Alright, I would LOVE to discuss this with some people who know something about the current state of the industry. We all know piracy is a problem, but that's not what I'm here to discuss. Has anyone checked out gamesforwindows.com?
Here's my take on it. PC gaming has always had console ports. Historically, very few ports were considered good games. Games typically do better if they're designed for their platform (correct me if I'm wrong). Now we have this "Games for Windows" that appeared about the same time I started hearing all the "PC gaming is dying" talk. Fact is, PC gaming sales are in the billions, and they went up from last year. This GFW seems to me like a port-machine for Xbox 360. It also requires compatibility with the 360 controller.
Now, people that read these forums and I know that PC games look a hell of a lot better than their console versions (cept Bioshock for SOME reason). Joe Consumer, on the other hand, has a choice to make. He sees "Games for Windows" and could assume that it's a PC game and anything that doesn't have that logo must not be authentic. That limits his picks to GFW games. J.C. may not be tech savvy but he isn't stupid. He weighs his options. He looks at a game for both PC and Xbox 360, let's say Overlord, or Bioshock, doesn't matter. Both say you can use a controller, however J.C. realizes he would be more comfortable sitting on the couch. Looking at the graphics, J.C. doesn't see much of a difference. Then J.C. looks at the system requirements and finds it would be cheaper to buy an Xbox360 AND a low end HDTV than it would be to upgrade his current system.
It could be argued that without GFW we wouldn't have seen games like Bioshock or Overlord on PC and that would have hurt more. I don't agree. I think because of the ports being so similar and the massive amount of marketing going into them, would-be PC gamers are turning to Xbox (or ps3). I think all the 'PC gaming is dying' talk started when GFW started. The comparisons were too hard to make until GFW turned PC gaming into a more or less XBox emulation platform. I can see the ideas for it, make one game and sell it on more than your own platform, make extra $$. If the plan was to get people to buy two copies of these games, I don't see that happening.
Clearly, the main reason people are PC gamers in the first place is either for the controls, the graphics, or the ability to play online with a massive group of people. If everything is the same, the Xbox gets the advantage for being a couch/TV system.
Again I agree piracy is a problem and it's turning developers away from PC gaming, but nobody so far has even looked into this other issue. I really am looking for a meaningful discussion here, if you're gonna flame me keep it out of the thread thx.
ughhh no, GFW main purpose is not to be a port machine for xb360...
The purpose of it is to set an industry standard. You buy a game for xbox 360 or PS3 you go home unwrap it, pop it in and start playing.
That's more or less what the purpose is, to set a standard set of hardware specs for the games to run on.
So basically if your PC can run windows vista, you can run any game with the GFW logo on it. They want to make it as convienant to install and play the games as possible, not everyone like us hardcore PC gamers want to play with settings, tweak things etc..
Don't get me wrong I have no doubt in my mind that M$ has alterior motives and a hidden agenda in all this, but that's the simple fact of it.
It had nothing to do with piracy, although a problem of course.. The main goal was to make it as easy as possible for joe consumer to purchase a game and start playing it as hassle free as possible on his somewhat basic hardware and not have to upgrade everytime a game somes out.
Same idea behind the PC Gaming Alliance, they want to set a standard and help slowdown the hardware arms race between companies, that in turn make your 6 month old video card look like a pos.
They as well want to set a standard, but trying to work with the main companies too, for instance intel... and their onboard graphics, which is absolute crap. Then joe consumer thinks he can buy this budget gaming system with onboard graphics then go play the latest games... well clearly we all know that aint going to work...
Like mentioned in another thread I think Steam (valve) has a really big opportunity here. I hope that they can make it work and jump in it, which they prob are but who knows. If they can make steam the super friendly game consultant, then they will gain the respect of gamers and grab a HUGE marketshare...
For instance like discussed before, if they could tell you (which they can cuz steam is pretty intrusive in respect to analyizing your PC specs) how well a game will run before you even buy it, well that will be an amazing feature and no need for GFW now. SURE some people won't buy a game because they can't play it on their hardware but at least they didnt have to purchase the game for 50$ to find out.
This way they avoid people bashing and bad mouth devs,publishers etc.. and are happy at least they knew before they paid for it.. it's the best of both worlds, hardcore gamers will be fine as they are, and the not so hardcore who aren't going to update their pc once a year, let alone a couple times like the hardcore won't be left paying for games they can't play.
They will at least know where they stand and what it will take to let them play this game. VIA updateing hardware if they want to play a game badly enough.
There is alot more to all this but I think that GFW is a croc for the most part and a failure. Only because M$ has done squat all with it, such a big build up and announcments etc.. then nothing...
anyways, this topic can get thrown around back and forth alot... it sure is the hot one at the moment...
like many things, this is an issue of interconnected relations. to play the newest, most graphically-intense games for PC, your machine has to be suitably high-end to give the user a smooth presentation (i.e. no lag, good framerates, pseudo-realistic graphics). this either requires john doe to buy a "high end" pre-built system (i.e. dell, etc.) or invest a substantial amount of time and money into building a custom system on his own.
enter current console hardware. while not being upgradable (for the most part), consoles have an edge in presenting the latest games in that their developers write the game around the console's capabilities. this is not to say that console games don't lag, but that's another story.
ever notice how PC gamers are looked at far differently than console gamers? that's not an accident. generating mass appeal for consoles means console developers/publishers have to make console gamers non-pariahs. look at the amount of commercials for console games vs. PC games, and the types of commercials for each. on a related note (with a nod to the "couch gaming" idea), console gaming is seen as much more of a socially involving activity, since many games are designed for 2 or more players on the same console. kinda hard to play much of anything split-screen on a PC nowadays.
so, while the general public knows little to nothing about building a gaming machine or even what RAM is, they can look at a game released on both xbox 360 and PC and make the "obvious" choice as a consumer: the console is a one-time investment, it's more socially acceptable to play, and the game doesn't need to be installed or patched (usually). simplicity, as far as john doe is concerned. this is exact mindset console games target.
relating more directly to the GFW branding: the more I see it, the more I think it's just another way microsoft is trying to force the conversion to vista. no, GFW games aren't vista-only, but judging by their list of supposed benefits, not much else stands out. "tested rigorously?" does that mean the game has no bugs and never needs to be patched? "easy to play?" (which translates to "easy to install/uninstall, especially under vista" ) are they really trying to tell us that previous games weren't easy enough to install or uninstall? in my opinion, GFW is the same thing as "the way it's meant to be played": nothing more than marketing.
Now we have this "Games for Windows" that appeared about the same time I started hearing all the "PC gaming is dying" talk.
People have been saying PC gaming is dying much longer than when GFW first appeared. GFW is more like a very late response to years of people saying PC gaming is dying. You can debate whether GFW is good for PC gaming or not (I think it is), but the trend that PC gaming has been going in started years before GFW was even thought of.
ever notice how PC gamers are looked at far differently than console gamers? that's not an accident. generating mass appeal for consoles means console developers/publishers have to make console gamers non-pariahs. look at the amount of commercials for console games vs. PC games, and the types of commercials for each. on a related note (with a nod to the "couch gaming" idea), console gaming is seen as much more of a socially involving activity, since many games are designed for 2 or more players on the same console. kinda hard to play much of anything split-screen on a PC nowadays.
This may also have to do with the fact that PC gamers usually are in front of their PC's not a TV... wasted money.
When they game is for all platforms well then it's just a bonus, but you didn't see Crysis ads on television did you?
well at least I didn't but then again, i fall into the PC gamer in front of my pc, not a tv.
PC Gaming isn't dying.
Steam just crossed the 15 million user mark in March with a total , total sales of PC Games in the last 3 months out paced all the console sales combined, and Microsoft just announced their vision for Games for Windows including addressing some confusion on Windows Live and how it's a free service for Windows Vista owners.
The facts are Windows is Bill Gates baby. This was the baby that made him who he is today. He isn't going to let it die. X-box was something to help them get to where they wanted Windows to be which is a multi-functional OS that could compete with anything and everything. People talk about what a crap product Vista is but these people haven't delved deep into the OS. Microsoft Synch was developed for Vista and then ported to cars, Windows Live was beta and made primarily for Vista (that GfW has way more use than what people thought), and then there is the phasing out of 16 bit crappy installers and drivers.
Now we look at what consoles bring for Gamers and it's little improvement on the past but PC Gaming is always expanding and growing. PC Games have driven the tech that makes consoles able to exist in their current form as it is today. Without PC Games the Console Market would still be at the Sega Genesis Level. We may hate the fact that every year we have to buy the newest and best Graphics card to continue playing the games we love but it's this ever expanding growth that has driven our technological advances. Without this all Gaming would stagnate and die.
Then we look at Sony's Gaming Department and it's inability to get out of the Red, Microsoft has stated publicly that they take a loss on every console that is bought, and the only company to actually report a profit for their console business is Nintendo.
The biggest problem with PC Gaming was Piracy but even that is going to be addressed as the PC Gaming Alliance begins to take shape. Who is heading the PC Gaming Alliance? Microsoft.
This is it for Consoles. They had their day but it's over. They have hit a mark where every Console produces a negative profit. Sony will port over to their own brand of Computers running ReactOS or Linux with Wine, Nintendo will continue on their mark of producing a Console for Family oriented and Group play, and X-box will fade into Windows.
For PC Gaming to die then PC's would have to die and that would mean Windows would have to die. That's not going to happen. The only reason people think Vista is a crap OS is that only a few people have actually delved deep enough into it to see all the features it does have. With SSD's coming down in price the 15 second from turn on to full function is here. It takes 30 seconds to install Vista from start to finish with a SSD. That's installing.
PC Gaming is just getting started. It's going to get pretty interesting in the next ten years.
There were Crysis TV ads. I remember seeing them on both G4 and FX. However between the release of the demo and the full game being such flops it's probably more likely that EA pulled the ads to cut their losses on a game that just wasn't going to catch on. WoW ads are on all the time though as are The Sims for PC only games. Not a lot of other major titles are PC only anymore though.
Message edited by purplerat on 05-08-2008 at 07:17:34 PM
This is it for Consoles. They had their day but it's over.
hard to believe, considering the recent sales of gta 4, halo 3, CoD 4, etc. both microsoft and sony have stated that their consoles are on a 5-year cycle. over? I think we're far from that. both PC gaming and console gaming are coming into their own, but ultimately it'll be sales that determine who remains years down the line.
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a mobo, a cpu, some ram, a vid card, a sound card, some hard drives, some fans, and a case.
Unless Sony can show a positive influx of cash from Playstation Sales it should be over but I just don't see it happening for them. Right now they are loosing around a $100.00 per sale of Console. Microsoft's X-Box 360 has already lost Billions for Microsoft and they were loosing a little over $100.00 per Console before the recent price drop. I can't even imagine the loss they are taking with X-Box 360 right now but if they have played it smart they will use it as a Tax Right Off and use their Gaming Department to show plus positive figures. Microsoft unlike Sony though has one of the best Gaming Departments in the Industry while Sony has one of the worst. I think Microsoft was looking at the bigger picture years ago and done a pretty good job of destroying their main OS Gaming competition. Nintendo was a suprise but I think Microsoft will let them be. There is a need for consoles and Nintendo does a good job in filling in that niche.
the reason pc gaming is dying is because for the average gamer doesnt want to spend two hundred quid on a graphics card every six months and probabarly wouldnt know how to install it anyway, pc gaming is too complex and expensive for most (i think).
the other reason is that the kind of guy who knows how to do the techie stuff involved in building and maintaining a gaming rig also knows where to get his games for free... dont tell me you dont you liars!
i was thinking, how could the pc gaming industry fight piracy more effectively and make it easier for the average user?
well what about games for windows introducing a piece of software that essensialy turns almost ANY pc into a gaming console, install the software and run the games straight from the disk as consoles do? granted it would have to run on a wide range of systems(even ones with intergrated graphics, eeek!) and this will be the biggest hurdle i think. but if there was something like that which updated itself automatically, adjusted graphics properties automaticaly, had a universial controller that just plugged straight into usb with out drivers or time consuming button mapping needed i think they would be able to sell more.
the adition of the universial controller, specialy designed for the platform would also enable them to perhaps put some kind of security chip in the controller so games will not run unless you buy the controller,
I think I'd just quit playing games if they did something like that.
yea i mean hav that simple plaform open for the ametures who dont like messing with pcs and obvously there will still be the market of power hungry games that demand high speed pcs to run but look beautifull. i would also be gutted if they introduced that security system i mentioned, but it would prolly cut down on piracy, look at the professional audio editing programs like cubase 4, you have to buy a security dongle for the software to work, cubase 4 hasnt been cracked yet so maybe this would be worth is to stop piracy and thats a good thing? (for the people making and sellin games obviously) were not gunna benifit from the meney they make straight away, but if pc gaming becomes more profitable we would have big titles like gta iv running on our machines right now..... probabarly
Message edited by psymanproductions on 05-09-2008 at 12:22:15 AM
How about a compromise? Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo keep making their consoles with their fixed specs, but have them basically be mini PCs (pretty much there right now) and have all games developers create a single version of each game that you could use in any one of the consoles or PC. The games would all be compatible with the consoles, with the software detecting which one is running it and adjusting the settings to run optimally on that console or, if it's a PC, allow the user to customise as they do now. That could also work for activating/deactivating console/PC specific features, but in the end, we'd all get basically the same game on the same disk for the same price. The consoles could still differentiate themselves from each other with different controllers/graphics/online capabilities/etc and anyone who wants to put a bit more time, money and effort into their gaming can stick with their PCs.
Is that just a crazy dream? An unreachable gaming eutopia? I hope not! Thinking about it right now, it's utterly baffling to me that we don't already have universal games like this. Look at the way you watch movies at home. From a cheapo £50 player, to an expensive £xxxx full home entertainment system, they all take the same discs and the experience is pretty much the same (with varying quality though, obviously), but that's how it should be with games. I'm tired of needing several systems to play a few games when any of them are capabable of running them, just because some company bought the exclusive rights. It's time games were made for gamers, not just to make money from them!
How about a compromise? Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo keep making their consoles with their fixed specs, but have them basically be mini PCs (pretty much there right now) and have all games developers create a single version of each game that you could use in any one of the consoles or PC. The games would all be compatible with the consoles, with the software detecting which one is running it and adjusting the settings to run optimally on that console or, if it's a PC, allow the user to customise as they do now. That could also work for activating/deactivating console/PC specific features, but in the end, we'd all get basically the same game on the same disk for the same price. The consoles could still differentiate themselves from each other with different controllers/graphics/online capabilities/etc and anyone who wants to put a bit more time, money and effort into their gaming can stick with their PCs.
Is that just a crazy dream? An unreachable gaming eutopia? I hope not! Thinking about it right now, it's utterly baffling to me that we don't already have universal games like this. Look at the way you watch movies at home. From a cheapo £50 player, to an expensive £xxxx full home entertainment system, they all take the same discs and the experience is pretty much the same (with varying quality though, obviously), but that's how it should be with games. I'm tired of needing several systems to play a few games when any of them are capabable of running them, just because some company bought the exclusive rights. It's time games were made for gamers, not just to make money from them!
that would be soo good for the consumer... i agree totaly with your idea, the only problem is that consoles like the ps3 would die, theres no way sony and nintendo would buy into thiis 'cos they'd loose money.
i think if this happened, and all games and consoles beame x86/x64 based so they could run the same disk on a pc as a console, sony for example would come up against competition from dell, hp, pretty much any one who can build a pc! right now i doubt sony and nintendo have the ability to build pc as cheap as a company like dell as thats all they specialise in.
but then again, as you said, sony and nintendo could capture a market by hiring IBM, nividia or amd/ati to build customised x86/x64 chips that exell in gaming... thats how they currently source their chips but i dont think they are x86/x64 based... so cant run windows and you cant run the games on a normal machine without a slow emulator. plus they av the option to develop better controll systems, networking abilities and even customised operating systems o run games faster and make the whle thing easier...
i dont know but it would be brill if that happened
It'd never happen though. Companies wouldn't work together like that because they couldn't count on revenue from exclusive titles like Halo. It'd be cool, but honestly corporations are far more concerned with their financial success than with the overall success of the industry. That's just the way it is.
well what about games for windows introducing a piece of software that essensialy turns almost ANY pc into a gaming console, install the software and run the games straight from the disk as consoles do? granted it would have to run on a wide range of systems(even ones with intergrated graphics, eeek!) and this will be the biggest hurdle i think. but if there was something like that which updated itself automatically, adjusted graphics properties automaticaly, had a universial controller that just plugged straight into usb with out drivers or time consuming button mapping needed i think they would be able to sell more.
the adition of the universial controller, specialy designed for the platform would also enable them to perhaps put some kind of security chip in the controller so games will not run unless you buy the controller,
theres my crazy idea anyway....
THIS.... This right here is why PC gaming is diminishing (I won't say dying because it isn't). Companies are becoming so obsessed with fighting piracy that they aren't noticing all of the honest gamers that they are alienating and thereby driving either to consoles or away from gaming altogether. DRM is the cause of the diminishing market.
Many people might not have even realized that this was the reason. Many console gamers I have talked to have quoted instability as the main reason why they left PC gaming for consoles. That instability was often caused by shoddy DRM. Now with the new versions of Securom rearing their ugly heads, more savvy PC gamers are starting to think the grass looks awfully green on the consoles these days.
And the most frustrating part is that the DRM isn't even doing any good. It is just outright absurd. Why do they spend so much money on alienating their audience for no discernible benefit?
