of the developers, not the losers who think about how "The Man" is oppressing them or whatever. I understand how these things work, and why companies hate piracy and so forth. On the other hand, I also admire people like that guy who worked to develop "The Witcher" who realize that a lot of times the numbers are bloated, and that many times when people pirate games they probably would not have purchased the game anyway. In my case, I certainly will purchase games like Starcraft 2, because I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it will be near-perfect, and I would like to play it online. Perhaps this is a case that argues in favor of the people who cry, "Make the game good, and people will buy it!"

Yes, you're right -- people with no money should be able to get games for free. That's exactly what I wrote. After all, playing PC or video games is basically an inalienable right, and if you don't have the money to pay for them, then they should be free -- like food stamps or welfare checks.

On a final note, RobWright - your sense of humor is what keeps me coming back every week to watch Second Take. I thank you very much for your (and Ben's) commentary on whatever the topic may be, as I usually find it very funny and informative. However, one must admit that even your humor is not as funny as posters like Oh Snap being unable to recognize when you are being very sarcastic, as it gave me quite a laugh when he took that particular post about inalienable rights seriously.
 

robwright

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:D


Hold on now Rob, is your objection to piracy really about "hurting" the game companies?
Plus, I should point out that your analogy is flawed. Welfare checks and food stamps cost taxpayers money, the only cost associated with my example would be the pennies worth of bandwidth.

As others have pointed out, I was joking about the foodstamps bit. But yes, my objection is that piracy hurts the game companies. And I don't put much stock into argument that most pirates would never pay for the games anyway so the devs/pubs aren't losing any money. Pirates say they would never pay for these games because they DON'T have to pay for them -- they've found a very convenient way to get around that and have therefore convinced themselves that they're not really stealing. Plus, people can always convince themselves that a particular game isn't worth their money -- they'll play through 60 hours of Mass Effect and then turn around and say, oh that sucked. Really? Well...why did you play it for 60 freakin' hours? Isn't that worth something? And furthermore, should piracy only be allowed for cheap people who claim they'd never pay for game anyway? What about people with money who would pay for GTA 4?

- Copyright infringement != Stealing
- A digital copy of a game costs the developers nothing and if the user of the copy had never intended to buy the game from the developer, it deprives the developer of no more money than if the digital copy didn't exist.
- Most games are pretty crappy
- You can't return PC games in almost all circumstances
- People don't like to get burned by companies that release said **** games.
- Some people just prefer to not to pay $50 for 5 hours worth of entertainment

- Piracy = stealing
- Many pirates convince themselves that all games suck and aren't worth the money even though they pirate tons of games and play them for hours.
- Many games are crappy, but even great games get pirated (hellow Call of Duty 4)
- Some people like to try "demos" before they buy a PC game, or perhaps rent a console game. Or -- and this is totally radical thought -- wait 6-12 months for a price drop and pickup up for $20.
- Some developers/pubs don't like to get burned by watching half their audience steal their work, hence they go with DRM and copy protection measures.
- Some people who think that games are crappy and over-priced simply decide NOT TO PLAY THE FREAKIN' GAMES if they're so bad and such a waste of time.
 

infornography42

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"- Some people like to try "demos" before they buy a PC game, or perhaps rent a console game. Or -- and this is totally radical thought -- wait 6-12 months for a price drop and pickup up for $20. "

Wow this is optimistic. Most games that are truly good don't go down in price anywhere near that quickly. Any game that hits $20 in only 6 months is probably absolute crap. There are the few exceptions and diamonds in the rough such as Beyond Good and Evil, Psychonauts, and Tribes Vengeance, but generally the reason games get discounted that fast is because they are pure crap.

Now that brings up a different point. You could wait 6 months. Read all the reviews and play the demo and figure out from there if you want to spend the price that the game is now going for. If the game is still going for $40 to $50 then chances are really good that it is worth the money. If it is going for less then check out the reviews. Often really good games will plummet in price because they either have incompetent packaging or marketing, or they are a niche market game.

I will hem and haw for months at a time over most games that come out, and usually I just never bother with them. There are a few games that I won't wait on however and those I preorder. Things like Mass Effect, Starcraft 2, Fallout 3 and the like.

I am also living well below my means so I have the disposable income to spare on these things. I do admit that in my college years when my time was freer and my budget was tighter, I pirated a lot of games. I would generally try to buy a legit copy for the truly great titles, but I simply could not afford all the games that deserved to be purchased. My only excuse was I was young and foolish then. On the other hand, that behavior is what lead to me being a lifelong gamer. Had I not pirated through the tight college years I would probably not be a hardcore gamer now and I would be spending significantly less of my disposable income on new games.

That isn't an excuse for the behavior, but it is an indication that maybe, just maybe, a reasonable level of piracy is not a bad thing. It is out of control right now, but if the publishers would open up to the ideas of Brad Wardell and others, maybe we could get things tamed back down to a reasonable level again.
 

Oh Snap

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Do I have to explain this to you again? Do you seriously not see a difference between physically TAKING a game off the shelf versus making a copy of a game on a hard drive? Stealing a game from a shelf 1) Gives you said game for free and most importantly 2) PREVENTS THE COMPANY FROM SELLING THAT SAME COPY TO SOMEONE ELSE, something that they will have to pay for to replace. Copying a game gives you the game for free, BUT you didn't just steal something from the developer.

If you use a raygun that duplicates matter on my TV set, and now you have your own TV just like mine, I'm not out a **** TV set. Holy ****, we had a whole thread about this before and you're still spewing the same ignorant equivocations as you were before.
 
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